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 Post subject: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:07 am 
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I figured here would be a good place to start, as I'm going to do it in real life soon and this is the least potentially harmful place to do it. I'm a pre-transition MtF transsexual, and while sexual preference doesn't come up often on this forum, I figured I should clarify I'm attracted to girls.

For those of you who don't know what that means, I'm physically male but feel I should be a female (MtF = Male to Female). Pre-transition means I haven't taken any steps to alter my body to make me look like a female, save for coming out on here, which isn't too much of a step, but it is one nonetheless.

In real life, I've told my parents (but not my only sibling, my older sister), and a select few friends. Everyone's been supporting so far, and I hope it stays that way, but there have been varying degrees of support-ness. I'm currently 16, and have acknowledged I felt this way for about six years, give or take a year. Looking back, I now know that I've felt it for much longer, but never really formed the conscious thought "I'm a transsexual.", or even really knew why I felt the things that I did. Also, it was more of a gradual realization. There was no "epiphany moment", per se. All I remember is one period of time when I didn't realize it, and a period of time where I did, but where one stops and the other ends is sort of a blur.

Transsexualism doesn't have nearly as much public support as being lesbian or gay or bisexual (LGB) does. This is mainly because the people in the LGB community can say "You don't have to accept me, I'm going to love whoever I want.", while transsexuals can only say "You don't have to accept me, but please treat me like a (fe)male so I can be happy." (I have to give one of my pre-transition MtF friends credit for that explanation, as she used it in her coming out post on a different forum). This makes it especially hard for transsexuals, compared to those in the LGB community, as they have almost no moral support and often feel very alone. I myself was one of those people feeling alone. I felt every day was a chore. All I felt all day was pain, and all I had to look forward to in the next day was pain. This is obviously not a good way to live one's life, with six years of pain built up and absolutely no vent to let it out through. About a week ago, I met two pre-transition MtF transsexuals (Lynn and Kate), and a third one yesterday (Lexi), as well as two of Kate's extremely supportive friends. They've helped me so much in the past week that I only feel what can be compared to a dull throbbing whenever I see a pretty girl, rather than what can be compared to a knife being stabbed into your chest and being twisted. I would like to note, however, that this doesn't mean that I want any less to be a female, merely that I finally found the outlet for six years worth of pain that was built up (think of a dam breaking).

I always identify as a girl on everything (edit: this is talking about online things only, not in real life), from video games to chatrooms to forums, but this forum has a constant element of "Let's meet up somewhere and talk puzzles!", as well as video explanations of new puzzles (which I plan to make whenever I find the time), so I figured it would be less complicated in this case to just identify as a boy so there wasn't a moment of "Wait, I thought she was a girl." when I post a video of me explaining a new puzzle I made/modified.

You may have noticed I differentiate between "girl" and "female", as well as between "boy" and "male". This is because I think of the former of both groups as mental, and the latter of both as physical. In this way, I'm a girl but a male, meaning I'm mentally a girl, but physically male. I find it easier to articulate what you mean by distinguishing the terms like I do.

I would also like to respectfully request that the moderators not edit any negative/flaming comments, or, if they feel it's necessary for the innocence and PG-rated-ness of the forum, to please send me a private message containing the original comment. This is not because I want people to say bad things (because believe me, I don't), but because I feel I need to see the opposition to this as well as the acceptance (though I hope to see more of the latter than the former).

Some of you may know my real name, but most of you may not. However, I would love it if I was called Katniss and you guys referred to me as "she", rather than "he". Obviously, the first thing most of you will think of is The Hunger Games. The books/movie are not why I like the name. I like the name because I find it incredibly pretty. I merely heard about the name from the Hunger Games; the connection between the series and my liking of the name stops there.

I would like to close off by saying that transsexuals are not people with a gender-related fetish or sexual deviants or bad people, merely boys or (in my case) girls being forced to live life the wrong gender who want almost nothing more to be able to show who they really are. Please do whatever you feel compelled to do, whether it be to ask questions, to comment encouragingly, to PM me, or even to do nothing. I will do my best not to get insulted if you accidentally use an offensive term (hint: Stay away from "tranny". I'm pretty sure most of us, including me, hate that.) or if you ask a question that I find a tad crude, and please try to keep the jokes to a minimum, unless they are good-natured and meant to lighten up an otherwise possibly awkward "situation", per se.

Well, I'm sending this off and hoping for the best. For those of you who know my real name, I request that you not use it, as this is the internet and it is forever. I will also be editing the email in my Dino Star sale post and changing it to one that's not linked to my real name, just to be on the safe side.

Thank you guys for reading this, and I hope I can continue to be welcomed by everyone, even those who don't fully accept the real me.

Edit: If anyone who is not a member of the forums wants to talk to me, feel free to email me at MagicWolf434<at>yahoo<dot>com

~Katniss

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Last edited by Katniss on Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:39 am 
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Hey, I'm glad with your decision, I remember you telling me this and am supporting you all the way! I want you to know that I wish you good luck!

-Chris (from skype)

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:52 am 
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I feel exactly the same way as Chris ! You should do what makes you happy !

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:16 am 
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I came back to say that I'm telling that I am actually Bisexual and this is the first place I've said, besides facebook 10 seconds ago, but am finally ready to come out of the closet! thanks Katniss!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:24 am 
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Unfortunately, the world is full of people who can't accept those who are different.

Just think of the issue of gay marriage in the US right now: it's fair enough that most people are not gay, and that's their business and right to not be gay. But what business is it of theirs/ours to say whether any other two people (whom they don't know and will probably never meet) have the right to be gay and form a union, or not. Such hypocrisy!

