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 Post subject: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:52 pm 
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I haven't heard of this chap - he has posted a twisty puzzle hopefully to be mass produced on Kickstarter.com.
It looks pretty interesting and is also relatively inexpexpensive.

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The Kickstarter URL is:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danec/the-x-cube

I have contributed - what do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Yes, I also saw it two days ago on Kickstarter. And it was discussed here before:
X-Cube

I will watch the founding process to see, how much money people are willing to spend on puzzle ideas.
At least this is a public request for interest outside of the community.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Yes, like Frank, I am curious to see how much interest and money this manages to raise outside the puzzle community. It is a rare opportunity to see such an experiment.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:33 pm 
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Puzzlemad wrote:
what do you guys think?
Very interesting project... 6 days in and its already two thirds of its way to its goal. Sounds very promising.

Me personally I view this as a 3x5x5 which is missing parts so there are other puzzles I'd prefer to see mass produced before this one but this project if viable I find far more interesting the this particular puzzle as it opens up more options to get more puzzles mass produced.

Question... if one had $30K (say via a kickstarter project) and one wanted to mass produce a puzzle what is the best way to go about getting it mass produced? Would it be to contact Mefferts?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:37 pm 
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Frank Tiex wrote:
Yes, I also saw it two days ago on Kickstarter. And it was discussed here before:
X-Cube
If what is said in that thread is true and someone else has applied for a patent for this and is in the process of producing it than this could be very interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
If what is said in that thread is true and someone else has applied for a patent for this and is in the process of producing it than this could be very interesting.
Ouch... I was in that thread and has since forgotten that detail. Yes this could get interesting but not in what I'd consider a good way. If kickstarter proves to be a viable means of getting puzzles produced I'd prefer the first one to be a positive experience for all involved. This could get messy...

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:04 pm 
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it's a very strange guy ...
but this is very interest

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:34 pm 
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So is anyone going to tell him about the set that Calvin just announced? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25653


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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
So is anyone going to tell him about the set that Calvin just announced? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25653

Maybe he's actually buying the puzzles from Calvin, and just pretending he needs lots of development money. :lol:

Or maybe he is Calvin, with a mask! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:55 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Volitar Prime wrote:
So is anyone going to tell him about the set that Calvin just announced? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25653

Maybe he's actually buying the puzzles from Calvin, and just pretending he needs lots of development money. :lol:

Or maybe he is Calvin, with a mask! :shock:

Calvin has no mask. :D
Actually, we are not planned to announce and release the Aleh & Evgeniy 3x3x5 Cuboid Series so early as we have just announced the Tony & Traiphum Pillowed Hexaminx a few days before. And, the X-cuboid is just one cube of our 3x3x5 series. With two 3x3x5 cubes, you will have one X-cuboid.
Hope, this announcement will make things clear. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:25 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
If kickstarter proves to be a viable means of getting puzzles produced I'd prefer the first one to be a positive experience for all involved. This could get messy...
Sounds like this will get messy. I have no idea what happens next. I've not been part of a kickstarter project before... have all those people already paid the money they pledged? I see they did reach their goal. I'm going to assume Calvin has contacted (or is in the process of contacting) kickstarter and informed them he holds the patent on this puzzle.

Not a good first introduction between kickstarter and twisty puzzle. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:38 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
wwwmwww wrote:
If kickstarter proves to be a viable means of getting puzzles produced I'd prefer the first one to be a positive experience for all involved. This could get messy...
Sounds like this will get messy. I have no idea what happens next. I've not been part of a kickstarter project before... have all those people already paid the money they pledged? I see they did reach their goal. I'm going to assume Calvin has contacted (or is in the process of contacting) kickstarter and informed them he holds the patent on this puzzle.

Not a good first introduction between kickstarter and twisty puzzle. :(

Carl
The Kickstarter pledge money for the X-Cube is not being charged until July 7. Before then people can log onto Kickstarter and cancel their pledge. During the cancellation there is a completely optional step to give a reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Rather than get messy, I see a good opportunity for collaboration: one has patents and can make the puzzles at low cost, the other presumably has a lot of customers lined up, who are prepared to pay in advance. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:46 pm 
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What I don't get about the guy who is running the kickstarter is that he was told in the original thread that this was being patented and mass produced already by someone else but he went ahead anyway.

This may get ugly.


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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
What I don't get about the guy who is running the kickstarter is that he was told in the original thread that this was being patented and mass produced already by someone else but he went ahead anyway.
He did ask for more info (which I take to mean a patent number or other proof) and he was simply told to wait. Obviously he felt he had waited long enough and decided to roll the dice. I suspect he'll shortly have the proof he was after... if he doesn't already.
KelvinS wrote:
Rather than get messy, I see a good opportunity for collaboration: one has patents and can make the puzzles at low cost, the other presumably has a lot of customers lined up, who are prepared to pay in advance. :-)
If both parties see this as a good opportunity and are willing to share a piece of the pie then yes maybe something good could yet come of this. But my gut tells me this is much more likely to blow up in everyone's faces. I sure hope I'm wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:07 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Volitar Prime wrote:
What I don't get about the guy who is running the kickstarter is that he was told in the original thread that this was being patented and mass produced already by someone else but he went ahead anyway.
He did ask for more info (which I take to mean a patent number or other proof) and he was simply told to wait. Obviously he felt he had waited long enough and decided to roll the dice. I suspect he'll shortly have the proof he was after... if he doesn't already.


