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 Post subject: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:50 pm 
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NXTgen wrote:
My story is usually when I bring a shapeways puzzle I designed (Have to show this one soon...) And They say "YOU did not make that!" I explain I designed it in Solidworks, but say 3D modelling program for better understanding, then say a service 3D printed the parts for me, and occasionally have to explain in simple ways. I pull my laptop out and show the models and each action done to make it "look that way".

There are a few that still deny I made the parts, and instead downloaded them, or had someone else make them for me. I find this funny, but sad sometimes.

Not wishing to be nasty but if you use a company like Shapeways to make the parts then you didn't actually make the puzzle, sorry. I type this with dirty hands and soar fingers from sanding and welding parts of a puzzle I am making. That takes nothing away from the incredible designs people are coming up with but it's not actual puzzle making. Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either. But unless you get your hands dirty (not just from dying parts) you ain't made no puzzle (bad grammar intentional).

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Not wishing to be nasty but if you use a company like Shapeways to make the parts then you didn't actually make the puzzle, sorry. I type this with dirty hands and soar fingers from sanding and welding parts of a puzzle I am making. That takes nothing away from the incredible designs people are coming up with but it's not actual puzzle making. Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either. But unless you get your hands dirty (not just from dying parts) you ain't made no puzzle (bad grammar intentional).

I strongly disagree on this one. It takes a lot of work and thought to come up with mechanisms and designs for twisty puzzles, especially those which can't be possibly made from current mass-produced puzzles. And you also do realize that mass-produced puzzles have to be designed and produced by others too, right? Does that mean that those designer companies didn't make the puzzle either?

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Last edited by benpuzzles on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:07 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Not wishing to be nasty but if you use a company like Shapeways to make the parts then you didn't actually make the puzzle, sorry. I type this with dirty hands and soar fingers from sanding and welding parts of a puzzle I am making. That takes nothing away from the incredible designs people are coming up with but it's not actual puzzle making. Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either. But unless you get your hands dirty (not just from dying parts) you ain't made no puzzle (bad grammar intentional).

This screams hand modder snobbery / elitism and serves no purpose other than to try to take something away from from NXTgen. So despite your wishes, it comes across as nasty.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:11 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
Not wishing to be nasty but if you use a company like Shapeways to make the parts then you didn't actually make the puzzle, sorry. I type this with dirty hands and soar fingers from sanding and welding parts of a puzzle I am making. That takes nothing away from the incredible designs people are coming up with but it's not actual puzzle making. Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either. But unless you get your hands dirty (not just from dying parts) you ain't made no puzzle (bad grammar intentional).

True, but in the design aspect I have to disagree. It takes a lot of work and thought to come up with mechanisms and designs for twisty puzzles, especially those which can't be possibly made from current mass-produced puzzles. And you also do realize that mass-produced puzzles have to be designed and produced by others too, right? Does that mean that those companies didn't make the puzzle either?


I think he is just stating the difference between hand making it and having an outside company 3d print it. There is a clear difference between hand making puzzles and designing them in a CAD program. Most puzzle companies (at least as far as I know) design the puzzles then have them produced and molded at a factory somewhere else and then distributed by another 3rd party. Fisher, my school will hopefully be getting a 3D printer this year so when I print puzzles on that would you consider me making it or is your problem that it is machine made? If so that's like saying your dremel, sandpaper, ect. made your puzzle and not you. As far as dumb things I've heard non-cubers say about cubing, I've pretty much heard it all at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:20 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Not wishing to be nasty but if you use a company like Shapeways to make the parts then you didn't actually make the puzzle, sorry. I type this with dirty hands and soar fingers from sanding and welding parts of a puzzle I am making. That takes nothing away from the incredible designs people are coming up with but it's not actual puzzle making. Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either. But unless you get your hands dirty (not just from dying parts) you ain't made no puzzle (bad grammar intentional).

That's definitely the dumbest thing I have ever heard, period.