Live and let live, that's what I say. By the same principle, however, who am I to take the moral highground and tell others that they shouldn't tell others how to behave? That would be the ultimate hypocrisy, so I'm happy to accept others as they are - including those who *can't* accept others as they are.

Intolerance is a big problem in our society (perhaps one of the biggest), but the only way to stay sane is to realise that it's the problem of the intolerant, not of the people they can't tolerate.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:06 pm 
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I wish you all the best in your transition. Although nothing can compare to the support of your friends and family in real life, you could always look online for inspiration or support (always taking precautions to protect yourself and your privacy of course).

One persons story that you may find inspiring that you can learn about online is Kim Petras, she also makes some pretty good music in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:37 pm 
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I wish you the best of luck. While I identify myself as straight and have no desire to change my gender, I've never had any problems with any of my friends who came out. I don't personally know anyone who's transsexual/in the process, but I'm sure I'd be supportive of them.

By the way, I'm not sure if you know this, but Jessica Fridirich, who popularized CFOP, was actually born a male.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:09 pm 
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No big deal Katniss, you is what you is. How about getting your username changed?

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:12 pm 
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For years I've been telling my mom I'm bi. I only tell her that because she doesn't want me to be a Lesbian. (I have to make mom happy. But all my friends know the real me) But I knew I was when I was about 7. I'll be 32 the 26th of June. Every time I read a story like yours, I feel proud that someone like yourself can be who you are and take the good with the bad. Not to mention how mature you are for a 16 year old.

And for the people who think other wise....if you have nothing nice to say, don't say any thing at all :!:

Melissa

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:52 pm 
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It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.

I'm sorry you're so confused at such a young age. I hope you can find a therapist and get the help you need. Please don't be offended, this is not an insult. There's no shame in getting help or talking to a therapist.

If you change your mind, I would love to support you and help you in any way I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:19 pm 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:
It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.


Then why post here at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Steveo wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.


Then why post here at all?


Because he asked for negative comments to stay. GBS I think you should justify yourself though...

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:31 pm 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:
It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.

I'm sorry you're so confused at such a young age. I hope you can find a therapist and get the help you need. Please don't be offended, this is not an insult. There's no shame in getting help or talking to a therapist.

If you change your mind, I would love to support you and help you in any way I can.

I have one question. Are these your own independent and unbiased views or those of religious teachings that you support? I am in no way attacking you or any religion but I am very curious to know.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Steveo wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.


Then why post here at all?

What are you saying? That if someone has a minority view, they shouldn't post? that if someone has a fire and brimstone speech up their sleeve, they shouldn't post?

GBS may well not be in the minority at all. It may just be he's the only brave enough one to risk posting something which will no doubt be misinterpreted.

Quote:
Are these your own independent and unbiased views or those of religious teachings that you support?

Even this question from Tony is actually pretty biased. The assumption of the question is firstly, that it's probably religious teachings, and secondly, that if it is indeed religious teachings, then thank goodness we can all dismiss the post as from some religious nut.

MizMelysaLadi wrote:
if you have nothing nice to say, don't say any thing at all

Melissa, do you have some sort of inside information on new laws that have been passed on free speech? If people post in a calm and rational manner, and nicely, in line with the policies of this forum, are they not allowed to completely disagree?

We do live in a time where everyone is expected to be completely tolerant of any and every view, except the view (and free-speech-right) of intolerance.

I would have thought that being a forum, if someone posts their view in an off-topic category, then others should feel completely comfortable in posting either support or non-support.

No doubt some of my comments will be somehow misinterpreted.

Katniss, I will say that it took a lot of guts for you to post here and I wish you all the best with how things turn out for you.

GBS, I hope you do take the opportunity to justify yourself and that if you do, others will be able to interact with your comments in the tolerant manner people seem to expect.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:47 pm 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:
It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.

I'm sorry you're so confused at such a young age. I hope you can find a therapist and get the help you need. Please don't be offended, this is not an insult. There's no shame in getting help or talking to a therapist.

If you change your mind, I would love to support you and help you in any way I can.


I'm going to side with GB here. This has nothing to do with my religious views, and I think we don't need to bring religion into this discussion at all. I'm speaking more from a psychological standpoint. I just think a man is a man and a woman is a woman. To me, it doesn't matter if a man acts extremely masculine or feminine, he is still a man. Same for a woman.

I've heard the transgender arguments about trying to break down the social barriers and norms of gender, bla bla bla, but isn't what you're doing only reinforcing them? You're a male that identifies with feminine characteristics, so you want to be "treated like a (fe)male so you can be happy." Well... so what? And I mean that in the sense that; does it really matter what people call you that makes you what you are? What people say you are? Because what I seem to be reading (and what I hear from many transgenders) is that you're very dependent on the way people conceive you.

I'm guessing by what you mean as "pain" is the persecution you receive for having these feminine interests while still being a male and that people are trying to force that masculine role onto you, all about the "peer pressure" aspect (A concept that I personally do not believe in). To me it seems that you're giving into the false impression that an effeminate male cannot be called a man. You wanting to be called a girl, that's conforming to peer pressure, reinforcing gender norms. That somehow feeling like a girl makes you feel "odd" and "weird" and "cast out" because it conflicts with your preconceived ideal of what makes a "man", therefore, in your mind, you've become convinced that you must not be a man.

Just some thoughts. Gonna have to cut this short cuz I have to run.

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Last edited by Modern-Day Warrior on Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:55 pm 
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rline wrote:
Quote:
Are these your own independent and unbiased views or those of religious teachings that you support?

Even this question from Tony is actually pretty biased.


GBS did say "fire-and-brimstone speech".

That being said... I will admit that I'm totally "cis-sheltered" and thus don't know a lot about this topic, so please forgive my ignorance, but... Kat, why is it so important to you and others to have the "big change" done? How is being a "woman in a man's body" (I hope that's not an offensive way to say it) different from simply being a feminine male?


