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 Post subject: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:49 am 
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Burgo had suggested that we start a thread on "Solving the Camouflage Cube".
Because rline mentioned in the other thread that I could help a bit via PM, I'll just copy this hint here:
(Because this is not personal at all, I do not see a problem to post it)

Hi rline,

I'm in a hurry, because the older granddaughter is a bit ill.
[Spoiler]
If you bandage a 4x4x4 in this way (a 4x4x4 kit would be nice :) ) you have the logical equivalent to my Camouflage 3x3x3:
Image
The large orange/white/green corner is a fully bandaged 2x2x2 block of the 4x4x4.
The blue/red/yellow faces are made one cubie size thicker. ("Extended" means just that to same original piece some plastic is added. E.g. one of my 2x3x4 - the one that got all unsplit internal edges - is now an extended 2x2x3 with strange shape. )

I have no idea, if Witeden uses always the same colour scheme.

If you have not yet scrambled your Camouflage, you might try to recognize first which pieces correspond to 2x2x2 blocks. Only one cubie (in my case white/green/orange corner) corresponds directly to a 2x2x2 block.
Try to scramble and solve it as a 2x2x2 first. This will give you a good understanding of the Camouflage 3x3x3.
Very genaerally speaking, I build these logical 2x2x2 blocks first and solve it afterards as a 2x2x2.

Probably it is a good idea, to bandage a 4x4x4 with some sticker material as in my picture.
Good luck!

[/Spoiler]

Maybe I will not have time before Monday to contribute something to a solving thread.

Konrad

BTW, Burgo has confirmed that his Camouflage 3x3x3 uses a different colour scheme.
So, any pictures I'll post in the future here will be to some extent different from your situation.

The hint above is still vague enough, that you can still solve the puzzle on your own.
If you are completely confused, it may help you getting started.
Have fun!

EDIT:

Here are some pictures, I'll hide the explaining text.

First, you should find out which single corner piece corresponds to a 222 block.
In my case, this is the orange/white/green corner.
Image
This means that my orange / white / green faces are not extended.
To show the corresponding bandaged 444, I cut off from (virtually and using Photoshop not a saw :lol: ) the yellow/ red / orange faces a layer one 4x4x4 cubie size thick:
Image
The backview shows the resulting 4x4x4.

This diagram shows a net of a bandaged 4x4x4 correponding to my Cube. This may be clearer than the first diagram with frontview / backview above:
Image

Here I show how my solved Cube is divided logically into eight (mostly bandaged) 2x2x2 blocks:
Image

The last picture shows my cube slightly scrambled as a 2x2x2:
Image

It might be a good visual training to scramble the Camouflage 3x3x3 first as a 2x2x2 and solve it a few times.
If you have mastered the AI 4x4x4, the Camouflage is not really hard but confusing due to the shapeshifting.

If you have never solved the AI (or alternatively the C4U 336) it may be really hard.

Here are the 8 corners after you have reduced the Camouflage to a 2x2x2:
Image
As you can see, you have to build seven blocks representing the 8 corners of the 2x2x2.
Only one of them has seven pieces as the four 222 blocks on the AI, three consist of two pieces and three of four pieces. I do the edges of the big block first and the 6 centres last.
If you compare just the number of pieces to be solved during the reduction process, the AI has 28, the Camouflage 25.

EDIT2: I added a picture above. Some explanation of it is hidden.

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Last edited by Konrad on Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:07 am 
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Andrea wrote:
Hi friends,

Konrad: ist the camouflage cube harder than an AI 4x4x4 ?
Perhaps I must wait some weeks until my camouflage 3x3x3 arrives. :(
I will not read in the solution thread !

rline: thanks for your unboxing video.

I own the c4u 336 , too. It's not compareable with the Ai 4x4x4, I think. The AI 4x4x4 is more difficult. I played many time with the AI. It's always interesting again.

Hmm the c4u 336. A beginner cannot scramble it, because he don't know a sequence to separate the slice pieces. But if he know the sequence he is able to solve it. I solve this puzzle one time. Thats enough for life. There are many other more interesting puzzles.
Perhaps the SQ224 is a very interesting puzzle. In which angle does the two slices turn ? Like a square-1 ?

Cheers,
Andrea
Hi Andrea,
I would give a similar answer as rline in the other thread.
The Camouflage is even easier to solve than the AI, if you can manage not getting confused by the shapeshifting.
If you bandage a 4x4x4 in the way described above, and you can solve the AI already, you will find the Camouflage style bandaged one easy.

