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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:14 am 
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Luke wrote:
You bought a 2x3x4. You received a 2x3x4. You received it safely (Calvin's responsibility). It wasn't to your standard (MF8's responsibility). Go moan at them, not Calvin.


WRONG. When I bought my 2x3x4 it was advertised as "Full function 2x3x4". A few days ago (and obviously because of this thread) the description was changed to "Full function 2x3x4...with bandaged mechanism". The way the merchandise is advertised is 100% under Calvin's control, and by changing the description he's admitting the previous one was misleading. It's great that he is warning FUTURE buyers about the issue, but what about us, the ones who bought it without knowing about it? We obviously didn't get what was advertised. Just saying that the "bandaged mechanism" was part of the puzzle sounds like a very sneaky way to get out of this mess. Maybe that explanation is fine with you, but I don't buy it.

As for your brilliant advice ("Go moan at them"), I wonder if that is what you do when you get something from Amazon which is different from what they advertised at the time of the sale.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:11 pm 
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I agree with you that it does sound a bit sneaky, but I do not believe this is Calvin's fault. Calvin, as Pete has already stated, is merely relaying the message from MF8 to us. So to call him stupid or saying that he thinks we're all stupid is unfair.

Ultimately, this is down to MF8. They should have provided a correct and accurate description of the puzzle. And whilst it is fine to be annoyed that the puzzle is not fully functional (depending on your definition), Calvin isn't the one who should be ridiculed. Sure, tell Calvin that you are not happy so that he can inform MF8, but don't take the whole problem out on him.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:32 pm 
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I have just discussed this with Luke and GB in IRC a little, and I think MF8 made a mistake, and now they are trying to cover it.
They probably shoved it into mass production without really testing it, and now are saying that they meant for 2 versions.
It's the typical child scenario- a kid does something stupid, and says, "Oh, I meant to do that."
I (after Luke suggested it) think that once the FF 2x3x4's are released, Clavin should send them to everyone who bought it from his store at the expense of MF8. The only issue with this is MF8's cooperation. However, their reputation and future would depend on this.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:40 pm 
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I also agree that it is not Calvin's fault, it is MF8's. This is a design defect that they are now trying to say is a "feature". I would be happy if they made the replacement parts available and even send them to use who ordered before this issue became known.

Same with the Petaminx. It also has a design defect causing broken center pieces. MF8 should send out redesigned center pieces to those of us who bought the early/defective ones.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:50 pm 
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I agree MF8 screwed up but they're now in a tough situation now. It takes time and money to design a fix / unbandaged part and get production going. I don't think they can commit to this without exploring options first. A fix won't move at the pace we want it to but I think we need to exercise some patience here.

Of course, it would be nice to see a more honest "yeah we screwed up, sorry, we're looking into it" response from them. Part of the issue may be a language / cultural difference.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:24 pm 
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Thanks for the kindly patience of all of you.

I think that there is a cultural difference and mis-understanding.
Mr. mf8 had the 3D shapeways prototypes for testing before mass production. He knew the bandage features and intentionally put it inside to increase the difficulties. Somehow, he left it not stated and thinking that we shall find it out and solve it.

Anyway, having discussed with Mr. mf8 on the matter again. Yes, we had a mistake as missed to state the bandaged mechansim. Whoever bought the 2x3x4 cube and need the split-edges, please contact me at calvinfan@hknowstore.com. I shall follow. Thanks. ^^

PS: The mf8 2x3x4 Cubes have been selling worldwide. We are only capable to serve those honor customers buying from us. Sorry can't help for those who bought the cubes from others.

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Last edited by calvinfan on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:10 am 
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How could we ever doubt Calvin?

He always provides the very best customer service! :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:15 am 
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Thank you Calvin!
I'm still waiting for the 2x3x4 from you, but I'll accept your offer to send exchange parts.

On the other hand, we should not exaggerate things.
Yes, we all bought a "mf8 Full Function 2x3x4" and nobody expected the locking / bandaged issue.
Have you ever tried to find out, how a "fully functional 2x3x4" is defined?
Yes, everybody has expectations, but even our own Museum does not clarify the question:
Museum wrote:
2x3x4
Another 2x3x4. Compared with the first (by Tony Fisher) this one can't change its shape.
â—¦Inventor: Traiphum Prungtaengkit
â—¦Mechanism: LxMxN (other)
â—¦Patents: Unknown
â—¦Producer: Custom
â—¦Year: 2010
â—¦Original Price: $0.00 USD
â—¦Current Price: No Data

Although this is not the first cuboids with dimensions 2x3x4 it is the first which does not allow for shape changing moves. The first 2x3x4s (by Tony Fisher) are 4x4x4s in disguise which explains their additional abilities. This new variant was made with a new handbuilt mechanism inspired by the Domino.
I do not know how many Traiphum has made. I have got one in 2010 and it does shape shift. You can argue if it is fully functional or not. I have called it "semi fully functional". It allows 90° degree turns and can reach all configurations of a truly fully functional 2x3x4.

