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 Post subject: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:36 am 
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I've decided to stop pirating but the last time I paid for music it was off iTunes. As convenient as that is I feel there must be something better out there (please don't say Spotify)

For those curious as to why I stopped, I read this article.
http://thetrichordist.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/letter-to-emily-white-at-npr-all-songs-considered/

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:19 am 
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Amazon is a pretty good place to buy music.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:55 am 
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David Lowery's essay is a pretty good one. It's eloquent and addresses a lot of points.

One point he does not address though is the belief that music is overpriced and artists shouldn't be able make a living on art alone.

I'm not a complete believer in this idea so I probably won't represent it very well but here are some of the points I'm getting at:

  • Art has some value to those that appreciate it and the artist should get some compensation for it
  • Some artists produce such great or impactful works that they should be able to live solely off of payment for the work (this is rare)
  • Most art doesn't have much intrinsic value and some of it isn't even worth the time and resources put into making it
  • Making art is a good way to balance out one's life but expecting it to be your sole profession quite presumptive

The trouble with music sales as they exist now is that whole albums have a fixed price and it is higher than the value many people place on the music. Given a free option they will choose the free option. It is only the people that value the album at or more than the cost of the album that are willing to pay for it.

iTunes slightly improved the situation by unbundling the album into discrete units. Now if you value an individual song at more than $1 you will buy that song even if you don't value the whole album at more than $15 (or whatever the price may be).

It is for this reason that I really like pay-what-you-want models.

The other argument is a bit more extreme and borders on a philosophy. In short it is roughly that intellectual property and copyrights shouldn't exist at all for anything. There would also be no restriction on information. In a world like this there would be an explosion of culture and creativity. Of course, there are lots of arguments against this system too. I certainly like aspects of this idea though.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:06 am 
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Maybe I'm amazed
Maybe you're amazed:

But the last times I've bought my music directly from the artist via Topspin media.
Yeah, Paul McCartney's collector's albums. <this fits nicely with the Olympic 2012 thread....>

As seeing there are a lot of collectors here, I'm amazed that you don't buy collector's music albums?

That's THE way for artist to go beyond MP3, with nicely designed boxes containing all kinds of booklets and background DVDs. :D


I like such (as I listen mostly a CD), and I get the MP3 also directly with my order.


PS I once tried Amazon for MP3: I was then not allowed to buy. As they only were allowed (by the music company I guess) to sell to people in U.K. (Amazon.co.uk) or U.S.A. (Amazon.com). And there's no Amazon.nl. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to buy MP3s there now.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:08 am 
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What's wrong with buying your music at your local record store,either on cd or album not only is the quality a lot better but you'll still have your music in five years time.As for music being overpriced complete hogwash,if you want it you have to pay for it,most physical forms of music have a price that is lower than I-Tunes especially re-issues and compilations.If the argument that you should only pay what you think is fair,how does ten pound for a Tony Fisher creation sound?
Most artists are not the likes of U2 and their stadia filling ilk but handworking bands playing small venues and the festival circuit year in,year out for little return and probably make about as much money as me or you.All artists deserve to be paid for their regardless of how you get your music.


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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:24 am 
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Spongeharry wrote:
If the argument that you should only pay what you think is fair,how does ten pound for a Tony Fisher creation sound?

The material and everything Tony uses costs a lot more than that. To sell music on iTunes costs barely anything, I assume.
Also, bandcamp.com is a great place to buy music. Everything is pick your own price, with minimums. If you really like something you can pay more, and I think that’s great.


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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:54 am 
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To Eye To Eye,please don't confuse the medium with the product.The product does cost money to produce and quite a bit.Firstly there are rehearsal rooms to hire,then there are studios to hire and engineers as well,then there is transport,insurance and hotel fees whilst at the studios and loss of earnings from your main job and once that is all done there are printing,distrabution costs and more insurance.Even though the cost to produce an I-Tune is miniscule the cost of the actual product,which is the music,can quite high and this is true of all music even lo-fi recordings.


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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:13 am 
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And to add to the above:
selling on iTunes may cost little, but what margin will the artist receive?

And then: when the artist receives money, he/she still has to pay for money transfer (probably; e.g. Paypal costs), and for (income) taxes.


I too think there's no real 'easy money', only more limited risk compared to pressing CDs (that maybe do not sell and have to be dumped afterwards).


Why do you think my E-book is not available in print? Eh?
(you can print it yourself though. As you can put MP3s also on a CD)

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:16 am 
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Yes, and of course that is true to a point. I think musicians should be able to make money, at least enough to pay for making the music. But, I don’t think iTunes needs to charge $12 an album for music by The Beatles, I don’t think they are still trying to pay off recording time for those albums. However, EVERY time Tony makes a puzzle he needs to take time and money. I agree with what you are saying, I just think at a certain point, prices should be reduced.


