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 Post subject: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:30 pm 
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The past weeks the Felice ball puzzle made its appearance with a big competition
happening in Western Australia.

http://simplypuzzling.com.au/
http://www.novafm.com.au/competition/puzzle

I am not sure if this will work, but the fact that the University (which is walking distance
from where I used to stay in Perth) is involved into this, is something very positive.

:)


Pantazis


PS. I will not comment about it, as for decades, I mainly prefer my twisty puzzles
to retain their form, and of course, to be as symmetric as possible.

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Last edited by kastellorizo on Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:37 pm 
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It looks like a Rubik's Cube shape-mod. Is that right? Have I missed anything?

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:40 pm 
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Brandon Enright wrote:
It looks like a Rubik's Cube shape-mod. Is that right? Have I missed anything?


My guess is that you are 100% right. But I will refrain from making comments.
After all, I have many close friends working at that Uni!

:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:13 pm 
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Looks like it has cuts at slightly varying depths, and starts as something like a 4x4x3. Maybe it should be viewed as a bandaged 7x7x7, or something like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:26 pm 
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Bram wrote:
Looks like it has cuts at slightly varying depths, and starts as something like a 4x4x3. Maybe it should be viewed as a bandaged 7x7x7, or something like that.
I think it would just be a shape shifting 333, look at the target audience.. footy fans. Not that footy isn't big in WA.. pretty much everybody is a fan. But the target audience is the GP not the TP. :) I've ordered one anyway, mainly because I follow AFL.

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PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:35 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
I've ordered one anyway, mainly because I follow AFL.


Closet Carlton fan here... :twisted:

Hard to tell from the video, as it doesn't show much detail, but I also thought 3x3 shapemod, but then wondered if it was a 3x3 Camouflage cube shapemod, as it seems to turn in a kind of offset way.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:09 pm 
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Bram could be right. I would expect and hope that this is more than a 3x3x3 shape mod,
as those exist for ages. If it is indeed a 3x3x3 shape mod it would be very disappointing.

I plan to order one too, but the release date is a bit later, and I am not even sure where
I would be at the time!

By the way, I will go for one of each! (and it is football, not soccer! :lol: :P )


Pantazis


PS. Go Eagles!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:12 pm 
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For some reason it looks like it has more cuts than the 3x3 would have. Could be wrong though, the images aren't that clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:44 pm 
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I didn't see a video, only the images. I'll be really impressed and stoked if it's more than a 333 shape shifter, a 333 Camouflage cube would be awesome. I got the 2 pack `soccer` ball too :P :lol: . My Dad was a Carlton fan, I'm a Swans fan, mainly because I wanted to follow my local team, but I really do admire them as a club too. AFL gets a mention across the pond does it Marty?

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PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:59 am 
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It does occasionally, not much, but really my enjoyment stems from my sisters husband. They live in Melbourne, and he is a lifelong Carlton fan. They are both front row season ticket holders. :)

She used to go on about how good the sport was, and knowing that I love my sport, she got me to watch a few games online, and I pretty much became hooked, and watch every Blues game now. I even own a guernsey :)

I got to go to a couple of live games when I was over there last year which was cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:50 am 
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It looks like it might be like this?

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:32 am 
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1NSAN3 wrote:
It looks like it might be like this?
You had me worried there for a bit as I'm close to presenting the Neptune DoDep 3x3x3. It will actually be with me at the Phoenix Puzzle Party later this afternoon. But I watched the video and I'm pretty sure it is a shape mod of the Bump Cube. In other words a shape mode of a 3x3x3 with a none centered core. They basically even say this at 3:18 into the video.

Also since when does disassembled mean the same thing as scrambled? At 0:47 in the video he states "I have 3 disassembled Felice puzzles right here. I'm going to give you 20 minutes to see if you can solve them." My first thought was... finally a puzzle I can solve. I'm certain I could put that together in 20 minutes. I hope they supply the screw driver.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:00 pm 
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Rule No. 1 of AFL is that you do NOT talk about AFL!

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:11 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Rule No. 1 of AFL is that you do NOT talk about AFL!

:?: And AFL is ..? Australian Football League?

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:59 pm 
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1NSAN3 wrote:
:?: And AFL is ..? Australian Football League?