And have a look at this:
Museum wrote:
2x3x4 (bandaged 4x4x4)
A bandaged 4x4x4 variation that functions exactly like the Wall Cube, but is solved in a slightly different configuration.
â—¦Inventor: Unknown
â—¦Mechanism: 4x4x4
â—¦Patents: Unknown
â—¦Producer: Cubetwist
â—¦Year: Unknown
â—¦Original Price: $18.00 USD
â—¦Current Price: No Data

It turns out there is additional unanticipated layer of complexity in the solution. A true cuboid 2x3x4 would allow only 180°-twists for every layer and dimension. In contrast this bandaged 4x4x4 sometimes allows 90°-twists.
Is a "true cuboid 2x3x4" a fully functional 2x3x4? I mean, compared with an extended 2x3x4, you can argue that even a 2x3x4 allowing 180° degree turns of all visible layers only is a "true cuboid" equal to a "fully functional cuboid".
So, it all comes down to a matter of definition. Certainly, everybody here expected something similar to Garrett's 2x3x4 version 1 (fully functional as much as you can ask for, but some here had certain complaints about it). mf8 has even made a reference to Garrett's puzzle.

I completely understand, that people got disappointed, but we should all calm down and at least Calvin's customers can expect a "hardware" solution :)

EDIT:
@bmenrigh
bmenrigh wrote:
...It takes time and money to design a fix / unbandaged part and get production going. ...
I guess in this case the exchange parts do already exist as sear70 has shown us by buying two of them!

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:36 am 
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I have contacted Calivin and he has made a very generous offer regarding making the 2x3x4 fully functional, so I am happy. Thanks Calvin, very good customer service.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:39 am 
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Konrad wrote:
So, it all comes down to a matter of definition.
I hope that we can have the definition of `fully functional` to mean fully functional and not to be muddied. I think if there is some known bandaging or blocking aspect that it would be nice to be mentioned? I just wouldn't like to see surprises like this become accepted as normal.
Garrett wrote:
Can someone take theirs apart and photograph the mechanism?
I had the mech completely stripped down last night. 4 pieces are locked together: a whole internal edge, a 2x4 outer edge, the small half of a split internal edge, and an internal centre- preventing internal misalignment. Sorry I couldn't photograph it successfully.

It's quite an ingenious mechanism (especially the fusing of the 4 parts I described ^^- preventing internal misalignment) and it clearly offers the opportunity to have the full functionality we desire with the addition of 3 more split edges.

I added a little bit of lube and it is a truly amazingly smooth puzzle now. I really hope that MF8 will release a fully functional version and that this little episode doesn't prevent people from buying them. Because truly, they would be missing out on a wonderful little puzzle.

Thanks Calvin: for supporting us, being our voice and acting on our behalf :D .

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:32 am 
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Konrad wrote:

Have you ever tried to find out, how a "fully functional 2x3x4" is defined?
Yes, everybody has expectations, but even our own Museum does not clarify the question

I am biased of course but believe in most cases the first person to make a puzzle pretty much sets the ground rules for it. I made the world's first in April 2003- http://tonyfisherpuzzles.net/049b%202x3 ... 20%29.html

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:06 am 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
I made the world's first in April 2003
Now there's a `real` 2x3x4! What a beauty.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:50 am 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Konrad wrote:

Have you ever tried to find out, how a "fully functional 2x3x4" is defined?
Yes, everybody has expectations, but even our own Museum does not clarify the question

I am biased of course but believe in most cases the first person to make a puzzle pretty much sets the ground rules for it. I made the world's first in April 2003- http://tonyfisherpuzzles.net/049b%202x3 ... 20%29.html
Wow, this is brilliant.
I would like to use some smileys, but I know that you do not like them!
You are right, this defines it exactly as I would expect. I should have looked at Youtube instead at our Museum.
Maybe, Andreas can update the Museum entries. Yours is described as
Quote:
2x3x4 (shape-changing)
Yet another Tony Fisher masterpiece. The first fully functional irregular cuboid ever.
â—¦Inventor: Tony Fisher
â—¦Mechanism: 4x4x4
â—¦Patents: Unknown
â—¦Producer: hknowstore
â—¦Year: 2003
â—¦Original Price: $19.99 USD
â—¦Current Price: $465.77 USD
I doubt the original price of $19.99 as well.