I gave insaDane all the evidence ...

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:40 am 
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Hey Folks,

Let's start a dialogue. We may certainly be able to work something out. I would prefer collaboration instead of hostility. There are too many good minds here for that.

First I'd like to address this:

grigr wrote:
I gave insaDane all the evidence ...


Grigr: But in your PM to me you said this:
"Hello insaDane I am surprised at the hype around the X-Cube and I see no reason to give evidence ..."

Grigr, you only mentioned that you were working on a patent, but you supplied no patent number or work that supports it. You only included the videos that you also posted on your thread. I publicly disclosed the X-Cube on December 11. This voided any possibility of an international patent. I also filed a provisional patent on this puzzle, meaning I can still come back and patent the design and the technology I used.

I hope you understand why I did what I did-- I've been working on this puzzle since 2008 when I released my first 3x3x5. The X-Cube received so much buzz that it seemed very wise to get this out there. And people loved it! I have raised almost $45k and word is spreading.

I don't want this puzzle to be an issue. I made the X-Cube open source, I'm letting people download the files, and I don't want to pursue a patent or take any time to sue people. That's not my style. We should find a way to make this puzzle kick ass in the market this Christmas. What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:26 pm 
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insaDane wrote:
Grigr, you only mentioned that you were working on a patent, but you supplied no patent number or work that supports it.

During the patent application procedures, we are not likely to disclose the confidential business information, and no valid patent number as well. Certainly, we shall update the patent number at the right time.

> The 3x3x5 Cuboid was firstly designed by Aleh 1989, reference .
> Evgeniy made the drawings, and hence bring out the 3x3x5 Cuboid Series. Thanks for the brilliant design of Aleh > & Evgeniy. The cubes turns smooth and shape-shift during the solving. We shall have black and white.
Regarding the time, our designer was firstly working on the puzzles since 1989.

Anyway, we applied patent is for protection, not to attack anybody. You can make your own puzzle. X-cuboid is just one variation of our whole 3x3x5 series ( more than 10 variations ).
Thanks all.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:32 pm 
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I'm not going to touch the legal questions... they are WAY over my head. So I'll now side-step all that. But...
excalvin wrote:
X-cuboid is just one variation of our whole 3x3x5 series ( more than 10 variations ).
This comment has me very curious. Using the mechanism of a 3x3x5 these are the puzzles which I see are possible:

(1) 3x3x3 (no faces extended) Is a normal 3x3x3 which is easily available so I doubt its counted in your list.
(2) One face extended (would look like a 3x3x4 but wouldn't turn like one)
(3) Two opposite faces extended (your normal 3x3x5)
(4) Two adjacent faces extended (your L-cuboid)
(5) Three faces extended which meet at a corner.
(6) Three faces extended which all have face centers that all lie in the same plane.
(7) Four faces extended which all have face centers that all lie in the same plane. (your X-cuboid)
(8) Four faces extended where the two non-extended faces are adjacent.
(9) Five faces extended
(10) All six faces extended

So not counting a basic Rubik's Cube I see 9 variations. What am I missing? Or are you counting color or sticker variations?

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Hi insaDane
Calvin year ago asked me to do drawings for a 3*3*5 cube and some other puzzles.
I did this and offered to do a few more puzzles X-Cube (I suggested this name), L-Cube, Cross Cube.
I also suggested the use of blocks (see L-Cube thread), which can be done Extreme-version puzzles.
I made the drawings for the puzzle, Calvin ordered the parts in ShapeWays and made the video.
Calvin then applied for a patent and begin mass production of ... it was 2012 year.

When you publish your version of the puzzle, I told you that there was an application for a patent and began mass production this puzzle ...

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:37 pm 
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wwwmwww,
you skip puzzle with blocked center parts and ... some other puzzle variants.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:46 am 
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Hey guys, I found this on the Kickstarter page for Dane Christianson's X-Cube.

http://imgur.com/CDfSstZ


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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:51 am 
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I would be happy to see more collaboration in our community but it seems to me these are conversations that feel like they should not necessarily be held in public.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:00 am 
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DLitwin wrote:
I would be happy to see more collaboration in our community but it seems to me these are conversations that feel like they should not necessarily be held in public.

Dave

I would actually suggest that the two of them talk with each other to explore opportunities and clarify motives directly by phone, as I think they will both benefit by working together, and e-mail/PM is not the best medium to do this...

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:18 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
DLitwin wrote:
I would be happy to see more collaboration in our community but it seems to me these are conversations that feel like they should not necessarily be held in public.

Dave

I would actually suggest that the two of them talk with each other to explore opportunities and clarify motives directly by phone, as I think they will both benefit by working together, and e-mail/PM is not the best medium to do this...