Still, the Camouflage is worth its money, because of the added challenge of shape-shifting, the dazzling factor.

I see a relationship between C4U 336, AI and Camouflage in this sense:
You need to permute layers (like U) idependently from other layers (like u) (WCA notation).
I do all three with very similar sequences based on CPS (Corner Piece Series in the Ultimate Solution) and corner rotation (R F' R' F)x2 and invers; this is called EPS in the Ultimate solution, performed twice).
The 336 is certainly the easiest but it helps if you have solved it before you go to the AI.

And yes, you need an experienced friend to get a decent scramble for the 336. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:27 am 
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Hi Konrad
Quote:
And yes, you need an experienced friend to get a decent scramble for the 336.

Can you expand please? What would you say makes the 336 well scrambled?

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:02 am 
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As Andrea said
Quote:
Hmm the c4u 336. A beginner cannot scramble it, because he don't know a sequence to separate the slice pieces. But if he know the sequence he is able to solve it.
You need move sequences to scramble it. If you know them you can probably solve the puzzle. If a friend scrambles it for you, it becomes a better challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:30 am 
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Konrad wrote:
As Andrea said
Quote:
Hmm the c4u 336. A beginner cannot scramble it, because he don't know a sequence to separate the slice pieces. But if he know the sequence he is able to solve it.
You need move sequences to scramble it. If you know them you can probably solve the puzzle. If a friend scrambles it for you, it becomes a better challenge.

Yes I understand that. What I meant was: how can you be sure it's adequately scrambled? For instance, on the 444AI, when most of the single cubies are separated, I'd assume that's a good scramble. What about on the C4U336? (I know this thread is about the camouflage, but they're all relatred)

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:43 am 
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I permute edges and corners of all 5 outer layers using my move sequences for solving them in a somewhat random manner. When I'm content with this I add a normal 3x3x3 scramble. I do not think that you can do more.
As Andrea said: The puzzle is a bit trivial when you have found your solution move sequences.
It helped me though to find simpler cycles for `corner`3-cycles in one layer only.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:42 am 
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Hi Konrad,RLine, Burgo, Kevin and all other,

thank you for your responses.
perhaps a little bit OT
I solve the AI 444 with block building. The complete bulding of 2x1x1 blocks and then the 2x2x1 blocks are the hardest part. I solve this, making the 2x1x1 inner slice with the same color as the moving 2x1x1 block. So the complexity (entropy) is not more than before.

On the c4u this part is already done. The hardware gives only 2x2x1 blocks . :lol:
To arrange these blocks is not a hard part.

I must wait until my camouflage arrives.
I guessed , like Konrad, that it is an extended bandaged 444, but Witeden disagrees to this statement.
I hope this is a very interesting puzzle.

Cheers,
Andrea


Last edited by Andrea on Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:45 am 
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Andrea wrote:
...The complete bulding of 2x1x1 blocks and then the 2x1x1 blocks are the hardest part. ....

I guessed , like Konrad, that it is an extended bandaged 444, but Witeden disagrees to this statement.
I hope this is a very interesting puzzle.

Cheers,
Andrea
Is there a typo in the first sentence of the quote? "2x1x1 blocks and then the 2x1x1 " sounds a bit redundant.
I'm still waiting for my AI. (I ordered a black one and got the message that the last black in stock was broken :( I have received several puzzles ordered later in the meantime.) I'll go back to the AI and try block building when it will arrive.

I have added a picture to my first post. I cannot hide pictures. So, look at this first post only, if you are anticipating some spoiler. It is still not a method, though. Even if you look at the text and pictures, there remains a lot of work to find a complete solution. :)

Regarding Witeden comments that the Camouflage3x3x3 is not a bandaged 4x4x4:
Probably they mean that the internal mechanism is not equivalent to a 4x4x4 (Still, they showed a Mini 4x4x4 based on it in some picture. I did not look at the mechaism.)
There is no doubt that an experienced modder can change an ordinary 4x4x4 to become a Camouflage, just by extending and bandaging.

Andrea, I'm almost certain you'll like the Camouflage 3x3x3 :D

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Last edited by Konrad on Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:53 am 
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Hi Konrad,

Konrad wrote:
Is there a typo in the first sentence of the quote? "2x1x1 blocks and then the 2x1x1 " sounds a bit redundant.


