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 Post subject: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:48 am 
I would like to understand the knock off policy more. I used to be on this forum, requested to be taken off and have matured much so I am now a member again. I honestly don't know my way around that well and have tried to search for this topic but maybe I was doing it wrong.

Anyways, I would like to know the policy here about modifications that have used knock offs as a base. The reason I ask is because I've seen many disputes about the KO policy and have even been in one myself a loooong time ago. However, I've seen many many puzzle creations here, including my own 8x8 Barrel puzzle that somebody else posted here, where nobody has said anything about it. These puzzles are CLEARLY knock offs though. In the threads of these puzzles the creators failed to mention they were knock offs, but anybody with experience spotting knock off puzzles such as myself and see that they are indeed knock offs.

I would really like to know this because I've gained experience with puzzle modding, and would like to show creations here in the future. I personally find V Cubes difficult to work with and their knock off competitor's puzzles are much easier and the mechanism is altered in such a way that offers more options than the V Cubes. I have seen puzzles on this forum that use this exact method, the same puzzles for the same reasons and I'm wondering if it's allowed if we just don't mention it's a knock off.

I really don't mean any disrespect here to V Cubes or any other patent owning companies or peoples with intellectual property claims. I'm just looking to clarify. That is all. Thank you.

Also, I've very glad to be a member of TwistPuzzlesForum again. I hope to be a contributing active member with positive knowledge to give and am here to learn and be part of a growing community =)


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:49 am 
I'm sorry that this is listed under New Puzzles, I did't know how to change that.


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:13 am 
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A moderator can change what sub forum this thread is under.

As for modding KO puzzles, obviously the forum (not necessarily individual members of the forum) would not endorse the use of KO products, but you can still show your puzzles here. Just don't mention which brand of puzzle they were made from. Apart from that, feel free to show off your puzzles! :)

Oh, and welcome back to the forum. :)

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:40 am 
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It's up to you if you buy KO puzzles, it's just that you shouldn't advertise the fact that you are using them on these forums. Simply say, for example, "this is a mod to a 5x5x5 cube" and that should be sufficient.

I know how much you enjoy twisty puzzles (especially cuboids) as I watch all of your YouTube videos, so welcome back.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:45 am 
Alright. That is what I thought. I will not advertise here what I'm using obviously. I don't use KO for everything just so people know, but for complicated things I tend to do so. Some are pretty obvious though as only KO companies make some puzzles, but I will never mention names or anything. I do make video's though, and if I link them here and people watch them, I do say if it's a KO in the video, so I don't know if I should post video's here haha. hmmmm. I just don't want what happened last time I was on this forum to repeat.


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:01 am 
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The key is to show respect to original designers, but then respect is something that should be extended to everyone (except those who don't show respect to others). If you follow that basic principle then I'm sure you won't have any problems. And just by asking, your first post is a good start...

Looking forward to seeing your mods, and welcome back! :D

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:05 pm 
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This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:16 pm 
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darryl wrote:
This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d

I wasn't aware that was a rule, or even accepted practice (let alone obvious), so please could one of the mods confirm/clarify, thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:18 pm 
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darryl wrote:
This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d

People have used KOs for mods in the past without issue. Modding adds value and showing off mods isn't an advertisement for the underlying KO. I'd like to hear what Dave has to say about this.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:19 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
darryl wrote:
This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d

People have used KOs for mods in the past without issue. Modding adds value and showing off mods isn't an advertisement for the underlying KO. I'd like to hear what Dave has to say about this.

Exactly my thoughts too, which is why I was surprised by darryl's claim and raised the question. In reality I think few people would risk modding with an expensive original hand-made custom puzzle. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:02 pm 
darryl wrote:
This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d


I've seen puzzles sold out of this place that are made from KO's without any kind of issue. People complimented them and everything. As far as I can tell from everything I've read, from today and previous readings, if you don't mention the names and advertise the original product and still show respect for the original inventor, people are cool with it. However, I think this decision should really be put to administration/moderator and see what they have to say about it. I haven't seen moderator's do anything about it before, but I've had limited time here. I just don't want to be looked at like the bad guy for doing such things. I still have respect where it's needed, just not as much as some certain people would that's all.


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Hello Dan, if you have matured then I welcome you back.


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:02 pm 
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hawk wrote:
Hello Dan, if you have matured then I welcome you back.
C'mon there isn't a need for a preemptive list of things not to do.

Let's try to keep the forum friendly and constructive like it is 99% of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Welcome back CrazyBadCuber. You are one of my favorite YouTube cubers, and I'm glad to see you here.

I agree that the issue of linking to videos containing KOs needs to be addressed in the KO policy.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:36 pm 
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I wasn't going to post any of my mods in order to avoid conflict with the TP KO policy, so I would welcome a clear statement on this issue.