Sorry Tony, but if you're not making your own plastic from crude oil, and creating original parts from that plastic using tools that you have made yourself by forging steel from crude iron ore, then you're not making your own puzzles, either. And I bet you don't make your own sand paper. You get the point.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:04 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Not wishing to be nasty but if you use a company like Shapeways to make the parts then you didn't actually make the puzzle, sorry. I type this with dirty hands and soar fingers from sanding and welding parts of a puzzle I am making. That takes nothing away from the incredible designs people are coming up with but it's not actual puzzle making. Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either. But unless you get your hands dirty (not just from dying parts) you ain't made no puzzle (bad grammar intentional).

What Tony's point is you are not technically MAKING the parts of the puzzle, shapeways is 3d printing it for you. But, Tony still does come across a bit nasty. The people who use shapeways are still authentic puzzle creators, and we all know that sometimes the design and quirks is harder than the printing process. Shapeways is just a tool for people who do not want to spend quite a long time handmaking their pieces with preicision, and wish to take advantage of 21st century tools.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
NXTgen wrote:
My story is usually when I bring a shapeways puzzle I designed (Have to show this one soon...) And They say "YOU did not make that!" I explain I designed it in Solidworks, but say 3D modelling program for better understanding, then say a service 3D printed the parts for me, and occasionally have to explain in simple ways. I pull my laptop out and show the models and each action done to make it "look that way".

There are a few that still deny I made the parts, and instead downloaded them, or had someone else make them for me. I find this funny, but sad sometimes.

Not wishing to be nasty but if you use a company like Shapeways to make the parts then you didn't actually make the puzzle, sorry. I type this with dirty hands and soar fingers from sanding and welding parts of a puzzle I am making. That takes nothing away from the incredible designs people are coming up with but it's not actual puzzle making. Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either. But unless you get your hands dirty (not just from dying parts) you ain't made no puzzle (bad grammar intentional).
I only said it that way because it makes the people I talked to understand a little better. I actually try my best with hand modding, but don't have the skill or craftsmanship of it. No offense taken, but that's the way I explain it without explaining the difference between hand-modding and 3D printing.

Sorry if that came out offensive Tony, I didn't intend it that way.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:35 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
Not wishing to be nasty but if you use a company like Shapeways to make the parts then you didn't actually make the puzzle, sorry. I type this with dirty hands and soar fingers from sanding and welding parts of a puzzle I am making. That takes nothing away from the incredible designs people are coming up with but it's not actual puzzle making. Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either. But unless you get your hands dirty (not just from dying parts) you ain't made no puzzle (bad grammar intentional).

That's definitely the dumbest thing I have ever heard, period.

Sorry Tony, but if you're not making your own plastic from crude oil, and creating original parts from that plastic using tools that you have made yourself by forging steel from crude iron ore, then you're not making your own puzzles, either. And I bet you don't make your own sand paper. You get the point.

I pick this answer since it is the most extreme. Whether I make puzzles or not is irrelevant. That fact remains that if you design a puzzle on computer and get it 3D printed you haven't made a puzzle. If you disagree then please tell me what Shapeways does. Your argument nullifies their existence.
You seem more concerned with rating a person. If that is the case then yes someone who creates all tools and materials rates higher than someone who doesn't and you can if you wish create a list which is probably topped by Aleh and his hand made 4x4x4 and bottomed by any number of 3D printer users. That's your argument not mine.
Your reply infers that you believe design and construction to mean the same thing?

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Last edited by Tony Fisher on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:36 pm 
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NXTgen wrote:

Sorry if that came out offensive Tony, I didn't intend it that way.

I was not offended at all. I didn't mean my reply to be either.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
NXTgen wrote:

Sorry if that came out offensive Tony, I didn't intend it that way.

I was not offended at all. I didn't mean my reply to be either.

I have a lot to learn still...

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:45 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
I strongly disagree on this one. It takes a lot of work and thought to come up with mechanisms and designs for twisty puzzles, especially those which can't be possibly made from current mass-produced puzzles. And you also do realize that mass-produced puzzles have to be designed and produced by others too, right? Does that mean that those designer companies didn't make the puzzle either?

However much work it takes to design a puzzle doesn't mean you have made a puzzle. Regarding the companies it's really just down to what words we use and isn't really relevant. I think we all know that Uwe Meffert doesn't actually make puzzles so it's something taken for granted when we talk about Mefferts new puzzles.
None of this attacks anyone and is simple fact so I have no idea why people are taking offence.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:52 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
I think we all know that Uwe Meffert doesn't actually make puzzles so it's something taken for granted when we talk about Mefferts new puzzles.

