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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:23 pm 
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drswirly wrote:
...Using that (or rather the more practical http://tartarus.org/gareth/stuff/cubes/234blocking2.html), I think that I have a perfectly enjoyable puzzle.

Hi drswirly,
I believe I came across an error on this page. In Part 3, Case 2, you have the following table:


Code:
We make these UF + DB, but we don't want to move the bad ends we placed at LF + LB. Apply one of the following:

Good edges   Move
UF + UB   nothing
UB + DB   U2
UF + DB   (L2 B2)3

We now have bad ends at LF + LB and good edges at UF + DB.

The first line in that table doesn't seem to make sense as doing "nothing" would not result in the good edges being at UF + DB. A B2 move would accomplish that, but the question is whether the bad ends will still be where they should.

Edit: This should fix it:
Code:
Good edges   Move
UF + UB     (L2 B2)3
UB + DB     U2
UF + DB     nothing

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:58 am 
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roger wrote:
I believe I came across an error on this page. In Part 3, Case 2, you have the following table:

Thanks! Fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:47 am 
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Location: In my study drooling over my puzzle hoard - Precioussssss!
Well I have just had one of the most awful experiences of my puzzling life!!! :shock: :shock:

I had locked up my 2x3x4 again and really couldn't follow DrSwirly's instructions at all (because I'm thick!) so I dismantled the puzzle to see how it worked! :shock:

After a fair amount of pulling, it sort of exploded on me! this meant I couldn't see what was causing the blocking. I gradually reassembled it and really really struggled to physically get it together - mainly because the pieces are so small but also dealing with the small piece which attaches to the core is a real pain in the A!!!
I got it 3/4 finished and then quickly tested it - only to find I had put it together with BOTH ends blocked!!! :oops:

At least I now understood the blocking mechanism and started at the beginning! After about 2 hours I have reached the point where I have 4 more external pieces to place and 1 large internal piece and I cannot get it together! Even after I get the required pieces to make a properly functioning puzzle I may never play with it again because it won't reassemble!!

Aaaaargh!!!! Sorry!! :oops: :oops: :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:59 am 
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Hi Kevin!

You are right, it's a very difficult task assembling it! I've had mine completely disassembled because I wanted to explore the fused mechanism, it's very interesting how they all lock together, ingenious, but very difficult to reassemble. It's not so hard to half disassemble it for inserting the split edges, but once you get it past half way it gets considerably tougher :wink: . Persevere, you will get it :) . You love assembly puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:18 am 
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Hi Kevin, maybe this video made by sear70 (the link is in his post on page 3 of this thread) can help you?
I disassembled a small part of my puzzle only to understand the unsplit edges problem.
After this I had no real problems to unlock it, just needed very good light and my glasses for finding the split edges when peering inside.

BTW, I read the post of mf8 (Aug 20th) again. They show a picture showing the puzzle after a 90° turn of a 2x4 face and continue:
mf8 Aug 20 wrote:
If we turn the outer layer "2" face to this status, the "4" face can not be turned, this is acceptable to everybody.
What do they say here? I understand "this puzzle cannot shape-shift and this is acceptable to everybody." What else can this sentence mean?
A "2" face means obviously a 2x4 face and "4" face a 3x4 face.

Do they understand their own puzzle?
Do they understand what everybody accepts or not?
Do they understand what "fully functional 2x3x4" means?
Do they understand the difference between an announced, visible bandaging that adds an interesting challenge and a most unexpected, unwanted and invisible bandaging?
Do they listen to anybody here???

My PM to mf8 ist still in my Outbox.

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Last edited by Konrad on Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:31 am 
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Hi Konrad,

I read that to mean that [F=3x4, U=2x4] (U R2) is not possible, only (U Rr2). I think they mean that because R is not possible here that it isn't `fully functional`. I don't understand the logic of that though, I can only assume MF8 may be questioning our idea of `fully functional`.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:15 am 
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Hi Burgo, possibly your interpretation describes what mf8 wanted to say.
Burgo wrote:
Hi Konrad,

I read that to mean that [F=3x4, U=2x4] (U R2) is not possible, only (U Rr2). I think they mean that because R is not possible here that it isn't `fully functional`. I don't understand the logic of that though, I can only assume MF8 may be questioning our idea of `fully functional`.
In this case everybody will accept that U R2 is not possible on an ordinary physical puzzle. This is not the object of our discussion, though.
If mf8 accepts that U F2 and U (Rr)2 are legal turns in the setup you described, we are in agreement regarding the definition.The Museum explains
Quote:
When the mass-produced version became available, there was a discussion about the definition of a "fully functional 2x3x4". The original designer Tony Fisher defines the term by reference to his design: The puzzle allows legal 90 degree turns of the 2x4 faces. After such a turn one half of the puzzle can be turned around two axes which go through the centre of the puzzle.
If they wanted to give us a "fully functional 2x3x4 with bandaged mechanism" in the first place, what does the post from Aug 20th explain?