I think that the TP KO policy "is what it is" and attempts to hold it up to legal standards or argue against it are misplaced. It is a policy of this site, it is not open for discussion, and we must either abide by it or find another site.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:09 pm 
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darryl wrote:
This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d

I totally agree. Selling a KO is selling a KO whatever you have done to it. Otherwise people could shave 1 mm from a KO 9x9x9 and sell it as a mod.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
darryl wrote:
This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d

I totally agree. Selling a KO is selling a KO whatever you have done to it. Otherwise people could shave 1 mm from a KO 9x9x9 and sell it as a mod.

I don't want to start anything, but what about when you sold the fisher cube back in the 80s? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Rubik's Cube patent (applied for in 1975) was still protected. Am I missing something here?


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:47 pm 
Tony Fisher wrote:
darryl wrote:
This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d

I totally agree. Selling a KO is selling a KO whatever you have done to it. Otherwise people could shave 1 mm from a KO 9x9x9 and sell it as a mod.



Ok, I can understand that, but I've seen MANY custom made puzzles that are made out of knock offs being sold out of here. Unless a lot of people are completely oblivious as to which puzzles are knock offs or not, I'm lead to believe that some people might have moral issues with it, but it doesn't really violate the knock off policy. I don't know.

Just to clarify, I'm not looking to sell puzzles like that out of here unless it's completely allowed. I can do all of that on my YouTube channel if I really wanted to do that. I'm just looking to clarify the situation now so I don't get upset about the tiny technicalities that some people care about later. That's all.


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:51 pm 
Benf207 wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
darryl wrote:
This may be obvious, but if you plan on selling your mods and advertising through the forum, obviously they shouldn't be made from KO's.

-d

I totally agree. Selling a KO is selling a KO whatever you have done to it. Otherwise people could shave 1 mm from a KO 9x9x9 and sell it as a mod.

I don't want to start anything, but what about when you sold the fisher cube back in the 80s? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Rubik's Cube patent (applied for in 1975) was still protected. Am I missing something here?


Ben, I think back then the TwistyPuzzlesForum didn't exist because the internet didn't even exist. Whatever Tony did back in the 80's is back in the 80's. We're trying to debate or discuss within ourselves what this Forum allows, at least until the Moderator sees this and tells us what the rule actually is. I'm actually surprised at the amount of different opinions. I would have though this subject would have been talked about enough that people that have been here a long time would all know for sure :-S


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:13 pm 
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Far too much theoretical discussion here. Just wait for the mods to give their view on this.

Meanwhile, to be more pragmatic about this (and getting back to the general principle of respect), why not just ask the original designer if they are ok about you buying a single KO just to cut up and make a mod. If they say it's ok then it doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks about it. You could even offer to give them a portion of the proceeds when you sell the mod, then everyone is happy. :D :D :D

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Last edited by KelvinS on Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Benf207 wrote:
I don't want to start anything, but what about when you sold the fisher cube back in the 80s? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Rubik's Cube patent (applied for in 1975) was still protected. Am I missing something here?

Yes you are.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:18 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Benf207 wrote:
I don't want to start anything, but what about when you sold the fisher cube back in the 80s? Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Rubik's Cube patent (applied for in 1975) was still protected. Am I missing something here?

Yes you are.

Feel free to elaborate if you wish.


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:18 pm 
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I think Tony's point is that he bought the original puzzle from the rightful owner (licensed distributor/retailer), rather than an illegal copy from a KO manufacturer.

Now c'mon guys, let's stop over-complicating this and making a mountain out of a molehill. Think solutions rather than problems. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:27 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
I think Tony's point is that he bought the original puzzle from the rightful owner (licensed distributor/retailer), rather than an illegal copy from a KO manufacturer.

Now c'mon guys, let's stop over-complicating this and making a mountain out of a molehill. Think solutions rather than problems. :roll:

Alright, fair enough, my apologies Tony.

Back on topic: I think there are many problems and double standards that exist within the site's KO policy. For example, the line "all puzzles currently in production by their rightful owners" is not always followed and excuses are made for certain puzzles such as the 3x3. I also think that certain puzzles are judged by the manufacturer such as Shengshou, etc. and that if they were to be produced by a more reputable company may have been viewed differently.


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:37 pm 
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I think that if you are selling a puzzle made from a KO you need to disclose that. If it's here or on your YouTube channel people will find out. There's no point in keeping it quiet. It won't happen anyway.

Selling a puzzle on TP made from a KO seems to me to be a violation of the spirit of the KO policy. I would say don't do it.

As for the posting of the mods you have made, can we adopt an army policy? Don't ask Don't tell. It would be a shame for new puzzles not to be seen, just as for me it's a real shame to ruin a perfectly good non KO-puzzle.

I'll bow to Dave's judgment on this. He's sure to be on in a while and post about it.

In the mean time, can I remind you to be nice to each other. CrazyBadCuber asked to be deleted a while ago and has now come back. The requested deletion was sensible, and very mature if you ask me. Some of the posts I have edited this morning were not. Remember, if you don't like a post, flag it for the moderators to look at. Don't try to fix the problem yourself. It often leads to more problems.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Benf207 wrote:
I also think that certain puzzles are judged by the manufacturer such as Shengshou, etc. and that if they were to be produced by a more reputable company may have been viewed differently.