Did you seriously just say that? What about the Pyraminx, Megaminx, etc?
Tony Fisher wrote:
None of this attacks anyone and is simple fact so I have no idea why people are taking offense.

Since when was this "simple" fact? It's an opinion more than anything else.
I'm not trying to start an argument, or even take offense, but I'm concerned about your attitude towards this. :?

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
None of this attacks anyone and is simple fact so I have no idea why people are taking offence.

Because of the sheer hypocrisy, because by your logic, then you don't "make" puzzles either. In fact nobody really makes anything, because we are all using things (software, tools, raw materials, etc.) made by other people. In your case you even use somebody elses fully functional puzzle and just change a few bits, then have the cheek to say you "made" it. So get off your high horse. :lol:

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Last edited by KelvinS on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:59 pm 
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Anyone else see the irony that this conversation is taking place in the `dumbest things you've ever heard a non-cuber say thread`? :P :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:02 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
I think we all know that Uwe Meffert doesn't actually make puzzles so it's something taken for granted when we talk about Mefferts new puzzles.

Did you seriously just say that? What about the Pyraminx, Megaminx, etc?

The Pyraminx and Megaminx you have at home was not made by Uwe Meffert. It was made by a Chinese factory. We all know that, right?

benpuzzles wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
None of this attacks anyone and is simple fact so I have no idea why people are taking offense.

Since when was this "simple" fact? It's an opinion more than anything else.
I'm not trying to start an argument, or even take offense, but I'm concerned about your attitude towards this. :?

In my mind this is good natured though it's not always easy to type the words that way as well as making the points. It's a simple fact that if you pay Shapeways to make your puzzle then you haven't made it yourself. How can that not be true? Remember all of this was in reply to an earlier post and not some random attack on CADers

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:06 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
None of this attacks anyone and is simple fact so I have no idea why people are taking offence.

Because of the sheer hypocrisy, because by your logic, then you don't "make" puzzles either. In fact nobody really makes anything, because we are all using things (software, tools, raw materials, etc.) made by other people. In your case you even use somebody elses fully functional puzzle and just change a few bits, then have the cheek to say you "made" it. So get off your high horse. :lol:

I refer you back to my answer that you obviously missed.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Tony, to be precise, Shapeways don't make any puzzles, they make the parts, just like other companies make the screws, washers and springs, and many of the actual puzzle parts that you use.

You really have said the dumbest things I have heard (just to get back on topic).

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Last edited by KelvinS on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
benpuzzles wrote:
Did you seriously just say that? What about the Pyraminx, Megaminx, etc?

The Pyraminx and Megaminx you have at home was not made by Uwe Meffert. It was made by a Chinese factory. We all know that, right?

I'm referring to his original prototypes HE made (like his pyraminx in the 70's).
Tony Fisher wrote:
In my mind this is good natured though it's not always easy to type the words that way as well as making the points. It's a simple fact that if you pay Shapeways to make your puzzle then you haven't made it yourself. How can that not be true? Remember all of this was in reply to an earlier post and not some random attack on CADers.

Then, what if I paid them to make masters and casted the parts myself? Did I make it then?
My point is that no matter how the parts are made, I have ownership to the puzzle and design. It wouldn't have been MADE if I didn't design it. Therefore, I was involved in the making of the puzzle.
I wish to close this conversation and get the thread back on topic.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:16 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
In my mind this is good natured though it's not always easy to type the words that way as well as making the points. It's a simple fact that if you pay Shapeways to make your puzzle then you haven't made it yourself. How can that not be true? Remember all of this was in reply to an earlier post and not some random attack on CADers.

Then, what if I paid them to make masters and casted the parts myself? Did I make it then?


Or what if you have access to a 3D printer and printed it yourself rather than having a 3rd party make it?

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:18 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Tony, to be precise, Shapeways don't make the puzzles, they make the parts, just like other companies make the screws, washers and springs that you use.

You really have said the dumbest things I have heard (just to get back on topic).

