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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:47 am 
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alacoume wrote:
Sure, but the beauty of twisty puzzle is in the fact that it has a 3D geometrical shape. If it's projected in a plane, why not, but for me, it lost the twisty puzzle definition and the magic.
I did not say that this puzzle is not difficult, because it looks so, and I am very impressed you and rline could have solved it; I am just saying that for me this is not a Rubik's cube I like to collect, see and scramble.
It is for me something like the 14-15 puzzle (sliding and solvable !)

I know what you mean. :) For me, I was uninterested in this one until I heard it was supposed to be difficult. :lol: And even as I was struggling through it, it was still very addictive. I guess it's made me slightly more inclined to look at similar puzzles in the future. But I think you're right: it's not a twisty puzzle in the sense I would normally think of.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:09 am 
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I understand your point rline. I was also tempted to buy it just for the challenge ! And I don't know, maybe I will dot it in the future, just to have my name in the solvers... Even, if for that, I have to struggle with the puzzle and with my wife who does not like listening me struggling with puzzle...


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:41 am 
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rline, do you think your Geranium method will generalize to the other two Geranium variants (pocket and mini)?

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
rline, do you think your Geranium method will generalize to the other two Geranium variants (pocket and mini)?

I don't really know Pete. I've looked at pictures of those two, but I haven't bought them. I have no plans to spend money on them at this stage. I guess the difference will be that the cycles generally involve 3 of the 5 circles, so that might be different.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:17 am 
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Well, for the mini geranium, it seems like the triangle piece in the middle is fixed with the crown shaped piece in the middle. They can't seem to move or seperate.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:26 am 
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:shock:

I haven't checked this post for 1.5 months and here's a solution! Thanks very much rline! I must admit I've been using your solutions on a heapload of the new puzzles coming out. Can't wait to finally solve this myself! :D

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:00 am 
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I am trying to solve it but is really really hard, I miss a single turn and I have to start all over,but I really enjoy it, what I am sure is that eventually I will be on the list!
For now I am figuring out easier puzzles like the mixups I got recently ;)

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:16 am 
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Eliasthecollector93 wrote:
I am trying to solve it but is really really hard, I miss a single turn and I have to start all over,but I really enjoy it, what I am sure is that eventually I will be on the list!

Yeah I know exactly what you mean. It definitely requires a major amount of concentration. I think Andrea said it was much harder than Eitan's Star, and I put them on the same level initially, but I think now on reflection I agree with her Sorry, Eitan...You'll need to come up with something harder. :lol: I worked out a solution for the geranium, and posted it, and then wondered how others would go with it. I know I've made the solution as simple as I could, but it's still such a nightmare puzzle that I had a feeling there wouldn't be a quick frenzy of solvers. I'm wondering whether Leslie has any plans to make other kinds of these 2D puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:24 pm 
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Woohoo! I finally got round to solving the Geranium. The documentation can be found here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/106651677@N08/sets/72157639840476893/

The "end game" was by far the most annoying and tedious bit. I ended up using 8 copies of rline's pure commutator to create a pure commutator of the central triangles. Only 256 moves to permute three small triangles!

I'm not sure I'm going to tackle this one again any time soon...

\Taus


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:44 pm 
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Taus wrote:
Woohoo! I finally got round to solving the Geranium. The documentation can be found here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/106651677@N08/sets/72157639840476893/

The "end game" was by far the most annoying and tedious bit. I ended up using 8 copies of rline's pure commutator to create a pure commutator of the central triangles. Only 256 moves to permute three small triangles!

I'm not sure I'm going to tackle this one again any time soon...

\Taus

Woo hoo indeed!!! Congratulations! It feels good knowing there's a third person in the club :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:33 pm 
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I finally found the time to do a solve on this fantastic puzzle. After unjumbling it and solving the stems/arches with "intuition", I just used commutators for the crowns, pentagons, and triangles in that order (probably the only logical solve order). The 3-cycle I found for the triangles is I believe just a variant of the one rline has already posted.

Setups for the little triangles were a little tricky at first, but I think once you get used to how the pieces can move around it's not too too difficult. This puzzle reminds me somewhat of my experiences solving Eric Vergo's Unbandaged Rhomdo, with the combination of jumbling and tricky setups for cycles.


