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 Post subject: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:42 am 
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Yongjun has published some pictures of 13x13x13 in MF8.


It's about 13.5cm.It will be for sale in April or May.


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Last edited by fhw on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:26 am 
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I wonder how it will compare the KO puzzles that have more layers than the new V8

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:48 am 
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I must say, this is gorgeous!

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:51 am 
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michael1234252 wrote:
I wonder how it will compare the KO puzzles that have more layers than the new V8
By "other" do you mean to imply you consider this 13x13x13 a KO? I don't believe that is correct as Verdes' patent only covers cases up to the 11x11x11. Though patent law and our KO policy aren't exactly the same so I may be wrong in this assessment.

Interesting design either way.... If this is going to mass production, it makes me wonder how long it will be before someone decides to mass produce Oskar's 17x17x17.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:56 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
michael1234252 wrote:
I wonder how it will compare the KO puzzles that have more layers than the new V8
By "other" do you mean to imply you consider this 13x13x13 a KO? I don't believe that is correct as Verdes' patent only covers cases up to the 11x11x11. Though patent law and our KO policy aren't exactly the same so I may be wrong in this assessment.

Interesting design either way.... If this is going to mass production, it makes me wonder how long it will be before someone decides to mass produce Oskar's 17x17x17.

Carl


No I'm talking about the ones that are Cubic. Besides this 13x13x13 does not have a very similar Mech design to the V-7.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:56 pm 
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I remember going to their website and watched their promo video.

At the end they said they'd have a 13x13 by the end of 2010. I laughed, and I waited. But now seeing that they are working on it now makes me uneasy.

They said it would be better than the 9x9, and if you remember how that was, I'm sure a lot turns better :lol: .

I do look forward to this, but in the sense of KO puzzles, I don't think this is a KO puzzle (correct me if I'm wrong), due to the V-cube patent going up to 11 layers and then stopping. I would like to see the end product of this puzzle. And I'd like to see how large this is in person, because the KO 11x11 was so massive I would imagine this will be bigger, but not by a lot.

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Last edited by NXTgen on Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:49 pm 
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I don't get why people call YJ a KO company, I think that KO refere to a puzzle not to a company, and some puzzles of YJ are ok, If I am mistaken I would like to get corrected!

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:10 pm 
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lol, I thought if I ever got myself an 11x11 it would be over doing it, but a 13x13 is ridiculous. Even if I could afford it, I think I'll pass :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Elias Acrich wrote:
I don't get why people call YJ a KO company, I think that KO refere to a puzzle not to a company, and some puzzles of YJ are ok, If I am mistaken I would like to get corrected!
I have not read in this thread that somebody called YJ a KO company.
You are correct that we never call a company a KO company.
DLitwin wrote:
....Companies are not considered KO. KO stands for Knock Off which means unauthorized copy, but the company is not a copy (unless, I suppose someone gets a patent on how to structure a business).
Individual puzzles may be judged as KO. Companies producing a KO puzzles frequently produce other puzzles that are not KO, and we have no reason to discourage them from doing that, in fact we want to encourage them to focus their efforts in directions that give us new designs.

Indeed some producers put more of their efforts in copying the work of others vs. new designs, but we hope they might change at some point.

Dave
Only certain puzzles can be Knockoffs = KO puzzles.
In the case of a 13x13x13 it is clear that this cannot be a KO regarding the Verdes patent, because the patent covers cubes up to 11x11x11.
I'm not aware that anybody else has designed a 13x13x13.

EDIT: added DLitwin's quote from the 8x8x8 thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:45 pm 
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It resembles the mechanism in the ShengShou cubes, being cylindrical. and the multiple center flanges.
It looks like it will turn well. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:07 pm 
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It honestly makes me disappointed that they wouldn't choose to mass-produce a brand new kind of puzzle with a new solving challenge, but rather, just yet another higher-order cube. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:09 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
It honestly makes me disappointed that they wouldn't choose to mass-produce a brand new kind of puzzle with a new solving challenge, but rather, just yet another higher-order cube. :(

The fact that we're talking about it and people think it's cool and get excited suggests that they're probably making market-driven decisions.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:12 pm 
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Nice :shock: . It's only my personnal opinion, but it eould not suprise memif v-cube announced in a few weeks/months that they are releasing a 13x13x13. And I wonder if it gives you bad luck solving a 13x13x13 :shock: .