Ok you win. I'll notify the authorities of the changes-

Assembling a puzzle = making it.
Tools = A company that does all the work for you
A true puzzle builder = a cheat and a liar

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:20 pm 
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This is actually a very familiar topic in the Art world. Marcel Duchamp famously expressed a long time ago, that the Art is the idea, not the object. I think the same holds here.

EDIT: To be clear.. a hand modder and a CAD designer both have `ideas`.

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Last edited by Burgo on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:22 pm 
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Are we distinguishing between puzzle designers and puzzle makers?
Is there the insinuation of valuing one more then the other?
Brilliant makers like Traiphum and Gafitiu are quite forthcoming when they direct me toward 3D designers if the puzzle that I seek can't be effectively made from modding or designing. Other makers are also hesitant to agree to make a puzzle because of the time that's needed to make a certain puzzle, even if they had the skills to do so, leaving me to turn to the designer.

Is higher value given to that which can not be replaced?
If a designer can bring a creation to reality without a maker, and hence replace the maker with a printer, and if such a printer can achieve detail and precision that a maker cannot, does this place more ultimate value on the designer, and suggest rendering the maker potentially obsolete?

When I hold one of Traiphum or Rapheal's mods, then I certainly think not!

As a collector, I'm grateful for both.

In any case, designers be proud, as makers are not needed for what you do,
and makers be proud, because you've blazed a trail with your minds, hands and tools to spur the imagination and carved something brilliant out of what was once a slab of plastic with your own two hands.

Well don't take what I write here too seriously, as I didn't use a pen and paper, but only a computer and perhaps a 2D printer, so I guess I didn't really write it :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
The Pyraminx and Megaminx you have at home was not made by Uwe Meffert. It was made by a Chinese factory. We all know that, right?

As are the base puzzles for 98% of your creations. This is no more a crutch than a 3D printer. Your hypocrisy is hilarious. You're an elitist whiner.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:28 pm 
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Tony, my point is not that you are wrong, but that you are being hypocritical by claiming that your method of making puzzles somehow counts and others don't. Fundamentally there is no difference, as we are all using bits made by others and then modifying and/or assembling them. Frankly, I don't care how you define the word "make", but at least make sure you are consistent.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:29 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
benpuzzles wrote:
Did you seriously just say that? What about the Pyraminx, Megaminx, etc?

The Pyraminx and Megaminx you have at home was not made by Uwe Meffert. It was made by a Chinese factory. We all know that, right?

I'm referring to his original prototypes HE made (like his pyraminx in the 70's).
Tony Fisher wrote:
In my mind this is good natured though it's not always easy to type the words that way as well as making the points. It's a simple fact that if you pay Shapeways to make your puzzle then you haven't made it yourself. How can that not be true? Remember all of this was in reply to an earlier post and not some random attack on CADers.

Then, what if I paid them to make masters and casted the parts myself? Did I make it then?
My point is that no matter how the parts are made, I have ownership to the puzzle and design. It wouldn't have been MADE if I didn't design it. Therefore, I was involved in the making of the puzzle.
I wish to close this conversation and get the thread back on topic.

You asked a question but then closed the conversation so I am confused.
To answer you though that is called a collaboration. Since we all know what's going on we (myself included) tend to use a freer somewhat inaccurate style of talking here so I would not expect you to call it that. Once again I will repeat that I was answering a specific post, and now trying to respond to all the feedback.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:38 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
The Pyraminx and Megaminx you have at home was not made by Uwe Meffert. It was made by a Chinese factory. We all know that, right?

As are the base puzzles for 98% of your creations. This is no more a crutch than a 3D printer. Your hypocrisy is hilarious. You're an elitist whiner.

I very much suggest you read back through the thread. All I said was that paying Shapeways isn't making puzzles. Still fact.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:40 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
All I said was that paying Shapeways isn't making puzzles. Still fact.

Well in that case, neither is what you do. Fact.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:43 pm 
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Whether or not you truly made every single bit of the puzzle shouldn't matter. What should matter is that you MADE a great idea (whether it be an addition to another, you still made part of it), you MADE a design, and an amazing puzzle was made which people, whether it be just yourself or others, can enjoy.

I say, that as long as the modification to the puzzle/design AND creation of the puzzle was your idea, then you made that puzzle.