Anyway, if we look at the right source, the term "fully functional 2x3x4" is precisely defined as everybody had expected it.
Personally I like tricky puzzles (as the Crazy 3x3x3's), but as everybody else I do not see an invisible bandaging as a nice additional challenge.

Today, I received my mf8 2x3x4. I scrambled and solved it by 180° turns six or seven times and it did not lock.
Does it mean that locking ocurs by shape shifting turns only?
How would a non-shapeshifting 2x3x4 be called?
The Museum calls it a "true cuboid 2x3x4"
Quote:
A true cuboid 2x3x4 would allow only 180°-twists for every layer and dimension.
The mf8 puzzle turns really well without any lubrication.
Actually I have to admit that it turns better than both, Garrett's and Traiphum's.

Calvin has made a very generous offer (probably the same as to Gus) and I'm perfectly happy with his customer service.

I'm leaving for a family event and will have a look at the locking issue next week.

EDIT: I had a first look at drswirly's description http://tartarus.org/gareth/stuff/cubes/234blocking.html
My puzzle does not behave as he describes it in his test finding the "rooted piece".

EDIT2: When I tried to find the rooted piece in the first place, I had scrambled the puzzle by 180° turns. Looking for it in the solved state, I could find it. Using the solution table, I was able to lock one end immediately. I was not able to unlock it again. Maybe, my problem is to distinguish "good edges" and "bad edges".
@drswirly: You have put in an amazing lot of work and a lot of good photos.
Thank you for this.
Still, I'm not yet able to unlock the puzzle.
I guess, I shall disassemble it next Monday to understand the mechanism. Maybe, I'll then be able to distinguish good and bad edges.

EDIT3: I cannot imagine that this kind of locking is a planned "bandaged" feature. On the other hand, the problem is so obvious that it is hard to believe that it was not found during a prototype testing.

EDIT4: OK, I could afford some time to disassemble it. Now I understand what drswirly means by "good" and "bad" edges. I could unlock it. Thanks to drswirly and Burgo!!!

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Last edited by Konrad on Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:00 pm 
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I made a video of how to make it full functional for those who wants to do this.



I had to reload the video, The first one did not work. Its uploading so it will be up soon.

EDIT: Sorry for the video problem that it was to long and was not able to be put up. I will try to make another one.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:11 am 
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Sorry I had some problem's with the first 2 downloads. This one is working.


[url]
http://youtu.be/U7g3TzRG0bA







[/url]


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Location: Sioux Lookout, Canada
I've been solving my MF8 2x3x4 WITHOUT shape-shifting and it works very well. The cubies and the stickers are identical to the MF8/TomZ 3x4x5. Setting aside the split edge issue - which is in the process of being resolved - I think the 2x3x4 puzzle is worthwhile for cuboid fans. It is a bit more challenging than the 3x3x2, but not nearly as daunting as the 3x4x5. In my opinion it is a good puzzle and it would be very sad if puzzlers miss out due to the unfortunate manufacturing Mulligan. I took Calvin up on his offer to email and he will fix me up. Meanwhile I have a second puzzle on the way, so I should be able to experience a shape-shifting solve very soon. Once I receive the replacement parts, I will have an extra cuboid to give away!

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:57 pm 
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OK...tell me what's wrong with this...

On August 17, 2012, 1:31 am, my cube was processed through USPS Sort Facility in KEARNY, NJ (A on the Map)

Then...

On August 17, 2012, 12:21 pm, my cube was processed through USPS Sort Facility in BETHPAGE, NY (B on the map)

Kicker....I live in Staten Island, NY....(highlighted on the map in yellow)

Did I miss something here?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:57 am 
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MizMelysaLadi wrote:
OK...tell me what's wrong with this...

On August 17, 2012, 1:31 am, my cube was processed through USPS Sort Facility in KEARNY, NJ (A on the Map)

Then...

On August 17, 2012, 12:21 pm, my cube was processed through USPS Sort Facility in BETHPAGE, NY (B on the map)

Kicker....I live in Staten Island, NY....(highlighted on the map in yellow)

Did I miss something here?

