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 Post subject: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:51 am 
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I just noticed this: https://v-cubes.com/ecom/home.php?cat=268

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:18 am 
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Fantastic news! I've been waiting for an 8x8x8 forever! Hopefully we'll see the entire line someday...

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:26 am 
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jabeck wrote:
Fantastic news! I've been waiting for an 8x8x8 forever! Hopefully we'll see the entire line someday...


The pillowed 6x6x6 should be out soon as well!

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:45 pm 
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Quote:
It holds the record of being the largest, smoothest and most complex rotational puzzle game in the world!
:? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:37 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
Quote:
It holds the record of being the largest, smoothest and most complex rotational puzzle game in the world!
:? :lol:

Um, KO 11x11? 17x17? 10x10?

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:14 pm 
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£52 including shipping but even still, it's an instant buy for me. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:56 pm 
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€61.53 (shipping + handling fee included) to Germany.

Strange Problem: I could not order it using Internet Explorer V11 (on Windows 8.1), but Firefox did the job :)
(On IE the picture of the 8x8x8 vanished after a split second. :roll: )

Thanks for the hint Roberto :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:58 pm 
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€64.24 = $97.27 Australian dollars for me :shock: I definitely want one, but...

EDIT: Then again, I did just get back $85 AUD from paypal :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:39 pm 
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V-cubes claim to have the best of every cube, but they have not presented anything proving that their cubes are the best yet :| I hope V-cubes will improve on their current designs, and that the V8 is improved from the patented design. :mrgreen:


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I plan to design an E-Cube 8x8x8 :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:41 pm 
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I guess now that this is being released, KO is implied on all cubes mass produced 9x9x9 and up, as well as a certain company that makes those puzzles from 5x5x5 and up. Also, I might get two in a few months and then sticker mod one into an 8-color, 8-layered cube (either corner sections or layers, haven't decided yet.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:56 pm 
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Will there be a DIY kit for the 8x8x8? To me, putting them together is half the fun.
mocenigo wrote:
The pillowed 6x6x6 should be out soon as well!
Anyone yet know if this will be the exact same mech as the cubic 6x6x6? Considering the time between the releases, I would hope they've incorporated their learnings from the intervening years.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:32 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Anyone yet know if this will be the exact same mech as the cubic 6x6x6? Considering the time between the releases, I would hope they've incorporated their learnings from the intervening years.

Carl


They say it's better than the V7, so sounds like no clicky mech. They must have taken a tip from a certain "KO."

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:12 am 
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BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
I guess now that this is being released, KO is implied on all cubes mass produced 9x9x9 and up
KO on these puzzles has been more than implied it has been explicitly stated for years, as you can read in this thread. Although I would welcome a non-infringing production puzzle greater than 5x5x5, none have yet been made so I have not had any reason to edit that post.
BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
as well as a certain company that makes those puzzles from 5x5x5 and up
Companies are not considered KO. KO stands for Knock Off which means unauthorized copy, but the company is not a copy (unless, I suppose someone gets a patent on how to structure a business).
Individual puzzles may be judged as KO. Companies producing a KO puzzles frequently produce other puzzles that are not KO, and we have no reason to discourage them from doing that, in fact we want to encourage them to focus their efforts in directions that give us new designs.

Indeed some producers put more of their efforts in copying the work of others vs. new designs, but we hope they might change at some point.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:29 am 
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DLitwin wrote:
BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
Although I would welcome a non-infringing production puzzle greater than 5x5x5, none have yet been made so I have not had any reason to edit that post.


E-cube 7x7 is non-infringing.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:59 am 
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rjp wrote:
DLitwin wrote:
Although I would welcome a non-infringing production puzzle greater than 5x5x5, none have yet been made so I have not had any reason to edit that post.
E-cube 7x7 is non-infringing.
I suppose "infringing" is a poor word to use on my part, as it implies a judgement of infringement by a court after a trial of some sort.
Suffice it to say what is meant is that, from the perspective of this forum and its KO policy, there are no production puzzles greater than 5x5x5 (other than the new V-Cube 8, now) that are not considered KO.