As for stupid things...

*Holds a clearly non-cube-like puzzle*
"Whoa! That's a cool Rubik's Cube!"

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:47 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Tony, my point is not that you are wrong, but that you are being hypocritical by claiming that your method of making puzzles somehow counts and others don't. Fundamentally there is no difference, as we are all using bits made by others and then modifying and/or assembling them. Frankly, I don't care how you define the word "make", but at least make sure you are consistent.

I have been 100% consistent throughout and never once claimed that my method of making puzzles somehow counts and others don't.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:48 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
All I said was that paying Shapeways isn't making puzzles. Still fact.

Well in that case, neither is what you do. Fact.


If 3D printing isn't considered 'making,' then neither the designer nor Shapeways makes the puzzle. No one makes all these puzzles, yet they exist. How very very strange! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:49 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
All I said was that paying Shapeways isn't making puzzles. Still fact.

Well in that case, neither is what you do. Fact.

Please read my posts! - "Before anyone mentions it I do acknowledge that transforming is not 100% puzzle making either". How many more times? I am not attacking anyone yet you prefer to believe that I am.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:51 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
KelvinS wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
All I said was that paying Shapeways isn't making puzzles. Still fact.

Well in that case, neither is what you do. Fact.


If 3D printing isn't considered 'making,' then neither the designer nor Shapeways makes the puzzle. No one makes all these puzzles, yet they exist. How very very strange! :lol:

You're forgetting the assembler. And the stickerer. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
To answer you though that is called a collaboration.

If you call that collaboration, having Shapeways 3D print a design you made can also be called a collaboration, no?

cubeguy314 wrote:
*Holds a clearly non-cube-like puzzle*
"Whoa! That's a cool Rubik's Cube!"

When I brought my Megaminx to school once, they called it a cube and then I had to tell them the shape was called a dodecahedron. They looked at me like I was on some sort of narcotic.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:56 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
KelvinS wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
All I said was that paying Shapeways isn't making puzzles. Still fact.

Well in that case, neither is what you do. Fact.


If 3D printing isn't considered 'making,' then neither the designer nor Shapeways makes the puzzle. No one makes all these puzzles, yet they exist. How very very strange! :lol:


Shapeways makes the puzzles. The person who pays Shapeways doesn't. If I buy some land and ask a building company to build a house to my design the builders are the ones who built the house. If I lay the bricks myself then I am the one who built the house.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:58 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
To answer you though that is called a collaboration.

If you call that collaboration, having Shapeways 3D print a design you made can also be called a collaboration, no?

Absolutely. You designed it, they built it.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Tony's Website wrote:
...and change it into something new when I made my Siamese Cubes in 1981.


I'm not too sure Tony... I most certainly think your puzzles are brilliant and are MADE by you :) , but according to your definition, they aren't. I suppose the question is what's the difference between makers and producers?

Also, I forgot to mention that I did have someone tell me that they could solve my 11x11 faster than I could, then say, "Don't look! Then I can't concentrate on solving it!" as he tried to peel off the stickers.
I also remember back in my middle school days, I had someone say that they could solve my 1x2x2 really quickly, then not be able to figure it out as they turned a side, flipped the puzzle a bit in their hands, and turned the same side over again and repeated the process until I relieved them of duty. :lol:

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 Post subject: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:43 pm 
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cubeguy314 wrote:
Tony's Website wrote:
...and change it into something new when I made my Siamese Cubes in 1981.


I'm not too sure Tony... I most certainly think your puzzles are brilliant and are MADE by you :) , but according to your definition, they aren't. I suppose the question is what's the difference between makers and producers?


They are partly made by me. I think within the puzzle community wording is often different (ok wrong) since we all know what's going on. When ever I show a puzzle to "outside people" though I always explain that I didn't actually do anything that clever and was just using an existing puzzle. Sometimes I say I am just drawing a moustache and glasses on the Mona Lisa and reselling it. For example I showed "my" Triple Fused Petaminxes to someone and they were amazed. They of course thought I had made the whole thing. I had to claw their amazement down by a huge amount explaining the three lumps were factory made and I just stuck them together.
Unfortunately titles are traditionally quite short and I have adapted to that. Originally though I was using titles like "Tony Fisher's Icosahedron Transformation of a Skewb" for example. A much more accurate title than "Tony Fisher's Icosahedron".
I totally admit to using the wrong wording for many things as do most puzzlers but the whole point was about that original statement which people have now probably forgotten. There's simply no way that you have made something if you haven't actually made any of it.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:41 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
All I said was that paying Shapeways isn't making puzzles. Still fact.
If you buy someone's else's designed puzzle from Shapeways. Say I buy Oskar's 17x17x17 then you are correct, I can not say that I made it. However Oskar certainly can.