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:32 pm 
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I don't want to steal the focus of the thread here so I'll try to keep this short. In interest of full disclosure, I am 26 years old, male, Christian, a virgin (and proud of it), and I'm attracted to females.

Steveo wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.
Then why post here at all?
portal1920 wrote:
... because I feel I need to see the opposition to this as well as the acceptance (though I hope to see more of the latter than the former).
Because he wanted it.
I also wanted to show that not everyone against LGBT is a stereotypical gay-bashing homophobe that wants to kill them. Some of us are actually quite nice :D
Besides, even if I'm wrong, and you don't accept my world view, you too should all be concerned for his well-being. This is a major life-changing decision. I know my church encourages engaged couples to have counseling sessions with a pastor before getting married. It seems only sane to take cautious steps towards a similarly huge decision.
Also, surely there must some people who had the operation that weren't "X trapped in a Y body" and had huge regrets afterwards. I don't claim to be infallible; I hope you don't either.

Tony Fisher wrote:
I have one question. Are these your own independent and unbiased views or those of religious teachings that you support? I am in no way attacking you or any religion but I am very curious to know.
These are my views and I get them from my religion. I'm always confused when people assume that "organized religion" is only for people who can't think for themselves. Not saying that's exactly what you're saying, but that just how it feels sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:04 pm 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
I have one question. Are these your own independent and unbiased views or those of religious teachings that you support? I am in no way attacking you or any religion but I am very curious to know.
These are my views and I get them from my religion. I'm always confused when people assume that "organized religion" is only for people who can't think for themselves. Not saying that's exactly what you're saying, but that just how it feels sometimes.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying and your answer confirms what I suspected. Can you honestly say that if you weren't told to think this way you would have concluded by yourself that Katniss needs to see a therapist? And why on earth have you told us that you are 26 and a virgin and proud of it? What relevance is that? It's hardly something to boast about and maybe you should see a therapist.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I'm speaking more from a psychological standpoint. I just think a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

Everyone is entitled to there opinion but accepted scientific opinion differs.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
I have one question. Are these your own independent and unbiased views or those of religious teachings that you support? I am in no way attacking you or any religion but I am very curious to know.
These are my views and I get them from my religion. I'm always confused when people assume that "organized religion" is only for people who can't think for themselves. Not saying that's exactly what you're saying, but that just how it feels sometimes.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying and your answer confirms what I suspected. Can you honestly say that if you weren't told to think this way you would have concluded by yourself that Katniss needs to see a therapist? And why on earth have you told us that you are 26 and a virgin and proud of it? What relevance is that? It's hardly something to boast about and maybe you should see a therapist.


Tony, I think GB has been very respectful in stating his views, and I think he is right in saying that major life decisions can always be made with the help of counseling for a system of support. I think considering this is an open topic about sexuality, there is no harm in him sharing his life so that we know where he's coming from. (Not to mention the author asked specifically for negative and positive comments alike.) Just because he's religious, the attitude should not be "You're unquestioningly accepting a sheepish, uneducated, conservative opinion of sexuality therefore you're wrong." Just as my (or GB's) attitude should not be "You're unquestioningly accepting a sheepish, uneducated, liberal opinion of sexuality therefore you're wrong," which is not what I've seen happen thus far.

What should be the difference between a man saying "I feel like a woman and I'm proud of it," and a man saying "I'm a 26yo, Christian virgin and proud of it"? If tolerance is what the world is going for here, that means tolerate the faithful conservative too. I think GB was also right to say that he can respectfully disagree with the LGBT community and discuss his reasons (even try to persuade, just as you are doing) without being hateful and hurtful.

Tony Fisher wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I'm speaking more from a psychological standpoint. I just think a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

Everyone is entitled to there opinion but accepted scientific opinion differs.


Scientific opinion would agree with me. Penis = male, Uterus = female. That's biology. What I mean to say is; be as feminine as you like, you're still male. Be as masculine as you like, you're still female. Yes, gender is a social construct, so (to me) why bother even asking people to call you one or the other? Why should their opinion affect the way you feel about yourself?

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:57 pm 
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I think we need to stop debating this and just leave it with our own opinions, whatever the reasons for those opinions may be.
I suppose you could say that I support Katniss. Going by my own personal beliefs and morals, there isn't anything that I can/should do to alter her way of life. There isn't anything wrong with her, she is the way she is, she likes the way she is, and that's that.


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:08 pm 
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E Jenkins wrote:
I think we need to stop debating this and just leave it with our own opinions, whatever the reasons for those opinions may be.
I suppose you could say that I support Katniss. Going by my own personal beliefs and morals, there isn't anything that I can/should do to alter her way of life. There isn't anything wrong with her, she is the way she is, she likes the way she is, and that's that.

So why does she need to come out?

I mean, I don't think there's anything massively majorly wrong with me, I am the way i am, I like the way I am and that's that. But I didn't start a thread telling everyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Katniss, I'll start out by saying that I greatly respect and support your decision, and will leave it at that so as not to get flamed by others.

If you find yourself needing support or just plain answers, there are huge communities available on reddit, specifically at r/lgbt, r/asktransgender, and even r/atheism and r/askreddit. Reddit, if you don't know, is a very open, largely atheistic and liberal community that is generally very supportive of LGBT rights. They have never failed to answer any of my questions, both objective and personal, and I'm sure they won't disappoint you.


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:25 pm 
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E Jenkins wrote:
I think we need to stop debating this and just leave it with our own opinions, whatever the reasons for those opinions may be.
I suppose you could say that I support Katniss. Going by my own personal beliefs and morals, there isn't anything that I can/should do to alter her way of life. There isn't anything wrong with her, she is the way she is, she likes the way she is, and that's that.