I can only assume that USPS Sort Facility in KEARNY is a large depot where all foreign inbound mail goes to and it is then transferred to different local sort facilities for actual delivery. It just happens that the big facility is closer than your local one. I could be wrong of cause.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:45 am 
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I don't know either....I think it's common sense to send it 30 minutes to it's destination, rather somewhere else that's an hour away.

But in good news!!! i finally got it!! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Peephole Cuboid
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:17 pm 
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So the next time that MF8 decides to make a "bandaged mechanism" cuboid, they should take lesson from WitEden and put little peepholes in the outer pieces creating - in effect - a "wormhole cuboid". If they used contrasting colours for the two types of internal pieces, the holes could be small. MF8 would have to call it something else, so I propose "Peephole Cuboid". That would be fun. Especially if the box said "MF8 Peephole Cuboid with Bandaged Mechanism" :mrgreen: .

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 Post subject: Re: Peephole Cuboid
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:47 am 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
Especially if the box said "MF8 Peephole Cuboid with Bandaged Mechanism" :mrgreen: .

Maybe it is just me... but for some reason I think this will massively increase sales. But not with the crowd we actually WANT :lol:

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 Post subject: About our Full Functon 2x3x4 Cube
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:17 am 
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Hi everyone, we want to talk something about our full function 2x3x4 cube's design concept.

In our opinion, a "full function" 2x3x4 must be designed totally a 2x3x4 cube. It means both the outside look and inside structure are 2x3x4 cube.

Like this picture:
Attachment:
001.jpg
001.jpg [ 51.57 KiB | Viewed 7747 times ]

If we turn the outer layer "2" face to this status, the "4" face can not be turned, this is acceptable to everybody.
So, the same thing happen in the inner layer, like this picutre:
Attachment:
002.jpg
002.jpg [ 91.55 KiB | Viewed 7747 times ]

Though the outer layer looks like normal, but the inner layer "2" face did chnage, so the whole "4" face can not be turned.
This is our purpose when we designed.
If you use all the split-edges, the structure of the cube is not ever a 2x3x4, it is a 3x4x4.

So, we insist that our design is not a mistake, it is our purpose.

And no matter wholesaler or retailer, the full function 2x3x4 they got from us are the same.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:16 am 
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As people cannot see the internal bandaging, it cannot be solved, unless a God's algorithm for the edges is found, in which case it still isn't a puzzle; more of a dexterity challenge.

Would you ever consider producing the unbandaged version? And I wouldn't mind if you mass produced the 4x4x3 along with it. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:28 am 
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Luke wrote:
And I wouldn't mind if you mass produced the 4x4x3 along with it. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:37 am 
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Luke wrote:
As people cannot see the internal bandaging, it cannot be solved

Well, not exactly. Here is my question. After recieving the puzzle and finding the same issues, I have actually managed to solve it 3 times, despite lock ups and without peering into the mechanism. This first time was with intuition, but honestly I think was a fluke. The second time was with a protostrategy, and the third time was with a more robust strategy. I'm now working on the 4th time as I type this to make sure it's consistent and easy to understand.
Has anyone else solved this yet? Would it be worth me to continue down this avenue, or just wait until my next 2x3x4 which Calvinfan is graciously sending to me and render it unbandaged?


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:49 am 
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Doctor who wrote:
Has anyone else solved this yet? Would it be worth me to continue down this avenue, or just wait until my next 2x3x4 which Calvinfan is graciously sending to me and render it unbandaged?


I posted this earlier in the thread: http://tartarus.org/gareth/stuff/cubes/234blocking.html . A couple of people have replied and said that it worked for them. Using that (or rather the more practical http://tartarus.org/gareth/stuff/cubes/234blocking2.html), I think that I have a perfectly enjoyable puzzle.

It requires (a) seeing the insides clearly when you stretch the puzzle a bit, and (b) understanding my description of what I see. Perhaps others can describe it more clearly.

However, given that the non-split inner edges can end up in three of the four outer places, any solution that doesn't look inside would surely end up being a sequence that goes through all possibilities, being truncated when the ends are unblocked..?