Yes, it is. The second must 2x2x1 ! I will correct this.

Konrad wrote:
Regarding Witeden comments that the Camouflage3x3x3 is not a bandaged 4x4x4:
Probably they mean that the internal mechanism is not equivalent to a 4x4x4

Yes, I agree with you.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:35 pm 
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I understand that you can solve this as a 2x2x2 once you build the 2x2 blocks. How exactly do you build the blocks? How do you move around the skinny edge pieces?


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:41 pm 
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77mouser wrote:
I understand that you can solve this as a 2x2x2 once you build the 2x2 blocks. How exactly do you build the blocks? How do you move around the skinny edge pieces?
Hi Marcy,

You need to make, and keep, a twistable u layer, to allow you to complete U twists. You also need to take care to set up your `shapes` so that when you make a match that you want, you can reorientate without blocking your `twistable u layer`. Target your `fully extended` 222 block first (in Konrad's diagram, his is the red, yellow, blue block) and then store it on the Dd layer. Your completely bandaged 222 corner (the non-extended one will be permenently kept on the Dd layer, because it will `always` block a u twist, for example). The sequences are simple: domino sequences, (F'RFR')x2 for corner orientations, the tricky part is visually.

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:06 pm 
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77mouser wrote:
I understand that you can solve this as a 2x2x2 once you build the 2x2 blocks. How exactly do you build the blocks? How do you move around the skinny edge pieces?
Hi Marcy, have you solved the AI bandaged 4x4x4? If not, it is my strong opinion, that the Camouflage is very hard.
If you have solved the AI and have understood how the Camouflage 3x3x3 is related to a 4x4x4, the problem is visually, as Burgo explained.

I you have not got an AI, I recommed bandaging an ordinary 4x4x4 (using the colour scheme of your Camouflage), as shown in my pictures above.
Good luck! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:44 am 
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Hi Konrad, Burgo,rline annd all other

I'm not able to solve my camouflage cube. my isolated corner is the white/green/red.
So the white/blue/red must have one adjacent piece, the red piece. I brought together this. The third piece should be white/orange/blue. Bring the blue/white together with theo corner, this works. But connect this to the white center doesn't work.
The middle layers are blocked.
I cannot agree, that this cube is less hard than AI 4x4x4.
My cube is much scrambled, it's not possible to put it back into the box.

Please help me !

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:53 am 
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Andrea wrote:
... my isolated corner is the white/green/red.
So the white/blue/red must have one adjacent piece, the red piece. I brought together this. The third piece should be white/orange/blue. Bring the blue/white together with theo corner, this works. But connect this to the white center doesn't work.
The middle layers are blocked.
I cannot agree, that this cube is less hard than AI 4x4x4.
My cube is much scrambled, it's not possible to put it back into the box.

Please help me !

Cheers,
Andrea
Hello Andrea,
I'm not sure what you mean by "isolated corner".
You have to find out which corner represents a fully bandaged 2x2x2 block on a corresponding 4x4x4.
If "isolated corner" means this, a net of a normal, bandaged 4x4x4 would look like this:

Image
This would mean that the white/red/green faces on the Camouflage are not extended and you need to cut off the opposite faces to see the normal bandaged 4x4x4.
Or do you mean just the opposite, that the isolated corner is the corner in the single normal 2x2x2 block?
Image
Does "red piece" refer to a red centre?
Three centres are located in the single "normal" 2x2x2 block, the other three are part of 2x2x2 blocks built by four Camouflage pieces.

The important first step is to create a mental picture of a bandaged 4x4x4 corresponding to your Camouflage.
You can even bandage a real one to represent your Camouflage colour scheme.

It is a bit unfortunate that Witeden does not use a single, uniform colour scheme. This makes describing things for other puzzlers with a different colour scheme much harder.

EDIT: An easy method to identify the totally bandaged 2x2x2 block is looking at the centres. Three centres are not extended. These three surrond the corner which is indeed a fully bandaged 2x2x2 block. And not extended centres are always lower or equal to other pieces on that face, they never stick out.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Hi Konrad,

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "isolated corner".


In your earlier posting you make a table. One corner has no neighbors, 3 corners have 3 neighbors and one corner has 6 neighbors.
With isolated corner I meant the corner with no neighbors. In your picture it is white green and orange( the color looks like red but the second column has the red pieces).
On my cube this corner has white, red and green.