Debating this is perfectly natural, and we're doing so because we disagree. Brushing off those with a differing opinion from yours by saying "well we all have our cute little opinions and we should just all stop talking about it because your opinions aren't important," is pretty rude and disrespectful to those of us who see it as wrong. It's the same effect as the "If you don't have anything nice to say..." which is essentially saying "don't you dare disagree with me."

Imagine if a person came on this board and said something to the effect of "Hey guys, [removed] and this is just the way I am and I could really use your support." Would you still be saying, "Oh well I support you because that's your way of life and I shouldn't interfere." Uh, no, I don't think many people would feel that way! (Please do not jump down my throat saying I am lowering the LGBT to the degree of [removed]). My point is that people like me and GB find this morally disagreeable, so we feel (yes, morally) obligated to make our opinions known for the sake of author, whether he chooses to heed what we have to say or not, just as you feel morally obligated to support him. I don't see anything wrong with either side sharing their views.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I just think a man is a man and a woman is a woman. To me, it doesn't matter if a man acts extremely masculine or feminine, he is still a man. Same for a woman.


I'm curious as to whether the people who are against Katniss actually know anything about Transgender issues?

You may be physically a man or a woman but mentally something else. Being able to change your body (or not as is sometimes the case) in order to be more comfortable with who you are is important for the mental health of some people. Then again, some people who are transgendered may choose not to get surgery or hormone therapy, because they are perhaps more comfortable with the body they were born with.

rline wrote:
So why does she need to come out?

I mean, I don't think there's anything massively majorly wrong with me, I am the way i am, I like the way I am and that's that. But I didn't start a thread telling everyone else.


I am surprised (although perhaps I shouldn't be) that someone would even ask about why should someone bother coming out.

Perhaps in your life your views match with the majority of the people you know, or who are around in your society, but this question is really only one who isn't in an oppressed/hated/put down (or whatever) group would ask. It's almost like saying "I'm uncomfortable with the things you are expressing, and would prefer it if you would just be quiet."

It is important for people who are in a minority group to be able to speak out and be recognized for who they are without any fear of reprisal or abuse physical or verbal, and that won't be able to happen until enough people stand up for their rights.


@Katniss I am glad that you are able to stand up for your rights, as you are paving the way for future generations to be able to do the same, and giving hope to those who perhaps can't come out now, because they fear for their lives, or of being kicked out of their home.

I realize that issues such as these are uncomfortable for a lot of people, but really, wouldn't it be better to actually understand the issue before condemning it, or trying to shush it and put it back in a closet?

GuiltyBystander wrote:
I'm sorry you're so confused at such a young age. I hope you can find a therapist a]nd get the help you need. Please don't be offended, this is not an insult. There's no shame in getting help or talking to a therapist.

If you change your mind, I would love to support you and help you in any way I can.


Again, it would seem that you don't really understand the issue at hand. Do you not know that in order to get hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery, that you have to seek counseling first? (For the sake of argument, I will assume that Katniss is considering one or both of those options)

If Katniss does decide to seek counseling, lets hope that she gets it from someone who actually understands the issue, and not someone who wants to dissuade her for their own selfish reasons.


Last edited by Near on Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:34 pm 
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First off, Katniss, I must say that you have an incredible and truly laudable courage for posting this and I am humbled that you have so much trust in us as to post it here on the Twisty Puzzles Forum. I believe that no matter who tells you what to do, you should always follow what you believe is what you want and if you don't know what you desire, you should self reflect upon your life for what you do desire. This is a very biased, bigot, prejudice, corrupted world we live in and you will only face more antagonism as you continue through life. Reading your story made me think that you are one who stands true for who you are, and you are one who has unbreakable integrity. I applaud and highly respect you for that. That constant pain that you have endured through did not break you down but, I believe, made you stronger. I have always believed that it is not push-ups and exercising that makes you strong, but how much pain you have endured, and you are probably one of the strongest people out there. Even though there are times when I find the decision is a little bit awry from the norm, I still don't discourage it. If this is what you truly believe, then this is what you should pursue. And if people think that your decision is weird, just ask them, "What is weird? Something that is different, or something that is different than you?" I truly hope that you stand for what you believe and achieve your desires no matter what obstacles you may come to face.

You are the epitome of integrity.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:00 pm 
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I just have one question. Why is it wrong of someone to feel a certain way if it makes them happy? Whether they're straight, gay, bisexual, transsexual or pansexual, why is it if someone is different than someone else sexually the don't deserve the same level of happiness?

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:11 pm 
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Near wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I just think a man is a man and a woman is a woman. To me, it doesn't matter if a man acts extremely masculine or feminine, he is still a man. Same for a woman.


I'm curious as to whether the people who are against Katniss actually know anything about Transgender issues?

You may be physically a man or a woman but mentally something else. Being able to change your body (or not as is sometimes the case) in order to be more comfortable with who you are is important for the mental health of some people. Then again, some people who are transgendered may choose not to get surgery or hormone therapy, because they are perhaps more comfortable with the body they were born with.


There is, honestly, no need to resort to the ad hominem argument. Like I said before, disagreement is not always equatable to being ill informed. And you replied to my 'thesis' without bothering to address my argument. As I've said, I've already heard the common sayings that you can be "mentally" something else and I've already said that the issue of gender is socially constructed, hence what I've said in my posts above.

Near wrote:
I realize that issues such as these are uncomfortable for a lot of people, but really, wouldn't it be better to actually understand the issue before condemning it, or trying to shush it and put it back in a closet?

Again, this is not an issue of discomfort nor lack of understanding.

