Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:49 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:17 pm
Location: Hong Kong
I'm writing for help on this. I have now got 7 puzzles on my desk that need coloring. I'm clueless as to how to color them. Yes, I've read online instructions and all of them have rit dye in them. I wouldn't begin to know where to find that.
I read about the sharpies and the oil messing up your hands...so I don't want to use that (although, the yellow dye isn't much better if you are wearing a ring and wash)

So I'm asking if food coloring could be used as an alternative????

_________________
Rox's Rambling Blog
Katsmom's Puzzling Videos


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
Rit dye is designed specifically to dye nylon material (with the help of some white vinegar). I doubt very much that food coloring would work at all. It is really easy to do once you have done one. I buy all of my Rit from ebay - could you use ebay.cn?

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:17 pm
Location: Hong Kong
:lol: :lol: :lol: I doubt it. I can't read Chinese.
I didn't want to have to order and ship so far. Another dumb question. If you need vinegar...why not food coloring. I mean I add a bit of vinegar at Easter when we dye the eggs.

_________________
Rox's Rambling Blog
Katsmom's Puzzling Videos


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
I'm not a chemist, but I'm pretty sure the chemistry of dyeing nylon is very different from that of colouring foodstuffs. But, give it a go on a test piece, maybe you can be a trailblazer in puzzle dyeing!

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:50 am
Location: chicago, IL area U.S.A
Vinegar actually dissolves the calcium carbonate (the shell) in eggs. This allows the coloring to penetrate. Actually if you leave eggs in vinegar too long, the shell will completely dissolve and you'll have nothing but the membrane left. It's kind of cool actually. But anyway, vinegar won't do the same thing to nylon.

-d


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
darryl wrote:
Vinegar actually dissolves the calcium carbonate (the shell) in eggs. This allows the coloring to penetrate. Actually if you leave eggs in vinegar too long, the shell will completely dissolve and you'll have nothing but the membrane left. It's kind of cool actually. But anyway, vinegar won't do the same thing to nylon.

-d

Light acids attack nylon. If food coloring is going to work vinegar will make it work better. I'm pretty skeptical that food coloring is going to do much of anything though.

If only because the concentrations are so different. You can dilute Rit dye many times and still have black or very dark purple and food coloring dilutes much faster.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:17 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Ill ask one more question then. It won't hurt it right? I follow the same general practice just using food coloring?

_________________
Rox's Rambling Blog
Katsmom's Puzzling Videos


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
katsmom wrote:
Ill ask one more question then. It won't hurt it right? I follow the same general practice just using food coloring?
If you used a ton of vinegar you could potentially damage the nylon. Barring that, no it won't hurt to try.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:46 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
But it will hurt if you don't post the results! :wink:

_________________
Eitan = "EIGHT-ahn"
Buy a Radio Cube 3! Only $150 at Eitan's Shapeways Shop
Check out my video: Twisty Puzzles a la Vi



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:14 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Just on a semi-related note:

How far does RIT dye permiate into the nylon material?

If you were to sand a dyed piece how much could you do before you reached the white material again?

_________________
Q: How many puzzles does a collector need in their collection?
A: Just one more.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
Hybrid424 wrote:
How far does RIT dye permiate into the nylon material?
It depends on dye concentration, water temperature, how much vinegar there is and dyeing time. In my experience certainly less than 0.3mm.
Hybrid424 wrote:
If you were to sand a dyed piece how much could you do before you reached the white material again?
Sometimes the dye penetration is not even, so sanding can be difficult - I never sand a puzzle after dyeing.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Hybrid424 wrote:
Just on a semi-related note:

How far does RIT dye permiate into the nylon material?

If you were to sand a dyed piece how much could you do before you reached the white material again?

I'm not sure how to measure the depth but it's extremely shallow. If the walls are thin (.7mm or so), the dye can completely penetrate the wall and fully color it. All thicker portions though (the edge and corners between walls for example) aren't fully penetrated though.

Also, if you smooth the surface of the piece, the smooth parts have even shallower dye penetration.

I got a 15 PSI pressure cooker for dyeing but I haven't yet tried to run an experiment to compare regular dyeing with high-pressure + high-temperature dyeing.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
bmenrigh wrote:
I got a 15 PSI pressure cooker for dyeing but I haven't yet tried to run an experiment to compare regular dyeing with high-pressure + high-temperature dyeing.
I've added salt to the RIT dye as that also raises the temperature of the boiling water. I've wondered though at what point do you have to worry about getting things too hot? At some point the nylon I would think would start to soften and you could be in danger of deforming the parts.

Also to date I've been using RIT dye. It's easy for me to get here and I'm very happy with the black it produces. But as far as other colors I've noticed the colors I get are not near as vibrant as the colors Oskar has been able to get on his puzzles. He uses Jacquard Acid Dyes if my notes are correct from the last IPP. So I'm going to be giving these a try in the near future.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:50 am
Location: chicago, IL area U.S.A
The melt temperature of nylon is over 200 C, so I wouldn't think it would soften enough to deform in a 15 PSI pressure cooker which is roughly 121 C
I would think the only way to ruin it is to put it into an oven, and there would be no reason to do that.