It's the bandaged piece, I think. The opposite ( im my case yellow,orange blue) is the corner with 6 neighbors and it's corner is extended , ok ?
It's very different to an AI 4x4x4 because it's not always possible to exchange pieces.
I put 5 pieces in the first layer together(3 corners and 2 edges). More isn't possible for me.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:49 pm 
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OK, this means my first diagram in the post above refers to your Camouflage.
Probably it is pretty hard now in the scrambled state to see how AI sequences can be used.
I use actually the same two simple sequences as on the AI and set them together in a similar way.
Because I want to make U and u turns independently I have the bandaged 2x2x2 always in the Dd layer.

Why not make a bandaged 4y4x4 in the same colour scheme as your Camouflage?
I'm sure you will recognize the similarity to the AI.

EDIT: I made this picture showing the cuts that divide your Camouflage into 2x2x2 blocks. The dark blue cut divides the lower two 4x4x4 layers into D and d. If you hold these two layers as U and u, you can use AI sequences:
Image
As you can see in my table above 1 corner (white/red/green) represents a fully bandaged 2x2x2 block, 1 2x2x2 block consists out of 7 pieces as on a normal 4x4x4 (blue/orange yellow- 1 corner, three edges, three centres), 3 blocks consist of 2 pieces and 3 blocks of 4 pieces.
So, the minimum in a Uu layer are seven Camouflage pieces.
You have to find setup situations where you can turn U and u independently and from there you can build 2x2x2 bocks.
I start usually with building the seven pieces block.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:10 am 
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Well i went ahead and made some videos on solving the 3x3x3 camouflage cube, for anyone who might benefit. Thanks to Konrad and Burgo as always for their greater ability to see what was going on with the puzzle and to let me know! the videos are not designed with them in mind!

Rather, they're for anyone who's confused by the cube, or can't make any headway with it. I hope they're clear and helpful.

My preferred method is to start by reducing the blocks on a layer which contains the fully bandaged piece. In my case that's white-orange-blue. Since the colours are different, this is the only aspect which (as Konrad mentioned) would make videos difficult in this case, but the principles are the same. I like white so i start by reducing the white layer. Then I move onto the other face/layer, which contains the fully extended block. I reduce the fully extended block first. Even though it's possibly simpler to solve this piece first out of all of them, for me, I find it visually easier to do it this way.

Written tutorial: http://twistypuzzling.blogspot.com.au/2 ... -cube.html

Videos only
Pt 1 - Important Intro
Pt 2 - Reduce the First Layer (with the fully bandaged block)
Pt 3 - Reduce the Second layer (with the fully extended block)
Pt 4 - Solve the Reduced 2x2x2

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:48 am 
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Hi friends,
I solved my camouflage cube.

Thank you Konrad for your detailed pictures.
rline:
Thank you for your fantastic video, it helped me , too.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
Hi friends,
I solved my camouflage cube.
...
Congratulations Andrea! :)
Now, what do you say about the similarity to the AI?
When I had understood the nature of the AI -and this first step took me a while -, I could solve it immediately using the same sequences as for the AI.
@rline: I had a quick glance at your blogspot. Great job! It may help some desperate people! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
@rline: I had a quick glance at your blogspot. Great job! It may help some desperate people! :lol:

Thanks Konrad. In fairness, I think almost everyone except you and Burgo could be classed as "desperate people"! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:31 pm 
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rline wrote:
Thanks Konrad. In fairness, I think almost everyone except you and Burgo could be classed as "desperate people"! :D

I haven't really had much chance to play with mine yet - what I have seen is pretty confusing but I'd definitely class myself as desperate! :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:08 am 
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Well having scrambled it by accident whilst trying to work out what was going on inside. I really had no idea what was going on. (I haven't read the spoilers further up the page), I tried to work out what Konrad and others meant by it being a bandaged and extended 4x4. That statement just didn't make sense to me at all! I dismantled it and looked inside - oddly, unlike Rline, this didn't help me at all! (it's not the easiest thing to put back together)!

So I have watched just the introductory video on Rline's site - Thank you thank you thank you. Now I understand what Konrad meant! I have now done a quick 2x2 scramble and solved it as a 2x2 and then the true horror has hit me - because of the bandaging you can't solve it like a 4x4 (it's impossible to do the edge pairing)! It has to be reduced to a 2x2 just like the AI cube! I really hope it's not quite as bad as the AI! I can do it but it takes a really long time. My initial thoughts are that there will be less to it than the AI but hopefully will get time to have a proper go today!