Near wrote:
If Katniss does decide to seek counseling, lets hope that she gets it from someone who actually understands the issue, and not someone who wants to dissuade her for their own selfish reasons.

Selfish? What? Dissuade? If you see someone going down a bad path (drugs, alcohol, sex, what have you) don't you feel the need to intervene? This is what I said earlier in my post above. Our disagreement does not stem from trying to force someone "back into the norm" to fulfill some kind of selfish desire, only to share our own point of view and our rational reasons for why we feel it's wrong.

SHomer9 wrote:
I just have one question. Why is it wrong of someone to feel a certain way if it makes them happy? Whether they're straight, gay, bisexual, transsexual or pansexual, why is it if someone is different than someone else sexually the don't deserve the same level of happiness?

A very common argument. It's not that a single person in the world doesn't deserve happiness, it's about the means one goes about to achieve it. Can I ask you why you think murder is wrong, even if someone derives happiness from it? Do you think [removed] is wrong? What about [removed]? How about [removed]? (Again, please to not say I am comparing these kinds of behavior explicitly to the degree of being homosexual or transgender).

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Near wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I just think a man is a man and a woman is a woman. To me, it doesn't matter if a man acts extremely masculine or feminine, he is still a man. Same for a woman.


I'm curious as to whether the people who are against Katniss actually know anything about Transgender issues?


There is, honestly, no need to resort to the ad hominem argument. Like I said before, disagreement is not always equatable to being ill informed. And you replied to my 'thesis' without bothering to address my argument. As I've said, I've already heard the common sayings that you can be "mentally" something else and I've already said that the issue of gender is socially constructed, hence what I've said in my posts above.


It would perhaps be ad hominem if I had said: "Modern-Day Warrior does not understand the issue at hand, and is only saying what he does because of his own personal struggles with the issue." (Please bear in mind that I am not saying that, nor do I believe that.)

Ad hominem is making a personal attack to negate the truth of a claim. I don't believe that what I said was a personal attack on you, nor did I mean it to be, my apologies if you felt that I was attacking you.

I actually agree with you, that disagreement does not necessarily equate with ignorance (I had meant to say as much in the post that I made, but forgot).

If anything, it may have been a hasty generalization, but since I posed it as a question, it should really only be taken as a question.

Honestly, after going back and rereading your posts, I'm not sure what your thesis is.


Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Near wrote:
I realize that issues such as these are uncomfortable for a lot of people, but really, wouldn't it be better to actually understand the issue before condemning it, or trying to shush it and put it back in a closet?

Again, this is not an issue of discomfort nor lack of understanding.


For you, I accept that it isn't, but for others, it does seem to be.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Near wrote:
If Katniss does decide to seek counseling, lets hope that she gets it from someone who actually understands the issue, and not someone who wants to dissuade her for their own selfish reasons.

Selfish? What? Dissuade? If you see someone going down a bad path (drugs, alcohol, sex, what have you) don't you feel the need to intervene? This is what I said earlier in my post above. Our disagreement does not stem from trying to force someone "back into the norm" to fulfill some kind of selfish desire, only to share our own point of view and our rational reasons for why we feel it's wrong.


You are assuming that Katniss is going down a bad path, where's the evidence of this? Some people may regret having gender reassignment surgery (Katniss may or may not actually be considering this), from what I have read online about this, it seems to be that they (in the case of MTF transsexual individuals) feel that they are not a real woman. It is unclear from what I have read (not a lot I admit) whether or not these individuals actually sought counseling before transitioning. This I feel is a mistake, which it sounds like you do too.

What I mean is, a lot of therapists who are unfamiliar with the issue may try to argue that it is immoral to live that sort of lifestyle, without any valid evidence to support that sort of a claim. The point I was trying to make is that it is important to seek counseling from either an expert in the field, or someone who is familiar with the issue, not someone who has 'moral reservations' about it.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
SHomer9 wrote:
I just have one question. Why is it wrong of someone to feel a certain way if it makes them happy? Whether they're straight, gay, bisexual, transsexual or pansexual, why is it if someone is different than someone else sexually the don't deserve the same level of happiness?

A very common argument. It's not that a single person in the world doesn't deserve happiness, it's about the means one goes about to achieve it. Can I ask you why you think murder is wrong, even if someone derives happiness from it? Do you think [removed] is wrong? What about [removed]? How about [removed]? (Again, please to not say I am comparing these kinds of behavior explicitly to the degree of being homosexual or transgender).



There is some loaded language in your statement for example [removed]. What is [removed]?

[removed]

If these types of behaviour are nothing to do with the issue at hand, why bring them up? I call red herring sir.


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:11 pm 
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I am a 25 year-old male of quite feminine gender who believes androgyny to be the pinnacle of male beauty.
I was raised in a Christian household, but I am myself an agnostic with some deistic leanings.
I am a 1 on the Kinsey Scale though in a sense, I am trisexual with a preference towards females and hermaphrodites.
I have been in a monogamous relationship with the female I gave my virginity to for over six years.
The core of my morality is summed up in the principle of do no harm.
The core of my morality in regards to sexuality can be summed up as: All acts of love are scared.

That said, I not only accept and support Katniss embracing her true nature, but hope that for her sake, and those like her, that they live to see medical technology reach a point where sex changes operations are not just cosmetic, but actually allow one to become a fully functional member of the opposite sex.

edited for propriety

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:32 am 
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Obviously a topic of some controversy and it would be a true shame for it to head the wrong direction. There have been a few signs of this but we've held to the rails (barely) so far.

I have a few points of reminder:

1.) Regardless of Katniss' desire or ability to receive all forms of unedited feedback our forum does have its standards and they will be enforced. A member's request does not repeal board policy. Sorry Katniss if this means the potential of some editing but we (or at least I) will send you the original content in the sad event that editing is necessary.

