Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:48 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 73 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Konrad has addressed the fact that all these questions have been answered. But I think there is yet something that needs attending:
Jumbo wrote:
However I just have to get it off my chest (and although others have said the same).
Really? Please take a moment and consider why it is so important that you repeat information a good portion of the forum has already read and tires of hearing.

TwistyPuzzles is a place to discuss puzzles, and of course opinion has its place. But at a certain point, if that opinion adds nothing new, its value diminishes to the point where it is a burden on the community.

On the topic of KO puzzles your recently stated view does not add anything to this discussion. Your comments and the fact you have been a member for some years makes it clear you understand that. So for the minor good feeling you may get for getting that off your chest, the rest of us have the burden of reading it, again, and pointing out how it has been stated and answered in the past.

Without any knowledge of what has been said this is predictable, but innocent. Given that we have politely requested people to inform themselves on these points before posting this is a bit selfish to our community.

I would much prefer to enjoy your interesting designs like the Void String.

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:44 am
Jumbo wrote:
michael1234252 wrote:
I wonder how it will compare the KO puzzles that have more layers than the new V8


I know TP has stated a policy regarding higher order cubes (>7 Layers) being knock-off because they infringe V-Cubes patents. However I just have to get it off my chest (and although others have said the same). I think it is inappropriate to consider these cubes KO's when they were produced at a time when V-Cubes did not produce cubes higher than order 7. I would have a different opinion if I has seen any evidence that V-Cubes planned and were close to developing a cube higher than order 7 when those cubes were released. Yes the 8 is out now but how long did that take?

The speed cubing companies understand very well that making the fastest cube is what sells product, not arguing who produced an idea first and stifling innovation.

Anyway, my question is are we considering this Yong Jun's 13x13x13 a KO?

I assume not as this whole thread would have been bumped otherwise....


To clarify my last post, it was not my intention to defend the KO companies; although I acknowledge the reality that Verdes has the patent. My intent was to lament the fact that anyone has a patent when it comes to higher order cubes.

My rather idealistic point was that in my perfect world I would prefer that no one had that patent and all companies could compete just on the quality of their product.

I don't think I expressed myself well on this occasion, thank to Konrad for pointing that out to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Jumbo wrote:
My intent was to lament the fact that anyone has a patent when it comes to higher order cubes.

My rather idealistic point was that in my perfect world I would prefer that no one had that patent and all companies could compete just on the quality of their product.
At the risk of repeating what others have already stated several times now... you are still missing the point. Verdes' patent shouldn't be lamented. Verdes' came up with a mechanism which he was willing to invest in and produce. He formed V-Cubes. These activites have all benefited the puzzle community and should be encouraged. Had he not patented his invention do you think he would have put this investment into it? Or even shared it? One could argue that we might have these higher order cubes by now even without his patent but many were trying before this patent and no one had really succeeded. And Verdes' invention has benefited all twisty puzzles... not just the NxNxN cubes. He has been very open and sharing in my opinion and I believe he has more then a right to protect his inventment. If I could aford it I'd be tempted to patent my designs. I just can't aford to make the same inventment Verdes has. But this behavior shoud be encouraged... not lamented.

Also keep in mind that pantents don't last forever. The day you are after is coming. It may have never gotten here without Verdes' patent.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:44 am
I said my point was idealistic.

I also said I accept Verdes has the patent here.

I never said his invention did not benefit the community.

Sorry to have offended you Carl, or anyone else by expressing myself badly. Konrad felt I might have appeared to be supporting the KO companies which was not my intent. Original puzzle designers and their patents must be respected.

I hope everyone can lighten up just a little and we can all be friends. Sometimes its OK to have slightly differing views, or it should be in an open minded world. Occasionally one of us will make a dumb post for sure, but please go easy on us when we do.


Last edited by Jumbo on Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Jumbo wrote:
Sorry to have offended you Carl.
I'm not offened. I'm not even trying to be hard on you. Nor am I asking you to change your opinion. I was just trying to restate the stance this site has taken on the subject in the past and I was trying to do it in a way where you'd at least understand the logic.