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:23 pm 
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MF8 wrote:
....If we turn the outer layer "2" face to this status, the "4" face can not be turned, this is acceptable to everybody....
Let us clarify this, please.
A few days ago, I asked the question below and Tony Fisher gave a convincing answer:
Tony Fisher wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Have you ever tried to find out, how a "fully functional 2x3x4" is defined?
Yes, everybody has expectations, but even our own Museum does not clarify the question
I am biased of course but believe in most cases the first person to make a puzzle pretty much sets the ground rules for it. I made the world's first in April 2003- http://tonyfisherpuzzles.net/049b%202x3 ... 20%29.html
In my following picture I use the mf8 2x3x4:
Image
If we start with situation 1, everybody expects that all layers can be turned by 180° turns.
After a 90° turn as in "2", everybody here in the twistypuzzle forum expects that a turn as in picture 3a or 3b is legal. As my picture shows, I can do them on the mf8 2x3x4, on Garrett's and Tony can do it on his.
What do you express by
MF8 wrote:
....If we turn the outer layer "2" face to this status, the "4" face can not be turned, this is acceptable to everybody....
Do you say that the turns 3a or 3b are not legal?

If I scramble the mf8 2x3x4 using 90° turns (everybody here epects this from a fully functional 2x3x4), I'll end with some likelihood with blocked 3x4 faces.

I have scrambled and solved it many times this way.
I had to disassemble the puzzle to understand the mechanism fully and the posts of Burgo and drswirly were of some help. I did not use the table provided by drswirly, though. I used some basic Domino edges only permutations.

Nobody here expected this from a fully functional 2x3x4!!

If mf8 says that this kind of blocking is an additional challenge, a feature, most people here would not buy such a puzzle. You have to peer inside the puzzle to recognize where split edges are located.
I need very good lighting and my glasses to do this.
This is no real fun!

That's why Pete made his joke with the "Peephole Cube".

Please, let us convince you to make a different version and offer a "repair kit" with split edges!!!

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 Post subject: Re: About our Full Functon 2x3x4 Cube
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:56 pm 
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MF8 wrote:
If you use all the split-edges, the structure of the cube is not ever a 2x3x4, it is a 3x4x4.

So, we insist that our design is not a mistake, it is our purpose.




I a'm missing somthing here. I put all the split edges in and now it work's like a 2x3x4, and how everyone thinks that it should. This is what I do not get from what MF8 said.

"If you use all the split-edges, the structure of the cube is not ever a 2x3x4, it is a 3x4x4"
Where does the 3x4x4 part come into play?


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 Post subject: Re: About our Full Functon 2x3x4 Cube
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:18 pm 
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MF8 wrote:
Hi everyone, we want to talk something about our full function 2x3x4 cube's design concept.

In our opinion, a "full function" 2x3x4 must be designed totally a 2x3x4 cube. It means both the outside look and inside structure are 2x3x4 cube.

Like this picture:
Attachment:
001.jpg

If we turn the outer layer "2" face to this status, the "4" face can not be turned, this is acceptable to everybody.
So, the same thing happen in the inner layer, like this picutre:
Attachment:
002.jpg

Though the outer layer looks like normal, but the inner layer "2" face did chnage, so the whole "4" face can not be turned.
This is our purpose when we designed.
If you use all the split-edges, the structure of the cube is not ever a 2x3x4, it is a 3x4x4.

So, we insist that our design is not a mistake, it is our purpose.

And no matter wholesaler or retailer, the full function 2x3x4 they got from us are the same.

Thanks

Yeah, all I got from this is that you refuse to admit you made a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Quote:
Yeah, all I got from this is that you refuse to admit you made a mistake.

Yes. A lot more respect would have been garnered by simply saying "Sorry. We stuffed up. we'll make it right." To continue Konrad's theme: Nobody expects perfection all the time. Everybody expects (hopes) that people will just adknowledge mistakes, make them right, and we can move on.

Mf8, I sincerely hope you're compensating calvin for his generous offers to us who bought the puzzle initially to make it right for us.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:07 pm 
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rline wrote:
Mf8, I sincerely hope you're compensating calvin for his generous offers to us who bought the puzzle initially to make it right for us.
Agreed. mf8 you have made some amazing puzzles, your skill in bringing these puzzles to us so we can afford them is undeniable. Make this one small error right.

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 Post subject: Re: About our Full Functon 2x3x4 Cube
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:18 pm 
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MF8 wrote:
So, we insist that our design is not a mistake, it is our purpose.

As one who did not buy the original MF8 2x3x4, I will accept this statement. However, I would like to ask you if you would consider putting together another version of your 2x3x4 which does not have this design, and rather has an internal mechanism that allows the outer puzzle to behave as we all expected it would in the first place.