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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:49 am 
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eye2eye wrote:
I just think at a certain point, prices should be reduced.



Of course. This is also normally the case.
When e.g. Ford comes with a new model the current model car will be offered with some discount (because now people see that as 'the old model').

Maybe Tony can follow this strategy also :lol:

Often this is the same for books and albums 'in re-print'.
And, you probably have noticed that DVDs of popular (new) movies will go from about $20,- just after the release (about a few months after having run in the theatre) to about $ 10,- a year later. To about $ 7,- 2 years later.

So yes, the initial sales are made (hopefully covering for costs and more). And then the rest of it is somewhat 'extra' or for the 'artist's retirement fund'.
With still some basic costs involved.

And I think it's not unfair to ask an artist to perform (and see him in the theatre/ on stage) instead of expecting that he can live by only selling MP3s.
That's also what starting bands do. Well maybe not; they mostly hope to be recognized by their YouTube video.... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:52 am 
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Personally, I listen to alot of music on Spotify, soundcloud, soundclick, youtube, and whereever else I find it available. Any music i find good enough to want to have on my ipod, i buy the CD, or get the mp3's off of itunes. I still prefer having a CD with booklet and everything though, so i buy my favorites in this format.
I'm not claiming to be a saint though, I too have occationally downloaded without paying, but have tried to limit that to music that i don't find elsewhere (some obscure releases may be long sold out, and not available for legal download)

On the other side of this discussion, i play guitar, and have released albums with two bands.
I recognize some points made earlier in this thread, with the first bands releases it was through a record label. The label financed the recordings, and as previously stated, the label will try to earn that back before giving royalties to the artist. With no way of checking how many units were sold however, we never saw a dime from those recordings.
With my current band however we have financed everything ourselves, recorded in our own studio, and released through a distributor only, this seems to be the way many artists nowadays choose to spread their music.
But in the end, with cd-sales, and royalties from spotify and itunes and such, we have still made more from playing shows, and most from selling t-shirts and other merch.

As someone said earlier, the cost of being a musician, with all the equiptment, rehearsal spaces and such, is quite high, but personally I do it for the enjoyment anyway. I never expect to recoup all the money I've spent.

Sorry for going off on a tangent from what this thread is really about, this is something that I have a little knowledge of from both sides, so just thought I'd share.
And in no way am i trying to advertize my music, or try to make it seem like I'm in a big band or anything, I'm not. I love playing, and will continue to do so, regardless of monetary gains.


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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:39 am 
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Tor S wrote:
And in no way am i trying to advertize my music


Oh, but we're interested.
So, where's the link to your Youtube channel?

8-)


- Splinter
...a bit much posting today from me...

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:14 am 
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My preference is ordering CDs from Amazon and ripping them to FLAC.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:12 pm 
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I "rent" music through Rhapsody - have for years. For the stuff "worth buying" I order CD's off Amazon, local store, whatever. Heck, I still listen to vinyl too.

I use iTunes occasionally, but keep in mind that you don't really "own" music you buy from iTunes. At least I think that's the way the license works still - So I rip what I buy from iTunes so I can use it on any device.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:22 am 
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I buy CDs. I like having the physical media and the better quality. There used to be a great local store by me where I bought hundreds of CDs over the years but they closed about two years ago. So these days when I buy something "main stream" (which isn’t very often) I’ll get it at Best Buy. For some other CDs I’ll get them from Amazon, but most of my CDs these days come from www.cdinzane.com (I’m into a lot of prog/power metal).


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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:32 am 
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All of my music is either downloaded from iTunes, physically bought as a CD, or borrowed from friends.

Even when I buy CDs I'll still rip them to the computer and burn another copy. I'll keep the original in the case and use the copy in my car. This way if the copy gets too scratched to play over time I can just burn another one off from the computer.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:52 pm 
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I'm with Volitar Prime in valuing physical CDs. I like the knowledge that what I own has a physical (non magnetic) backup, and I like the artwork, liner notes, etc. that come along with it. And some of the music I like isn't available on line.

When possible I like buying CDs (and shirts, and sweatshirts) from the band directly at a show. I feel this is the best way to make sure they get as much of my money as possible. One step beyond that is buying a CD from a local shop to support them, and then CDs on line (Amazon, eBay).