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:20 pm 
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Drake wrote:
And I wonder if it gives you bad luck solving a 13x13x13 :shock: .

...on Friday the 13th. :lol:
I looked closer at the mechanism, and it looks like a 3x3 that's inside a 7x7, inside the 13x13. Interesting...
Also I predict a mass-produced 17x17 in 4 years. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:22 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
It honestly makes me disappointed that they wouldn't choose to mass-produce a brand new kind of puzzle with a new solving challenge, but rather, just yet another higher-order cube. :(


I see this 13x13x13 as an engineering achievement as in showing us that there is really no boundary as in. "How many layers can the cube have?" But I think Oskars over the top 17x17x17 would be the limit.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:23 pm 
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michael1234252 wrote:
benpuzzles wrote:
It honestly makes me disappointed that they wouldn't choose to mass-produce a brand new kind of puzzle with a new solving challenge, but rather, just yet another higher-order cube. :(


I see this 13x13x13 as an engineering achievement as in showing us that there is really no boundary as in. "How many layers can the cube have?" But I think Oskars over the top 17x17x17 would be the limit.

I certainly agree, this is really impressive! But the fact that they chose this to produce over some other much more interesting puzzle (in my opinion) disappoints me.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:02 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
You are correct that we never call a company a KO company.

Excuse me while I edit my post, as I had been under the impression it was alright to say it's KO company. I wasn't aware we don't call companies KO companies. :oops:

And while I'm at it, I do want to see this released. I hope it's of a good price...

michael1234252 wrote:
But I think Oskars over the top 17x17x17 would be the limit.

I guess you could say it was... Over the top? Or Above and beyond? (Also, "To infinity, and beyond!" can apply here :lol: )

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:20 pm 
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I just realized that those zigzag cuts near the outer layer look like my design for the 31x31x31.
Attachment:
File comment: My biggest cube design ever
31x31x31.png
31x31x31.png [ 408.92 KiB | Viewed 7050 times ]

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31x31x31 2.png
31x31x31 2.png [ 460.74 KiB | Viewed 7050 times ]

As well as the multiple centers.
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File comment: The base sketch
31x31x31 3.png
31x31x31 3.png [ 164.42 KiB | Viewed 7050 times ]


I wonder if this is a coincidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:21 pm 
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E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I just realized that those zigzag cuts near the outer layer look like my design for the 31x31x31...

What the hell did I just see... :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:22 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
michael1234252 wrote:
I see this 13x13x13 as an engineering achievement as in showing us that there is really no boundary as in. "How many layers can the cube have?" But I think Oskars over the top 17x17x17 would be the limit.
I certainly agree, this is really impressive! But the fact that they chose this to produce over some other much more interesting puzzle (in my opinion) disappoints me.
To me, in an ideal word, all puzzles that can be concieved should have a chance to be produced at a resonable cost. The choice to produce this one doesn't preclude another from getting produced. And do we even know this one is slated for production? It might just be a designer that wanted to challenge himself and share his design.

And yes I agree its impressive. Though michael1234252's statement is self contradictory and makes no sense to me. Allow me to paraphrase...

This 13x13x13 is an engineering achievement and shows us there are no boundaries, but Oskar's 17x17x17 is a boundary!?!?

Let's remember there were several 17x17x17 designs which looked great on paper but which failed to work as designed. This 13x13x13 is still an unproven design. And to my knowledge no one has attempted anything bigger then a 17x17x17. I don't see how any of this tells us where the functional design boundaries are aside from they are beyond the 17x17x17. And I think the functional design boundaries are already well beyond what would be considered a practicle puzzle from a solving and scrambling point of view. How many people would want to scrable and solve a 17x17x17 even if they could get one for free? Those that have paid to own the half dozen or so in existance today still haven't fully scrambled and solved one that I'm aware of. At this size one is simply trying to demonstrate a functional solution to an engineering challenge more then they are trying to make a new puzzle. And that isn't meant to be a negative... I enjoy a good engieering challenge just as much as I do a good puzzle.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:31 pm 
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wwwmwww: this is pretty similar to a post I put a little while ago on the puzzle photography group :) , one on stability and has the limit been reached:

"I strongly believe you can cast pieces that are quite long and that have side bits sticking out. Just have to push them together to assemble. As long as they aren't getting too thin that should work just fine. The question IMHO is more a matter of size than of mechanism.