So so many puzzles to play with and so little time! :?

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:16 am 
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Hi Konrad,
Quote:
Now, what do you say about the similarity to the AI?


Ok, the methods to exchange pieces are the same. There is only one 2x2x2 block with 7 pieces, but this fact makes it not easier.
It's not easy to put the centers together with the edges. It's more difficult to recognize the different pieces.
Mix all together this , perhaps it's as hard as the AI 4x4, Ok ?

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
perhaps it's as hard as the AI 4x4, Ok ?

Hi Andrea (and crew),

I have solved my 3x3 camouflage cube! :D and I can only say:
It is awesome :D :D

It has taken me hours and hours to do it! There were a few phases to my achievement - initially, I just could not understand what to do! I could only assemble 3/4 of the bottom layer! I then decided to assemble the final 1/4 on the top layer and place it back down again. It then took me an age to work out that I could use the same piece rotations as the AI cube. For some reason I just could not accept that it was ok to let the bottom layer mix up again. After a whole day of on-off cubing it hit me like a thunder clap and it was done!

I think that it is a little easier than the AI in terms of what is required i.e. less parts to assemble but equally made very much harder by the shape shifting - even knowing what was going on did not help me get my head around the dreadful changes in shape!

It is also really hard to scramble well!

So I managed it twice without help! I'm staggered! Now I'll watch Rline's full set of videos and read Konrad's hidden spoilers!

Next I need to go back to Burgo's flying carpets and attempt the 3x3x2 and 3x3x4 camouflage cubes too! :shock: so many puzzles and so little time.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:00 pm 
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wahey! i wasn't far behind you kevin - I spent the weekend learning the AI last weekend, then bandaged my 4x4x4 as per konrads diagrams, and found that quite easy to solve, but was still struggling with the camouflage cube, so clearly it had to be a perspective thing. Then laying in bed last night i had a minor epiphany that let me understand which pieces needed to go together without spoiling things for myself too much with other peoples hints - i even resisted watching any of rlines videos, as hard as that was :D

A big part actually was realising which piece was my 2x2x2 bandaged block, i was thinking it was one of the white layer all this time - it turned out to be orange yellow blue!

now i just need to get a really good scramble on it, which i don't think i did really in the solve i just did, however, it didnt feel like an easy solve or anything, i was still having to put things together AI style.

I do now sort of see what konrad meant with the easier than the AI comments - because so many of the pieces are bandaged together, there's less you actually have to put together yourself. Its been a good day, solved this and the pyraminx crystal for the first time :D

Now I have a similar problem to you kevin - as i also have the 3x3x2 and the 3x3x4's sitting here waiting to be played with, however i have to perform a minor dismantling to use my 3x3x2 as I've lost a centre piece after a pop of the 3x3x3 and cannibalised the 3x3x2 to fix it.

I'm still trying to work out what the 3x3x2 and 3x3x4 represent, whether they are also essentiall bandaged 4x4x4's too or not...still haven't figured that out yet

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Hi friends,

Kevin:
Quote:
I have solved my 3x3 camouflage cube!


Congratulation!

Kevin, Martywolfman, and all other:

What do you think about the sq224 ?
Does some of the writer here onw this?

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:07 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
What do you think about the sq224 ?
Does some of the writer here onw this?

Hi Andrea,

I don't think very many will have received it yet as it has only just been released.
I have to say that most of the new ones seem to be a mix of camouflage and mixup cubes and whilst they are incredible I don't think I will be getting them. I did solve the 3x3 and 4x4 mixup cubes but did not find it particularly fun so do not plan on getting them.

I think I will get the 2x2x3 camouflage 1 cube - this doesn't have the mixup aspect. The only problem is that the online stores only seem to be stocking the type 2 which I don't want. Hopefully Calvin will get both types in.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3 - Warning Spoiler ahead
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:22 am 
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Andrea wrote:
What do you think about the sq224 ?
Does some of the writer here onw this?


I'm not sure whether i should get this or get a mix up plus first, as i havent got any og the mixups yet... i can't decide. I may have to just end up getting both :D

Puzzlemad wrote:

I think I will get the 2x2x3 camouflage 1 cube - this doesn't have the mixup aspect. The only problem is that the online stores only seem to be stocking the type 2 which I don't want. Hopefully Calvin will get both types in.