2.) Controversial topics are best avoided on TwistyPuzzles because they have a history of being divisive. This is a place people come to enjoy what brings us together (puzzles), not to be driven apart. Off Topic is a place to get to know each other better outside of the puzzle space, and this particular topic clearly matches the issue of getting to know Katniss.

3.) Some topics can be both controversial and educational. This topic seems to be in this category as it is something about which many people do not have experience. This educational value is weighed against the divisive impact it might have. In the past religion and politics topics have not fared well. Should this topic show signs of trouble it will necessarily be locked, edited or deleted. Please help me avoid this.

4.) Be polite. Disagreement is not banned or discouraged from this forum, if done in a respectful manner. Some replies so far have not done a good job in this area.

5.) Mentions of [removed], [removed] or [removed] are not appropriate on this forum, particularly in that we have many younger members. Using these terms as examples in this discussion do not make them any more appropriate. Please make your point in some other way. [Admin: Heh! I edit my own message!]

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:13 am 
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Jeffery really your last coment disturbed me a lot!!

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:14 am 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I'm going to side with GB here. This has nothing to do with my religious views, and I think we don't need to bring religion into this discussion at all.


I have absolutely nothing against religion (personally I am atheist) but sometimes, religious beliefs can't be ignored

P.S: don't hit on me for posting this video, I obviously think it's a minority of people who think that strongly about the subject, but it still can't eb ignored that some people are motivated by religious beliefs.

Tony Fisher wrote:
And why on earth have you told us that you are 26 and a virgin and proud of it? What relevance is that? It's hardly something to boast about and maybe you should see a therapist.


:lol: I feel the need to put this in my signature but I'll try to be nice =)

M-D W wrote:
Tony, I think GB has been very respectful in stating his views, and I think he is right in saying that major life decisions can always be made with the help of counseling for a system of support.


Personal opinion: I would never discuss my sexual preferences and thoughts / feelings with someone I don't know. Therapy doesn't seem right to me. You should never have to have someone you don't know make you feel better when they are not involved in your life. I would never undergo therapy, it just doesn't seem right...

M-D W wrote:
Scientific opinion would agree with me. Penis = male, Uterus = female. That's biology. What I mean to say is; be as feminine as you like, you're still male.


If Katniss doesn't want a penis, why keep it ? It's a personal thing she wants to do because she doesn't want the body of a male. I believe surgery is a great thing because it allows you to be the person you really want to be and feel like being.

rline wrote:
So why does she need to come out?

I mean, I don't think there's anything massively majorly wrong with me, I am the way i am, I like the way I am and that's that. But I didn't start a thread telling everyone else.


Because coming out is difficult in our society. You are always judged by people on your every action and though, and I believe people should be tolerant in every aspect of it, but some people just don't accept you the way you are. They think there is an ideal person (it's psychology: one tends to like people similar to them) and minorities aren't often acepted because of that. Judgeing people is something inevitable and being judges can make you feel really bad, so coming out is difficult, and it's understandable you would want to get it over with so that your surrounding knows before you take immediate action.

M-D W wrote:
Debating this is perfectly natural, and we're doing so because we disagree. Brushing off those with a differing opinion from yours by saying "well we all have our cute little opinions and we should just all stop talking about it because your opinions aren't important," is pretty rude and disrespectful to those of us who see it as wrong.


This is exactly the problem with international relations. We have completely different cultures / thoughs and obviously we have different opinions of each and every subject. I belive discussing it is very constructive and helps us comprehend why a certain person would feel the way he/she does.

M-D W wrote:
Imagine if a person came on this board and said something to the effect of "Hey guys, [removed] and [removed] and this is just the way I am and I could really use your support." Would you still be saying, "Oh well I support you because that's your way of life and I shouldn't interfere." Uh, no, I don't think many people would feel that way!


As long as nothing illegal (in this case, action) is done, you can't really force one not to think on his own. If someone fantacizes about [removed], it's his right, even if we don't agree. We have no rights over his thoughts. Illegal actions should automatically be sanctioned, though. We may find this morally disagreeable, but who are we to judge ? We each have our thoughts and feelings and some people may not agree with us, but it is not their position to make us stop feeling or thinking this way.
I believe people should have full liberty to the point where it doesn't affect other people's liberty. This was perfectly stated in the human rights declaration. As long as it doen't hurt other people, I see no reason why people shouldn't be the way they are.
P.S: wikipedia says [removed] is a disorder. I believe they shouldn't say that one's way of thinking is a disorder...
P.S2: In case some of you wonder if I'm a [removed] bcause I defend that people should think what they want to think, I am not a [removed[ (I'm not even an adult yet... for another two days ^^), but as long as nothing is illegal, I don't believe I have the right to be against it

M-D W wrote:
Selfish? What? Dissuade? If you see someone going down a bad path (drugs, alcohol, sex, what have you) don't you feel the need to intervene?


That is exactly your problem, you directly judge Katniss's situation as a "bad path" and feel the need to intervene. You should not consider it factually as being a bad path. It's an opinion, so the worst thing you should do is at least consider it as a complicated path, rather than bad path...
I don't see how you could compare sexual identity to drugs and alcohol and other addictions. This is not an addiction but a preference...

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:01 am 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
Yes that is exactly what I am saying and your answer confirms what I suspected.
And just as I suspected, you decided to take a calm post about my view and started insulting people.
Tony Fisher wrote:
Can you honestly say that if you weren't told to think this way you would have concluded by yourself that Katniss needs to see a therapist?
Unless you grew up in the jungle raised by wolves, I hardly think you can say the same either.
Tony Fisher wrote:
And why on earth have you told us that you are 26 and a virgin and proud of it? What relevance is that? It's hardly something to boast about and maybe you should see a therapist.
I'm just trying to be open and honest about who I am and why I say what I do. I didn't see you jump down portal1920, NXTgen, or MizMelysaLadi's throat for mentioning their age or sexual preference. This clearly shows you're bias and not keeping a level head.