With this I mean: a puzzle the size of Oskar's is very cool but it is not fun to play with really because OF its size. Just imagine the 11x11 blown up 3-4 cm all ways. Turning that and aligning the layers is going to be a pain.

But I sincerely doubt the max has been reached to keep things stable, just that things will HAVE to be sized up and adjusted in number of places to hold on to in the mech in order TO keep them that way.

Looks like YJ has done just that, the added center bits, for one."

I hope that the puzzle will be easy to turn, when it is it will be more likely that one will play with it, despite its size. But indeed.. when is a puzzle no longer manageable?

A nice combination between engineering and a good puzzle hopefully comes out of this 13x13 :)

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:33 pm 
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Carl what I mean is that the V-cube patent only covers cubes up to 11x11. But Oskars 17x17x17 is 3d printed but not factory made. As time goes by and it's time to mas produce a 17x17x17 that would be the limit. This thread shows us some designs that Bug cubes could have and some show that the design would be a failure http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/view ... hp?t=20633

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:52 pm 
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Count me in the line-up (queue) to buy one. Why? Because they are fun and to me the solve of a big puzzle is a kind of magic where chaos gives way to order, pretty much the opposite of the way the universe is supposed to work. There are not too many cubic puzzles in the world, dodecahedrons, icosahedrons, dipyramids or any other shape you can imagine for the same reason there are not too many hockey games, restaurant meals, Judge Judy episodes or cameras in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:58 pm 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
Count me in the line-up (queue) to buy one. Why? Because they are fun and to me the solve of a big puzzle is a kind of magic where chaos gives way to order, pretty much the opposite of the way the universe is supposed to work. There are not too many cubic puzzles in the world, dodecahedrons, icosahedrons, dipyramids or any other shape you can imagine for the same reason there are not too many hockey games, restaurant meals, Judge Judy episodes or cameras in the world.

I like how you phrased that Pete. I think what you're trying to say is that this will be the first of it's kind for this style of puzzle sorta like saying there is allot of different types of 3x3x3s out there but very little of the 13x13x13.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:23 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
This 13x13x13 is still an unproven design. And to my knowledge no one has attempted anything bigger than a 17x17x17. I don't see how any of this tells us where the functional design boundaries are aside from they are beyond the 17x17x17.
I know it's probably controversial, but I would argue that even the 17x17x17 is unproven. To prove a puzzle, I think it needs a full scramble and solve at least one (please link to post/video if I missed that announcement). I will agree that Oskar's 17x17x17 is very impressive and a great proof of concept for larger cubes.

wwwmwww wrote:
How many people would want to scramble and solve a 17x17x17 even if they could get one for free?
If it turned better, I might like to take a shot at it. Though I'm sure that solve would span several days and I might want help from a friend or brother.

I've heard that some people have solve virtual cubes as large as 40x40x40 and took several hours to do them. I don't know if they used macros or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:43 pm 
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Personally, I do not find it beautiful. The first layers and the corners are too big as on the Oskar 17x17. I have one 11x11 Yuxin and Petaminx and I find them more attractive. My 11x11 has a little bigger corners and first layer, but that remains correct and beautiful. But there it is too big. I shall prefer that he work on the design to have lines proportional as on one 3x3 or one 5x5. :solved: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:47 pm 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:

I've heard that some people have solve virtual cubes as large as 40x40x40 and took several hours to do them. I don't know if they used macros or not.

Actually cubes as big as 121x121 have been solved manually! http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?44193-UWR-121x121x121-Largest-Solve-Ever

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:10 pm 
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Temeraire wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:

I've heard that some people have solve virtual cubes as large as 40x40x40 and took several hours to do them. I don't know if they used macros or not.

