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 Post subject: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:06 pm 
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Having collected and solving puzzles for a while now, and not having enough funds for new puzzles I've been considering putting super stickers most of my puzzles. I've already started on the helicopter cube and I must say I'm not disappointed :). Now, I have vertex, edge, and face turners varying in platonic shapes along with cuboids. I was wondering what kind of puzzle, if made "super", would be the most difficult to solve?

If anyone does respond, try to give examples of puzzles that are sub 50 dollars please :)


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:24 pm 
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A mastermorphinx would be a good super puzzle, also any higher order cuboid would be a good challenge.


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:42 pm 
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I feel like in the case of shape modification, is a "super" transformation with the bonus of pieces having false equivocation. If you placed super stickers on the master pyramorphinx, it would lose the purpose of the shape mod. Yes, high order cuboids would be difficult but in the end, repetitive. But this is my opinion and I bet a 4x4x5 would be very fun so thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:03 pm 
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I don't know if applying "super" stickers to any puzzle will necessarily make it harder. In some cases, it may actually make it easier, even if more tedious. On the 4x4x4, for example, you wouldn't have to deal with parity issues, so in theory it should be "easier". OTOH, it does make face centers sensitive to precise orientation, so that sorta offsets it. So it's hard to say whether it will be harder or not. Maybe just hard in a different way.


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:48 pm 
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quickfur wrote:
I don't know if applying "super" stickers to any puzzle will necessarily make it harder. In some cases, it may actually make it easier, even if more tedious. On the 4x4x4, for example, you wouldn't have to deal with parity issues, so in theory it should be "easier". OTOH, it does make face centers sensitive to precise orientation, so that sorta offsets it. So it's hard to say whether it will be harder or not. Maybe just hard in a different way.


For the Super-4x4x4, this is not correct. The edge-wings can be in any permutation regardless of the state of the centers.

What you say is somewhat true for Super-5x5x5 because if the edge-wings are in an odd permutation then the + centers must be too.

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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:14 pm 
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I was trying to come up with a "super" puzzle that would be really hard to solve and the only thing that I could come up with is the 1x1x1. If you stickered it with supercube stickers, it would be Super hard to solve! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:37 pm 
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CatzRuleZWorld wrote:
I was trying to come up with a "super" puzzle that would be really hard to solve and the only thing that I could come up with is the 1x1x1. If you stickered it with supercube stickers, it would be Super hard to solve! :lol:

I can think of one: the super 7x7x7x7x7x7x7 cube. (That's a 7D cube with super stickers, meaning that every sticker has 15 colors: one main color and 14 colors of adjacent hypercubic facets.) :twisted:

(Yes, that link leads to a site where you can download a program that lets you do a 7D cube, and no, I have not solved it before, and no, I will not even attempt to do that. :P )

Or, if 7D is a bit too far beyond your grasp, what about a super magic 120-cell? That's 120 super megaminxs (well, approximately speaking, it doesn't work exactly the same) glued together into a 4D ball. The non-super magic 120-cell already has a hilariously huge number of combinations (something like 10^8126 -- that's a number with more than eight thousand digits!), can you imagine the insanity that will result when you use super stickers on that? :twisted: :lol: :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:23 pm 
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quickfur wrote:
Or, if 7D is a bit too far beyond your grasp, what about a super magic 120-cell? That's 120 super megaminxs (well, approximately speaking, it doesn't work exactly the same) glued together into a 4D ball. The non-super magic 120-cell already has a hilariously huge number of combinations (something like 10^8126 -- that's a number with more than eight thousand digits!), can you imagine the insanity that will result when you use super stickers on that? :twisted: :lol: :shock:


Well, after solving MC4D (3x3x3x3), the 120-cell is not THAT hard. Just like after being able to solve the 3x3x3, Megaminx is immediately reachable, just more tedious. The problem of 120-cell is that it's very hard to find a piece from thousands of them. Once you find the piece, it's relatively easy to handle it. This difficulty is not of the same direction. As one of the solvers of 120-cell, I would say the additional difficulty of adding super sticker on it (making centers orientation sensitive) is very small.