If a company has an easy fix to turn a product with unexpected, unwanted features into a product that everybody wants and likes, a reasonable business plan would be: fix it and sell it. :wink:

We'll see if all our posts lead to anything. I have sent PM and email to Calvin.
Maybe, he can help to communicate what everybody wants:
Change three of the unsplit edges to split edges!

If they offer it as a version 2, they'll see what people will really order.

EDIT: I just got the information via PM that mf8 currently cannot read posts. They are travelling.
Patience said the informant :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:17 am 
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I got this information from Calvin and he gave me the permission to share it:
Calvin wrote:
Having discussed with Mr. mf8, it seems that you all have different definition on the full function 2x3x4 cube.

Anyway, Mr. mf8 has agreed to make a small mold to produce the extra split edges, black body only. Then, we shall sell the extra split edges after finished his production.
The production probably takes 1 month if no delay.

Hope that this can solve all the problems.
Cheers. ^^

best regards,
calvinfan
When I asked what the definition of Mr. mf8 might be, I got this answer
Calvin wrote:
For the definition, Mr. mf8 insists his definition as what he said on tp. People with different culture and experiences may think in different ways.
To respect your thinkings and honor customers on tp, so he has promised to make the extra split edges as compromise.
Obviously Mr. mf8's definition on tp is this:
MF8 wrote:
Hi everyone, we want to talk something about our full function 2x3x4 cube's design concept.

In our opinion, a "full function" 2x3x4 must be designed totally a 2x3x4 cube. It means both the outside look and inside structure are 2x3x4 cube.

Like this picture:
Image
If we turn the outer layer "2" face to this status, the "4" face can not be turned, this is acceptable to everybody.
So, the same thing happen in the inner layer, like this picture:
Image
Though the outer layer looks like normal, but the inner layer "2" face did change, so the whole "4" face can not be turned.
This is our purpose when we designed.
If you use all the split-edges, the structure of the cube is not ever a 2x3x4, it is a 3x4x4.

So, we insist that our design is not a mistake, it is our purpose.

And no matter wholesaler or retailer, the full function 2x3x4 they got from us are the same.

Thanks
I'm still struggling to understand the mf8 definition of a "fully functional 2x3x4".
I'm not sure what "different culture and experiences" explains in this context.

I assume that Mr. mf8 wanted to give us a shape-shifting, fully functional 2x3x4.
I assume further that he has given us a twisty puzzle that can be scrambled and solved by twisting.
As it turns out the puzzles 3x4 faces are locked in many cases, when we scrambled it with shape-shifting turns and are back in cuboid shape.
Mr. mf8 says that this locking is on purpose.
Does this mean he defines the locking as a nice additional challenge?
Many - like me - had to disassemble the puzzle to fully understand the mechanism and why it blocks.
I can solve it now, but I will "repair" it as soon as possible.
Is it due to our different culture and experiences that we do not like this and people with different culture find it great?

Following the mf8 definition, what is the original Tony Fisher 2x3x4?
Obviously it functions differently, so mf8 will not call it "fully functional".
Does Mr. mf8 say that Tony has not made a 2x3x4 but a 4x4x3 that only looks like a 2x3x4?
Same for Garrett's and Traiphum's?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:07 pm 
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"Then, we shall sell the extra split edges after finished his production."

So that means that those who purchased what they thought was a normal puzzle.. so before the website adjust date and time.. will have to pay extra to actually GET a normal puzzle?


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Kattenvriendin wrote:
"Then, we shall sell the extra split edges after finished his production."

So that means that those who purchased what they thought was a normal puzzle.. so before the website adjust date and time.. will have to pay extra to actually GET a normal puzzle?

And those that did not purchase already will have to buy a bandaged puzzle and extra parts, and then do the modification themselves. No thanks!