Actually cubes as big as 121x121 have been solved manually! http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?44193-UWR-121x121x121-Largest-Solve-Ever

This is the epitome is ridiculously boring tasks. Big cubes are interesting from a design standpoint, but solving is so mindless. Why not just alphabetize all the words in your favorite book at that point?

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:19 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
Big cubes are interesting from a design standpoint, but solving is so mindless.

This is exactly why I'm not a fan of high-order cubes. They are great mechanical accomplishments, but once you get to orders this high there really aren't any differences between solving them, except for length. I would MUCH rather solve a 5x5 than a 13x13.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:23 pm 
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hello

is it 'easier' to make an odd layered cube than an even layered cube?
what about the 12x12?
would the puzzle become more unstable the higher up you go?
also, dosen't it just become more tedious to solve?
being a hypocrete, i'd consider buying one if the price was fair. ha ha


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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:32 pm 
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AMatureCuber wrote:
hello

is it 'easier' to make an odd layered cube than an even layered cube?
what about the 12x12?
would the puzzle become more unstable the higher up you go?
also, dosen't it just become more tedious to solve?
being a hypocrete, i'd consider buying one if the price was fair. ha ha


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See this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hcvqkQ-fdw and this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2mLtvRZePU also see viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15424&hilit=12x12x12 viewtopic.php?f=15&t=24838&hilit=12x12x12 viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19182&hilit=12x12x12

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:40 pm 
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I think Tony should make a 13x13x13 ball out of this puzzle. It would be fantastic to see that! I might even buy it, should he be willing to sell it.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:36 am 
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A few notes on this thread. I have had to do some minor editing on the KO front, but not much. Mostly manufacturer names in conjunction with puzzles we consider KO (see below for a bit of detail on that).

As many have noted a 13x13x13 is not considered a KO of the Verdes design (by our policy) given that the Verdes patent limits itself to 11x11x11.
As wwwmwww noted our policy is not dictated by patent but in this case the designer has, through the limits of their claims, been clear about what they wish protected.
NXTgen wrote:
Excuse me while I edit my post, as I had been under the impression it was alright to say it's KO company. I wasn't aware we don't call companies KO companies. :oops:
Just to be extra clear on this point as there is a bit of subtlety:
*We* (the Admin and Moderator staff, and our KO policy) do not say a company is or consider a company KO for the reasons quoted above.
We have no express policy of forbidding others to express that if it is their opinion. Likely it will generate a comment or explanation like we did here and before, but it isn't breaking any direct rules.

It does get a bit delicate, however, considering that our policy does not allow links to KO puzzles or manufacturer names in conjunction with puzzles we consider KO.
Imagine a company, let's call them BiffPuzzles for example, produces a selection of puzzles and some (say, a copy of the Konrad cube) are considered KO but others not KO (say, the Rox cube that is an original design). One can discuss the BiffPuzzles Rox cube, and the BiffPuzzles manufacturer in general without violating our KO policy. But we would consider it disrespectful to Konrad if we discussed the BiffPuzzles Konrad Cube as that is basically calling out where to get a KO product (similar to a link). There can also be discussion about the fact that a KO of the Konrad cube exists, just not with the BiffPuzzles label being associated with it.
So while it is reasonable for you to express your view that BiffPuzzles is a KO company, the forum staff would not say it and would probably clarify our perspective. And if you did so in a thread discussing the KO of the Konrad cube you would be walking towards associations that get close to being a problem. Really, associating any particular company with producing KOs is giving them attention in a way we'd prefer not to.

There are many manufacturers that produce KO puzzles but that is not all they do. So it is fine to discuss manufacturers in general. But please be respectful of the associations.

Perhaps this seems silly. We are trying to provide some sense of politeness and respect in an awfully difficult context. And sometimes what is considered proper manners can seem objectively absurd (have you ever worn a tie?), yet has its place and purpose.

