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 Post subject: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:28 pm 
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new puzzle from mf8
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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Oh. My. Gosh. Please MF8.. Please tell me (Though it looks like it is injection moulded) this is being mass produced!? Fantastic!! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:45 pm 
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I want t this mass produced! Ill just cap the holes and Ill have a regular Pentultimate! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:50 pm 
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So guys when are you going to release the Pentultimate not void with the permission of the inventor?

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:59 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
So guys when are you going to release the Pentultimate not void with the permission of the inventor?

The "inventor" of the Pentultimate is a bit shaky. Lots of people had the idea. Jason was the first to make it. I think it's one of those things that's pretty much fair game for anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:14 pm 
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Just beautiful :shock:
I can't believe i get a chance to own this puzzle at last.
But MF8, can i ask why you are making the void and not the regular Pentultimate?
Don't get me wrong, I am going to buy this puzzle either way. I just really would like a regular one :)

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Hooray!! I guess I should update "the list". :D


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:47 pm 
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Pillowed hexaminx, void pentultimate ... great puzzles, ones that people have been asking to be mass produced for a long time. It's a good time to be a twistypuzzler :D But only if you are rich :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:02 pm 
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YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I really hope this is going to be put on the market...Please MF8, I'm begging you! I have wanted a Pentultimate for years!

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:35 pm 
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very good puzzle :)
cousin for my Atomicahedron (Void Master Pentultimate)

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:00 pm 
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This looks really beautiful. What a nice coincidence that this is revealed while the PAW Pentultimate is still travelling around the world. (Not many signatures would fit on those void stickers, though. :lol: )

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Fantastic! I NEED one of these!
Hopefully this will come soon?

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Why on earth is the void version coming out before the regular version? Very strange.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:04 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
Why on earth is the void version coming out before the regular version? Very strange.

I think it was to avoid copyright issues with the original designer of the Pentultimate, but I'm not sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:27 pm 
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Wow, that is a great looking puzzle even without stickers! This will be fun! I've been intrigued with the Penultimate for some time, but actually getting one is the stuff of legends.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:37 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Darren Grewe wrote:
So guys when are you going to release the Pentultimate not void with the permission of the inventor?

The "inventor" of the Pentultimate is a bit shaky. Lots of people had the idea. Jason was the first to make it. I think it's one of those things that's pretty much fair game for anyone.


By this logic, very many puzzles would be fair game.

Here's my perspective.

I think this puzzle is great and can't wait to buy one. It's different enough from a pentiultimate to be outside the argument. Also, MF8 has consistently made great puzzles, and given credit where due from my perspective.

If a normal Pentultimate is made... I do feel a bit of ownership of the Pentultimate being the first to make a working one (referring to my 2 and 2.5 mechs), and doing so in the days when it meant a couple of strenuous dedicated years. I asked Christopher Pelley's permission to use the name, and TomZ asked permission to make and sell his version on Shapeways, which I happily agreed to. I've seen the PAW version which is fantastic work that I love! I want everyone to be able to make their own version if they want, which is what I'd hope from other inventors if I want to try a puzzle they made first.
But I don't mean any of that open spirit to indicate I relinquish being first to make one. I have mentioned to a few folks that if one is mass produced, I'd like to be involved.
I think having the idea on these canonical puzzles is less important. For example, if I say I had the idea for a 31x31x31, but someone else made one that actually worked.
None of this would hold up in court, but it's my perspective. :)

And again, I'm very happy with MF8 and this puzzle is beside the argument to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:35 am 
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I'm totally celebrating a party at my desk right now.
YES!

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:53 am 
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I was sure I'd seen this before:


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:21 am 
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Oh wow, I just recently ordered a custom-made Pentultimate from Shapeways...but who knows, maybe I'll look into the void one as well! I wonder when will this become available.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Yay!
I really wanted Pentultimate!
The first thing I'll probably fill the holes and make it into a regular one.


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Actually, MF8... can you produce both versions?
Void one AND regular one without holes?
Just make solid centers for it...
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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:38 pm 
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Vadim wrote:
Yay!
I really wanted Pentultimate!
The first thing I'll probably fill the holes and make it into a regular one.

I have a suggestion how to do that. Use very very very thick stickers.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Vadim wrote:
Yay!
I really wanted Pentultimate!
The first thing I'll probably fill the holes and make it into a regular one.

I have a suggestion how to do that. Use very very very thick stickers.


Or tiles?

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:43 pm 
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JackRTully wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
Vadim wrote:
Yay!
I really wanted Pentultimate!
The first thing I'll probably fill the holes and make it into a regular one.

I have a suggestion how to do that. Use very very very thick stickers.


Or tiles?