If you mean anything else then I have to say all of my non-cuber friends have never said anything this dumb. Shapeways is a tool. Maybe its not as crude a tool as a hammer, knife, or chisel but its a tool none the less. That much is a fact. What difference is it who owns the 3D printer? Does clauswe make his own puzzles? Or do you attribute that to the people that designed and sold him his 3D printer? If you want to continue to live in the crude hammer, knife, or chisel age you are welcome to. But why try to alienate your customer base that has moved on and added some more advanced tools to their tool box? Your stance is just flat WRONG on so many levels. When you eat out and have a great steak and the server asks if you'd like to give your compliments to the chef... let me guess... you'd say "No, but please tell the cow it did a great job." This stance does nothing but alienate people and in my opinion has no place in these forums.

If you honestly believe tools should be credited as the puzzle maker. I expect you to contact Andreas so that all these errors in the Museum can be corrected:
http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/pdb-search.cgi?act=inv&key=194
I now believe most of these should be credited to Dremel. I trust you paid your electric company for the service that Dremel provided. Surely that is no different then paying Shapeways.
Tony Fisher wrote:
Sadly, the dumbest things I have heard have come from cubers.
At least on this much, we agree. And some of the smartest things I have heard have come from non-cubers. Burgo has a great example.
Burgo wrote:
Marcel Duchamp famously expressed a long time ago, that the Art is the idea, not the object.
Tony Fisher wrote:
If I lay the bricks myself then I am the one who built the house.
Your architect would disagree. If the world only had brick layers, I dare say we'd have no houses and many piles of bricks.

The designers here direct Shapeways via an STL file they have made with their hands and brains. You direct your Dremel via your hand. The process of creation is no different and any perceived difference exists only in your head.

None of this attacks anyone and is simple fact so I trust Tony won't take any offence,
Carl

P.S. The tone of the above post aside. I have the utmost respect for Tony as a puzzle designer and he's been an inspiration to me since before I was making my own designs. I hope some day to be able to say "Thank You" and shake his hand. But there are just times (this isn't the first one) where he seems to go out of his way to alienate himself from other designers. There is certainly a perceived resentment here toward Shapeways and Shapeways users and I think Tony feels its eaten into his profit margin. I'm not saying he needs to be happy about that but why direct these feelings onto your customer base? I took the opposite stance above to make my point. Call it me playing devils advocate and read it with a grain of salt. I'm not trying to rally an army against Tony.

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 Post subject: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:54 am 
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This creator elitism is really hijacking the thread. Perhaps one of you would like to make a thread about it because I do honestly think a lot of people would want to talk about the differences between a maker, builder, modder, designer, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:28 am 
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TheCubingKyle wrote:
Perhaps one of you would like to make a thread about it because I do honestly think a lot of people would want to talk about the differences between a maker, builder, modder, designer, etc.
I have no further interest in this topic. I simply see no need to create this division where no division is needed. One is simply arguing over semantics at this point. Tony is entitled to any opinion he wishes to have. My beef was with him presenting his demeaning opinion as fact. Just as I was trying to present my equally demeaning opinion as fact to show just how absurd it sounded. I prefer threads to have a more uplifting tone to them and a new thread to continue this "bashing" I think would be a waste. As for the original point of this thread... I hope the intent isn't to bash non-cubers. My non-cubing friends have been really supportive and respectful toward my designs. This includes my wife and boys who have allowed me to drag them off to IPPs and the like. They themselves have only a passing interest but they think my puzzles are cool. Just last weekend I took my youngest boy to the mall and we walked passed a game/puzzle store. We walked in and I must have seen a half dozen puzzles which had Oskar's name on them. I told him someday I hope to see one of my puzzles in this store and he looked at me like I was crazy. And that is just the kind of motivation I need to push myself in that direction. See even if my boys aren't interested in puzzles I can still teach them how to dream BIG and make those dreams happen. So I really have no desire to call anyone out and say they were "dumb". Yes... I guess I just did in the post before this one. But I hope its understood that I certainly don't believe Tony is dumb. I disagree with his stance and even if he believes that, I feel it was a poor business decision to state it the way he did. But we live in a free country and he can say what he wants to... and I'm free to disagree. I'm not going to let it affect my respect for him as a puzzle designer.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:42 am 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Unfortunately titles are traditionally quite short and I have adapted to that. Originally though I was using titles like "Tony Fisher's Icosahedron Transformation of a Skewb" for example. A much more accurate title than "Tony Fisher's Icosahedron".