Calvin only has the type 2 at the moment, I don't know why. But you can get the type 1 at WitEden's own online store:

http://witeden.com/goods.php?id=469

I solved the 3x3x3 a couple more times last night, and like you kevin I can do it without any help, although i do like to keep another cube nearby just to be able to look at the colour scheme, as that helps me with which colours require require which pices in a '2x2' block. It's a lot of fun now the frustration is gone, hehe :D

I've had a little play around with the 3x3x2 and the 3x3x4 last night before bed, but didn't scramble them yet. I'm pretty sure i know what's going on with them now (hopefully...) so i will hopefully solve them after work this evening. I had another look at the 2x3x4 on witedens youtube channel and i think i know what the situation is with that now too, so i will probably end up buying that too.

Such good, cleverly designed puzzles that i can overlook the slightly disappointing build quality of them :)

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:26 am 
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martywolfman wrote:
....Such good, cleverly designed puzzles that i can overlook the slightly disappointing build quality of them :)
I support this statement. (So far I have got the Camouflage 3x3x3 only)

EDIT: I have changed the title of the thread. By now the "Warning Spoiler Ahead" will be unnecessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:35 pm 
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I solved the Camouflage 2x3x3 today. It's easier then the Camouflage 3x3x3.
It has 2 2x2x2 blocks. I solved it with the green face down and the 2x2x2 blocks are DR and DL.

Konrad, thank you for the "4x4x4 AI" tip. Without this tip I had no chance to solve it.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Dreiser wrote:

Konrad, thank you for the "4x4x4 AI" tip. Without this tip I had no chance to solve it.



yep - same here. that taught me all i needed to know :)

I came here to say similar things Dreisler, I've solved both the 3x3x2 and the 3x3x4 today. Once you can solve the 3x3x3 you can do both of these too, you just have to spend a little time figuring out how the '2x2' block equivalents are divided up. the 3x3x4 is especially fun, because it scrambles quite a bit better than the other two.

I did get to a situation where it was all solved apart from 2 of the small centres which were swapped which was frustrating me briefly, but i i just had to go back to the AI final block techniques, and that was soon sorted out, and the puzzle solved. Very much fun these puzzles - i want all of the new bacth they released now! I will have to talk nicely to santa :D

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Quote:
I came here to say similar things Dreisler, I've solved both the 3x3x2 and the 3x3x4 today. Once you can solve the 3x3x3 you can do both of these too, you just have to spend a little time figuring out how the '2x2' block equivalents are divided up. the 3x3x4 is especially fun, because it scrambles quite a bit better than the other two.

So let me see if I understand correctly.

The 332 and 334 are very similar to the 333. They don't present new solving challenges?

But the 234 and 223 type I (both of which are not mixup varieties) should present a different solving challenge? Or do we not know that yet?

I assume the mixup varieites would present different solving challenges again but that's only if you actually want to get them.

It's interesting how with the camouflage cube there's really only one bit which caused people (including me) to not understand what's going on. as soon as we were shown this, it became fun. This is what, in my opinion, makes people like Burgo and Konrad (and probably many others who don't post) such great solvers: they have the ability to "see" where things are at, and know what to do, often without actually solving it.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:27 pm 
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rline wrote:

The 332 and 334 are very similar to the 333. They don't present new solving challenges?



Not really, no. But I must say i prefer the 334 out of the three cubes. It definitely scrambles better so offers a more challenging solve, if not any extra solving challenges (try saying that when you're drunk!)

rline wrote:

I assume the mixup varieites would present different solving challenges again but that's only if you actually want to get them.



Presumably - I'm wondering whether i should try these first or the mix up plus - probably best to get one of each :D

rline wrote:


It's interesting how with the camouflage cube there's really only one bit which caused people (including me) to not understand what's going on. as soon as we were shown this, it became fun. This is what, in my opinion, makes people like Burgo and Konrad (and probably many others who don't post) such great solvers: they have the ability to "see" where things are at, and know what to do, often without actually solving it.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. These puzzles would probably have frustrated me to the point of them remaining unsolved forever without a couple of little hints. I do sometimes almost feel like I'm cheating when i look for them, but i definitely get more out of the puzzles this way. If I'm totally flummoxed, i will look for a small hint, not a whole tutorial, until I see somethign that helps me get the right perspective, then try it again.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Thanks to everybody for the nice comments.
I see them as a confirmation of the strategy pursued by the posts in this and other threads (like the Bandaged 3x3x3): do give little hints, but let people find the solution themselves. Let people decide if they want to read more details (hidden in [Spoiler] brackets) or not.
And after a while for those who are still struggling, wonderful detailed videos show up as on rline's blogspot. :)

Happy puzzling, as Uwe always says!

