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jiroscop
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Post subject: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:13 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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After my 10 segment cheese I wanted to see if I cam make a 2 layer version of it. Ели is the name of the girl who chose the shape of pentagonal antiprism. This contains the entire 1 layer version inside as the first shell. I experimented with PLA plastic this time and result is not bad. The problem is the equatorial cut have to be very well aligned to turn so thats a problem I have to solve in the future. Due to some strange property of FDM printing I made it big to get cheaper to print. Edge length is 60 mm.
VIDEO
_________________ Actual Girls
Last edited by jiroscop on Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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QB_
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:21 pm
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Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:23 am
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Looks Good! How hard is it to solve and how do you solve it?
_________________ Previously posted as "Cuberific"
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:30 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Cuberific wrote:Looks Good! How hard is it to solve and how do you solve it?
I haven't solved it yet(I just finished building it). But I presume it will be more intuitive then the 1 layer version because of 1 more degree of freedom. You can try it on pCubes. Open Gregs Prisminx Crystal and ignore the middle layer.
_________________ Actual Girls
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gal_eon
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:11 pm
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:16 am
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Great! I'm glad the puzzle turned out that well!
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QB_
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:21 pm
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Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:23 am
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In the video, I saw you only turned it so a triangle was opposite one of the trapezes, then turned it 180 degree. If you turn it so a trapeze is opposite another trapeze, could you make one of the 180 degree turns?
_________________ Previously posted as "Cuberific"
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:50 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Cuberific wrote:In the video, I saw you only turned it so a triangle was opposite one of the trapezes, then turned it 180 degree. If you turn it so a trapeze is opposite another trapeze, could you make one of the 180 degree turns?
No, you can't make that move. The puzzle should be in it's pentagonal antiprism shape to work.
Actually, I explored your idea, but it turned out to not be possible or at least I can't do it. You can see what I did here - http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopi ... =9&t=31022 near the end of the topic
Maybe you can give your opinion on how this can be done. A Knucklehead mech maybe?
_________________ Actual Girls
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Brandon Enright
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:36 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Website: http://www.brandonenright.net
Location: Bay Area, California
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:06 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Cool . You got a lot of new shapes there. I have to explore your app for my next project.
_________________ Actual Girls
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Andreas Nortmann
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:24 pm
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:03 am
Location: Koblenz, Germany
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The romanized version of ЕЛИ is ELI, true?
You guessed it: I need it for the museum.
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:08 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Andreas Nortmann wrote:The romanized version of ЕЛИ is ELI, true?
You guessed it: I need it for the museum.
Yes! ELI
I guess you will also need the weight - 320 grams
But surprise - print cost - 35 euros O.0
I guess it will be a usefull stat.
_________________ Actual Girls
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:31 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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JackRTully
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:49 pm
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:01 am
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My design has added functionality, however you have an actual physical puzzle so who is to say who's is better (Thanks for the acknowledgement though )
_________________ My YouTube, including a FF Siamese 2x2x2 Walkthrough
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:01 am
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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What is this functionality? Is it the shapeshifting so it can be solved by blind people?
_________________ Actual Girls
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JackRTully
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:28 am
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:01 am
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:40 am
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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JackRTully wrote:The faces can turn in increments of 36 degrees instead of 72 degrees.
That is a compleatly different thing then. We should see it in action.
_________________ Actual Girls
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Andreas Nortmann
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:45 pm
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:03 am
Location: Koblenz, Germany
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jiroscop wrote:I guess you will also need the weight - 320 grams
Thank you again. After you mentioned the size I thought you don't have a scale.
JackRTully wrote:however you have an actual physical puzzle so who is to say who's is better
Just to remind everybody: Only the first physical sample counts for the museum.
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kastellorizo
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:10 pm
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:31 am
Website: http://www.houlis.com
Location: Greece, Australia, Thailand, India, Singapore.
YouTube: kastellorizo
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:03 am
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Can my puzzle be classified as fully functional if it can not turn on every apparent cut line like JackRTully's puzzle is?
And an idea for you JackRTully. A shape preserving solid for your mechanism is the decagonal dipyramid and it looks nice too
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Last edited by jiroscop on Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jeffery Mewtamer
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:00 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:18 am
Website: http://sightless-sanctuary.net
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Is a half-turn cube fully functional? I ask, because this puzzle sounds like it is to the 10-slice, 2-layer cheese as the half-turn cube is to the normal cube, or per haps more accurately, as the half-turn 2*2*2 would be to the 4-slice, 2-layer cheese.
Granted, this is a case of a physical puzzle with such a, for lack of a better word, restriction being made before the unrestricted version. I'm not sure that's been done before. Though, the restriction also makes the puzzle doctrinaire instead of shape-shifting, and I'm not sure we've ever had a pentagonal anti-prism as the shape of a doctrinaire puzzle before.
And now, I kind of want a restricted UFO shapemodded into an Octahedron(view as a trigonal anti-prism) and a restricted Masterball shapedmodded to a square anti-prism(or maybe a snub square anti prism).
_________________ I'm blind, unbothered by humor that pokes fun at blindness, and always willing to share my experiences with sighted people in hopes of making the world a little more knowledgeable.