For the most part, I agree with pretty much everything Modern-Day Warrior has said. Especially the part about a moral obligation to say I disagree and that going down that path is wrong.

If you don't agree with me fine (although I hope you do). In your own words, "how do my beliefs affect you?"

I've said what I need to say. I won't be posting anymore here. Parting thoughts @portal1920:
It took a lot of guts to post something like that on here. More than I've got, that's for sure. I hope you can be comfortable with who were born as and you are. I'll be praying for you. Feel free to PM me anytime.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:44 am 
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I've been watching this thread and am pleased that it has stayed (somewhat) unpolluted. For the most part you have all restrained yourselves and I'm glad of it.

One of the things I've always loved about TP is that we are a friendly lot who are open to most new ideas. I hope we stay open on this as well.

I would like to ask that we stick to the topic at hand though. Please don't go off on tangents that are at best tangentially related.

As for religion, let's keep it out of this shall we? We all know from past experience where that leads. Dave and I don't want to have a lot of cleaning up to do.

I wish you all the best with your decision. Know that if you need an ear, we are here for you. A friendly (AND I MEAN THAT-All of you behave) group are at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
The core of my morality in regards to sexuality can be summed up as: All acts of love are scared.
Jeffery, I really hope that you mean "sacred" :shock:

And Katniss, I genuinely hope that you are mature enough to make this sort of life-changing decision, and wish that you will find the happiness you deserve.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:42 pm 
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As a puzzler who's English is not his mother language, it's Usually hard for me to go through an English paragraph which is a little long. But I did read every words from your post.

I want to express my deep impression about your braveness. It must be very hard for you to make this post, as well as the decision. I can't imagine how painful you're during those six year. But I think I got to stand by your side because I think a man should do anything to make themselves happy, if not affecting others.

But just a few worry. I think you have already considered clearly. But what about the pressure from others? It may not be so much people who can accept it. Have you think of getting married in the future? I'm not saying anything bad but you must consider the worst situation. You're just 16. Mature enough to take this?

I hope I'm not discouraging you about this.

Anyway, do what you think it's right. I'm supporting you!


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Gus wrote:
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
The core of my morality in regards to sexuality can be summed up as: All acts of love are scared.
Jeffery, I really hope that you mean "sacred" :shock:


Awkward !

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Gus wrote:
Jeffery, I really hope that you mean "sacred"


Please excuse my lackluster proofreading skills. sacred versus scared is a common typo, and one that spell check cannot catch.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
Gus wrote:
Jeffery, I really hope that you mean "sacred"


Please excuse my lackluster proofreading skills. sacred versus scared is a common typo, and one that spell check cannot catch.
I was not being a spelling/grammar Nazi, it's just that in this context it was quite amusing!

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Wanna be treated like a woman, do ya?

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Get to work! You too, Rox!







:D (Just kidding.)

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:15 pm 
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EMarx wrote:
Wanna be treated like a woman, do ya?

Get to work!

:D (Just kidding.)



Can someone tell me what that is. I don't think I've ever seen one of those....

Back on topic (or off :? ) please.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:37 am 
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I came to this thread because of the obvious red flags, but soon found myself reading through it with interest.

When there is a misalignment between one's sexual identity and one's biological gender, the desire to resolve the misalignment must feel great indeed. To put it simplistically, this misalignment can be resolved in one of two ways: modify the body to match the sexual identity, or modify the sexual identity to match the body. Both biology and psychology are sufficiently advanced to assist the willing participant in accomplishing either task, although these days, it seems that the cultural trend is to choose to modify the body not the mind. It is understandable why Katniss would make this choice.

Having said that, everything that follows is an agrument in favour of making the other choice.

The approach of discerning at least two ways of resolving a misalignment (one internal, one external) applies to all so-called misalignments. If you don't like your local politicians, either change the politicians or change how you choose to view them. If you don't like being "over weight", either lose some weight or change how you choose to view it. And so on.

Over the past 6-7 years I have learned to prefer focusing on the internal option over the external and have deeply integrated this choice into my lifestyle. I have employed this approach to great success in my life: accepting what is rather than trying to change it, and dropping my attachments that things be different than they are.

Is this passive? Is this avoiding engaging in life? Is this depriving the world around you of the full benefit of your unique view and presence? Not at all. You will find that as you achieve peace and alignment within yourself, you will begin to affect the external world around you naturally, without strenuous effort, and positive changes will result. Let me give you an example from my own life.

After 15 years of struggling with lack of fulfillment in the relationship with my wife, I applied this approach and became aware that my attachments to how things "should be" and my views of her were at fault, which never had anything to do with her nor anything else external. It took me a few years to truly embody this awareness, but once I did it, I was immediately rewarded. Our relationship is rock solid for the first time in our 15 years. She trusts me like she never did before. We are closer than we have ever been. I have learned to love someone for the first time in my life.

I seem to want to go on providing further examples, but I think I'm already far enough off topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:13 pm 
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I don't have too much time to respond, as I'm im the middle of finals week and and swamped with studying. In retrospect, I probably should've waited until finals are over so I could respond as things were said.

I feel the need to say some things. I'll be able to respond to each of you individually tomorrow after school when exams are over.

Firstly, thanks to every single one of you for commenting. If you were supportive, thank you very much for the support. If you haven't been supportive, thank you for expressing your view and making me that much stronger.
In my opinion, nobody should be patronized for their views on anything. However, if their actions are detrimental to people around them, they should be patronized.