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Well guys (you are one of us Andrea!),
I have just today solved the camouflage 3x3x4 and I have to say it is by far the best of the 3 puzzles released in the first batch!

They all share pretty much the same approach to the solve in the reduction technique like the AI cube. I started with the 3x3 but only after Rline's video explanation was i able to get my head around it! The 3x3x2 has so few parts to scramble that I found it trivially easy to solve after the 3x3 and then the 3x3x4 was MUCH more fun - it is possible with a bit of effort to really scramble it well and then the solve takes quite a lot of thought! Ultimately it shares the same reduction idea but having to reconstruct several different sizes of subcubes is much more challenging. I even ended up with a scenario where I had to unravel one to do another. This has been great fun and has taken quite a few hours for me (remember I'm not terribly bright!) and has been most enjoyable - a colleague watched me do the last 15 minutes and I loved the look on his face as I explained step by step what I was aiming to do! He could just not understand having such control of the individual pieces!

The only downside to this one is the method of construction means that the pieces are all very loose and springy - I actually had 2 complete explosions whilst I learned my techniques! I can't see any easy way to prevent them, you just have to be very careful!

So if you are hesitating about buying - go for it - if you only get 1 make it the 3x3x4!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:30 pm 
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I totally agree kevin, i came to similar conclusions in my post above :)

It scrambles better and is more fun to solve.

After you've solved it a few more times, you might spot something that makes things a little easier with swapping pieces between different blocks, it took me a few solves to notice it :) still takes me 30 mins or so to solve this thing though, its a lot of fun, one of my favourite puzzles at the moment. Now i want to try the other varieties in the new batch - not really enough money lying around for them at the moment though with christmas coming up and other bits and pieces - I'll have to speak nicely to santa!

I agree with the popping too - i have actually lost one small 'centre' piece from the 3x3x3, and another one went missing from the 334 for 20 minutes too - far too easy for this to happen, which is a shame. The build quality of these does let them down a little which is a real shame, definitely not up to witedens usual high standards

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:11 pm 
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martywolfman wrote:
After you've solved it a few more times, you might spot something that makes things a little easier with swapping pieces between different blocks

Yes! I noticed what was required the second time. Basically it is critical what order you solve the sub-cubes in. If they are done in the correct order you avoid all the most horrendous problems of piece swapping! Tthis makes it much easier but doesn't stop it being a great fun solve!

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:56 am 
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Puzzlemad wrote:
Well guys (you are one of us Andrea!)....
I have learned only a few days ago, that in casual English "guys" includes the female gender as well. Before I had assumed that it is a bit unfriendly not including Andrea and other brilliant female puzzle enthusiasts.
Personally, I'll stick with something like "Hey puzzle friends".
More on topic: I'm afraid that I have to order some more of the Camouflage puzzles. :roll:
I've got the 3x3x3 only, so far.
As Kevin always says: So many puzzles and so little time :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:24 am 
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Hi guys,

Quote:
I have learned only a few days ago, that in casual English "guys" includes the female gender as well.

Thank you Konrad. I was unsure. Now I'm sure.
Quote:
More on topic: I'm afraid that I have to order some more of the Camouflage puzzles.


In my opinion the sq224 is very interesting. I saw a video. It's not based on a Mixup Cube, I think.

Quote:
As Kevin always says: So many puzzles and so little time

And I say: So many puzzles and so little money.

Cheers,
Andrea

PS:
Congratulation to your moderator status.


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:00 am 
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Andrea wrote:
And I say: So many puzzles and so little money.



Yep, thats my problem more than the time :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Camouflage 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Thank you all for posting on this interesting topic (which I had requested some time earlier).

As a matter of fact, I understood most of the posts, but I still was not able to solve a scrambled cube though because every now and then I was forced into mistakes that occur from using a different colour-scheme.

Rline has made quite a decent tutorial for users like me on youtube. It fits my need perfectly and I am now able to solve my Camouflage Cube. Maybe it will take some time to do this without looking into the solution videos, but I am very happy with the results so far.

If you are interested, the link to his website is as follows (@Moderators: please remove this if you find this inappropriate):
http://twistypuzzling.blogspot.de/2012/11/3x3x3-camouflage-cube.html


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