By the way, I'm solving the 600-cell recently and finding pieces is also very hard there... as you can imagine.


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:15 pm 
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schuma wrote:
quickfur wrote:
Or, if 7D is a bit too far beyond your grasp, what about a super magic 120-cell? That's 120 super megaminxs (well, approximately speaking, it doesn't work exactly the same) glued together into a 4D ball. The non-super magic 120-cell already has a hilariously huge number of combinations (something like 10^8126 -- that's a number with more than eight thousand digits!), can you imagine the insanity that will result when you use super stickers on that? :twisted: :lol: :shock:


Well, after solving MC4D (3x3x3x3), the 120-cell is not THAT hard. Just like after being able to solve the 3x3x3, Megaminx is immediately reachable, just more tedious. The problem of 120-cell is that it's very hard to find a piece from thousands of them. Once you find the piece, it's relatively easy to handle it. This difficulty is not of the same direction. As one of the solvers of 120-cell, I would say the additional difficulty of adding super sticker on it (making centers orientation sensitive) is very small.

By the way, I'm solving the 600-cell recently and finding pieces is also very hard there... as you can imagine.

True, the magic 120-cell is just a (very) shallow cut puzzle, so it's essentially just repeating the same solution over and over again, ~120 times.

Now, a more challenging puzzle would be a 600-cell bisected perpendicular to all of its vertices. The 600-cell can be bisected if you ignore the 60 tetrahedra on its equator; in a puzzle, we can make it so that the upper and lower halves rotate independently of the equatorial cells (the equatorial cells themselves would, of course, be permutable by rotating other 600-cell halves). This would be the 4D equivalent of the bisected icosahedron (the one on gelatinbrain where the cuts bisect the puzzle). I expect this one to be extremely hard. :twisted: Not only you have a deep-cut puzzle where one wrong turn can totally screw up the whole puzzle, this is 4D and the bisecting cuts can rotate around the full 3D set of 3 axes. So many ways for a solution to go wrong! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:41 pm 
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You don't actually have to go big to have a hard puzzle. The hardest puzzle I've ever solved (as measured by amount of time and effort I had to put into finding a solution) was the Complex 3x3x3 (with super-stickers). It only has 64 pieces. To put that in context, a Megaminx has 62 pieces.

One of the things that makes a puzzle hard is "interconnectedness" which is closely related to the depth of the cut. A complex puzzle is maximally interconnected which makes sequence finding quite challenging.

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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:03 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
You don't actually have to go big to have a hard puzzle. The hardest puzzle I've ever solved (as measured by amount of time and effort I had to put into finding a solution) was the Complex 3x3x3 (with super-stickers). It only has 64 pieces. To put that in context, a Megaminx has 62 pieces.

One of the things that makes a puzzle hard is "interconnectedness" which is closely related to the depth of the cut. A complex puzzle is maximally interconnected which makes sequence finding quite challenging.

True! That's why the skewb diamond is quite hard for a puzzle with only 14 pieces. And the bisected icosahedron is a puzzle that I've been fascinated with, but playing with it on gelatinbrain I couldn't even imagine where to begin. There are just so many ways to turn and each one affects a large number of pieces. Finding simple commutators on it has eluded me thus far. (Though part of it, is that I have trouble with mouse-driven interfaces to puzzles... I much prefer a physical puzzle where I can, say, keep a finger on a reference point where on-screen I'd lose track of my position easily. Esp. when clicking on just the wrong place makes it turn a way I didn't intend, interfering with my train of thought.)

Having said that though, if you have both large numbers of pieces and high interconnectedness, that adds to the difficulty. :)


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 Post subject: Re: "Super" difficulty question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:06 am 
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Oh geez! Magic Cells, 4-7D cubes, complex cubes, I did not know those things existed on the web. All of those I'm sure are far beyond my comprehension as of now and I would not know how to form a strategy. Obviously you would use commutators but extra dimensional, abstract geometric puzzles are a bit overwhelming for myself. However, its very refreshing to see what I can look forward to solve :D . As for interconnectedness, would that mean a tetrahedral puzzle, say like a professor pyraminx, be a good candidate to super sticker?


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