I would like to buy a 2x3x4 that works. I won't buy bits and pieces that must be disassembled and reassembled. Oh well, I guess my next puzzle will not be a 2x3x4 after all.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Kattenvriendin wrote:
...So that means that those who purchased what they thought was a normal puzzle.. so before the website adjust date and time.. will have to pay extra to actually GET a normal puzzle?
That's how it reads. You see what different culture and experiences do to us :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:05 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:29 pm 
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WoW :shock: , After all this and all they are going to do is sell the peices so that we can make one that work's like what we all thought it should have in the first place. But I guess that is going to be better then nothing. I wander what price they are going to sell them for.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:49 am 
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Konrad wrote:
Kattenvriendin wrote:
...So that means that those who purchased what they thought was a normal puzzle.. so before the website adjust date and time.. will have to pay extra to actually GET a normal puzzle?
That's how it reads. You see what different culture and experiences do to us :wink:

Then how does the other culture see it? Do they consider that normal? Not being sarastic or anything, just.. wanting to know :)


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:39 am 
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Kattenvriendin wrote:
...Then how does the other culture see it? Do they consider that normal? Not being sarcastic or anything, just.. wanting to know :)
It is the same for me: I would really appreciate if Mr. mf8 could tell us which of his customers like the "original" puzzle and why.
I would like to understand, too, why Mr. mf8 defines his the "real" fully functional 2x3x4 while others (Tony's original, Garrett's, Traiphum's) are not. I'm not sarcastic, I'm really curious.

OK, today my last order from Calvin (hknowstore) arrived together with a free mf8 2x3x4 (this was Calvin's generous offer).
I repaired this second. It has a different colour scheme and I used it, because the mf8 logo is still intact while on the first one it became nearly invisible.

I decided to do it in a step by step approach avoiding a full disassembly. I harvested split (good edges) from my first puzzle, turned the unsplit (bad) edges via move sequences to positions where they block a 2x3 face and exchanged them.
You may want to have a look at sear70's video.
Disassembling the puzzle is easy enough: Just unscrew one screw below a 2x3 face a bit, get out the centres in the loosened half and the rest is simple.
I put in the two parts of a split edge at once. Just make sure that it is oriented correctly (the smaller part has to be adjacent to the centre under a 2x4 face).
I did this with two edges on one end first, reassembled the puzzle partially and turned the third unsplit edge to the loose half and finished it. It took a while but it is not really difficult.

I have now (as sear70 pointed out) one good puzzle and a strangely shaped 2x2x3 (2x2x3 extended version).

I want to thank Calvin again.
On the other hand, I find it unfair against him that he helps his customers while Mr. mf8 has the fix standpoint that the puzzle is as it should be.
I'll look for a way to compensate Calvin. Maybe, I can order the repair kit with split edges and pay for a full 2x3x4.
As a man of principles, I'll never again buy a mf8 puzzles, if I do not get an understandable explanation, why different culture and experiences have lead to an most unexpected puzzle.

The good news are:
After the repair action, the mf8 puzzle turns better than the other two I had got before.
And the price of two mf8 puzzles is still less than half of what I had paid for the less expensive one (Garrett's).

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Somebody asked me via PM
Quote:
Konrad wrote:
As a man of principles, I'll never again buy a mf8 puzzles, if I do not get an understandable explanation, why different culture and experiences have lead to an most unexpected puzzle.
Greetings, Konrad! :D

Why are we so insistent that mf8 does the right thing, but so many people let mefferts get away with selling us a bad product in the Gear Pyraminx? Do you continue to buy mefferts puzzles? I do not see a difference between mf8 and mefferts. Do you?

I'm beginning to wonder now, which puzzle makers can we trust?
I asked him/her for permission to quote her/him.
My answer is this:
I can talk about personal experiences only. Obviously, I was lucky and have not made any bad experiences with Mefferts or Mefferts products. Even my Gear Pyraminx turns OK. It is certainly not the greatest of my puzzles, but it is acceptable. The Mosaic Cube was another example that got a lot criticism. I have got three of them and all three are pretty good. I changed one using the ball core made available by Oskar at Shapeways (following an idea from Burgo).
This one turns really great. Not many got the ball core, so I concluded that most found the puzzle acceptable after some breaking in.
Sometimes I found the criticism of Mefferts a bit unfair and raised my voice. Certainly, some had reasons to complain and as long this is done in a reasonable language, I have no problem.

This case is quite different: I have not complained about the mf8 2x3x4 as such. I have even said in an earlier post that the problem might be a matter of definition. When Tony answered that he as the original designer in 2003 has defined the term "fully functional 2x3x4", I was completely convinced that this is correct.

I think, we are all still waiting for a definition by Mr. mf8 how he defines "fully functional 2x3x4" which we can understand.
At least I do not understand the mf8 definition. The implementation of an internal mechanism defines full functionality? He had the choice to make it as everybody here expected it but has chosen differently? (Why?)
That's what I read.
Has anybody else got a better understaning?

I do not ask that anybody admits an error or a failure, but I really expect a better explanation than saying that it is all a misunderstanding due to a different culture and experiences. Even if I would not accept such explanation, I would try to understand it.