This really isn't the case. I have bought these puzzles and Dave has looked at the internal workings of them. The decisions were made not on where they come from (the factory/company) but rather on the puzzle itself.

The only true bias in this forum is my adoration of Uwe, and you all know that. But you'll also notice that I stay out of the conversations when negative comments are made. As a moderator, I have to do that. Dave and I have very carefully thought about and discussed the puzzles in question before declaring any a KO.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:25 am 
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Regarding the policy in general, I think it is important to remember that the mods have a very hard (and unpaid) job in policing this subject. They are not trying to spoil anyone's fun, they are just trying to keep things consistent and following a basic principle. 100% consistency however is near impossible because there are so many grey areas and potentially contradictory situations that can arise. All we can have is a general policy that covers most situations most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:00 am 
Tony Fisher wrote:
Regarding the policy in general, I think it is important to remember that the mods have a very hard (and unpaid) job in policing this subject. They are not trying to spoil anyone's fun, they are just trying to keep things consistent and following a basic principle. 100% consistency however is near impossible because there are so many grey areas and potentially contradictory situations that can arise. All we can have is a general policy that covers most situations most of the time.


Yeah, I understand that. There needs to be rules and the KO off policy is a rule for obvious reasons. Respect. I know that because I bring it up and admit that I mod KO's that there are people here that will look down on me just for that fact, but I also mod non KO puzzles. I use what does the best job at the time. I'm just making sure I'm not going to violate things =) That's all. I appreciate all of the responses (accept for the rude ones). Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Sorry to be silent so long on this topic, I have been traveling for work and just returned. I only have phone access at the moment but when I have a minute or two in front of an actual keyboard I will try to form a reasoned response.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:41 am 
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I think most replies have honed in on the right answer here: Not cool to name KO products, cool to show nice mods, not cool to sell KOs.

Let's break it down a bit, and allow for the fact that not everything is perfectly consistent in the past:

1.) Hopefully the "No KO manufacturer names" is common knowledge by now. But I call it out because it isn't mentioned in the early discussion of the KO policy, and came about later when we realized a web link wasn't the only form of disrespectful advertisement.

2.) Mods based on KO products with non-named manufacturers.
We like to see great work here, and sometimes that work happens on products we'd rather not glorify. This leads to a conflict of interest, and in keeping with the spirit of the KO policy we resolve it by applying our best judgement, not a fixed rule.
If a post concerns itself with the puzzle created (i.e. the mod itself) and not the puzzle source I think we're happy to see it.

3.) Selling puzzles built from KOs seems at odds with the KO policy. As many have noted, it could easily lead to situations where KOs can be sold on this forum with trivial changes (e.g. 8x8x8 with new stickers?). As absurd as our policy can get at times, I certainly don't want to get into the business of judging what is or is not a "substantial mod" for the purposes of laundering the KO taint from a puzzle.
As CrazyBadCuber points out, this is an aspect of our policy where we probably have little consistency looking back. I certainly have taken down many KO sales in Marketplace and sometimes those were mods. But I can't claim to have caught them all and some were probably reasonably obvious. It certainly isn't my intention that this forum be used to sell KO puzzles (mods or otherwise).

So hopefully this clears up what was otherwise a bit ambiguous. Please feel free to show your work and link to videos if it can be done in a manner that avoids focus on or advertisement of the KO puzzle. And if it is your (and by "your" I mean everyone, not CrazyBadCuber specifically) desire to sell these works please don't use this forum to do so.

Thanks for asking a good question to clarify this matter,

Dave :)

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:34 am 
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Thanks Dave.

And of course one could always ask the original designer (assuming they are accessible) if they are ok with anything that might be questionable, or come to some agreement, as I would think that if the original designer is happy then everyone is happy, right Dave?

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:38 am 
ok Thanks a lot Dave. That answered all of my concerns =)


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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:47 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
And of course one could always ask the original designer (assuming they are accessible) if they are ok with anything that might be questionable, or come to some agreement, as I would think that if the original designer is happy then everyone is happy, right Dave?
Certainly. Permitted meets the "respectful" bar quite well. Although I would caution those who might wish to ask original designers that I am fairly sure the answer is "No", and the question itself may not be the most polite. There may be some exceptions but I'll mention (as examples) Verdes and Okamoto as two who have made their feelings on such matters quite clear.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:13 am 
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CrazyBadCuber wrote:
ok Thanks a lot Dave. That answered all of my concerns =)
I'm glad that you say this, because I really believe that this forum is a good place for all twisty puzzle friends, meaning this is a good place for you. You have shown in your high quality videos that you really love twistypuzzles.
Welcome back! :)

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 Post subject: Re: question about the knock off policy
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Oops, didn't mean to open a can of worms there. I just kind of assumed that if it's a KO, selling a mod from it would still be a KO, I guess it wasn't too obvious.

-d


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