E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
It resembles the mechanism in the ShengShou cubes, being cylindrical. and the multiple center flanges.
It looks like it will turn well. :D
While there are a few small cylindrical surfaces (inner center areas) the majority are conical so I wouldn't in general think of describing this puzzle as cylindrical.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:11 am 
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DLitwin wrote:
E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
It resembles the mechanism in the ShengShou cubes, being cylindrical. and the multiple center flanges.
It looks like it will turn well. :D
While there are a few small cylindrical surfaces (inner center areas) the majority are conical so I wouldn't in general think of describing this puzzle as cylindrical.
As a designer, I'm almost of the mindset that spherical and conical cuts ALWAYS trump cylindrical cuts. Granted I've not designed anything this large, but the fact that this design does contain some cylindrical cuts I find very significant. In general are there cases where a cylindrical cut is actually an improvement over a conical one? Granted this is probably a very subjective question but if there exist examples which clearly show some advantage to using cylindrical cuts in some cases I'd be VERY interesting in understanding those cases as a designer.

Oh and just to clarify... my statement about how many would want to solve and scramble a 17x17x17... wasn't meant to imply there would be NONE. I imagine there are some. The fact that someone solved a 121x121x121 manually on a PC proves that there would be some interest at just about any size. Its just that the amount of interest starts to get vanishingly small at some point with these large cubes. See MeMyselfAndPi comment above about passing on the 13x13x13 if it gets produced. He is a very serious cuber with many followers and just think about all the time and energy he has spent on this hobby making videos, entering solving competitions, etc. He obviously has more interest in cubes then 99.99% of the population yet he's inclined to draw the line before the 13x13x13. If there is a market for cubes of this order and higher I suspect it's more those that are interested in obtaining a very unique object that demonstartes a very difficult engineering challenge then those that would simply consider themselves puzzle collectors and solvers. At some point, regardless of how well they turn, these large NxNxN's cease to be practile puzzles. That line may be very fuzzy and very from person to person but I believe for the vast majority (those that spend less energy on cubes then MeMyselfAndPi does) that line is drawn well before the 17x17x17. That was all I was trying to say. That said... I'm a likely customer of this 13x13x13 if it gets produced myself. But I'm far from certain if I'd ever do a full scramble and solve.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:21 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
If there is a market for cubes of this order and higher I suspect it's more those that are interesting in obtaining a very unique object that demonstartes a very difficult engineering challenge then those that would simply consider themselves puzzle collectors and solvers.

Carl


In my opinion what makes higher order cubes interesting is the possibility to bandage them in creative ways (like i.e the chimera cubes). Just with taping you can have so much challenges and additional fun with these puzzles. (To solve them only as cubes makes no great sense because there is no new challenges). That is why I wished to see DIY bandage kits for higher order cubes. (Just screw some holes in the cubies and at least I am happy :wink: )

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:14 am 
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doctor twist wrote:
In my opinion what makes higher order cubes interesting is the possibility to bandage them in creative ways (like i.e the chimera cubes).
Interesting perspective... though generally the more resitictions you place on the moves the more total moves will be required to scramble and solve the puzzle. At some level of bandaging that should reverse and come back down again though (for example you could consider a 3x3x3 a bandaged 13x13x13) but I would still tend to think most interesting forms of bandaging could be explored before you got to the 13x13x13.

This does make me think of an interesting puzzle though. My DoDep3x3x3 is a 3x3x3 which makes use of 2 different cut depths and looks like a bandaged 5x5x5. As a 3x3x3 has 6 faces you could in principle make each face have a unique cut depth.

2 cut depths = bandaged multi-5x5x5
3 cut depths = bandaged multi-7x7x7
4 cut depths = bandaged multi-9x9x9
5 cut depths = bandaged multi-11x11x11
6 cut depths = bandaged multi-13x13x13

So there is a puzzle at this size that I bet could be very interesting. However you'd need a multi-13x13x13 I believe in order to have all the pieces necessary which need bandaging. So that puzzle couldn't be made by simply bandaging this 13x13x13. If my DoDep3x3x3 works well I may take a shot at the TriDep3x3x3 but it will be a while before I seriously think about making anything much higher then that.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:47 pm 
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I meant to say that the mechanism has cones and cylinders, not cones and spheres.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:10 pm 
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E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I just realized that those zigzag cuts near the outer layer look like my design for the 31x31x31.