Others have commented that offering an extra kit to change the puzzle afterwards seems not really customer friendly. This is not my point, though. I have a very good puzzle after my repair action today and I have not paid for it (thanks to Calvin).
My point is that we have heared that the puzzle is on purpose as it is.
And we do not understand this.

If it is a language problem, maybe somebody can help?

EDIT: I want to add this essential difference. It is my strong belief that Uwe Meffert has always tried to do his best. Sometimes some people were not content with the result.
In the case of the mf8 2x3x4, Mr. mf8 had all chances to make a wonderful puzzle, but he insists to make one that nobody (here) has expected. And the only explanation we hear is: "different culture and experiences".


EDIT2: I have scrambled and solved the unbandaged 2x3x4 several times. It is perfect. No problems at all.

I had a strange problem with the otherone, though (the extended 2x2x3). When I scrambled and solved it, it got locked. I disassembled it completely. BTW, this was one of my hardest disassembly / assembly experiences.
I found this little unglued gadget causing the bandaging of one outer edge rattling in the core.
It took me a long time to figure out where this piece (most likely) goes to.
Image
With `little gadget` I mean the little piece at the left.
I think it has to go to inner hole of the last remaining (when I have changed the other three unsplit to split eges) unsplit internal edge as my arrow indicates.

Can anybody confirm my assumption?

I have repaired it this way, scrambled it again and had a similar problem.
If I would be sure that I have put the bandaging gadget correctly, I would glue it on.

EDIT3: sear70 has confirmed that my assumption was correct. I'll glue the piece on.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Somebody asked me via PM
Quote:
Konrad wrote:
As a man of principles, I'll never again buy a mf8 puzzles, if I do not get an understandable explanation, why different culture and experiences have lead to an most unexpected puzzle.
Greetings, Konrad! :D

Why are we so insistent that mf8 does the right thing, but so many people let mefferts get away with selling us a bad product in the Gear Pyraminx? Do you continue to buy mefferts puzzles? I do not see a difference between mf8 and mefferts. Do you?

I'm beginning to wonder now, which puzzle makers can we trust?
I asked him/her for permission to quote her/him.
My answer is this:
I can talk about personal experiences only. Obviously, I was lucky and have not made any bad experiences with Mefferts or Mefferts products. Even my Gear Pyraminx turns OK. It is certainly not the greatest of my puzzles, but it is acceptable. The Mosaic Cube was another example that got a lot criticism. I have got three of them and all three are pretty good. I changed one using the ball core made available by Oskar at Shapeways (following an idea from Burgo).
This one turns really great. Not many got the ball core, so I concluded that most found the puzzle acceptable after some breaking in.
Sometimes I found the criticism of Mefferts a bit unfair and raised my voice. Certainly, some had reasons to complain and as long this is done in a reasonable language, I have no problem.

This case is quite different: I have not complained about the mf8 2x3x4 as such. I have even said in an earlier post that the problem might be a matter of definition. When Tony answered that he as the original designer in 2003 has defined the term "fully functional 2x3x4", I was completely convinced that this is correct.

I think, we are all still waiting for a definition by Mr. mf8 how he defines "fully functional 2x3x4" which we can understand.
At least I do not understand the mf8 definition. The implementation of an internal mechanism defines full functionality? He had the choice to make it as everybody here expected it but has chosen differently? (Why?)
That's what I read.
Has anybody else got a better understaning?

I do not ask that anybody admits an error or a failure, but I really expect a better explanation than saying that it is all a misunderstanding due to a different culture and experiences. Even if I would not accept such explanation, I would try to understand it.

Others have commented that offering an extra kit to change the puzzle afterwards seems not really customer friendly. This is not my point, though. I have a very good puzzle after my repair action today and I have not paid for it (thanks to Calvin).
My point is that we have heared that the puzzle is on purpose as it is.
And we do not understand this.

If it is a language problem, maybe somebody can help?

EDIT: I want to add this essential difference. It is my strong belief that Uwe Meffert has always tried to do his best. Sometimes some people were not content with the result.
In the case of the mf8 2x3x4, Mr. mf8 had all chances to make a wonderful puzzle, but he insists to make one that nobody (here) has expected. And the only explanation we hear is: "different culture and experiences".


EDIT2: I have scrambled and solved the unbandaged 2x3x4 several times. It is perfect. No problems at all.

I had a strange problem with the otherone, though (the extended 2x2x3). When I scrambled and solved it, it got locked. I disassembled it completely. BTW, this was one of my hardest disassembly / assembly experiences.
I found this little unglued gadget causing the bandaging of one outer edge rattling in the core.
It took me a long time to figure out where this piece (most likely) goes to.
Image
With `little gadget` I mean the little piece at the left.
I think it has to go to inner hole of the last remaining (when I have changed the other three unsplit to split eges) unsplit internal edge as my arrow indicates.