-d


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
wwwmwww wrote:
Also to date I've been using RIT dye. It's easy for me to get here and I'm very happy with the black it produces. But as far as other colors I've noticed the colors I get are not near as vibrant as the colors Oskar has been able to get on his puzzles. He uses Jacquard Acid Dyes if my notes are correct from the last IPP. So I'm going to be giving these a try in the near future.
Whoa the price of this stuff is incredible! 1lb of black acid dye powder is only $20. I'll have to switch to this stuff if it works as well or better without any negative side-effects.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
darryl wrote:
The melt temperature of nylon is over 200 C, so I wouldn't think it would soften enough to deform in a 15 PSI pressure cooker which is roughly 121 C
Nylon is a generic designation for a family of synthetic polymers known generically as polyamides. I copied that from here. That link gives the melting point of Nylon 6 as 220C and the melting point of Nylon 6,6 as 265C. My guess is there are other polyamides in this family and I also don't know which are present in SWF. My guess is its a mixture of these and mixtures can start to soften well before their melting point. I tend to agree 121C is probably safe but at some point (I don't know where exactly) you start to take risks and I would think most don't want to take too many risks when it comes to what is typically a $100+ puzzle.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Last edited by wwwmwww on Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:50 am
Location: chicago, IL area U.S.A
It would make sense to take some left over material throw it in a pressure cooker and crank it to the highest temperature/pressure it can safely take and report on any changes.
This would give everyone a good idea the limit.

-d


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
I'm sure if the parts have any enclosed hollow cavities or trapped powder the cooker would destroy them. I have a ton of spare parts so I'll do a test and try to compare the results and dye penetration depth.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
wwwmwww wrote:
I've added salt to the RIT dye as that also raises the temperature of the boiling water. I've wondered though at what point do you have to worry about getting things too hot? At some point the nylon I would think would start to soften and you could be in danger of deforming the parts.

Also to date I've been using RIT dye. It's easy for me to get here and I'm very happy with the black it produces. But as far as other colors I've noticed the colors I get are not near as vibrant as the colors Oskar has been able to get on his puzzles. He uses Jacquard Acid Dyes if my notes are correct from the last IPP. So I'm going to be giving these a try in the near future.
For RIT dyeing, salt is not necessary, but a small amount (one cap full per litre of water) of white vinegar definitely makes the colour uptake quicker and the colours more vibrant. See here for an example

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Gus wrote:
For RIT dyeing, salt is not necessary, but a small amount (one cap full per litre of water) of white vinegar definitely makes the colour uptake quicker and the colours more vibrant. See here for an example
Thanks for the tip. I have seen others that have had better results then I with the colored RIT dyes. Maybe its all vinegar but there are some other factors that I think may come into play.

(1) The quality of the water (hard vs soft)... should we all be using DI water for example?
(2) The boiling time
(3) The concetration of the dye
(4) Salt or no salt
(5) Vinegar or no vinegar

For black I try to use a very high concentration and I boil for at least an hour. When I tried this with Red RIT dye by result was very very dark... almost black. So I rinsed the parts in just boiling water for 10 minutes. This turned the water red and the parts got lighter. As I had used salt that also helps assure the salt it taken back out of the part. And in the case of red I got my best shade of red after repeating this process 5 or 6 times. Some of the other colors looked better with just a single rinse or even just a soaking in cool water to remove the salt. Yellow being the best example at the other extreem. But all the rinsing resulted in a very washed out red when compared with the colors I've seen on Oskar's puzzles. So part of the solution be simply be using a lower concentration mix or not boiling as long initially. Just not sure...

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
I really doubt the water quality has much of anything to do with the dye results.

The dye bath I have is pretty filthy by now. I've added salt, vinegar, about 12 packs of Rit dye. It started out as tap water.

I've used the dye bath at least 30 times so now it has soap, tons of nylon powder, tumbler grit, rust, and other things in it.

Also, after adding the vinegar a fuzzy green blue fungus grew on top of it in the storage container so I added copper sulfate pentahydrate as a fungicide.

The dye bath continues to work just fine despite everything in it.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
bmenrigh wrote:
I really doubt the water quality has much of anything to do with the dye results.

The dye bath I have is pretty filthy by now. I've added salt, vinegar, about 12 packs of Rit dye. It started out as tap water.

I've used the dye bath at least 30 times so now it has soap, tons of nylon powder, tumbler grit, rust, and other things in it.

Also, after adding the vinegar a fuzzy green blue fungus grew on top of it in the storage container so I added copper sulfate pentahydrate as a fungicide.