Or Skype.. That's free :D

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:52 pm 
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insaDane
You can buy from Calvin X-Cube set,
you will satisfy all your sponsors and earn well!
good luck

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:43 pm 
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Has anyone told insaDane that Calvin's are now available and that some people are already getting them (as evident by Tony's unpacking video)? Has anyone attempted to tell insaDane's supporters and/or Kickstarter about this? It doesn't seem fair to insaDane's supporters that they are about to put money into something that has already been done by others.

I'm sure that similar situations have occurred in the past and that Kickstarter knows how best to deal with this. It just doesn't seem right to kick start a project to develop a product that already exists on the market. If I was one of his supporters and I found out about the current situation I would be rather upset about it.

At this point I'm really surprised that insaDane is still going through with this.


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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:01 pm 
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I think it's best to take this up with the Kickstarter's team that filters and approves/denies projects in the first place. A link to this topic might be helpful for them as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:47 am 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
It doesn't seem fair to insaDane's supporters that they are about to put money into something that has already been done by others.
I don't think it's fair that insaDane showed off his puzzle first and is getting flak for doing it. I'll continue to support him for this reason alone. I also hope it starts a trend of more twisty puzzles on Kickstarter.

But I'm not a patent/whatever lawyer so who cares what I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:56 am 
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Don’t get me wrong, I do feel sorry for him. He obviously put in a lot of work designing this puzzle. The unfortunate thing is that others were already doing so independently of him and they were further along. When he revealed his to us it was then revealed to all that this other group had already applied for a patent and were in the process of having it mass produced. He decided to continue on anyway despite good advice from a few members here. It was risky on his part to do so and unfortunately the timing didn’t work out for him as the other mass produced one was completed and made its way to the market before he was able to proceed to the next phase of his project.

The reality of the situation is that at this point he has 1200+ backers expecting to give him money next week to develop a product that is already available on the market from other sources.


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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:21 am 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
The reality of the situation is that at this point he has 1200+ backers expecting to give him money next week to develop a product that is already available on the market from other sources.

As I have said above, I see this as a great opportunity for collaboration, where both sides can gain by putting supply together with demand. It's a no-brainer. The only thing that could block such a win-win collaboration is pride and/or mis-trust. Neither is rational.

They just need to get together and thrash out a deal where both can take something away, otherwise both will lose out...

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:26 am 
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I think he hasn't stopped his campaign because he truly believes he has the patent rights. He seems convinced that whatever he has done has given him the rights. I don't know if he is right, but I'd like to find out.


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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:33 am 
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eye2eye wrote:
I think he hasn't stopped his campaign because he truly believes he has the patent rights. He seems convinced that whatever he has done has given him the rights. I don't know if he is right, but I'd like to find out.

Why does it matter? If one party has customers lined up, and the other can supply the product, it still makes sense to team up even if they each think they hold the patent rights. Patent rights without the means to deliver products to customers are worthless.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:25 pm 
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eye2eye wrote:
I think he hasn't stopped his campaign because he truly believes he has the patent rights. He seems convinced that whatever he has done has given him the rights. I don't know if he is right, but I'd like to find out.
I don't think he has tried to get any patents. At lest he wrote above on this thread
insaDane wrote:
...I don't want this puzzle to be an issue. I made the X-Cube open source, I'm letting people download the files, and I don't want to pursue a patent or take any time to sue people. That's not my style. We should find a way to make this puzzle kick ass in the market this Christmas. What do you think?
As Kelvin said: They should find a way to collaborate.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:01 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
As Kelvin said: They should find a way to collaborate.
I hope this is possible but there are legal issues here that I'm certainly not qualifiued to address:

(1) Does Kickstarter open themselves up to any liability by accepting funds to "develop" a product that is already available?

(2) Does the patent holder give up any of his rights if he allows this Kickstarter project to move forward? And if so is he willing to give up those rights?

As much as I would like to see more twisty puzzles on Kickstarter and all parties come out of this happy, I think much of this is out of our hands. Even if both parties want to work together and are willing to be flexible I think Kickstarter could still kill this whole thing. I'm sort of in a wait and see mode. If Kickstarter isn't already aware of this thread I don't feel its my place to point it out to them. Both of the other parties are certainly aware so I think that is up to them and I don't expect them to have their conversations about this mater in public.

My zero cents on the current situation...
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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:18 pm 
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I don't know enough about the specifics of Kickstarter rules, but if an agreement can be reached in principle, then I think the project owner should make both Kickstarter and his (potential) customers aware of the situation, for the sake of complete transparency and integrity.

I think most people (including the guys at Kickstarter, as well as potential customers) would actually respect such honesty and remain supportive, but trying to deceive people could have nasty consequences, especially on the internet where word travels fast and the "mob" rules.

So in short, my advice would be to collaborate AND be open and honest about it, and even give people the option to back out while requesting their continued support. Humility, transparency and integrity build loyalty.

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 Post subject: Re: Twisty on Kickstarter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:03 pm 
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I talk it ...
Calvin may sell for insaDane all need X-Cube, then he will be able to bring happiness to all of its customers

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