Can anybody confirm my assumption?

I have repaired it this way, scrambled it again and had a similar problem.
If I would be sure that I have put the bandaging gadget correctly, I would glue it on.

EDIT3: sear70 has confirmed that my assumption was correct. I'll glue the piece on.


For the one's that want to get a 2nd puzzle to make one 2x3x4.

To add to this on the other left over parts from the second 2x3x4 to make a 2x2x3 you need to make sure
that putting it together you have to start out like you did on the 2x3x4 with the hole edge in the picture of
Konrad's post and the small split edge that should allready be glued to one of the center's. those parts should be put together as if you are building the 2x3x4. Then the rest can be put in like normal. Both puzzles will have like a scratching feal to it when turning but will smooth out after it gets broke in. The 2x3x4 will have a little bit of catching at first but that will/should smooth out aswell.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:02 am 
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As far as the "do not understand" part..

When I buy a puzzle I expect it to work a certain way, seems the majority here expects the same.

In the beginning this puzzle was advertised to work in said way, the way we all expected, so basically we were all told and convinced upon buying that it would work that way.

Then this story changed when the first people started receiving their products, and we were left with a puzzle not living up to what we were told we would get and what we paid for.

Now it is said that in order to get it to work the way we expected we have to -pay- to get the extra pieces.

Whether it was intended or not to be bandaged, it was not advertised to be so, and people bought a product that was not what they thought and could rightfully assume it was.


To just bring a simple comparison in the mix:
If I buy a new car, I expect it to drive. If I have to start pushing it after every 500 miles I didn't get what I was promised and said car should be repaired without extra cost to me.

Had they -told- me upon purchase: ok you buy this car, but as a gimmick every 500 miles you have to push it for 100 yards to get it back to working order.. or to fix this and have it drive normally you have to pay an extra $2000, then I would not have bought said car.


No matter how high or low the price of those parts, this having to pay extra to get it fixed is the part that I don't get.


That is where my idea of cultural differences was when I wrote earlier on, and which is what I would like to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:59 am 
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Can you show me the picture of the pieces I need for made a 2x3x4 FF

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:50 am 
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juanan wrote:
Can you show me the picture of the pieces I need for made a 2x3x4 FF
You might want to watch sear70's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7g3TzRG ... e=youtu.be
I do not want to disassemble my 2x3x4FF to make closeup photos.
Calvin told me, when the "split edges set" becomes available - in a month or so - he will offer the set for $1.
As you can see in sear70's video, you need to replace three unsplit edges by three pairs of split edges.
If you are careful and find out first which external edge is connected with the core, you do not need a full disassembly and will never see the little piece I showed in my photo above.
Right now you have several choices
- do not buy the mf8 2x3x4 at all (you might regret this later)
- get one and live with the locking (most people will not enjoy this)
- get two 2x3x4 and swap three pairs of edges (again: have a look at sear70's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7g3TzRG ... e=youtu.be)
- wait for the kit and buy the cuboid plus kit

Regarding the turning quality: My FF version turns very well, the other one (with 7 unsplit edges, one split edges where the samller part is glued to an internal centre and the tiny gadget I showed above) is OK but less impressive.
Maybe, I'll order a kit later for this one. The little bit of shape shifting does not add much to an ordinary 2x2x3 (I have got a very nice one from Okamoto called Slim Tower.)

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:00 am 
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a lot of thanks, Konrad and sear70

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube - mass produced and release
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:40 pm 
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zamkam wrote:
MF8 wrote:
Maybe the cube looks the same, but the inner structure is different. We have talked to Garrett, whose structure is alike, and he is ok for us to mass produce.

That's bad news for me. I bought Garrett's 2x3x4 a while back and I was very disappointed with the quality because of two MAJOR problems:

1. The center core can get "off track" and lock the 2x4 faces (a problem acknowledged by Garrett himself).
2. The edge pieces in the 2x3 faces are so loosely coupled to the other pieces that they sometimes fall off the puzzle while turning. Notice I didn't say "pop", it's not another piece pushing and causing them to dislodge, they just fall. Very irritating.

I wonder if these two problems have been corrected in the mass-produced version. Garret once wrote about going back to the drawing board and fixing #1, but since that posting I never heard anything from him again (and his youtube channel has been closed, what happened?).