The only thing I really have to add to the "solving knowledge" for this puzzle is a 2-gen 3-cycle for the little triangles, which I found so that I can solve the Mini Geranium puzzle (actually just a 2-circle subset of the full Geranium). Even though this algorithm is IMO terribly inefficient for the Geranium (78 moves instead of 32), others might find it useful to have as an option if it works better for setups... particularly since 2 of the triangles are the same color on a solved puzzle.

(R' L2' R L R' L' R L2) x3
(L R2 L' R' L R L' R2') x2
(R' L2' R L R' L' R L2) x3
(R2 L R' L' R L R2' L') x2
Attachment:
Triangle-2gen.png
Triangle-2gen.png [ 137.83 KiB | Viewed 1140 times ]


EDIT: Not sure how I didn't see this earlier, but the above 2-gen alg can be shortened to 57 moves, but this also changes the 3 triangles being cycled:
(R' L2' R L R' L' R L2) x3
(R2 L R' L' R')
(R' L2' R L R' L' R L2) x3
(R L R L' R2')
Attachment:
Triangle-3cycle-2gen-b.png
Triangle-3cycle-2gen-b.png [ 138.68 KiB | Viewed 1092 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:33 am 
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After seeing only a small part of the video and reading about it here on the Twistypuzzle forum, I decided to buy this puzzle. The puzzles I have right now aren't all that difficult, from which the hardest ones I got only take around 10-20 min tops (Latch Cube, 7x7x7 Cube, 4x4x4 super-cube shapemod; I know how to solve those, it just takes some time since I'm not a speed-cuber).

So because I needed something that will take some time to solve, I decided to buy this one. I've seen your entire video now and made notes on how to solve it, so now it's only waiting for the puzzle to arrive from hknowstore.

PS: I've got a question though. Since it requires a lot of moves to rotate pieces around, especially with the last few triangles, doesn't it also take a lot of moves to just scramble this puzzle properly? If so, I guess the scramble alone will take already around 10 min for me, and then I need to solve it in the next 2-3 hours xD

PSS: How did you ever came up with these formulas?! Very good job, I certainly would never be able to do such a thing. Keep up the good work!

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:25 am 
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Quuador wrote:
After seeing only a small part of the video ...

Well I'll assume you were talking to me, here. You didn't quote me directly but I think I'm the only one who's done a video on it, so I'll answer.

Quuador wrote:
PS: I've got a question though. Since it requires a lot of moves to rotate pieces around, especially with the last few triangles, doesn't it also take a lot of moves to just scramble this puzzle properly?

Yes, definitely. In a sense, to completely scramble it efficiently requires you to know how to re-solve things. I wasn't able to completely scramble it until I'd worked out how to solve each piece type. This is annoying feature of some puzzles. The cubic 3x3x6 was the same.

Quuador wrote:
PSS: How did you ever came up with these formulas?! Very good job, I certainly would never be able to do such a thing. Keep up the good work!

Thankyou. I came up with the algorithms by effectively blocking out everything else in my life for a week. Nothing else mattered. Work was a necessary distraction. I really think that if I'd just played with it a bit at a time, it wouldn't have worked. It's the sort of puzzle that requires some serious thought. I just kept trying and trying different sequences. Eventually I realised that there wouldn't be anything quick and that since the sequences would be long, I might as well make them at least logical. There was a lot of frustration involved, a lot of "this thing is unsolvable", followed by "I've scrambled it, so it must be possible to re-solve it", and quite a bit of desire to present a workable solution to the community. I don't think I'd be able to do it again now.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:19 am 
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rline wrote:
Quuador wrote:
After seeing only a small part of the video ...

Well I'll assume you were talking to me, here. You didn't quote me directly but I think I'm the only one who's done a video on it, so I'll answer.

Yep, were talking about you. Sorry I didn't mentioned your name, I also made this reply to the video itself.

rline wrote:
Quuador wrote:
PS: I've got a question though. Since it requires a lot of moves to rotate pieces around, especially with the last few triangles, doesn't it also take a lot of moves to just scramble this puzzle properly?

Yes, definitely. In a sense, to completely scramble it efficiently requires you to know how to re-solve things. I wasn't able to completely scramble it until I'd worked out how to solve each piece type. This is annoying feature of some puzzles. The cubic 3x3x6 was the same.