To sum up:
I do not want a hidden puzzle within the puzzle.
I do not want a wormhole type puzzle.
I would like a simple, straightforward 2x3x4.

But I acknowledge that the ones I do not want may appeal to some puzzlers. It might be nice to have all three options offered so puzzlers of all levels could enjoy at least one.

Would you kindly consider offering a simple 2x3x4 that does not have the hidden locking mechanism inside? Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:07 pm 
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drswirly wrote:
I posted this earlier in the thread: http://tartarus.org/gareth/stuff/cubes/234blocking.html . A couple of people have replied and said that it worked for them. Using that (or rather the more practical http://tartarus.org/gareth/stuff/cubes/ ... king2.html), I think that I have a perfectly enjoyable puzzle.

Yes, and quite a brilliant piece of narrative it is! So much so, I don't think I have the cognitive capacity to fully understand it. Even with the TARDIS universal translator :wink: But this is because I'm much more of a hands on visually oriented learner as opposed to one who learns by reading the instructions. I couldn't even use a toaster if I had to read the instruction manuel first!
However, I do agree very much that I have a perfectly enjoyable puzzle, as is...
drswirly wrote:
It requires (a) seeing the insides clearly when you stretch the puzzle a bit, and (b) understanding my description of what I see.

So my technique is refined. No need to look at the inner workings, no need to understand what's under the hood at all. The solution works, and works consistently, but you have to be ready to do some trial and error and dive into the unkown. Ok MF8, I think I get it now. Not the puzzle I was expecting, not the puzzle that I would have immediately bought, and honestly not the puzzle that I thought was initially advertised, but a puzzle that I'm very much enjoying :)


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Quote:
The solution works, and works consistently, but you have to be ready to do some trial and error and dive into the unkown

Is it a bunch of long algorithms? Or is it simple and easy to remember? :)

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Last edited by rline on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:13 am 
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Woah! :shock: Was going to buy 2x3x4 end of this week. Good thing I haven't yet...

I'm not really keen on modifying my 2x3x4 to get rid of that bandaging, so yes please do make an unbandaged version. Would be greatly appreciated. :)

By the way, not to veer to far off the topic, but I did notice somewhere further up the discussion here that this happens also in the 3x4x5.

If there are going to be replacements, can there also be replacements for the 3x4x5 as well? Sorry to push it but I really want a Fully Functional 3x4x5. :) (Even if it only causes problems in very few cases.)

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:48 am 
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rline wrote:
Is it a bunch of long algorithms? Or is it simple and easy to remember?

No new algorithms, nothing new to memorize. The only risk was the glares and rolling eyes that I got from my current traveling companion (wife) for all the time I was taking fiddling with this little puzzle! I think she would rather my attention and hands be occupied with other things.
Uh, like filling the dishwasher and changing the lightbulbs! I thought that I needed to provide instant clarification for that one! :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:52 am 
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Quote:
I think she would rather my attention and hands be occupied with other things.
Uh, like filling the dishwasher and changing the lightbulbs! I thought that I needed to provide instant clarification for that one! :oops:

Oh yes you did. :lol:

So if there's no new algs and nothing new to memorise, what aspect of it is diving into the unknown? :)

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:47 am 
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rline wrote:
So if there's no new algs and nothing new to memorise, what aspect of it is diving into the unknown?

Well, it's like this. When you buy a computer, you expect it to be fully functional without any lockups or freeze ups. And yet, you expect that this will happen as it occurs so many times. So you take precautions and save your work from time to time. Should it lock up, you simply do a soft reset, which, after a series of well deserved expletives, consists of pulling the plug or turning it off and then on. This will land you where you left off and allow you to continue.

So too with this puzzle. I use a "reset" algorithm to reconfigure things. The lockups occur when you place the puzzle in a shapeshifted form and then back again. Owing to alignment issues, this locks up one or both sides, depending on 1, 2, or even 3 pieces that are internally bandaged. The "reset" algorithm simply takes the puzzle from its cuboid shape to a shapeshifted shape and then back again to its original confirmation. This will reset things and thus potentially free up the 2x3 end side that you need to rotate 180 degrees. The diving into the unknown is if it will work with one, two, or three applications of the algorithm. There are ways to minimize the number of tries, which has to do with identifying the piece that is bandaged and letting that be the one involved in the shapeshifting. Sometimes you get lucky and you get it with one try, sometimes you can't seem to get it at all, so you have to reorganize your end pieces.