For the record I'm glad to have you as part of the community and yes we are all entitled to a few dumb posts. None of this was intended to be personal. If its relevant I've had "discussions" about the KO policy with the moderators before and I'm not in 100% agreement with them myself. But I understand the intent and I respect their right to set the rules.

Anyways... let's get back to discussing this 13x13x13.
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:43 pm
Location: Shelby Township, MI. USA
Verdes’ patent does not cover all possible higher order cubes. It covers the specific geometry (a specific combination of conical and spherical cuts) used in the V-Cubes. I believe that it is written too specific in many ways which can allow competitors to make variations to get around it. This 13x13x13 is an example of this in a few ways. The easiest to see is that the patent specifically only covers cubes up to 11x11x11. Also, the description of the geometry used for the individual pieces (specifically the inner most section of the pieces, near the core) does not match what is used here (or by cubes made by one other higher order cube manufacture which are considered KO here).

There are other areas of their patent where I think they got too specific which can allow competitors to easily bypass it, such as the fact that it specifically applies to cubes greater than 6x6x6 which are not cubic (pillowed). They would have been better off not even mentioning anything about pillowing (for 6x6x6 through 11x11x11) and cubic (for 2x2x2 through 6x6x6). Sometimes being generic on some minor details will broaden the protection that a patent can provide.

Companies will often pursue multiple patents for an invention. A patent containing specific details of their actual product and then other patents which could cover simple or obvious variations and/or be written more generically. This strategy can help prevent competitors from making similar products that don’t exactly copy the patented product. Verdes only has a patent specific to their design, and it is one that that didn’t even follow closely with all of their products. The V2, 3, 4, and 8 are different enough that they may not actually be projected by the patent that they have.

I still find it odd that some of the claims in the patent talk about using screws and springs to hold the centers to the core while the V5, 6, and 7 don’t use screws and using screws in the manner is hardly a new idea. It is another area where they shouldn’t have included anything.

Keep in mind that the patent system is not meant to prevent innovation. It is meant to give protection to an inventor but it is not meant to give a monopoly. One of the reasons that full disclosure of the design is spelled out in the patent is to show others what was done and to inspire innovative improvements. The practice of basing a new product off of a patented one while making notable improvements is encouraged.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:44 am
wwwmwww wrote:
wwwmwww wrote:
Anyways... let's get back to discussing this 13x13x13.
Carl


Thanks Carl, glad we sorted that! :P


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:35 am
When the petaminx came out, I thought "No way, that's just ridiculous. It's a feat and would be neat to own, but there's no way I'd ever buy one." But here I sit, staring at my petaminx.
With that being said, this is ridiculous. It's a feat and would be neat to own, but there's no way I'd ever buy one.
Oh and I look forward to the maniac who tries to break the "largest barrel mod" record with this.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:20 am
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Seems like there are a lot of people that don't plan to get this puzzle on account of it being "too big".

Personally, I love solving big cubes. I solve my 9x9 through 11x11 at least once a day, if not multiple times. Big cubes are relaxing; it's a ton of fun. When this puzzle comes out, I'm going to do everything I can to get my hands on one.

_________________
I like twisty sticker boxes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:06 am
NXTgen wrote:
But here's the real question: Will we keep this thread on its tracks, or derail it more? 8-)
I'm sure we know this as well.


It looks as if it is being derailed more. Sorry in advance to the people who will come to this topic a little late and say, "What does the Verdes Patent even have to do with this? That only covers up to 11x11!"
That is the problem with society. People are clueless sometimes.

_________________
Shapeways shop


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:03 pm
Location: Madrid -Spain -Europe
first pictures


Attachments:
13.jpg
13.jpg [ 87.18 KiB | Viewed 951 times ]

_________________
Image
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:27 pm
Wow im so exited plastic looks high quality cannot wait for video


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:56 am
Location: The Netherlands
Wow neat! :D Good to see this actually come to fruition!

