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 Post subject: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:30 pm 
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I got a start yesterday. I won't have much time to work on this today but I hope to get more done tomorrow.

This is NOT intended to be an exact copy of E-Cube's 5x5x5 nor will it even be a 5x5x5 when I'm done with it.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Here is the headway I made today...
Attachment:
Pic02.png
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Completed:
5x5x5 Corner
5x5x5 Wing
5x5x5 Edge
5x5x5 X-Center
5x5x5 T-Center

Five done and if I were making a 5x5x5 it would be five to go. Since I'm not making a 5x5x5 I believe it is 13 to go.

Enjoy...
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:27 pm 
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The 3x3x3 Edges and Corners are done...

Attachment:
Pic03.png
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Attachment:
Pic04.png
Pic04.png [ 358.27 KiB | Viewed 2316 times ]


Enjoy,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Up to this point my puzzle has just been a 5x5x5. It will now start to deviate. My puzzle uses two different types of face centers. Here are both.
Attachment:
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And a partial assembly using both types of face centers.
Attachment:
Pic05.png
Pic05.png [ 390.76 KiB | Viewed 2274 times ]


Anyone what to guess what I'm doing before I make the last 8 parts?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:10 pm 
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I'm going to guess that the sides with the center pieces that don't have the rounded corners restrict the movement of the cube by making you have to turn the 3x3 with an outer layer turn, thus resulting in some sides only being able to do double turns.

Now to see if I'm right.... 8-)
The wait begins...


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:31 pm 
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Elrog wrote:
...thus resulting in some sides only being able to do double turns.
Close... Here is a partial assembly with one of the possible cores.

By "double turns" I assume you mean the top two layers MUST turn together? Earlier I had taken that comment to mean each face had two independent layers which could turn. That is true of a 5x5x5. This puzzle only has one independent layer per face. In that regard its more like a 3x3x3 then a 5x5x5.

Attachment:
Pic07.png
Pic07.png [ 396.75 KiB | Viewed 2225 times ]


Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:18 am 
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Ok... just finished the last 8 parts. Does this help?
Attachment:
Mercury.png
Mercury.png [ 341.11 KiB | Viewed 2207 times ]

Attachment:
Venus.png
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Earth.png
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Mars.png
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Jupiter.png
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Saturn.png
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Attachment:
Uranus.png
Uranus.png [ 354.42 KiB | Viewed 2207 times ]

Attachment:
Neptune.png
Neptune.png [ 356.17 KiB | Viewed 2207 times ]


Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:23 am 
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Oh Carl, you and 5x5x5's right now...

Also, I think the titles of your pictures reveal your intentions ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:37 am 
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I am proud to be an inspiration to other designers, but I would never have expected this. :shock: Well done, Carl. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:15 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Elrog wrote:
...thus resulting in some sides only being able to do double turns.
Close... Here is a partial assembly with one of the possible cores.

By "double turns" I assume you mean the top two layers MUST turn together? Earlier I had taken that comment to mean each face had two independent layers which could turn. That is true of a 5x5x5. This puzzle only has one independent layer per face. In that regard its more like a 3x3x3 then a 5x5x5.
[/attachment]

Yes, I meant you must turn the top two layers together assuming that the top side has the non rounded center.


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Elrog wrote:
Yes, I meant you must turn the top two layers together assuming that the top side has the non rounded center.
Let's call the outer faces the 5x5x5 faces, the layers below those let's call the 3x3x3 faces, and the central slice layer let's call the core slice. On this puzzle the 3x3x3 face isn't independent on any of the faces. It is either tied to the 5x5x5 face and moves as you describe... OR it is tied to the core slice and moves together with it.