So......is this the same version or is it the "new and improved" 2x3x4?
I have the Garret's 2x3x4 puzzle from shapeways. Did you bandage yours properly? The version I got, I had to bandage two internal edges to one of the center pieces in order to prevent the core from misaligning. I never had any problems with the puzzle falling apart, although I had a time figuring out how to properly assemble and tighten the screws. It also took a while to break in the Shapeways puzzle so that it turned really well, something that shouldn't be an issue with the factory production puzzles. In fact, I just solved it again last night. The (N)x(N+1)x(N+2) are quite fun puzzles. There are also a couple of parity issues people need to be aware of that require shapeshifting to fix, so just getting it back into cuboid shape isn't necessarily enough to solve it with half turns.

Quick question: Does the new Mf8 2x3x4 do quarter turns on the 2x4 faces? Because if it doesn't shapeshift like the original Shapeways puzzle did, I don't want it. I also have the 3x4x5, and the 2x3x4 would make a nice addition if it allows shape-shifting. Are the cubies standard 3x3x3 size like the Mf8 3x4x5? I'd like to use Cubesmith tiles on it.

EDIT: Okay, I have read the rest of the topic defining the condition of the puzzle. The internal edges are all placed in the appropriate locations inside the puzzle for all layers to rotate, but as soon as you shape-shift the puzzle, the internal edges become misaligned by not allowing certain outer layers to rotate, even when the puzzle is in a proper cuboid orientation.

Sorry, but that is unacceptable. It's not that I mind bandaged puzzles, but it needs to be obvious simply by looking at the puzzle, what will turn and what won't. That's one of the reasons why I don't like some of these new bastardly complex puzzles to come out in recent years, like the circle series, that Okimoto Latch cube that only allows only single direction face turns, and others. That is just unintuitive and frustrating. I've finally gotten to where I can solve my Garret's 2x3x4 Shapeways puzzle intuitively, and I have come close to solving the mf8 3x4x5, which does not suffer the same bandaging issues as the production 2x3x4. I've only had minor issues with certain pieces occasionally coming dislodged with the 3x4x5, and if you rotate the faces slowly (I'm not a speedsolver), you shouldn't have issues with the puzzle exploding. I was looking forward to having a slick injection-molded 2x3x4, but now I think I'll just hold onto my Shapeways cuboid and not buy this turd.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube - mass produced and release
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:33 am 
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stardust4ever wrote:
...I was looking forward to having a slick injection-molded 2x3x4, but now I think I'll just hold onto my Shapeways cuboid and not buy this turd.
My personal view: I have got three 2x3x4, Garret's Shapeways version, Traiphum's semi FF and mf8's. After my repair action (I swapped three split edges from my first to a second 2x3x4), the mf8 version is truly fully functional and turns MUCH better than Garrett's.
I will not say anything against Garrett's. I had no real problems with it. Maybe, you have found better screw settings than I have?
Garrett himself had planned an improved version 2, but gave it up, when he heared that a mass-produced version was planned.
The truth is, though, that my mf8 version is really better (without any lubrication so far.)

As everybody else, I do not like how mf8 has handled the issue of locking / bandaging.
I can accept that in a different culture there are different views on business rules.
What I cannot understand, though, is the argumentation that in a different culture there are different definitions of a technical function. I still hope for an explanation by Mr. mf8.
The mechanism is very ingeniously indeed, just that they should have used split edges in seven of eight cases.
Everybody here would have got what he/she has hoped for.

On the other hand, if you accept the extra $1 for an edges kit and the extra burden of swapping internal pieces, you will have a nice puzzle at the end.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:12 am 
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I just get back from holidays and hopefully, I have read this thread before scrambling my 2x3x4.
I will wait for the kit and take some time to repair my puzzle, becayse I do not want any hidden bandaged mecanism.
I totally agree with what I have been told before and thanks all the guys involved in this topic.
Nice work


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:42 am 
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Just wanted to update people on my experience with the 2x3x4. Once the 2nd one came through, I was able to replace the 3 full edges with 3 split edges. If I can do this at all, everyone else will be able to do this very easily.

Since then I've been playing with it semi-constantly. It's such a major joy to now have this puzzle, which turns properly and as I expected it to all along. The more I play with it, the better it turns. I haven't lubed it at all and it's perfectly fine.

I've been trying to solve it using a reduction method and am now at the point where it's quick to solve every time. The shapeshifting is great and it was a nice challenge looking at the different possibilities for reducing the pieces once it was returned to cuboid shape. It's been good getting to the point of solving it using only a 1,1 and a 3,1 commutator, and some healthy thought processes along the way.

I reckon when others' puzzles are all working, they'll be really happy with them.

And now I'm wondering when the 5x6x7 will be arriving. :)

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:46 am 
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rline wrote:
...It's been good getting to the point of solving it using only a 1,1 and a 3,1 commutator, and some healthy thought processes along the way.