And just to be clear all are welcome to have their own opinion of what may or may not infringe copyright, patent or just plain respectful use of other's designs, but the Admins and Moderators of this forum have the chore of defining what KO means here :)

The E-Cube 7x7x7 is a really interesting CAD design but with without a picture or video of a physical puzzle nor an offer of sale I think we can all agree it is not a "production puzzle" and therefore no KO determination has been warranted.

But discussion of puzzles that are not a V-Cube 8 don't really belong in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Dave :)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:52 am 
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V-Cubes wrote:
It holds the record of being the largest, smoothest and most complex rotational puzzle game in the world!
The possible number of permutations of the V-CUBEâ„¢ 8 3.52*10^211!!!
So the Petaminx, with 975 pieces and 1212 stickers and 3.16 x 10^996 positions just doesn't count?

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:09 am 
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Hello

I suppose now that the V-Cube 8 is out, there can now 'legally' be an official 8x8 conpetition staged by WCA!

ps
I have alredy ordered one.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:25 am 
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DLitwin wrote:
KO stands for Knock Off which means unauthorized copy,

I think that KO is a bad naming. Especially for big cubes, it is quite rare that a puzzle is a verbatim copy of another one. An object may infringe on some claims contained in patents by someone else WHILE not being a copy - just because it adopts some design ideas (for instance conical cuts).

V-Cube 4 is an interesting example. It uses the core locking mechanism from a "KO" puzzle, which is NOT literally a knock off because it uses some of Verdes' designs (conical cuts) and adds own ideas. But, the designer of this "KO" did not patent their locking mechanism, hence that idea was free to use. This means that Verdes' V-Cube 4 is ok because Verdes owns all the (patented) intellectual property, whereas the "KO" may be an illegal product (the matter has not be brought to court AFAIK), even though it adds an interesting new idea to Verdes' design. All the KO manufacturer may try to enforce, at this point, is copyright (which is always present even if not explicitly claimed) on the specific appearance of the core stabilisation mechanism, but if the design is significantly different (and it is), then this road cannot be taken.

V-Cube 3 is another interesting example. It uses conical cuts. It does NOT resemble the pictures in Verdes' patents, but these are just depictions of POSSIBLE embodiments of the invention, they are there for illustrative purposes, and do not claim to exhaust all possible embodiments of the invention. In fact, it seems clear to me that V-Cube 3 is an embodiment of inventions described in Verdes' patent, and even though it is strikingly similar to the Guhong, the latter may be infringing. Again, unless Dayan patented their particular realisation and their patent was held to be valid (which means that this patent would be an improvement patent, and as such it would not exempt the holder from having to get a license for Verdes' one), Verdes Innovations is completely free to, ahem, take inspiration from that.

Patent law is awful (mostly because of the complexity), but it is not completely unfair, and it is not the "monster" that is sometimes portrayed. It does protect the right of inventors, AND it can be abused. But this is an entirely different discussion.

To return to the topic of big cubes, it seems to me that the flat 6x6x6, 7x7x7 and 8x8x8 by that particular manufacturer of KO cubes DO infringe on some of the claims in Verdes' famous patent. Whether the patent is valid, whether these claims are valid, whether this could be enforced in court, well, I have no clue.

Quote:
but the company is not a copy (unless, I suppose someone gets a patent on how to structure a business).
Individual puzzles may be judged as KO. Companies producing a KO puzzles frequently produce other puzzles that are not KO, and we have no reason to discourage them from doing that, in fact we want to encourage them to focus their efforts in directions that give us new designs.

Indeed some producers put more of their efforts in copying the work of others vs. new designs, but we hope they might change at some point.


Amen to that.