I now have a website: Sightless-Sanctuary.net
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:05 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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You are right Jeffery. I didn't find any shape preserving pentagonal or square antiprisms in the museum. Triangualar is a special case
As for your design chalange for triangular and square versions it will be interesting for me to try and do them.
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grigr
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:56 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm
Website: http://www.grigorusha.com
Location: Russia
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grigr
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:00 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm
Website: http://www.grigorusha.com
Location: Russia
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:47 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Thanks, grigr!
And a quick render of the triangular one
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Last edited by jiroscop on Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:21 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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I got some progress in the solving of this puzzle. I realized it's a cuboid style puzzle and adapted the algorithms that I use to move around the corners of a 3x3x2. And since the pieces have orbits and the 2 piece types don't mix with each other - it's 2 puzzles in 1 and you solve them separately.
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grigr
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:33 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm
Website: http://www.grigorusha.com
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:52 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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grigr wrote:jiroscop wrote:
And a quick render of the triangular one
Very Interest
I cracked the mechanism of a square version also(hard geometry). Maybe that should be my next project
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gal_eon
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:41 pm
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:16 am
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I like the 8-segment square antipsrim. Is it also shape-preserving?
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:00 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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gal_eon wrote:I like the 8-segment square antipsrim. Is it also shape-preserving?
I decided I would make it shapeshifting. And now I know how thanks to JackRTully
That way I will have 2 puzzles in 1 and I don't have to print again the non restricted version. If I want I can preserve the shape very easily just by aligning the triangles in every equator move.
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Brandon Enright
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:21 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Website: http://www.brandonenright.net
Location: Bay Area, California
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I don't follow the discussion of shape-preserving here. As far as I can tell, none of these antiprism designs would be shape preserving. The axis geometry for these is that of a face-turning prism but the shape geometry is that of an antiprism.
The turning the horizontal cut (dihedral cut) by (1/(2*n)) doesn't preserve shape. Neither does a 180 degree turn of one of the one of the prism's side-face cuts.
You'd have to shape-mod these into either a n-gon prism or an n-gon bipyramid to preserve shape.
_________________ Twisty Renderer -- Jaap's Spheres with POV-Ray
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grigr
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:28 pm
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm
Website: http://www.grigorusha.com
Location: Russia
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:00 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Brandon, the puzzle in the original post is shape preserving. That was a mistake in the design. I wanted something like the cheese block but the way I cut the outside pieces I made them two different types
Next I wanted a shape that better suits this mechanism and found out that a pentagonal antiprism would not change its shape if I make it like this.
It is a two layer version of Gregs Prisminx Crystal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh1IX5zklXA
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:19 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Ohh I see Brandon was talking about the square version. Yes that is impossible preserve shape I didn't even tested it. I tested the triangular and it was working so I presumed the same for the square. I feel stupid
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grigr
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:57 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm
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grigr
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:58 am
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm
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Jeffery Mewtamer
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:09 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:18 am
Website: http://sightless-sanctuary.net
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Thinking about it some, for the antiprism series mentioned her:
For n odd:
Lateral cuts go through a vertex/edge-midpoint line on both bases and thus preserve the shape.
The geometry is simple aside from the equatorial cut.
For n even:
Lateral cuts go through vertex/vertex lines on one base and edge-midpoint/edge-midpoint lines on the other base, and thus cause shape shifting.
The geometry is complex.
Does this offer any insight into why some cheeses are simple while others are complex?
But something else I realized:
For two layer simple cheeses, an unrestricted equatorial cut makes the geometry complex(the simplest mechanism I know of involves a hidden middle layer and fusing one exterior piece to the middle layer), but restricting the equatorial cut so it preserves the shape of an anti-prism actually keeps the geometry simple! Just take the single layer cheese and cut it in half with a circular dovetail around the equator.
For the benefit of anyone who missed the simple vs complex discussion from a few months ago:
These are two, somewhat agreed on, categories for dividing deep cut puzzles based on mechanism.
Simple geometries can be built with simple dovetail mechanisms.
Complex geometries, if built with simple dovetails either result in male-male collisions blocking desired moves or female-female collisions causing the puzzle to fall apart. Some require a hidden middle layer or skirting rails while others require impractical numbers of shells.
That description is probably oversimplified and I probably got some things wrong(more knowledgeable people, please correct me), but that should give you the gist.
_________________ I'm blind, unbothered by humor that pokes fun at blindness, and always willing to share my experiences with sighted people in hopes of making the world a little more knowledgeable.
I now have a website: Sightless-Sanctuary.net
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:35 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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Yes, I did read the simple vs complex discussion. Fun fact - my pentagonal antiprism uses 5 screws, but if I want to build the square version it will use 8 screws.
Here is a clearer video of the available moves and how the shape is preserved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiJ6dXHxk6A
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:18 pm
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jiroscop
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Post subject: Re: "ЕЛИ" Antiprism
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:26 am
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:47 am
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I saw an interest in mechanism renders so I made some of the Antiprism. You can also see why the puzzle was restricted in only non-shapeshifting moves
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