I reckon when others' puzzles are all working, they'll be really happy with them.
....
Hi rline,
it is good to hear that you are happy with the puzzle after swapping the internal edges.
Isn't it amazing how a very nice puzzle was almost ruined because the inventor insists on some (to me not understandable) principles?
I'm still waiting for an explanation why a different culture has lead to the current banadaged version.

I would understand if somebody tinks that a FF 2x3x4 is so easy to solve that some additional challenge should be added. But this kind of bandaging an internal mechanism???

Would you be ready to share your 3,1 commutator and "some healthy thought processes along the way" over in the solution thread?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Hi Konrad

Quote:
Isn't it amazing how a very nice puzzle was almost ruined because the inventor insists on some (to me not understandable) principles?

The whole thing is quite bizarre. I don't think we'll ever hear any decent explanation of the cultural principles. I just think they made a mistake. Given how much fun it's been since it's working, I really can't believe they tried to tell us it needed the bandaged mechanism as a challenge. It's challenge enough.

Quote:
Would you be ready to share your 3,1 commutator and "some healthy thought processes along the way" over in the solution thread?

Sure. I'll make sure to do that soon. :)

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Hi guys,

Sorry to bother you with something trivial! I have got my second 2x3x4 for spare parts and have taken it apart but for the life of me I cannot workout which pieces go where inside!! :oops: :oops:

I have:
a bare core
1 large floating piece with tiny part to attach it to the core
Several small floating pieces with matching sliver piece
1 more small floating piece to match the attached sliver.

I cannot tell the organisation of the different parts with respect to each other and with respect to the different size sides! I have put it together in 2 ways and each time ended up with a cube which doesn't rotate on one side!

Any help would be hugely appreciated!

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Hi Kevin,

have you looked at sear70's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7g3TzRG ... e=youtu.be ?

This should cover most issues.
The little bandaging gadget can be seen in the photo of my post on August 30th.

The only one remaining unsplit edge connected (or even glued) to this little bandaging piece goes next to the edge where the smaller part is glued onto a centre.

When I swapped the edges, I avoided a complete disassembly and just replaced the three unsplit edges (without the bandaging gadget) by three split edges.

Good luck!

Konrad

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:36 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Hi Kevin,

have you looked at sear70's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7g3TzRG ... e=youtu.be ?

Thanks very much Konrad!

I had completely forgotten about this video!
He actually approached it differently to me - when I used his technique then all was well!

I now have a true fully functionl 2x3x4 all scrambled, not locked and ready to attempt to solve! :shock:

Thanks also to Calvin for some truly great service! :D

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:27 pm 
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I wrote a PM to mf8 on August 24th and asked if they will ever make a version with split edges.
I got an answer and asked for permission to share it. Here it is:
mf8 wrote:
Hi

Sorry for the long time reply.

We are going to release a split edges set, but not a 2x3x4 with all internal edges split.

Thanks

Mf8
I hoped for an explanation about the "cultural difference" that caused their decision. I think we have to forget about such an explanation :(

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:53 am 
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Yes, this is sad - Sad also that we have to do the job to make your puzzle fully fonctionnal and sad that we have to ask to have another puzzle to make the modification.
But Calvin has done his job great and give me another free puzzle very quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:57 pm 
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We have the black split edges (x3) from the factory now.
Anyone need them, feel free to contact me at calvinfan@hknowstore.com .
Attachment:
234_split_edges.JPG
234_split_edges.JPG [ 41.54 KiB | Viewed 8292 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:40 am 
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I just noticed this in your store Calvin. I'm very much looking forward to getting 2x3x4 now - I'll be placing the order soon. :D

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:16 pm 
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If anyone wants buy two black disassembled 2x3x4 from me please pm me. I have tried to put them back together and can't.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:39 pm 
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try it again

it´s easy. I didi it .

See the the youtube videos of sear70

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:14 pm 
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Even I managed it!!! :lol:

It really isn't that tough if you watch the video!

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:44 pm 
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I must be the worst! Took me almost an hour to crack! I tried an I just can't. My carpool tunnel kicked my rear....if you catch my drift. :?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:34 pm 
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MizMelysaLadi wrote:
I must be the worst! Took me almost an hour to crack! I tried an I just can't. My carpool tunnel kicked my rear....if you catch my drift. :?
Hang on to them. With the PAW swinging by the east coast soon you may have a great opportunity to meet with some people happy to assemble them for you.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:19 pm 
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DLitwin wrote:
MizMelysaLadi wrote:
I must be the worst! Took me almost an hour to crack! I tried an I just can't. My carpool tunnel kicked my rear....if you catch my drift. :?
Hang on to them. With the PAW swinging by the east coast soon you may have a great opportunity to meet with some people happy to assemble them for you.

