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 Post subject: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:36 am 
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Hi Twisty Puzzles fans,

Krystian's Skewb was invented by Krystian Wilisowski. It is a Master Skewb where the slice layer has some additional cuts. The puzzle is related to Carl Hoff's Doctor Skewb.

Watch the YouTube video.
Buy the puzzle at my Shapeways Shop.
Read more at the Shapeways Forum.
Check out the photos below.

Enjoy!

Oskar
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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:05 am 
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So this is a Master Mixup Skewb? There must be a lot of internal parts for there to be so much friction while turning - do you think you can fix this?

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:17 am 
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Gus wrote:
There must be a lot of internal parts for there to be so much friction while turning?
The friction is not the issue, but the jamming. Those little triangular pieces want to wedge outward and then jam a turn.

Oskar

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Gus wrote:
So this is a Master Mixup Skewb?


I'd call it a Mixup Plus Master Skewb myself...


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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:27 am 
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This really looks crazy. Is the internal mechanism and piece count a lot more complex too?

As for solving, I think all of those slice-layer pieces can be 3-cycled with commutators based off of:
[BRU', DFR', BRU, DFR_SLICE, BRU', DFR, BRU, DFR_SLICE']
and
[DFR_SLICE, BRU_SLICE, DFR_SLICE', BRU', DFR_SLICE, BRU_SLICE', DFR_SLICE', BRU]

There the XXX_SLICE moves use the extra cut freedom.

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:57 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Is the internal mechanism and piece count a lot more complex too?
No, and that may be a problem. The mechanism is simply a Skewb with a slice-cut to hold the mixup plus pieces, see the figure below. The issue is that the little triangular "plus" pieces want to wedge outward, causing those annoying lock-ups. The general recipe for improving a twisty puzzle is "add more layers". However, I do not see how to apply that recipe here, nor other approaches how to solve the wedge+lock issue?

Do you have any ideas?

Oskar
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Krystian's Skewb - view 2.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:38 am 
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All the usual tricks: Increase tolerance, loosen the screws, use springs, add bigger fillets?

Perhaps there are other ways to reduce friction, for example, apply ribs to one surface that slides over another flat surface, so that the ribs are parallel to the direction of motion?

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:56 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
other ways to reduce friction ...
Friction is not the problem, those wedging locking triangular pieces are.

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:29 am 
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Then bigger fillets? Still, it looks stiff at mid turns in the video so I think friction is part of the problem...

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:21 am 
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Wow!
The slices of this puzzle can be turned in steps of 40°, can't they?

Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:24 am 
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Andreas Nortmann wrote:
The slices of this puzzle can be turned in steps of 40°, can't they?
Correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:06 am 
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Oskar wrote:
KelvinS wrote:
other ways to reduce friction ...
Friction is not the problem, those wedging locking triangular pieces are.
I tend to agree with Oskar. When you are pushing pieces around in the slice layer the triangular pieces don't want to move smoothly as they aren't being pushed on a surface that is perpendicular to the direction of travel. It's basically the same problem he had with Fudball. Just the act of trying to turn the slice layer is in effect pushing these triangular pieces into the walls of the neighboring pieces instead of along the intended path. In the case of the Fudball I think things can be improved by also fudging the core as I was planning on doing on the puzzle I was calling the Elemental Slice-turn-only Mixup Master Skewb but there again you are pushing triangles around the slice layer so I don't have high hopes. I've just finished redesigning the Doctor Skewb and I'm pretty sure I can improve that puzzle a fair bit as you are pushing more or less square pieces around in that case. It already turns quite well after its broken in, it just have a very long and difficult break in period.

One idea that may be able to be applied here is to fudge this puzzle such that the slice layers move in an S motion around the equator as they do on the Doctor Skewb. If the correct path is chosen then you can fudge those triangular pieces into rectangular pieces (in the same sense that the slice pieces on the Doctor Skewb are rectangular... they are actually the intersection of 12 cones, but the point is they are being pushed in the direction of travel by the neighboring pieces) and I think the wedging issue may go away. Now if you apply this solution you lose the ability to make face turns (at least I haven't figured out an easy way to design face turns into my Doctor Skewb yet). So you'd end up with basically a Doctor Skewb which just had more pieces in the slice layers and I think the aim of this puzzle was to combine elements of the Doctor Skewb with a face turning Skewb so my solution sort of defeats the purpose.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:25 pm 
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Oskar wrote:
Friction is not the problem, those wedging locking triangular pieces are.
I am intimately familiar with this problem. 3.5 years after declaring "I'm not giving up yet :)" I confess I have had no forward progress despite a few good ideas to explore (no time!).

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:26 am 
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hmm is the problem is caused by the triangular pieces shifting/rotating in place? maybe you could add a lip that protrudes from the middle slice so it looks like this. the adjacent pieces will need slots for the lips of course. im not sure if that solution would work since im not sure if it works with the symmetry of the puzzle and triangle pieces are so thin already but it might keep them from moving around as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Krystian's Skewb by KRYSTIAN and OSKAR
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:36 am 
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cubedude76 wrote:
hmm is the problem is caused by the triangular pieces shifting/rotating in place?
In my case it has nothing to do with rotation, simple translation orthogonal to the direction of intended movement.
I have not tried the track/groove ideas because I haven't had time, but I am not sure it solves things: It may just shift the problem to track intersections.

Dave

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