Why not just shorten the name to "Icosahedron Transformation of a Skewb": We can drop your name because you didn't "make" the puzzle, you only transformed it...

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:26 am 
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Gentlemen:

I split this off because it was a major distraction from the original thread. I would hope that many (in fact most) of the contributors have been on the forum long enough to know better particularly when it was suggested a few times to take it somewhere else. The discussion involved is of importance but in its place, not derailing someone else's topic.

The tone, however, is also a great disappointment. Come on guys, we can do better than that. We're talking about terminology, and a verb like "make" is extremely open to interpretation, as are "design", "build", "transform", "mod" etc.
They have historical definition on his forum as well as historical clear mis-use.

People need to stop taking things so personal, and stop using any demeaning terms.
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This is a discussion forum. These topics and definitions can be discussed without any need for comparison or assigning value to anyone's efforts.

[Admin hat off]
I happen to hold a bit more general and less extreme definition of "make" than Tony, but I understand his perspective. I also understand why so many took that perspective for what it was not meant to be.

To me "make" is too generic to hold such specific meaning. I think we need to explore words like "assemble", "create", "build", "construct" and "manufacture" to capture the more subtle aspects of the whole process of bringing an idea to be a physical object in someone's hands.

When someone puts together a DIY I think there is a place to say they assembled it, but build, make and construct have some of that meaning so while not the correct terms, I can understand why they might be used. Clearly manufacture or design wouldn't be correct.
For a Shapeways puzzle we have design and assembly, but not the middle step of manufacture.
For a transformation we usually have some assembly and part modification that may involve design, manufacture and construction. But a sticker mod can be a transformation so you might not even have any of those.

No one word really captures at any level of detail.

It is pretty obvious that most on this forum have added some substantial value to puzzles they display. Where that value has been added can vary widely and what verb we use to generically describe all of these contributions isn't entirely obvious. I might suggest "create", as it has less of a physical connotation than "make" and can therefore more easily cover things like ideas or more complex collaborative ventures.

[Admin hat back on]
But I don't think we will get or will need 100% agreement on the matter to keep discussion civil, something that needs to return.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:39 am 
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Dave, I think your comment about these definitions being too open to personal opinion to argue about was great.

It's funny, but I remember feeling I was "cheating" when I started casting using resin instead of machining every part painfully from raw plastic stock (idolizing Katsuhiko). :)

I feel very romantic about puzzles created lovingly with great effort and pain, (knucklehead anyone?) but I really also love seeing all the tools in use without exclusion to create EVERYTHING we all can, including things that would be almost impossible to carve by hand in wood using an obsidian point.

Such an amazing community here MAKEing things in our different ways. Let's just call it that-- different ways of making!

I think we can all agree that the results are something we can all agree to appreciate, however they are made.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:10 am 
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Allow me to share what I've been laboring over...