Back on Jan 31, 2011 in this post, I asked:
wwwmwww wrote:
How hard would it be to modify a 5x5x5 to turn like this?
At the time I didn't know the answer. I quickly learned that it would be much much harder then I had hoped. In that same thread GuiltyBystander pointed out that these uniaxial puzzles are actually "older brothers" of the Crazy Plus 3x3x3s. Here is the image which he used to show how to map the 5x5x5 versions to the circle cubes.
Attachment:
circle-555 (1).png
circle-555 (1).png [ 97.45 KiB | Viewed 2082 times ]
The first mechanism which allowed one of these puzzles to be built was designed by Tom van der Zanden in Feburary 2011. It was the Deep Uniaxial 3x3x3 seen here. This is what the mechanism looks like. This is the 5x5x5 version (or superset) of the Venus Crazy Plus 3x3x3.
Image
I then took Tom's design and modified it with his permission to make the Mercury version which I called the Mercury Uniaxial 3x3x3. You can see how the mechanism was modified here.
Image
The other puzzle I REALLY wanted to make at the time was the Shallow Uniaxial 3x3x3 or what would have been the Saturn version. I didn't see a way Tom's mechanism would allow it. To make the puzzle one needed a 5x5x5 which has a full functional 3x3x3 inside and that was part of my motivation for making the Real5x5x5 discussed in this thread. But it wasn't until I saw E-Cubes 5x5x5 here that I realized how I could make the rest of the basic 5x5x5 Uniaxial puzzles. With this set of parts.
Attachment:
PartsList.png
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I now have a kit which can be used to make any one of the 8 puzzles which are the 5x5x5 Supersets of these Crazy Plus 3x3x3s.
Image
Note these puzzle will have ALL the pieces present on the Crazy Plus 3x3x3 puzzles plus more. However these will be subsets of the Crazy Plus Planet puzzles yet to be made from my Real5x5x5 as that will again add more pieces. With the Real5x5x5 versions you'll be able to solve ALL the pieces from these E-Cube5x5x5 versions PLUS you will be able to solve all the inner 3x3x3 pieces which are actually present on the E-Cube5x5x5 version but they are hidden away inside the puzzle.

It took me two years... but I now know how hard it was to modify a 5x5x5 to get it to turn the way I wanted it to. The key to the problem was starting from the right 5x5x5 and that simply didn't exist until E-Cube posted his design.

I made a deal with Tom to allow me to offer his Deep Uniaxial 3x3x3 in my Shapeways shop back in 2011 but to be honest... to date I haven't sold a single Deep Uniaxial 3x3x3 or a Mercury Uniaxial 3x3x3. Tom came out ahead on that one. I still have both of the original puzzles in my possession and they've now been displayed at 2 IPPs and 1 G4G. If there is interest in this kit which would allow any of the 8 puzzles to be made let me know. I will be sending the design to get printed here soon and if it works well I'm tempted to offer the first printing to E-Cubes for free if he's willing to let me offer this kit in my shop. If I did, it would replace both of the Uniaxial puzzles I currently have listed there. If there is no interest, I'll just keep the original for myself. And if E-Cubes doesn't want me to offer this in my shop then I'll also just keep the original for myself. Technically E-Cubes hasn't shown a finished 5x5x5 puzzle yet so I think if I wanted to be nasty I could offer it anyways. But I won't do that for 2 reasons... One, E-Cubes is a new member and I'm not going to take advantage of his ignorance of some of the KO policy details (or at least my understanding of them). Two, E-Cubes has been open (well except for who he is exactly) and willing to share original designs even before they are finished. I do that myself and I certainly want to encourage that openness and as far as I'm concerned this basic 5x5x5 design is his. If he and I are able to make a deal I also want to point out that this kit is designed in such a way that it can NOT be simply assembled into a fully functional 5x5x5. The core you would need for that is NOT present in the kit and even if it was, the kit will only have 5 of the type of face centers which would be needed, not a full set of 6.

Carl

P.S. E-Cubes if you have any concerns PLEASE PM me. I plan on PMing you once I have a finished puzzle in hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:17 pm 
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One other question... The name "Uniaxial" implies one axis is different then the others. It was actually thought up when I was just thinking about the Shallow and Deep Uniaxial puzzles before the connection with all 8 Crazy Plus 3x3x3s was fully understood. I stuck with the name Uniaxial as Tom's design really only allowed for 1 of the 3 axes to be modified so it still fit. However this kit now allows each of the 6 faces to be changed back and forth from Type 0 to a Type 1 face simply by exchanging parts. I'm no longer stuck with just making changes on a single axis so the name Uniaxial doesn't seem to fit all that well any more. Should I...