Ok, good to know. It's indeed a bit of annoying, mainly because I just like to scramble new puzzles when I get them, and then try to solve it with the help of a tutorial (or with some very easy puzzles, trying it myself, but the Geranium Puzzle is definitely not easy xD)
Let's see how it goes once I got it, by using the notes I made from your video. Hopefully I made the notes correctly. ;) Would be a bit of a bummer when I almost solved it (IF I almost solved it I mean.. :P) and then it turns out I incorrectly took over one of your formulas and need to start over again lol :lol:..

rline wrote:
Quuador wrote:
PSS: How did you ever came up with these formulas?! Very good job, I certainly would never be able to do such a thing. Keep up the good work!

Thankyou. I came up with the algorithms by effectively blocking out everything else in my life for a week. Nothing else mattered. Work was a necessary distraction. I really think that if I'd just played with it a bit at a time, it wouldn't have worked. It's the sort of puzzle that requires some serious thought. I just kept trying and trying different sequences. Eventually I realised that there wouldn't be anything quick and that since the sequences would be long, I might as well make them at least logical. There was a lot of frustration involved, a lot of "this thing is unsolvable", followed by "I've scrambled it, so it must be possible to re-solve it", and quite a bit of desire to present a workable solution to the community. I don't think I'd be able to do it again now.

Hmm, sleepless hours at night, distracted hours at work, etc. thinking about this puzzle, I presume?

Anyway, thanks for making the tutorial in the first place. If there wouldn't be any solutions available out there, I personally don't buy puzzles in the first place. I'm not good enough.. Too bad I still need to wait a couple of weeks before my package arrives here in The Netherlands from hknowstore.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:22 pm 
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So, my Geranium Puzzle arrived today. And I tried to scramble it, starting by using some of rline's algorithms randomly. But somewhere on the way I made a mistake.. My stams and arches are correct again, but how do I fix the two pentagon pieces marked with an X so every circle is turnable again, so I can continue scramble this thing :lol: :P



Thanks in advance for the response(s),

Greetz,
Quuador

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:26 pm 
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Quuador wrote:
So, my Geranium Puzzle arrived today. And I tried to scramble it, starting by using some of rline's algorithms randomly. But somewhere on the way I made a mistake.. My stams and arches are correct again, but how do I fix the two pentagon pieces marked with an X so every circle is turnable again, so I can continue scramble this thing :lol: :P



Thanks in advance for the response(s),

Greetz,
Quuador

Well, I don't have time now, but I will say "Welcome to the nightmare!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:33 am 
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rline wrote:
Quuador wrote:
So, my Geranium Puzzle arrived today. And I tried to scramble it, starting by using some of rline's algorithms randomly. But somewhere on the way I made a mistake.. My stams and arches are correct again, but how do I fix the two pentagon pieces marked with an X so every circle is turnable again, so I can continue scramble this thing :lol: :P



Thanks in advance for the response(s),

Greetz,
Quuador

Well, I don't have time now, but I will say "Welcome to the nightmare!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thnx lol :lol:. This puzzle is probably way over my head :oops:, but will try to scramble and solve it anyway. (Already having trouble fully scrambling it lol, now that the pentagons are out of place..)

I'll be back in a year or seven I think, when I finally scrambled and solved it. ;)

Greetz,
Quuador

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:59 pm 
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rline, what setup moves would you recommend here? I can't seem to find a good setup move to cycle three triangles around.. :(

I'm completely stuck at the moment. Almost there, yet still so far away..

Greetz,
Quuador

-------------------------

Edit: I tried some things myself, but I made a mistake along the way (once again), but this time the puzzle was completely scrambled again.. So I unscrewed the puzzle and tried to get back into the state above to try it again, when I noticed one of the outer triangles (the red one that should be a purple one on the bottom), so since I had it disassembled anyway, I just put it back into it's solved state.