This is my kitchen right now:
Attachment:
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_kitchen.png
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_kitchen.png [ 1.31 MiB | Viewed 1393 times ]


I'm removing jammed porcelain spheres from polished parts. It's hard to tell from the photo but these parts are 6 inches deep and there are more than 2000 parts to go:
Attachment:
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_part.png
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_part.png [ 1.14 MiB | Viewed 1393 times ]

Attachment:
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_parts_close.png
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_parts_close.png [ 1.26 MiB | Viewed 1393 times ]


Here are the basic mechanical tools I'm using:
Attachment:
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_tools.png
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_tools.png [ 1.35 MiB | Viewed 1393 times ]


I know it doesn't look like much but after 2 hours of work this is what I have to show:
Attachment:
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_parts_done.png
tumbler_porcelain_spheres_parts_done.png [ 1.26 MiB | Viewed 1393 times ]


Unfortunately, the spheres are packed into some of the parts in a way that I can't get them out. I will have to drill bigger holes. I bought a Dremel to do this but I haven't started using it yet. I think the Dremel will dramatically speed up the process for the really hard parts but I still have at least 10 hours of manual labor to go. It's worth it :D

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:13 am 
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I would like to say thank you all designer that makes new puzzles out of nothing that is amazing, reading this thread i had some mixed feelings about what tony fisher meant to me.
Myself i had some ideas about modding puzzles but never had the tools or handskill like tony has but he saying that puzzles designers dont make puzzles.. That is adsurd. And i understant that he is referring that when you 3d print, the printer is making the piece but whats the point on saying that? You take a puzzle made but machines and cut here, glue there, extend.. That's hard but you downgrading the INCREDIBLE work of a designer that creates a whole new thing.. Wow
Now i am going to play with my curvy copter, a new puzzle that was created by tom z!

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 Post subject: Re: What's the dumbest thing you've ever heard a non-cuber s
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:33 am 
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Dave,

For what its worth I got heated and I admit that. But how is this statement being taken as NOT what it was meant to be?
Tony Fisher wrote:
Tools = A company that does all the work for you
There are clear implications here and I don't think I'm delusional in seeing what they are.

To be more civil I'll simply state that I work for Intel making chips in a division called AZFSM which stands for Arizona Fab Sort Manufacturing. So I feel qualified in saying that I know what it means to make or manufacture something. I'll point everyone to this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_for_manufacturability

If one has designed the object to be manufactured with these principles in mind the manufacturing process can be nearly trivial. In this case the company that is getting credited for doing "all the work" does little more then press a print button. The work has been shifted from the manufacturing... to the designing... I see this everyday in my job. If one wants to jump into manufacturing something and forgo the design steps I say the more power to them. But to then turn around and to use that to diminish the accomplishments of others? Its simply wrong. Just as it would be wrong for me to accuse Tony of poor design. He manufactures his puzzles the way he wants to and he has every prerogative to do so. I'm just saying all designers should be given that same prerogative and given the same credit they are due.

To debate the meaning of these terms, in the context of puzzle manufacturing and there relative significance, is something I view as a likely divisive endeavor with little to be gained.

My apologies for getting heated,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:43 am 
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Tony, why are you calling "your" latest puzzle: "Tony fisher's siamese hexaminx"
You didn't make more than 5% of the puzzle, it should be called "mostly chinese company siamese hexaminx" or similar period. (seems to some people that opinions are facts)

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:45 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Here are the basic mechanical tools I'm using:
Interesting... so just what do you use that Bubbloid core for? I have several at the moment myself but hadn't considered putting them in my tool box. LOL!!!

By the way, major kudos on your approach to this "argument". You are much better at this then I am.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:53 am 
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Come on, Brendon, those are obviously pictures from Tony's kitchen...

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle creation terminology
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:58 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
Come on, Brendon, those are obviously pictures from Tony's kitchen...
Brandon is bmenrigh's first name. One of the smaller issues in this thread, though :wink:

I was really surprised reading such heated discussions, in essence about the definition of the word "make".
I have often expressed my admiration for "hand-made" puzzles. (I will not go into a precise definition of "hand-made", let me just exclude mass-produced and 3D printed). On many other occasions I have expressed my admiration for CAD designed and 3D printed puzzles.

Anything ever made by human beings gets started first by an idea (or a contingency, but I guess that a puzzle is created rarely by a contingency). Different skills and tools are needed to create a physical object corresponding to the original idea. The idea may be the most important part, the skills and tools are important as well.

Some people are incredibly good creating twisty puzzles "by hand", other are incredibly good at "making" CAD designs.
(E.g. look at Jason's Radiolarian series, what a dedication, what an achievement.)

I value both!

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