(1) Stick with the name "Planet" Uniaxial 3x3x3 (i.e. Mercury Uniaxial 3x3x3) to describe these as that name has been in use for 2 years and everyone already knows what it means.
(2) Come up with something more appropriate? Visually these will appear to be 5x5x5 puzzles but each axis will have only 3 turnable layers (2 faces and a slice layer) so logically they are 3x3x3s. It's just the cut depth of the various faces that changes. I'm open to suggestions...

Hmmm... there is a concept I believe called High Low Design. I think it typically means high end / low cost but there may be other uses. How does the name The High-Low 3x3x3 Kit sound? Where high and low refer to the two cut depths used for the 3x3x3 faces. Then the 8 puzzles which can be made from the kit can then be called:

The Mercury High-Low 3x3x3
The Venus High-Low 3x3x3
The Earth High-Low 3x3x3
and so on...

Thoughts?

Carl

P.S. New picture to share...
Attachment:
ShapewaysImage.jpg
ShapewaysImage.jpg [ 62.02 KiB | Viewed 2051 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:27 pm 
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E-Cubes has proposed the name Double-Depth 3x3x3. So I think the kit would be The Double-Depth 3x3x3 Kit and a single puzzle that could be made from the kit would be called the Mercury Double-Depth 3x3x3 for example. Thoughts? Any other suggestions?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:45 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
E-Cubes has proposed the name Double-Depth 3x3x3. So I think the kit would be The Double-Depth 3x3x3 Kit and a single puzzle that could be made from the kit would be called the Mercury Double-Depth 3x3x3 for example. Thoughts? Any other suggestions?
Instead of Double-Depth why not try to make a portmanteau word like DoDep or DubDep (or Dubstep:lol: ) or somesuch? Or just DD?

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Last edited by Gus on Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:25 pm 
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After viewing your posts again, I have decided that I am fine with you posting your "DoDep" 3x3x3 puzzle, as it is actually quite different from my E-CUBE 5x5x5.
I personally think that the Neptune version is the coolest. :)
I suggest putting a 1 on shallower faces, and a 2 on deeper faces. I am very interested in this design! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:59 pm 
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Name suggestion: In-depth cubes (short for "incosistent", of course).


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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:39 pm 
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E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
After viewing your posts again, I have decided that I am fine with you posting your "DoDep" 3x3x3 puzzle, as it is actually quite different from my E-CUBE 5x5x5.
I personally think that the Neptune version is the coolest. :)
I suggest putting a 1 on shallower faces, and a 2 on deeper faces. I am very interested in this design! :mrgreen:
Thank you very much. The first one is being printed by Shapeways this week. As for how to tell the two types of faces apart a 1 and a 2 may be the best way to go. I was thinking about having a circular cut out on the center sticker for the 1 faces (to imply the top layer turns freely) and a square cut out on the center sticker for the 2 faces (to imply that layer is locked to the one below). But a 1 and a 2 should be even more direct. Thanks...

Oh and I like the name DoDep 3x3x3. I'll call this the DoDep 3x3x3 Kit. I'd toyed with the idea of just going with DD but someone... likely myself eventually... would just sticker one with a single color so it could be called the DD Boob Cube.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:39 pm 
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I have decided that I will make my own Neptune version, out of an EastSheen 4x4x4, and I would like to use the name offset plane 3x3x3. I also had an idea for using a 7x7x7, with 6 types of turning: outer layer, outer 2 layers, 3 layers, inner 2 slice layers, shallow slice, and deep slice. It would be called a thricedeep 4x4x4. :mrgreen:
What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:49 pm 
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E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I have decided that I will make my own Neptune version, out of an EastSheen 4x4x4, and I would like to use the name offset plane 3x3x3. I also had an idea for using a 7x7x7, with 6 types of turning: outer layer, outer 2 layers, 3 layers, inner 2 slice layers, shallow slice, and deep slice. It would be called a thricedeep 4x4x4. :mrgreen:
What do you think?
Nice... not sure how you'll make this out of an EastSheen 4x4x4 but I'd love to see how you pull that off. You should post pictures of the build.