Roberto

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:46 pm 
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mocenigo wrote:
DLitwin wrote:
KO stands for Knock Off which means unauthorized copy,

I think that KO is a bad naming. Especially for big cubes, it is quite rare that a puzzle is a verbatim copy of another one. An object may infringe on some claims contained in patents by someone else WHILE not being a copy - just because it adopts some design ideas (for instance conical cuts).

V-Cube 4 is an interesting example. It uses the core locking mechanism from a "KO" puzzle, which is NOT literally a knock off because it uses some of Verdes' designs (conical cuts) and adds own ideas. But, the designer of this "KO" did not patent their locking mechanism, hence that idea was free to use. This means that Verdes' V-Cube 4 is ok because Verdes owns all the (patented) intellectual property, whereas the "KO" may be an illegal product (the matter has not be brought to court AFAIK), even though it adds an interesting new idea to Verdes' design. All the KO manufacturer may try to enforce, at this point, is copyright (which is always present even if not explicitly claimed) on the specific appearance of the core stabilisation mechanism, but if the design is significantly different (and it is), then this road cannot be taken.

V-Cube 3 is another interesting example. It uses conical cuts. It does NOT resemble the pictures in Verdes' patents, but these are just depictions of POSSIBLE embodiments of the invention, they are there for illustrative purposes, and do not claim to exhaust all possible embodiments of the invention. In fact, it seems clear to me that V-Cube 3 is an embodiment of inventions described in Verdes' patent, and even though it is strikingly similar to the Guhong, the latter may be infringing. Again, unless Dayan patented their particular realisation and their patent was held to be valid (which means that this patent would be an improvement patent, and as such it would not exempt the holder from having to get a license for Verdes' one), Verdes Innovations is completely free to, ahem, take inspiration from that.

Patent law is awful (mostly because of the complexity), but it is not completely unfair, and it is not the "monster" that is sometimes portrayed. It does protect the right of inventors, AND it can be abused. But this is an entirely different discussion.

To return to the topic of big cubes, it seems to me that the flat 6x6x6, 7x7x7 and 8x8x8 by that particular manufacturer of KO cubes DO infringe on some of the claims in Verdes' famous patent. Whether the patent is valid, whether these claims are valid, whether this could be enforced in court, well, I have no clue.

Quote:
but the company is not a copy (unless, I suppose someone gets a patent on how to structure a business).
Individual puzzles may be judged as KO. Companies producing a KO puzzles frequently produce other puzzles that are not KO, and we have no reason to discourage them from doing that, in fact we want to encourage them to focus their efforts in directions that give us new designs.

Indeed some producers put more of their efforts in copying the work of others vs. new designs, but we hope they might change at some point.


Amen to that.

Roberto


Well, I have a V-cube 3, and it's definitely a KO of Guhong.
The famous KO company you speak of is in china, where they have no foreign patent law.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:48 pm 
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Gentlemen, please, do not hijack this topic for discussing general KO (or patent or whatever) issues.
This topic is about the V-Cube 8.

Many have expressed doubts that it would ever exist.
Now it is here.

Not many have seen or played with it yet.
Let's wait a few more days and see for ourselves.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:57 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Not many have seen or played with it yet.
Let's wait a few more days and see for ourselves.


Has anyone played with it yet? Has anyone received a prototype that can attest to it's quality. I would love to know if the mechanism is similar to the 6x6 from V Cubes, and if the puzzle has good turning quality.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:18 pm 
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mocenigo wrote:
V-Cube 4 is an interesting example. It uses the core locking mechanism from a "KO" puzzle, which is NOT literally a knock off because it uses some of Verdes' designs (conical cuts) and adds own ideas. But, the designer of this "KO" did not patent their locking mechanism, hence that idea was free to use.