Yes. (Personally though, I would call it the Hand Ovoid League, together with the Gridiron)

:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:18 pm 
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This video shows the puzzle more closely, and even has a sequence that shows how they got from a Rubik's Cube to this puzzle by cutting it down. Unfortunately, it really does look like it is just a 3x3 shape mod. I guess the inventors are counting on the football/soccer connection to the puzzle is what will make it sell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj4WpHKKcUI

The channel also has this video, an ad for the puzzle. I assume most people on here would have to disagree with the claim that it is 1000 times harder than ANY puzzle. (Have they even seen a Petaminx? :lol: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_51BoI-MpU

I do hope this puzzle takes off, as it would be beneficial to the twisty puzzling community as a whole, but it is a little disappointing it is not a completely new innovation (if it indeed turns out to be a 3x3 shape mod).


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:24 pm 
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This is not the first time we've seen such wild claims :lol:

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:27 pm 
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In the video they mentioned that it's patented, so I looked it up. Patent is here:

https://www.google.com/patents/EP1328325B1

It isn't a simple shape mod. It has some elements like a half turn only cube, like I guessed above. I'm to exactly sure how many different depths it uses and how they're distributed around the puzzle though. The patent, naturally, is written in patentese, and the only understandable part of the whole thing is the diagrams.


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:37 pm 
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Bram wrote:
It isn't a simple shape mod. It has some elements like a half turn only cube, like I guessed above. I'm to exactly sure how many different depths it uses and how they're distributed around the puzzle though. The patent, naturally, is written in patentese, and the only understandable part of the whole thing is the diagrams.

I'm certainly not very experienced in puzzle design, but to me that patent makes it still look like a 3x3 shape mod. Its odd that they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the original Rubik's Cube puzzle as being "bigger" "better" and "harder" than it when the design seems to draw from it a lot (the core, the hooks on the edges and corners).


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:30 pm 
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JKeaton wrote:
Bram wrote:
It isn't a simple shape mod. It has some elements like a half turn only cube, like I guessed above. I'm to exactly sure how many different depths it uses and how they're distributed around the puzzle though. The patent, naturally, is written in patentese, and the only understandable part of the whole thing is the diagrams.

I'm certainly not very experienced in puzzle design, but to me that patent makes it still look like a 3x3 shape mod. Its odd that they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the original Rubik's Cube puzzle as being "bigger" "better" and "harder" than it when the design seems to draw from it a lot (the core, the hooks on the edges and corners).


Look carefully at image 3. The top and bottom faces are blocked from moving by the slices not quite lining up.


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:36 pm 
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Bram wrote:
JKeaton wrote:
Bram wrote:
It isn't a simple shape mod. It has some elements like a half turn only cube, like I guessed above. I'm to exactly sure how many different depths it uses and how they're distributed around the puzzle though. The patent, naturally, is written in patentese, and the only understandable part of the whole thing is the diagrams.

I'm certainly not very experienced in puzzle design, but to me that patent makes it still look like a 3x3 shape mod. Its odd that they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the original Rubik's Cube puzzle as being "bigger" "better" and "harder" than it when the design seems to draw from it a lot (the core, the hooks on the edges and corners).


Look carefully at image 3. The top and bottom faces are blocked from moving by the slices not quite lining up.


Good catch. I didn't look very carefully at that one, as I mostly was looking at the core and pieces photos. And as I said, I'm not very experienced in puzzle mechanisms :oops: . I might just have to get one of these and see for myself now.


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:05 pm 
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I really think it is a shape mod of a 3x3. just like the apple, heart, star 3x3s.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Bram wrote:
JKeaton wrote:
Bram wrote:
It isn't a simple shape mod. It has some elements like a half turn only cube, like I guessed above. I'm to exactly sure how many different depths it uses and how they're distributed around the puzzle though. The patent, naturally, is written in patentese, and the only understandable part of the whole thing is the diagrams.

I'm certainly not very experienced in puzzle design, but to me that patent makes it still look like a 3x3 shape mod. Its odd that they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the original Rubik's Cube puzzle as being "bigger" "better" and "harder" than it when the design seems to draw from it a lot (the core, the hooks on the edges and corners).