My views on music piracy (well, piracy in general) are covered in this thread.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:58 pm 
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Historically, the biggest hindrance to artists getting paid is the crappy royalty contracts that they have gotten. It's been standard for the company to state some pennies per unit rate, and then charge the artists back money for anything the company could think of in order to minimize whatever they had to pay out. For example, they took a "breakage" fee out of the artists' royalties, on the idea that records were fragile and could easily shatter, charging this fee long after records had been made with a stronger material that was not subject to much breakage. They business has been simply shark infested.

Companies have done some things to shoot themselves in the foot, that is, they do things that punish the paying customer. The side-stickering is a pain in the neck to open after I have finished yanking off the shrink wrap. How much swearing have I done while opening these things? A lot. I shouldn't need a knife, but I do. Then there's the Sony rootkit that actually secretly embedded itself in your computer system as part of an anti-copying scheme. Now I am reluctant to ever buy anything Sony ever again, just on principle.

Regardless, I desire to have recordings, and I only want to pay for a physical form that has a good chance of keeping its condition long term. So that means I buy CDs, though I'll collect vinyl if it never made it to CD. For years I held back on buying because the pricing per CD has been ridiculous except on specific new discounted hits, ridiculous at least compared to what I was able to be paid for an hour of work. The prices made CDs seem like a luxury, but I wanted to buy lots of them, not only 1 per month or something like that. Now with the internet, there are some places that I can get some of what I want from time to time at a price that I don't mind too much to pay.

Besides the well-known eBay and Amazon for new and used, I get used stuff from Discogs, Musicstack, and Gemm, places where sellers around the world list their stock.


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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Not sure how relevant this is but I have always hated CDs and DVDs. Incredibly unuserfriendly and almost as bad as vinyl. Give me cassettes, or computer files any day.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Not sure how relevant this is but I have always hated CDs and DVDs. Incredibly unuserfriendly and almost as bad as vinyl. Give me cassettes, or computer files any day.

Agreed. I can't stand CDs.

Part of it though is that even though CDs store audio digitally there isn't any sector addressing information (the audio is not written to a filesystem) which prevents consistent, error-free reading of the audio.

First thing I do with a CD is rip it with cdparanoia which uses a bunch of different checks including overlapping audio regions to fix any jitter errors.

I feel much more comfortable trusting content to a reliable filesystem on reliable media.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:16 am 
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I just found a book of my old CD's in the garage tonight and was surprised how much I didn't care if they get ruined.

I've had so many CD's I love get "worn out" or scratched, that I've lost my love for physical media.

I used to have an iPhone, but I feel like I need to be a blueshirted apple "genius" to update my playlist without deleting all my favorite songs inexplicably from my device. Please don't tell me it's user friendly and easy.

I have a car that accepts a USB stick. Can't use any of my itunes purchased music with it.

I now buy music on Amazon for actual money.

And *gasp* I get an mp3 I can play in my car usb stick. Can't do that with anything I bought on itunes, which makes me more and more disgusted as I think about it.

On amazon, I click and it's mine. It's downloading to my phone now as mp3 files.

I put myself through college with music, selling CD's. I remember simmering at people who came up after a concert and proudly told me they got us on Napster. This was a long time ago. :) I think it's sad to not pay your musicians, even if they're less than mediocre and in college, they might need the money for the huge time investment music takes.

So yeah, Amazon is it for now. mp3s and the power to do what I want with them afterwards.

Thinking in the "limit" (calculus nerd) I can't see any closed drm system winning.

It's going to end up that some free standard like mp3, plus some overall enforcement preventing mass redistribution will be the system I'd bet.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:37 am 
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What I want to know is why all the major digital music stores are either Digital Restrictions Managed into Uselessness(Like iTunes) or limits themselves to lossy format like mp3(Amazon)? I can understand keeping mp3 around as a legacy format for the technologically inept, but most people are no longer hindered by slow Internet or small hard drives, so there really is no excuse for not offering a Lossless format that is unencumbered by patents and DRM. When Amazon starts offering their entire digital music catelog in FLAC, I might embrace the "Buy only the good songs" model of music aquisition, but in the meantime, I will be sticking to buying full albums on CD and making my own FLAC files.

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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:48 am 
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I usually buy from iTunes, although I do understand the frustration that people have with them. Amazon is also good, I like to get some things on Amazon as well because sometimes they get exclusive songs from an artist, so it's nice to be able to get those as well (iTunes also does this sometimes.) I also am recently starting to like sites where the artists put up their music and you can name your price. I usually will still pay $10 for an album, even if I could get it for free with name your price. I thought that this comic was particularly relevant.


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 Post subject: Re: Where do you guys buy music from?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:43 am 
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I don't :twisted:

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