Also you may want to read the original thread where this topic was first discussed.
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20321

At the time I was thinking of just varying cut depth by axis so I had named the first 2 ideas the shallow and the deep uniaxial 3x3x3 puzzles as the cuts on 1 axis would be different (shallower or deeper) then the other axes. But I also thought of the idea of what happens if ALL 3 axes have different depths. In that case you get a TriDep 3x3x3 or what I called a Biaxial or Anisotropic 3x3x3 in that thread. Here is a rough animation that I made to show what it would look like.

Image

To make this I believe you need a 7x7x7 which has a 5x5x5 and a 3x3x3 inside. Which believe it or not I think I know how to do that now. But I want to finish up the puzzles already on my plate before I start in on something else this crazy.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:59 pm 
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E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I personally think that the Neptune version is the coolest. :)
The Neptune DoDep is together. Here it is with the other puzzles I worked on this weekend.
Attachment:
Neptune.png
Neptune.png [ 384.04 KiB | Viewed 992 times ]

It only has 3 screws in it at the moment and it still does a good job of holding itself together. I have to say it was trickier to assemble then I was expecting. It took between 2 and 3 hours to get it together but it was a very poor Shapeways print, probably my poorest to date. There was lots of very compacted powder in all the groves. I spend 2 hours last weekend blowing it out with an air compressor and now that its dyed I realize I still didn't get all of it. Though once its fully broken in I think it will be very very nice. It already functions as designed but its a bit stiff due to the extra powder making things tight.

One thing I have learned... the kit that allows you to make all 8 versions is sort of a waste as once its together you'll never want to take it apart again. So when I add this to Shapeways I'll likely put up the 8 planets as separate models.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:39 pm 
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The fillets are smaller than I usually use, though I don't know how well it turns with that geometry. Is that possibly why it is your worst print? I think it looks pretty well made. :?

P.S. The mechanism you used seems like it is mostly the E-Cube 5x5x5, but the centerpieces and conical cuts remind me of the V-Cube 5.

P.S.#2 I have an idea of how to make a speedcube version of the Neptune DoDep 3x3x3. Do you mind if I post my design in this thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Reverse engineering an E-Cube 5x5x5
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:46 pm 
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E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
The fillets are smaller than I usually use, though I don't know how well it turns with that geometry. Is that possibly why it is your worst print? I think it looks pretty well made. :?
Poor print may be the wrong term. It was a very 'dirty' print. The print itself I think is fine. But it had a ton of very compacted powder left in the parts of the mechanism that kept pieces from fitting together well. I used a needle to break it up and an air compressor to blow it out as best as I could last weekend. I then boiled the parts in water to prep them for dying and there was enough powder left in the parts to turn the water white. And then this weekend after the parts were dyed I realized that I still had powder in gaps that was making it more difficult then usual to assemble the puzzle. I'm probably still working powder out of the puzzle. I believe that once all the powder is out it will be a great puzzle. It works fine now... its just stiff. Its just that I've never delt with this much powder this compacted before. Normally powder in these types of locatons is very loose and blows out very easily with an air compressor. I'm not sure why this print was so different. Maybe the powder had been compressed far more then usual before the print was made. Maybe moisture got into the powder at some stage making it far more difficult to get out. But those are just guesses.
E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
P.S. The mechanism you used seems like it is mostly the E-Cube 5x5x5, but the centerpieces and conical cuts remind me of the V-Cube 5.
In my mind its basically an E-Cube 5x5x5 minus some of the speed cube elements and modified to make it a Neptune DoDep. The V-Cube 5 can't be modified into a Neptune DoDep. If it could have been, I'd have done that years ago. One needs the interior 3x3x3 parts that are lacking in the V-Cube 5 (and for that mater all produced 5x5x5 puzzles).
E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
P.S.#2 I have an idea of how to make a speedcube version of the Neptune DoDep 3x3x3. Do you mind if I post my design in this thread?
Sure... but I have plans to offer my DoDep puzzles in my Shapeways shop and I should be able to demonstate a functional puzzle via a video this week. I haven't ordered stickers for it yet but I'd like to claim the DoDep puzzles as mine. I currently have the parts needed to make all 8 but I really don't want to take this one apart again. You are welcome to model and make your own but I'd prefer you not offer yours for sale. Technically I can't really make that claim till I have presented a finished puzzle in the new puzzle section which will be a few weeks as I need stickers but I'm close enough that I don't expect anyone to beat me there.

Carl

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