Did you mean 13x13? Because if you didn't, I am terrified.
Also, that design looks AWESOME! I thinks that it looks better flat than pillowed.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:54 am 
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E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I just realized that those zigzag cuts near the outer layer look like my design for the 31x31x31.

I wonder if this is a coincidence.

At first I thought this was a typo of 13x13x13... but then I counted... and it has 16 layers?

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:00 am 
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I had to check, and indeed. *chuckles*

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:51 am 
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yeeeeeees ! I'm very exited to buy this cube !

but , somebody know anything about the price ?


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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:57 am 
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TheCubingKyle wrote:
E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I just realized that those zigzag cuts near the outer layer look like my design for the 31x31x31.

I wonder if this is a coincidence.

At first I thought this was a typo of 13x13x13... but then I counted... and it has 16 layers?
No, every other layer is missing from the picture, I guess so that you can see it better. It has 31 layers.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:21 am 
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OWhhhh. I thought it was a slightly all layers separated picture. Thanks for explaining Gus :)

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:34 pm 
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Gus wrote:
TheCubingKyle wrote:
E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I just realized that those zigzag cuts near the outer layer look like my design for the 31x31x31.

I wonder if this is a coincidence.

At first I thought this was a typo of 13x13x13... but then I counted... and it has 16 layers?
No, every other layer is missing from the picture, I guess so that you can see it better. It has 31 layers.


Oh I thought it was exploded outward

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:58 pm 
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Gus wrote:
No, every other layer is missing from the picture, I guess so that you can see it better. It has 31 layers.


:shock:

E-Cubes Designer X, if you decide to use your powers for evil instead of good, you could probably take over the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:20 pm 
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12354q wrote:
Gus wrote:
No, every other layer is missing from the picture, I guess so that you can see it better. It has 31 layers.


:shock:

E-Cubes Designer X, if you decide to use your powers for evil instead of good, you could probably take over the world.

He already has taken over the world. We just don't know it yet. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:02 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
12354q wrote:
Gus wrote:
No, every other layer is missing from the picture, I guess so that you can see it better. It has 31 layers.


:shock:

E-Cubes Designer X, if you decide to use your powers for evil instead of good, you could probably take over the world.

He already has taken over the world. We just don't know it yet. 8-)

I've known he would...


But here's the real question: Will we keep this thread on its tracks, or derail it more? 8-)
I'm sure we know this as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:07 am 
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michael1234252 wrote:
I wonder how it will compare the KO puzzles that have more layers than the new V8


I know TP has stated a policy regarding higher order cubes (>7 Layers) being knock-off because they infringe V-Cubes patents. However I just have to get it off my chest (and although others have said the same). I think it is inappropriate to consider these cubes KO's when they were produced at a time when V-Cubes did not produce cubes higher than order 7. I would have a different opinion if I has seen any evidence that V-Cubes planned and were close to developing a cube higher than order 7 when those cubes were released. Yes the 8 is out now but how long did that take?

The speed cubing companies understand very well that making the fastest cube is what sells product, not arguing who produced an idea first and stifling innovation.

Anyway, my question is are we considering this Yong Jun's 13x13x13 a KO?

I assume not as this whole thread would have been bumped otherwise....


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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:52 am 
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Jumbo wrote:
michael1234252 wrote:
I wonder how it will compare the KO puzzles that have more layers than the new V8


I know TP has stated a policy regarding higher order cubes (>7 Layers) being knock-off because they infringe V-Cubes patents. However I just have to get it off my chest (and although others have said the same). I think it is inappropriate to consider these cubes KO's when they were produced at a time when V-Cubes did not produce cubes higher than order 7. I would have a different opinion if I has seen any evidence that V-Cubes planned and were close to developing a cube higher than order 7 when those cubes were released. Yes the 8 is out now but how long did that take?

The speed cubing companies understand very well that making the fastest cube is what sells product, not arguing who produced an idea first and stifling innovation.

Anyway, my question is are we considering this Yong Jun's 13x13x13 a KO?