I was under the impression that this was patented by its inventor and it is being used with permission by another company for many large cubes but not being used with permission by Verdes. I remember when the V-4 first came out that there was some discussion about this and I think someone linked to the patent. I'll have to try to find it. I wonder if the V-8 uses this (I suspect that it does). Also of note is that the TomZ/Calvin 4x4x6 also uses this.

edit: here it is: viewtopic.php?p=296011#p296011


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Finally, an 8x8 grid!

So... anyone for six simultaneous games of chess with variable squares?

:lol: :P 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:38 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
mocenigo wrote:
V-Cube 4 is an interesting example. It uses the core locking mechanism from a "KO" puzzle, which is NOT literally a knock off because it uses some of Verdes' designs (conical cuts) and adds own ideas. But, the designer of this "KO" did not patent their locking mechanism, hence that idea was free to use.

I was under the impression that this was patented by its inventor and it is being used with permission by another company for many large cubes but not being used with permission by Verdes. I remember when the V-4 first came out that there was some discussion about this and I think someone linked to the patent. I'll have to try to find it. I wonder if the V-8 uses this (I suspect that it does). Also of note is that the TomZ/Calvin 4x4x6 also uses this.

edit: here it is: http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/view ... 11#p296011

Ok I stand corrected. Then there must be some agreement (maybe a silent one: I don't sue you - you don't sue me -- which is dangerous, as patents de facto expire if you do not enforce them). However, I stop here and will not discuss patent matters further in this thread, following Konrad's suggestion.

Roberto

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:47 pm 
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AMatureCuber wrote:
Hello

I suppose now that the V-Cube 8 is out, there can now 'legally' be an official 8x8 conpetition staged by WCA!

ps
I have alredy ordered one.


Ordered one as well! I cannot wait to put my hands on it and report. If it does not get delayed I will carry it with me to my next business trip ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:10 pm 
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I assume that the mech will be the same as the v-cube 4 and will also be adjustable, otherwise what would be the point in releasing a new 8x8? You'd think they would send samples to kevin hays to test?
Heck even CrazyBadCuber? HaHaHa! Only joking Dan?


Last edited by AMatureCuber on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:25 pm 
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UPS has announced a parcel for next Tuesday. :D

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:32 pm 
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Correction! Sorry, I meant the 8x8 and not the 6x6.
I'm still waiting for my UPS tracking number.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Mine should arrive on Monday, it just landed in Munich a few minutes ago. I hope that it turns well and doesn't "click" too much. Well, we'll see it soon.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:26 am 
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V-Cube 8 appears cheaper then 'other' version.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:08 am 
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AMatureCuber wrote:
V-Cube 8 appears cheaper then 'other' version.
Just a note: If you are going to be critical, or laudatory, please provide the basis for your opinion. This is a discussion forum. Expressing opinion is fine of course, but backing it up with the reasons for that opinion are far more valuable. What makes you say one appears cheaper than the other? I haven't seen sufficient pictures of the V-Cube 8 to be able to tell much of anything.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:13 am 
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hello
DLitwin
I meant cheaper as in the V-Cube 8 is cheaper in Price than the 'other' version available. Not cheaper product or plastic. I like V-Cubes. I buy them and the other versions. KO dosen't interest me because I buy a puzzle if I like it. I buy vcubes as well.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:50 am 
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It's pretty. It turns nicely. I'm glad it's finally on the market. But what do I know of speed solving and corner cutting. I just collect.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:51 am 
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Discussion of various design issues in this thread have been moved to Conical vs. Cylindrical cuts.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:58 am 
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Today received another beauty for my collection ! :D

The first impression is very good. Turning is quite ok.



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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:01 am 
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Wow. How did you get it so quickly?
Valentin wrote:
Today received another beauty for my collection ! :D

The first impression is very good. Turning is quite ok.



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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:12 am 
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rline wrote:
Wow. How did you get it so quickly?



I'm surprised too. I ordered it 6.01.2014.

On the other hand, Slovenia is not so far from Greece... :)


Edit: I ordered it 8.01.2014 !