Dave


That's so nice. But thanks to everyone for telling me to try again. I watched the video again (and again and again) and I finally understood how to put it together. I took me 3 hours to do it. (My fingers go numb and I had to stop alot) But I did it! :D

Now the question is....what did everyone who bought the second 2x3x4, do with the second cube? I can't put the second one together because I lost a piece and had to break off the glued piece on the second cube's center.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:51 am 
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MizMelysaLadi wrote:
Now the question is....what did everyone who bought the second 2x3x4, do with the second cube? I can't put the second one together because I lost a piece and had to break off the glued piece on the second cube's center.


I have put the second one on my desk at work, for decoration purpose.
I thought initially keep pieces for modding, but I was too lazy. Second thought was the bin...


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:02 am 
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MizMelysaLadi wrote:
...Now the question is....what did everyone who bought the second 2x3x4, do with the second cube? I can't put the second one together because I lost a piece and had to break off the glued piece on the second cube's center.
I have made a shapeshifting 2x2x3.
Because you lost a piece, it may be an idea to get a repair set from hknowstore (for $1) and make a second fully functional 2x3x4?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:24 am 
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Konrad wrote:
I have made a shapeshifting 2x2x3.
Because you lost a piece, it may be an idea to get a repair set from hknowstore (for $1) and make a second fully functional 2x3x4?


I think shapeshifting 2x2x3 cube is not very interesting, but make a second 2x3x4 with a repair kit at 1$ is a very good idea. I would add that MizMelysaLadi could sell it just after to someone that do not want to spend 2 hours understanding and reparing the bandaged mecanism, who just only want to buy a fully functionnal 2x3x4 !


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:16 am 
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I still have alot of cubies left over from making my ff 3x3x5. So if anyone needs some for modding let me know.

If and when I do something with them I'll post.

Thanks :D

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:25 pm 
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alacoume wrote:
Konrad wrote:
I have made a shapeshifting 2x2x3.
Because you lost a piece, it may be an idea to get a repair set from hknowstore (for $1) and make a second fully functional 2x3x4?


I think shapeshifting 2x2x3 cube is not very interesting, but make a second 2x3x4 with a repair kit at 1$ is a very good idea. I would add that MizMelysaLadi could sell it just after to someone that do not want to spend 2 hours understanding and reparing the bandaged mecanism, who just only want to buy a fully functionnal 2x3x4 !


I can't sell it to myself... :lol:
I would never attempt to do that again. And no it didn't take me 2 hours trying to put it back together....took me almost 3 :roll: .

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:16 pm 
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If anybody wants to buy a fully functional 2x3x4 with the modification I would be willing to do so. PM me if you are interested.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:22 pm 
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AtomicCubeLube wrote:
If anybody wants to buy a fully functional 2x3x4 with the modification I would be willing to do so. PM me if you are interested.

The modification? What modification are you talking about?

-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:42 am 
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Doug Roth wrote:
AtomicCubeLube wrote:
If anybody wants to buy a fully functional 2x3x4 with the modification I would be willing to do so. PM me if you are interested.

The modification? What modification are you talking about?

-Doug
This can only be the change of three internal edges from unsplit to split. Kit available at $1. (This is discussed probably in 2/3 of the posts in this thread. :wink: )

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:51 am 
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Konrad wrote:
MizMelysaLadi wrote:
...Now the question is....what did everyone who bought the second 2x3x4, do with the second cube? I can't put the second one together because I lost a piece and had to break off the glued piece on the second cube's center.
I have made a shapeshifting 2x2x3.
Because you lost a piece, it may be an idea to get a repair set from hknowstore (for $1) and make a second fully functional 2x3x4?


I had ordered stuff from abroad a couple of times, and I found customs in Germany always a bit annoying. If one JUST orders the repair set from hknowstore, it will probably be in a small padded envelope - will that just "pass through"?

Roberto

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:57 am 
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Konrad wrote:
MizMelysaLadi wrote:
...Now the question is....what did everyone who bought the second 2x3x4, do with the second cube? I can't put the second one together because I lost a piece and had to break off the glued piece on the second cube's center.
I have made a shapeshifting 2x2x3.


I am curious. I have a 2x3x4 "with internal bandaging" and it was a PITA to solve and, NO, I do not want to do that anymore. I am undecided as to whether purchase a second 2x3x4 in the US (I can order it now and I will find it on my desk in San Diego monday...) to exchange the pieces... and then remain with a useless puzzle?

What did you do? Just glued the pieces so hat you have a weird 2x2x3 with element with proportions 1x1x2?

I was also toying with the idea of removing the first and fourth layer and so obtain a real 2x2x3... would it this possible? Some cutting, some gluing, fill with some epoxy... then stickers on top?

Roberto

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