I assume not as this whole thread would have been bumped otherwise....
We have stated this many times: Any cubes >5x5x5 <12x12x12 other than those from Verdes are considered KO by this forum.
It is simple in this case: Verdes holds a patent for cubes up to 11x11x11 in most countries of the world.
The 13x13x13 (as an 12x12x12) is beyond the Verdes patent, so no KO.
A patent is valid for 15 years.

This was probably different in China at the time of first KO Cubes production.
Patent law is law, if you export an item to a country (e.g. EU country) where the patent is valid, you are breaking a law.
It is as simple as that!!!

The KO production hurt the Verdes business, considerably.
DLitwin's post in the V-8 leads to a link that gives you more background history:
DLitwin wrote:
zamkam wrote:
I'm not assuming anything, but the fact is it took them more than 10 years to release the V-Cube 8, for no apparent reason. They spent those years releasing other V-Cubes (V-Cube 7 Flags? really???). Why did they stop at 7?
For the record, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Verdes or anyone at his company. I just don't understand them.
In this same topic just one page before your post (here) I address this issue. Well, really I just link to another thread where I addressed it in 2009.

For those wishing to comment on KO issues please take the time to read what has already been written. I can understand not having read every post in the last 4-5 years, but one should at least read the posts of the thread in which they are replying.

Dave
The highlighting was done by me.
I think that veteran members are a bit bored, that we, the TP staff, has to repeat such things over and over again. :wink:

Here is a direct quote from DLitwin
DLitwin in the 11x11x11 on November 24th, 2009 wrote:
Many people have commented "Why doesn't Verdes release sooner", with the implication that he is helping people pirate by not releasing his own.

These observations assume an unrealistic world of unlimited finances and guranteed profitable market.

Who here is willing to shell out the tens (or hundreds) of thousands of of their hard earned dollars to bring a Verdes 9x9x9 to market? (If their are any, by all means contact him and offer to invest in his business). What makes you think the existing V-Cubes are even profitable, or he would tell you either way?

Clearly the market for a 9x9x9 is far smaller and production costs higher than the 7x7x7, and that is far smaller/higher than the 3x3x3. Do you *know* that a 9x9x9, built in Europe with all the associated labor rates and safety regulations, can make money? Are you willing to bet your house and family future on that chance? Do you think a Verdes 9x9x9 will do anything to slow down the fakes? Or will his marketing money only help them?

Perhaps Mr. Verdes simply does not have the finances to risk such a product. With the fakes eating into his V-5-6-7 business who is to say he isn't losing money already? Why would one consider taking a huge financial risk, and what would he hope to gain?

"Good business sense" was mentioned above, and I think it is good business sense to not spend money that does not have a reasonable expectation of return. And who here knows the finances of selling higher order cubes in a market fraught with illegal competition better than Mr. Verdes? Who here is in a position to second guess his decisions about his business?

I can only assume Mr. Verdes will enter the V-8+ market when it makes good business sense. I don't think he is going to lose his shirt just because a few cube enthusiasts are impatient and might buy his illegal competition. People willing to do so will probably buy that competition anyway since he won't be able to compete on price, just quality.

Having market share in an unprofitable market isn't a compelling business interest. If there were no companies pirating his patents perhaps we would have seen a Verdes 9x9x9 by now. Or perhaps, even with no piracy, the market just isn't there for such a product. You and everyone on this forum buying one or two just won't do it.

I can't say, but I can say Mr. Verdes would have a better market data and research to inform this decision than any of us.

So perhaps people can cut him some slack when presuming to lecture him on his own business.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Yong Jun's 13x13x13
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:54 am 
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Jumbo wrote:
However I just have to get it off my chest (and although others have said the same). I think it is inappropriate to consider these cubes KO's when they were produced at a time when V-Cubes did not produce cubes higher than order 7.
Had it not been for the patent, I'd likely agree with you. But the patent trumps our KO policy in my opinion. Calling these cubes K.O. really only means anything here at TwistyPuzzles. The simple fact of the mater is that they are illegal in most locations.
Jumbo wrote:
Anyway, my question is are we considering this Yong Jun's 13x13x13 a KO?
That question has been answered above.

Carl

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