So here is my strategy and algorithm: It's quite simple, really, you just use the old familiar algorithm of...static...then you just...cosmic interference...all you have to do is then...lines across screen...more static...and this part is very important...screen goes blank and locks up....communications lost...


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:43 am 
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Doctor who wrote:
The only risk was the glares and rolling eyes that I got from my current traveling companion (wife) for all the time I was taking fiddling with this little puzzle! I think she would rather my attention and hands be occupied with other things.
Uh, like filling the dishwasher and changing the lightbulbs! :oops:

I have one of those too! :shock: :shock:
I hope for your sake that it isn't the same one!
Sometimes the noise from her can be so loud that you actually have to put a puzzle down and do some chores!! That seems to be the only way to quieten her down to the usual low level of background radiation!

I have looked into trading her in for a newer puzzle but the second hand market for "travelling companions" is very slow at present. I have found that an alternative to chores for obtaining concentration levels of noise is buying her a new handbag or shoes (or heaven help me - diamonds!!) - the down side of this is that it eats into my puzzle budget.

"What's that dear? No I wouldn't dream of writing anything about you! Ouch!"

Logs off very quickly!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:03 am 
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Puzzlemad wrote:
"What's that dear? No I wouldn't dream of writing anything about you! Ouch!"


When can we expect Mrs. S. as the newest TP member?

Would be interesting how she follows your posts.... :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:55 am 
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Here is a picture of our 2x3x4 sample, which is made by 3D-printing.
Attachment:
3d.jpg
3d.jpg [ 135.34 KiB | Viewed 7220 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:13 am 
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OK, back to the hidden edges (I read the last few posts to my wife and she didn't find it nearly as funny as I did :lol: )

This photo shows the eight hidden edges in a solved state where all 3x2 edges can be turned.
They are below the circles.
I show the puzzle in frontview /backview.

I'll use the same terminology as drswirly: "good" edges (indicated by a +) mean split edges that allow the 3x2 face to turn, bad edges (-) will not.

Image
Good edges are at UL, UR and DL, DR.
Bad edges are at UF, UD, DF, DB.
Burgo had already shown a usual Domino sequence to exchange UF and UR.
You just have to take care of the "rooted piece" (again drswirly terminology; in my picture the marked orange/yellow edge adjacent to the blue /orange/yellow corner; you need to find it on your puzzle using drswirly's hints) and have it not involved in this sequence:
[(Rw2, U)x2 (Rw2, U2)x2 Rw2, U, Rw2, U', Rw2]
The puzzle looks now:
Image
Besides the swap of outer pieces two hidden edges at UF and UR are swapped!
UR has become a bad end and UF a good end.
The swapped visible pieces can be swapped back by cuboid turns (18o° moves) after you have corrected all bad edges.

Without peering into the interior of the puzzle you can now use a trial and error plan to swap recognized bad edges with supposed good edges.
Whenever you recognize one or more bad ends, there must be one or more good edges at places where a bad edge is OK.(UF, UD, DF, DB in my picture)

The inner edge adjacent to the rooted piece will travel always with the rooted piece.
So, there can be a maximum of three bad edges to be replaced by good edges.

Everybody may decide by herself / himself if he /she views this behaviour as fun or a "nice challenge".
I can be mistaken, but my guess is that close to 100% would prefer a "normal" fully functional 2x3x4.
Should we make a voting? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:57 am 
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I'm struggling to understand what is negative about having all split edges.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
I'm struggling to understand what is negative about having all split edges.


The problem I have sence I traded out the hole edges with the split edges is that.
1. I'm having problems with it not getting badanged up.
2. It works like a 2x3x4 none bandage should.
3. I'm having to much fun with it now that I did change them out.
4. Sorry for the sarcasime. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
I'm struggling to understand what is negative about having all split edges.
Yeah, good question. So far, sear70 is the one who has experienced it.
Minus the sarcasm, the puzzle would just be as everyone expected it. (like Garret's, Tony's, Traiphum's)

Something positive: The puzzle turns fantastic (at least compared with my two others), and I have not yet lubricated it.
I would recommend an expected unbandaged version to everybody.
The existing version is either to be viewed as non-shapeshifting or something for the hidden unsplit edges enthusiast. :lol: (A little bit of sarcasm intended)

@mf8:I think this forum is VERY interested in your response!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube - mass produced and release
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:37 pm 
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zamkam wrote:
[...] I bought Garrett's 2x3x4 a while back and I was very disappointed with the quality because of two MAJOR problems:

1. The center core can get "off track" and lock the 2x4 faces (a problem acknowledged by Garrett himself).
[...]
So......is this the same version or is it the "new and improved" 2x3x4?