I wonder how many cap versions are going to be on shapeways. :roll: :mrgreen:

I am in no way saying that anything about this puzzle and it's release is in any way disapointing. At all, seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:35 pm 
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My main question is how big will it be? Will it have multiple complex parts like other Pentultimates so that it'll have to be big like (or bigger than) mf8's other dodecahedrons? Although, I do think it would be rather nice if they could condense it down to the size of a megaminz.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:55 pm 
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cubeguy314 wrote:
My main question is how big will it be? Will it have multiple complex parts like other Pentultimates so that it'll have to be big like (or bigger than) mf8's other dodecahedrons? Although, I do think it would be rather nice if they could condense it down to the size of a megaminz.

Looks like their "standard" sized 40mm to an edge dodecahedron. The same size all of their other dodecahedra have been.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:02 pm 
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As a solver / collector, I'd just like to say... I personally have no need for any more void (or pillowed) puzzles. It was brilliant when Okamoto did it. It's a cube without the mechanism! But once was enough. It's really kind of amazing to me that people have taken this and run with it. No offense to the designers who have made other void puzzles; I can appreciate the design challenge. But it's no longer original or (to me) interesting as a puzzle.

I see that there might be somewhat vague IP issues here with the void / regular Pentultimate, but to the extent that that was a concern, it would have been better just to talk to Jason first, IMO. We really ought to have a mass-produced (regular) Pentultimate.

... plus, on second look, it's not really "void", like the Void Cube is, anyway, just "holey".


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:36 am 
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bhearn wrote:
As a solver / collector, I'd just like to say... I personally have no need for any more void (or pillowed) puzzles. It was brilliant when Okamoto did it. It's a cube without the mechanism! But once was enough. It's really kind of amazing to me that people have taken this and run with it. No offense to the designers who have made other void puzzles; I can appreciate the design challenge. But it's no longer original or (to me) interesting as a puzzle.

I see that there might be somewhat vague IP issues here with the void / regular Pentultimate, but to the extent that that was a concern, it would have been better just to talk to Jason first, IMO. We really ought to have a mass-produced (regular) Pentultimate.

... plus, on second look, it's not really "void", like the Void Cube is, anyway, just "holey".



I completely agree with the first paragraph. But I have the impression that MF8 made the mechanism void because it involved less pieces or at least is easier to make with consistent turning quality. I don't know about the number of pieces and thinking up this rail mechanism might be more complex to do intellectually but once they decided to make one that way, I can understand that they also want to show the hollow core. I can somehow relate to the thought of "wasting" this interesting feature when just capping the puzzle.
Wheather or not it has also to do with ownership questions I don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:42 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
I was sure I'd seen this before:


I see you haven't solved it yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:05 pm 
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Yes, a cool one and a must-have:)

Maybe it is possible to design plug-ins (See Oskar's Minimal Twist) which allow different puzzle variations?

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:59 pm 
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bhearn wrote:
As a solver / collector, I'd just like to say... I personally have no need for any more void (or pillowed) puzzles.
As a designer / collector / and very poor solver... I tend to agree. I like new puzzles and new mechanisms and have very little interest in shape modes. For each mechanism I generally prefer the shape which gives each piece a unique position and orientation in the solved state with as few faces (colors) as possible. Granted I know many here like Shape Mods so I have nothing against them either... I just don't generally collect them. The only reason why this might have some interest to me over the regular Pentultimate is that it is cleary not the shell mechanim and this is one way to show that. Though I'd suspect the shell mechanism probably makes a better functioning puzzle... just a guess at the moment. This "void" version also offers sufaces which could be stickered to show the face center orientation nicely.
bhearn wrote:
It was brilliant when Okamoto did it.
There I agree 100%. Everyone knows how a 3x3x3 works... he took that and turned everything upside down again. I loved that. And speaking of Okamoto I was hoping to meet him at this last IPP. I'm curious if its known why he wasn't there. He's a designer I've purchased puzzles from for a very long time and I hope to meet him someday.

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:10 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
bhearn wrote:
This "void" version also offers sufaces which could be stickered to show the face center orientation nicely.


I hope you're not suggesting stickering the walls / insides of the voids. That would just be...weird.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:57 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
I hope you're not suggesting stickering the walls / insides of the voids. That would just be...weird.
Yes. That is what I was suggesting. It appears those walls are parallel to the 5 neighboring faces. Granted that wall is across the void from the face its parallel too but I think it makes since to have all parallel planes in the same color stickers.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:19 pm 
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Alternatively, use an extra 20 colors on the internal hole walls with sets of 3 adjacent hole walls sharing one color (like the 20-color Alexander's Star variant). Then just group the colors to solve.