_________________
“I am no bird, no net ensnares me.”
― Charlotte Brontë


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Bedford, England
There is a video here:

http://bbs.mf8-china.com/forum.php?mod= ... tid=101812

It looks pretty good, functioning well, although some modifications have clearly been made to the prototype, but I'm sure that is to be expected really :D

Edit: here is a link to just the video:

http://static.video.qq.com/TPout.swf?au ... 1079tmx8uk

_________________
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/martywolfman?feature=plcp Now in 1080p HD!

Latest videos: Unboxing Burgo's incredible Crazy 2 Face B4 kit, Calvins 2x4x6


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:23 pm
not as big as I thought it would be.

_________________
My youtube videos http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoHSPKg-qwAxAJe7-CzIp2A


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:27 pm
guys I do not think this is by yj I think its a version by lanlan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:23 pm
Naz wrote:
guys I do not think this is by yj I think its a version by lanlan


no Lanlan is not going to make it also the mf8 forum member that originally posted about this works for YJ/Moyu and not lanlan.

_________________
My youtube videos http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoHSPKg-qwAxAJe7-CzIp2A


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:06 pm
Kattenvriendin wrote:
. . . a puzzle the size of Oskar's is very cool but it is not fun to play with really because OF its size. Just imagine the 11x11 blown up 3-4 cm all ways. Turning that and aligning the layers is going to be a pain.

But I sincerely doubt the max has been reached to keep things stable, just that things will HAVE to be sized up and adjusted in number of places to hold on to in the mech in order TO keep them that way. . .


i think this, and Oskar's 17*, are interesting examples of paradigm vs. practical engineering:

the base structure of both puzzles is spherical, but since these puzzles are based on Rubik's Cube, known more for its form than its structure or concept, the designers try to maintain as much of that cubic form as possible. in this case, however, [it seems to me that] a spherical form would be more practical, more æsthetically pleasing, and would require less material in production. i would also think it would be more stable with pieces of a more uniform length and cross section, by reducing the occasional moment force that might pop a piece out of position nearer the corners—where the points of compression holding the puzzle together tend to diverge. (any engineers wanna weigh in on this?)

and as far as larger puzzles go, though i do respect a good engineering challenge, i recall my fingers and wrist tendons ached for a full day after solving the 11.
i imagine myself solving the 13 wearing bowlers' wrist braces.


_____

*because Ocean's 11 just wasn't daring enough


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:15 am
GuiltyBystander wrote:
I know it's probably controversial, but I would argue that even the 17x17x17 is unproven. To prove a puzzle, I think it needs a full scramble and solve at least one (please link to post/video if I missed that announcement). I will agree that Oskar's 17x17x17 is very impressive and a great proof of concept for larger cubes.

Well now there is a scrambling, and the person who scrambled it said that he was going to solve it. Also, on that thread, Oliver said that someone else had already stickered and scrambled one. So there are 2 scrambles, and now the 17x17 is a proven puzzle.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27159

benpuzzles wrote:
It honestly makes me disappointed that they wouldn't choose to mass-produce a brand new kind of puzzle with a new solving challenge, but rather, just yet another higher-order cube. :(


Well at the same time they announced the 13x13, they also announced that Yj/Moyu would make the 4x4 fisher cube, and a few other weird new cubes that are completely original solving challenges. So they are making some puzzles with old solving challenges/speedcubes but they are now making some new puzzles too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
crypticat wrote:
a spherical form would be more practical

Trust me, nothing could be further from the truth. A sphere has no natural alignment and therefore incredibly labourious to move.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:06 pm
Tony Fisher wrote:
crypticat wrote:
a spherical form would be more practical

Trust me, nothing could be further from the truth. A sphere has no natural alignment and therefore incredibly labourious to move.


given the number of spherical puzzles to your credit, i will trust you.

-[edit]-

but since you have done several shape transforms along these lines, have you noticed any difference in stability or ease of rotation after spherising a cubic puzzle? —especially with the 11?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:43 pm
Location: Shelby Township, MI. USA
Too bad it's pillowed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:12 am
Location: Paris
Is that a prototype for massproduction purpose ?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 73 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group