Normally I would never do something like this, but this puzzle is (at the moment) just a bit too hard for me. I came quite far as you can see in the picture above, but right now I kinda gave up and have it in it's solved state on my shelf. I will definitely try to solve it again in the future, but it won't be in the near future for now. :roll:

Greetz,
Quuador

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:09 am 
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Quuador wrote:
Normally I would never do something like this, but this puzzle is (at the moment) just a bit too hard for me. I came quite far as you can see in the picture above, but right now I kinda gave up and have it in it's solved state on my shelf. I will definitely try to solve it again in the future, but it won't be in the near future for now. :roll:

I've been away for a few days so I've only had a chance to reply now, after your edit. Since it's back solved I won't have a look at that setup. However, I do want to reiterate to you and everyone else what a monster of a puzzle this is. It's so difficult. In fact, I would imagine the number of people who have actually solved it, with or without a tutorial, would probably be less than 10. That's a fair indication of its difficulty. I think the fact that you got as far as you did is amazing, and I'd encourage you to give it another go when you're ready, because the pain of solving it is worth it when it's solved!

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:55 am 
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rline wrote:
Quuador wrote:
Normally I would never do something like this, but this puzzle is (at the moment) just a bit too hard for me. I came quite far as you can see in the picture above, but right now I kinda gave up and have it in it's solved state on my shelf. I will definitely try to solve it again in the future, but it won't be in the near future for now. :roll:

I've been away for a few days so I've only had a chance to reply now, after your edit. Since it's back solved I won't have a look at that setup. However, I do want to reiterate to you and everyone else what a monster of a puzzle this is. It's so difficult. In fact, I would imagine the number of people who have actually solved it, with or without a tutorial, would probably be less than 10. That's a fair indication of its difficulty. I think the fact that you got as far as you did is amazing, and I'd encourage you to give it another go when you're ready, because the pain of solving it is worth it when it's solved!

I will definitally try to solve it again later on, especially after I did manage to get it as far as I did. The first time you solve a puzzle it's always the hardest imo, so next time it probably won't take as much time to get to the last few triangles again. (Unless I make a lot of mistakes along the way again xD Which happens a lot with the 30-40 moves algorithms.)

So far it's the only puzzle I own that I haven't solved yet, so I will most likely try to solve it soon just to add it to my solves. ;)

Greetz,
Quuador

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:27 pm 
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Solved, using my own solution. I really like this tricky puzzle. Thank you, rline, for inspiring me to buy it, and congratulations on being the first known solver. I have borrowed your nice image to illustrate a couple of routines from my solution.

I call the triangles that are adjacent to pentagons, P-triangles, and the triangles that are only adjacent to crown pieces, C-triangles. The hardest part for me was working out how to swap pieces between the two groups, to enable all crowns to be adjacent to C-triangles of the same color. After a while I found the following 15-move routine to do this (note that all the L and L' moves are small):

L' R L R' (push two pentagons out of shape)
U' (cut a crown away from its C-triangle)
R' DL R' DL' R' (push piece groups around to leave a different C-triangle waiting)
U (attach the crown to the different C-triangle)
R L' R' L (push the two pentagons back into shape)

This alters the pairings of two crown pieces as follows:
Attachment:
Geranium-crown-triangle-pairing.png
Geranium-crown-triangle-pairing.png [ 132.39 KiB | Viewed 482 times ]

(The crowns are moved around, as are other pieces, but this doesn't matter. I only show what matters in the diagram.)

Overall I solved this similarly to the rest of you:

1. Solve stems and arches.
2. Move pentagons as needed to get puzzle into shape.
3. Pair crowns with C-triangles as above.
4. Solve crowns and C-triangles together using 4-move and 6-move sequences.
5. Solve pentagons using [4,1] commutators and setup moves where necessary.
6. Reorient the center pentagon if necessary (cycling a triangle of pentagons one way, then back again with the mirrored routine, to twist the center pentagon by 72 degrees).
7. Solve P-triangles using [12,4] commutators and setup moves.

My routine to cycle the P-triangles pure is:

(DR R' L R L' DR') (DL' L R' L' R DL)
U' DL U DL'
(DL' R' L R L' DL) (DR L R' L' R DR')
DL U' DL' U

In the diagram below, if the moves in the 2nd and 4th lines of moves are reversed, the red piece marked X is cycled instead of the yellow piece. I didn't need to use this in my only solve so far, but it might be useful as an option.
Attachment:
Geranium-pure-cycle.png
Geranium-pure-cycle.png [ 128.93 KiB | Viewed 482 times ]

Edit: While looking for other commutators to solve the P-triangles, I belated found a more efficient way of cycling the pentagons - the same way as rline has described in his text tutorial - and I have updated my outline accordingly.


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