Look carefully at image 3. The top and bottom faces are blocked from moving by the slices not quite lining up.


It looked to me like just an issue with the images orientation. None of the videos seem to show this blocking of rotation either. I am wondering if it is just a poorly oriented image of an off center core?


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:22 am 
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I bring to the Twisty Court circumstantial evidence picture 0007:
Attachment:
imgf0007[1].png
imgf0007[1].png [ 32.87 KiB | Viewed 1662 times ]

How can they make this patent?
In all seriousness?? :P
Did a bump cube never exist as prior work?
How long has Rubik's been selling the Mirror Block?
This patent is not worth.. very much.

I still bought one.. I like AFL. :lol:

And BTW Kelvin.. I was always told that Rule #1 was to kick the ball through the 2 big sticks.. it's not such a hard game :wink:

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:27 am 
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Burgo wrote:
I bring to the Twisty Court circumstantial evidence picture 0007:
Attachment:
imgf0007[1].png

How can they make this patent?
In all seriousness?? :P
Did a bump cube never exist as prior work?
How long has Rubik's been selling the Mirror Block?
This patent is not worth.. very much.

I still bought one.. I like AFL. :lol:



Shhh if thats the case then its a KO and we can't talk about it anymore :D


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:33 am 
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In AFL it's called a `bump` or a `hip and shoulder` not a `knock off` :? :lol:

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PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:49 am 
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Bram wrote:
Look carefully at image 3. The top and bottom faces are blocked from moving by the slices not quite lining up.

This might be a case of very poor illustrations rather than actual mechanism features. Look at Fig 1. Clearly the slice is blocked:
Attachment:
pat_fig1_circ.png
pat_fig1_circ.png [ 30.75 KiB | Viewed 1638 times ]


But in figure 3 they show the slice move:
Attachment:
pat_fig3_crop.png
pat_fig3_crop.png [ 27.86 KiB | Viewed 1638 times ]


I think what looks like intentional misalignment is actually just an artifact of terrible illustrations.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:53 am 
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OK, I'm interested (I must admit I didn't look at the dates, and assumed a more recent patent application).. where do you know them from? And, do you think it's possible to track down every 333 bump shape mod and see who was the first? It's probably time for someone with more knowledge of the past to step in here. Perhaps I will own the only non-KO bump cube :roll:

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PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:22 am 
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In claim 1 it's not clear what the word "selectively" is intended to mean. Perhaps they're using the word selectively to indicate that sometimes an axis is blocked? If so, the bump cube fails on claim 1 and definitely doesn't infringe.

Also, claims 11 and 12 are about a pattern or colors on the outside. The bump cube doesn't violate these claims.

All Rubik's Cube variations match both claims 13 and 14.

The only part of the patent claims that the Rubik's Cube doesn't match is in claim 1 "the common point (31) is eccentrically located with respect to the at least one symmetrical axis of the puzzle". Basically meaning the core is offset. The Rubik's Cube matches all subsequent claims.

I'm not a huge fan of patents in general but this one is total crap. You can't take an invention, change one element (offset core) and then call it a new invention worthy of a patent.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:32 am 
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There's no mechanism picture of any blocking. You'd think that if it was a major part of the patent, there'd be a drawing (there's a drawing of everything else).

The first instance of Hidetoshi's Mirror block I can find is in an entry into the IPP design competition in 2006 here: http://www.johnrausch.com/DesignCompeti ... ntries.htm

I can't believe they've paid the patent fees for 13 years and not noticed the Mirror Block? To me, that's insane.
Don't patent fees increase astronomically with time.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:44 am 
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I agree with Brandon, I think they'd have trouble enforcing it anyway. I do know that the price of keeping a patent active increases with time to encourage people to `make the thing` and not just `sit on the idea`.. How can they spend that money on this?

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Felice Ball
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 am 
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After reading the patent quite thoroughly I'm pretty sure it's just a bump cube.
The pictures are very poorly illustrated indeed, because where does the extra piece come from in fig 4?
Attachment:
File comment: Where does the extra slice come from?
Where does the extra slice come from.png
Where does the extra slice come from.png [ 105.74 KiB | Viewed 1537 times ]

I don't see this in any other picture.

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