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:23 am 
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Christophe from the Puzzle Photography group received his apparently from the image below. I'm interested to see how it holds up performance wise compared to the current KO on the market.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:41 am 
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It looks nice on the picture above.
Mine is announced for tomorrow.
I'll make a picture and write how I find it (I cannot compare it with any KOs, but with the V-Cubes 6 and 7).

EDIT:
Surprise, surprise: The UPS-man rang twice.
I did not complain that he was early by one day. :lol:

The usual Verdes packaging:

Image

In my eyes, very well produced (no production marks as on my earlier V-Cubes. I have got 3 sets - 5x5 + 6x6 + 7x7 - in 2008 and 2009)
The stickers are perfect (no need for Cubesmith tiles as I had felt necessary for all my others):

Image

Close up of some stickers:

Image

Scrambled:

Image

You can enlarge all images by clicking onto them.

Out of the box it turns similarly well as the V-Cube 7. No clicking mechanism.
If you like the Verdes 7x7x7, you will like this one too.

I'm no speedcuber and can compare only with other V-Cubes.

EDIT: If I can ever get Cubesmith tiles, I will order them immediately. I like to know that these will last forever.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Wow.. nice pictures! :D


Curious: is the puzzle tensionable?


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:43 pm 
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Glad it turns well. I will put my order in.

I'm looking forward to seeing some crazy patterns for this in the patterns thread...

-d


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:27 pm 
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Kattenvriendin wrote:
Curious: is the puzzle tensionable?

Yes, it is. The mechanism is actually based on a 4x4 core, similar to this one:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15551&hilit

Zem wrote:
Christophe from the Puzzle Photography group received his apparently from the image below. I'm interested to see how it holds up performance wise compared to the current KO on the market.
I just wanted to upload a picture of mine, but it looks like you did it allready. For the performance, they are about the same, but the V-Cube is slightly bigger.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:11 pm 
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Wow, I don't even have a tracking number yet. It is nice to see that they are turning well. The pillowed shape is starting to grow on me, especially for the larger puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:52 pm 
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I have scrambled (see Picture above) and solved it once.
No surprises, no pops or any other issues.
I have not yet lubricated it.
I'm sure that after a decent breaking in and some lubrication this is a very good puzzle.

Probably, I shall never disassemble it and so I can say nothing about its construction.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:59 am 
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misterchris wrote:
I just wanted to upload a picture of mine, but it looks like you did it allready. For the performance, they are about the same, but the V-Cube is slightly bigger.


Sorry about that. I just thought it was a great picture and wanted to share it ASAP.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:00 am 
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In case anyone is wondering,we would like to let you know that we have done the V8 together with Mf8. They respect our IP(not like Shengshou and many others) and they admitted that even this 8x8 that they have designed in the past was infringing our patent and asked for co-operation. So we now produce it together. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:26 am 
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NEWCUBES wrote:
In case anyone is wondering,we would like to let you know that we have done the V8 together with Mf8. They respect our IP(not like Shengshou and many others) and they admitted that even this 8x8 that they have designed in the past was infringing our patent and asked for co-operation. So we now produce it together. :-)
Great! :D Thank you for the information from V-Cubes.

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:42 am 
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Konrad wrote:
I have scrambled (see Picture above) and solved it once.
No surprises, no pops or any other issues.
I have not yet lubricated it.
I'm sure that after a decent breaking in and some lubrication this is a very good puzzle.

Probably, I shall never disassemble it and so I can say nothing about its construction.


Umpf. I have ordered it immediately and I still have no active tracking number...

Roberto

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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:42 am 
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I would mail them in that case, maybe something they can look into.


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 Post subject: Re: V-Cube 8 is available!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:14 am 
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Kattenvriendin wrote:
I would mail them in that case, maybe something they can look into.


Well they sent me a tracking number which is, apparently, not active. I'll wait.

Roberto

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