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 Post subject: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:32 pm 
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This is a little chop using the skirting rails mechanism. It prevents jumbling, so internal blocking due to hidden jumbling doesn't happen.

I was hoping a 65 mm version of the little chop would be possible. The puzzle is too small to be perfectly stable though, so a larger version is in the works.

This experiment was done with the blessing of Matt Shepit.

Video here

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Last edited by JasonSmith on Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 pm 
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I'd like to be the first to say wow! I am amazed at how you find ways to keep puzzles from jumbling. I hope to see more puzzles like this in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:49 pm 
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I guess the only thing left to ask is: can this mechanism be used in a Big Chop? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:18 pm 
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So... is the non-jumbling a bug, or a feature?


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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:22 pm 
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Great Idea. Congratulation Jason :)

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:24 pm 
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@bhearn I'm pretty sure its intentional, because I think it's hard to control jumbling. That or many designers intentionally find designs that can jumble, I don't know.

I wish I had one of these...even though one does not simply find a solution for it...
Is the skirting rails mechanism an entire mechanism of its own, or some alteration of the shell mechanism used to prevent jumbling? The internal pieces must be quite small...its much bigger than a helicopter cube (like most 24-cubes) yet its still "unstable"

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:36 am 
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Jason:
Can you post some images of the mechanism?
Why have you designed it without jumbling? I thought I was the only one who would have liked this feature to have never been discovered.


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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Wow. Fantastic puzzle.
So the rails work on this one. That is great news.
Another working 24 Cube. Great great great.

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:15 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
I guess the only thing left to ask is: can this mechanism be used in a Big Chop? :P


We will see! :)

bhearn wrote:
So... is the non-jumbling a bug, or a feature?


If you want to fix the internal locking that happens when internal layers jumble on a shells mech, then this is a feature! :)

But if you love jumbling, then it's a bug. I guess one way to answer that question is to say that I can't (yet) make a jumbling little chop using skirting rails if I wanted to.

JubilantJD wrote:
Is the skirting rails mechanism an entire mechanism of its own, or some alteration of the shell mechanism used to prevent jumbling? The internal pieces must be quite small...its much bigger than a helicopter cube (like most 24-cubes) yet its still "unstable"


Yeah, skirting rails is definitely different from the shells mechanism. It was devised long ago before I understood shells very well.

Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Jason:
Can you post some images of the mechanism?
Why have you designed it without jumbling? I thought I was the only one who would have liked this feature to have never been discovered.

Andreas- I will post some mech pictures for this and others using it, as soon as I get a couple more puzzles done using the idea. It shouldn't be too long now!

Thanks for posting all of you! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:40 am 
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Jason, have you considered making the core be a 2x2x1 and putting skirting rails on top of that? That might result in simpler rails.


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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:16 am 
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Bram wrote:
Jason, have you considered making the core be a 2x2x1 and putting skirting rails on top of that? That might result in simpler rails.


How would the core be attached? I find this interesting but I can't understand it. If four of the outside pieces where attached to that core the puzzle would block after one 2x2x1 turn and another along the rails.
So I guess only one of the pieces may be connected and the pieces must be able to switch from the rails to the 2x2x1 mechanism. ?

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:07 am 
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JasonSmith wrote:
Yeah, skirting rails is definitely different from the shells mechanism. It was devised long ago before I understood shells very well.

First puzzle with rails mechanism - russian Makarov Cube (same as Oscar MixUp cube), second puzzle - Okamoto Void Cube

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:31 am 
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So, is the mechanism of this puzzle more or less complicated than the mechanism used by Drizzle's version of the 24 cube?

And if this is the same kind of mechanism as found in the Void Cube, does that mean this could be used as a starting point for a void non-jumbling master little chop?

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:46 am 
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Andreas Nortmann wrote:
I thought I was the only one who would have liked this feature to have never been discovered.
I'm a fan of both. I just think of the jumbling and the non-jumbling Little Chops as different puzzles. Better yet they are two totally different mechanisms.
JasonSmith wrote:
benpuzzles wrote:
I guess the only thing left to ask is: can this mechanism be used in a Big Chop? :P
We will see! :)
Sounds very interesting if I'm reading between the lines correctly.
grigr wrote:
First puzzle with rails mechanism - russian Makarov Cube (same as Oscar MixUp cube), second puzzle - Okamoto Void Cube
Probably not the best place to ask this but this post made me think of it. Was there ever a production run of the russian Makarov Cube? I believe there is a book with a picture of one in it but I've always assumed that was a prototype. Does anyone out there own one of these?
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
So, is the mechanism of this puzzle more or less complicated than the mechanism used by Drizzle's version of the 24 cube?
That is a subjective question. I haven't seen the mechanism of this particular puzzle but I think its safe to say it has fewer parts then the jumbling verson. However, I don't think I'd call it simplier. The application of the shells mechanism has been pretty well documented and I suspect there are far more designers out there that could apply it to the Little Chop and likely create a functioning puzzle then there are designers that could create this Non-Jumbling version.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:09 pm 
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So I am wondering whether this puzzle will be made available for sale... Actually, I wonder whether any Little Chops in the future can ever be made available for sale legally/ethically/within the site's policies?

JasonSmith wrote:
benpuzzles wrote:
I guess the only thing left to ask is: can this mechanism be used in a Big Chop? :P


We will see! :)


!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:40 pm 
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This was made with Matt Shepit's blessing. If the version I sent to Shapeways last night works, then I'd only consider selling with his Ok and credit.

Grigr, I don't mean to claim development of rails, just "skirting rails". A disassembled void cube was used as reference the first time I tried this. I also looked at Mozaika and Masterball (clicking rails) mechs.

And yes, there's a void master little chop in there! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Here's an image without the caps.


Attachments:
File comment: Without the caps.
20131021_222915_2.jpg
20131021_222915_2.jpg [ 67.19 KiB | Viewed 1534 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Can you give a picture like that, but where a jumbling move should be possible but isn't?

(Also maybe a picture or two like this for the Radio Chop topic!)


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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Interesting. How do the middle layers not come out of alignment?

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 Post subject: Re: Non Jumbling Little Chop
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:11 am 
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How many pieces does it have? Can it be mass produced?

Also, did you receive my PM I sent you this July? I think this thread answers my question in the PM though.

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