The dye bath continues to work just fine despite everything in it.
I believe this is all true for black which is the color I believe you are talking about. Its very hard to over do the black and its generally believed the more dye you get in the part the better. I don't think that is true for the other colors however. I know when I tried dying some parts red they came out a very very dark drab color which in low light you would have thought was black. I clearly got too much dye into the part and even after boiling them in water 5 times the water would still turn a blood red color. So I think there are tricks to be learned to get the most rich and vibrant colors. And I think part of that is not overdoing the initial dying... something that can't really be done with black. To what extent salt, vinager, water quality, boiling time, etc. play I really don't know but they are variables that I think could affect things. If they don't great... but if they do I'd like to understand how so I can make my puzzles look as good as possible.

Trust me it may not be so obvious in pictures but at the last IPP I had a chance to put one of my red RIT dyed parts next to one of Oskar's Jacquard Acid dyed parts and the difference was night and day. He has a much deeper, richer, and more vibrant red. And I've even seen other red RIT dyed parts that put mine to shame though maybe not quite as good as Oskar's. So there are important variables and vinager sounds like a big one... so maybe the question to ask is what are those variables? And what are their optimal settings? The list I through out was just a guess.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Sorry, I was thinking black only. I'm sure you're right about the other colors. Other colors seem like they'd have so much more variability in the results and matching the color of one batch of dyeing with a second batch is probably very hard.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
bmenrigh wrote:
Sorry, I was thinking black only. I'm sure you're right about the other colors. Other colors seem like they'd have so much more variability in the results and matching the color of one batch of dyeing with a second batch is probably very hard.
I agree. Deep blacks are very easy to achieve, just dump in lots of dye and leave for hours :lol: However, I found that when using other colours, a very scientific approach would be needed to achieve a particular shade (especially if good surface penetration was required) and colour repeatability would be difficult. And don't even try mixing dyes to make other colours :shock:

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:17 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Well I experimented with the food coloring.
The results are interesting to say the least. The VESA puzzles look peachy to orange. They should be yellow.
The maze is green.
The pitcher puzzle is blue :shock:
And finally Darrick's tube is red. That one worked.

Attachment:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 1.21 MiB | Viewed 4736 times ]


I used 20 drops of food color and a couple of tablespoons of vinegar and let it boil for 15 minutes. Not the results I was expecting.

_________________
Rox's Rambling Blog
Katsmom's Puzzling Videos


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:14 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
They actually look pretty funky!

So basically using food colouring as dye works fine....so long as you want a red puzzle.

_________________
Q: How many puzzles does a collector need in their collection?
A: Just one more.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
Are they colourfast? Did you get good dye penetration? What concentrations of mix did you use? How long did you leave the puzzles in the dye for? WE NEED DATA!

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:17 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Gus,
katsmom wrote:
I used 20 drops of food color and a couple of tablespoons of vinegar and let it boil for 15 minutes. Not the results I was expecting.


After I gave the pieces a bath for 30 minutes then put the puzzles together. They seem to be ok. As for the depth, I'm not sure. a couple of microns I'd guess. Probably no more.

We are going to try and do a purple this afternoon. I'm not sure if that will work either.....

_________________
Rox's Rambling Blog
Katsmom's Puzzling Videos


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 3:45 pm
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Apparently RIT Dye has stopped being made. How are people supposed to dye their puzzles now.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Jacob wrote:
Apparently RIT Dye has stopped being made. How are people supposed to dye their puzzles now.

Since when? Source?

Their website loads and works just fine:
http://www.ritdye.com/

But even if it is / were true that Rit dye goes away, there are lots of other dye options. Google "Nylon Acid Dye" and you'll get:
http://www.dharmatrading.com/ad.html

And many other alternatives.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 3:45 pm
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
bmenrigh wrote:
Jacob wrote:
Apparently RIT Dye has stopped being made. How are people supposed to dye their puzzles now.

Since when? Source?

Their website loads and works just fine:
http://www.ritdye.com/

But even if it is / were true that Rit dye goes away, there are lots of other dye options. Google "Nylon Acid Dye" and you'll get:
http://www.dharmatrading.com/ad.html

And many other alternatives.



Well I went to FabricLand to get some, and they said the production has been stopped on that product.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
Location: near Utrecht, Netherlands
It is true, the hot RIT dyes are no longer in production. Other products (hand/machine wash dyes) are still in production but I do not know how well they work for puzzles.

_________________
Tom's Shapeways Puzzle Shop - your order from my shop includes free stickers!
Tom's Puzzle Website


Buy my mass produced puzzles at Mefferts:
- 4x4x6 Cuboid for just $38
- Curvy Copter for just $18
- 3x4x5 Cuboid for just $34


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 3:45 pm
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
So.... No more RIT dye any more?

Why is that anyhow?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: coloring WSF
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
Location: near Utrecht, Netherlands
Whoops, I made a mistake in my last post. I don't have any knowledge of RIT dyes going out of production but I do know that the Dylon tins are being phased out.

_________________
Tom's Shapeways Puzzle Shop - your order from my shop includes free stickers!
Tom's Puzzle Website


Buy my mass produced puzzles at Mefferts:
- 4x4x6 Cuboid for just $38
- Curvy Copter for just $18
- 3x4x5 Cuboid for just $34


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group