Edit: A minimal variation of the same idea would use just four extra colors. Anyone care to explain? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:29 pm 
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Jared wrote:
Edit: A minimal variation of the same idea would use just four extra colors. Anyone care to explain? ;)

I'm not sure how that would be done...BUT I do know that a version with only 5 colors can also be done. This is because the 20 faces of an icosahedron can be grouped into 5 subgroups of 4 faces each, with each group of 4 "faces" having the same color.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:48 pm 
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alaskajoe wrote:
I completely agree with the first paragraph. But I have the impression that MF8 made the mechanism void because it involved less pieces or at least is easier to make with consistent turning quality. I don't know about the number of pieces and thinking up this rail mechanism might be more complex to do intellectually but once they decided to make one that way, I can understand that they also want to show the hollow core. I can somehow relate to the thought of "wasting" this interesting feature when just capping the puzzle.
Wheather or not it has also to do with ownership questions I don't know.


have you seen my riddle Atomicahedron? MF8 come up with the same mechanism:
viewtopic.php?p=303639#p303639
this is a very simple mechanism (same as Okamoto Void Cube, Oskar Gift Cube)
StarMinx mechanism is much more complicated ... MF8 therefore chose this path

few parts type, no invisible parts!
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Last edited by grigr on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:49 pm 
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I hope the reason they are making the void Pentultimate is because they want to sticker it as a Superpentultimate!


Attachments:
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super pentultimate.jpg [ 317.04 KiB | Viewed 4458 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:20 am 
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grigr wrote:

have you seen my riddle Atomicahedron? MF8 come up with the same mechanism:
viewtopic.php?p=303639#p303639
this is a very simple mechanism (same as Okamoto Void Cube, Oskar Gift Cube)
StarMinx mechanism is much more complicated ... MF8 therefore chose this path
few parts type, no invisible parts!




My Pentultimate v2.5 mechanism is the same too! On the inside, it's a void master pentultimate that is really reminiscent of your picture, along with a way to keep the bands aligned.
I don't know how this version solves that problem. It would be interesting if it was the same mechanism!

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:33 am 
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The core to a shells mechanism Pentultimate is so complicated and has so many intricate curved surfaces I don't see how it could be done via injection molding. Instead, I think they'd have to build the core out of pieces and screw / glue them together. This void rails mechanism seems much more practical for mass production even though the resulting puzzle won't turn as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:04 am 
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benpuzzles wrote:
Jared wrote:
Edit: A minimal variation of the same idea would use just four extra colors. Anyone care to explain? ;)

I'm not sure how that would be done...BUT I do know that a version with only 5 colors can also be done. This is because the 20 faces of an icosahedron can be grouped into 5 subgroups of 4 faces each, with each group of 4 "faces" having the same color.


Well, with four colors, just pick four corners at the points of a tetrahedron, and sticker the internal walls around each corner with a different color. Each center piece only gets one sticker that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:25 pm 
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JasonSmith wrote:
My Pentultimate v2.5 mechanism is the same too! On the inside, it's a void master pentultimate that is really reminiscent of your picture, along with a way to keep the bands aligned.
I don't know how this version solves that problem. It would be interesting if it was the same mechanism!
This is the last puzzle thing I remember working on. It was somewhere around trying to figure this all out that I just kind of stopped (because I knew I wouldn't be able to get it printed anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:06 pm 
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JasonSmith wrote:
mechanism is the same too! On the inside, it's a void master pentultimate that is really reminiscent of your picture, along with a way to keep the bands aligned.
I don't know how this version solves that problem. It would be interesting if it was the same mechanism!


You can see "Block-system" there

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:25 pm 
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grigr wrote:
You can see "Block-system" there

Image

Okay, I hope you mean something different when mentioning a "block system"; that phrase gives me 2x3x4 flashbacks...


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:44 am 
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no. This block frozen a hidden middle layer

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
I hope the reason they are making the void Pentultimate is because they want to sticker it as a Superpentultimate!


Great idea! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:50 am 
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Please make the regular version, without holes.

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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:54 pm 
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I'm guessing that based on the mechanism, the holes actually make the puzzle easier to assemble? So you can access the internal pieces and such. So it would make more sense to cap the holes rather than release a version with solid pieces?


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 Post subject: Re: Void Pentultimate
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:31 am 
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Jared wrote:
I'm guessing that based on the mechanism, the holes actually make the puzzle easier to assemble? So you can access the internal pieces and such. So it would make more sense to cap the holes rather than release a version with solid pieces?

No it would definitely make it harder to assemble, turning won't allow any corner-cutting, but... it will take much less plastic to produce, than regular one.
However if this version is already in pipe-line, just adding solid caps for the centres will be a quick win.
To produce proper regular version will require to re-design the whole production process...


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