This 2x3x4 from mf8 can lock.

Simple

[F 3x4 U 2x4] U (Rr)^2 F^2 *Rr)^2 U and the L face can be blocked (if not, turn the cube upside down and retry). Some of the inner hidden pieces are not split if they land on the 2x3 faces, these are locked. Note that you have to repeat the sequence 3 times to return to unlocked state(!).

Roberto


Last edited by mocenigo on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube - mass produced and release
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:13 am 
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mocenigo wrote:
zamkam wrote:
[...] I bought Garrett's 2x3x4 a while back and I was very disappointed with the quality because of two MAJOR problems:

1. The center core can get "off track" and lock the 2x4 faces (a problem acknowledged by Garrett himself).
[...]
So......is this the same version or is it the "new and improved" 2x3x4?


This 2x3x4 from mf8 can lock.

Simple

[F 3x4 U 2x4] U (Rr)^2 F^2 *Rr)^2 U and the L face can be blocked (if not, turn the cube upside down and retry). The inner hidden pieces have the same "asymmetric" structure as in mf8's (and also TomZ's) 3x4x5 and if you flip them, they lock the external face. Note that you have to repeat the sequence 3 times to return to unlocked state(!).

Roberto


OMG, just found this thread. Got cube yesterday and got it bandaged at first try to solve. Thought it was just occasional or me having used too much force twisting it. Spend a good hour to disassemble and find a problem (bad/good edges) and fix it manually. Now see it is not actually fixed and was done on purpose after getting it bandaged again using the sequence above.

Please, please add my vote for normal 2x3x4 with all good edges. After we master it feel free to issue bandaged crazy or whatever versions. :oops:

And thanks Konrad for very detailed explanation. Pity I have not seen it yday.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:21 am 
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Btw, is it possible to make one unbandaged 2x3x4 out of two bandaged or one needs parts of different shape?


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:27 am 
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Shrike wrote:
Btw, is it possible to make one unbandaged 2x3x4 out of two bandaged or one needs parts of different shape?
Yes, you just need a second 2x3x4 and can swap out the whole edges for split edges.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism !
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:36 am 
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I wrote in a PM to mf8:
Konrad wrote:
Subject: mf8 Full Function 2x3x4 Cube with bandaged mechanism

Hello mf8,

I think, the twistypuzzles forum is still waiting for responses from you.
The most important question is:

Will there be a version with all internal edges split?

I do not see a good reason for not making this!

It is not necessary that you admitt a failure, though.
You could just recognize that your customers prefer a shape-shifting version that does not lock.

Your marketing chances are MUCH better with such a version.
The puzzle itself is very good and without locking everybody will love it.

Best regards

Konrad
It is still in my Outbox.
I really hope that mf8 listens to us. Are we so unimportant to them?
I cannot imagine that many of their customers will love the `bandaged` feature.
I believe that it is against ours and their interest at once, if they insist to sell the bandaged version without an alternative.

For now this thread and this other one should help everybody who wants to solve the current version. You should be able to solve a 2x2x3, though.
Just check Youtube e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJAtddEooGk
If you can solve a 3x3x2 Domino, a 2x2x3 is easy.

EDIT: Andreas (Andreas Nortmann) has edited the Museum entries describing 2x3x4 puzzles. They reflect now the common understanding of the twistypuzzles community: Tony Fisher designed the first 2x3x4 in 2003 and his shape-shifting version defines the term "fully functional 2x3x4". Traiphum has made in 2010 a more limited version that can be called "semi fully functional". Traiphum's version does shape-shift and can reach all possible configurations of a fully functional 2x3x4.
By this definition, the mf8 2x3x4 is a "bandaged fully functional 2x3x4".
This bandaging is done by invisible internal pieces which act like the eight edges of a 3x3x2 Domino.
As far as I know, this is the first puzzle with an unvisible bandaging.
Many forum members have expressed the opinion that this invisible bandaging is most unexpected and unwanted.

I hope that others who have better communication channels with mf8 (e.g. Calvin or Roxanne) can influence mf8 to make an unbandaged version that behaves as a normal fully functional 2x3x4.

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