Sandy, thank you much for your support. I remember breifly discussing this with you a while back. I would like to point out, though, that many transsexuals have tried making their mind match their body. It didn't go well. Most people trying that committed suicide from the immense mental conflictions, so that's not the right way to go at this point in time, as methods for that are far from perfected. Also, most transsexuals (myself included) dread the thought of being happy as the gender they physically are. It's impossible to explain why, however. Also, I'd really appreciate if you would change my nickname to Katniss like Tony Fisher suggested. [Admin: Done!]

As for why I wanted to come out... well, why would anbody want to come out? To have people see them as them, not as the person they're force to pretend to be. As far as I'm concerned I'm Katniss; I'm just forced to pretend to be a male most of the time. Some of you may not agree with that, and that's okay, but, respectfully, you're not me.

I don't mind the people who don't support me, as long as they do so respectfully. I can't stress that enough. Same goes for the people who do support me. If everyone can disagree respecfully, we can retain the integrity of this forum.

Look at it this way: If a 16-year-old can be told that she shouldn't feel what she feels and that she's not going to be accepted in regards to the most painful thing she's ever felt in her life and she can still remain respectful, you can do the same.

~Katniss

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Tony Fisher wrote:
By midnight Rox will have revealed all her secrets, told everyone that she loves us and end up banning herself tomorrow when she reads it all back.

Transsexual and Proud!


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:21 am 
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Finals are over! Woohoo! :D :D :D :D :D

Anyway, I'm going to go through every post so far and try to respond, whether it be here or in PM. This'll take a while. :lol: (I'll likely trim out all of the fat of quotes to keep this inevitably long post as short as possible)

After spending about half an hour typing, I realized that thanking every single person on here separately was a waste of space, so I started over and I'll be PMing everyone who I don't address here to thank you myself. That being said, I'm trimming all of the "I support you"s out of the quotes I use. This doesn't mean I appreciate them any less, however. :)

Well, here we go!

NXTgen wrote:
I came back to say that I'm telling that I am actually Bisexual and this is the first place I've said, besides facebook 10 seconds ago, but am finally ready to come out of the closet! thanks Katniss!!!

I'm glad that I was able to inspire you to show who you really are (corny as that sounds)! Best of luck! :D

KelvinS wrote:
Unfortunately, the world is full of people who can't accept those who are different.

Just think of the issue of gay marriage in the US right now: it's fair enough that most people are not gay, and that's their business and right to not be gay. But what business is it of theirs/ours to say whether any other two people (whom they don't know and will probably never meet) have the right to be gay and form a union, or not. Such hypocrisy!

Live and let live, that's what I say. By the same principle, however, who am I to take the moral highground and tell others that they shouldn't tell others how to behave? That would be the ultimate hypocrisy, so I'm happy to accept others as they are - including those who *can't* accept others as they are.

Intolerance is a big problem in our society (perhaps one of the biggest), but the only way to stay sane is to realise that it's the problem of the intolerant, not of the people they can't tolerate.

I largely agree with this, but I disagree with the part where you say you shouldn't tell others how to behave. for the most part, you shouldn't, but if something someone does negatively impacts someone else, unless it's largely beneficial for others, there should be repercussions, whether they be legal or social. Also, people being intolerant becomes the problem of the people they can't tolerate when the former act out against the latter. While some intolerant people don't act out, others do.

Near wrote:
One persons story that you may find inspiring that you can learn about online is Kim Petras, she also makes some pretty good music in my opinion.

I actually have heard of her, and she's one of my big inspirations. I want to be a musician as well, though I'll be in the classical field. Thanks for the info, anyway!

Kapusta wrote:
By the way, I'm not sure if you know this, but Jessica Fridirich, who popularized CFOP, was actually born a male.

I did not know that! That's pretty awesome! If you know a way for me to contact her, please PM me. It would be greatly appreciated!

Tony Fisher wrote:
No big deal Katniss, you is what you is. How about getting your username changed?

Alright, kinda broke my rule here about leaving out "I support you"s, but hey, it's Tony Fisher. :lol:
I really appreciate the support, Tony, it means a lot. You're the person who got me into puzzling for good and introduced me to this forum, so I felt it was only fitting that I say this publicly, because I wouldn't be here (this forum, not the Earth :lol:) without you. In regards to the username change, already done. Thanks for the suggestion. :D

MizMelysaLadi wrote:
For years I've been telling my mom I'm bi. I only tell her that because she doesn't want me to be a Lesbian. (I have to make mom happy. But all my friends know the real me) But I knew I was when I was about 7. I'll be 32 the 26th of June. Every time I read a story like yours, I feel proud that someone like yourself can be who you are and take the good with the bad. Not to mention how mature you are for a 16 year old.

And for the people who think other wise....if you have nothing nice to say, don't say any thing at all :!:

It makes me said when I hear about unsupporting parents. I believe parents should love their kids no matter what. Also, I've been told by many people that I'm very mature for my age. In fact, most adults enjoy having lengthy conversations with me, which isn't something many 16-year-olds can say. :lol:
As for your last sentence, I believe people should be able to present their views no matter what, as long as they do it respectfully.

GuiltyBystander wrote:
It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.

I'm sorry you're so confused at such a young age. I hope you can find a therapist and get the help you need. Please don't be offended, this is not an insult. There's no shame in getting help or talking to a therapist.

If you change your mind, I would love to support you and help you in any way I can.

I mean everything I'm about to say with the utmost respect, honestly. The lack of inflexion on the internet screws with the perceived tone of things sometimes.
I do appreciate the fact that you didn't try to lecture me and make me change my mind. However, I would like to point out that I'm not confused at all, I know exactly what I want: to be a girl. As for the therapist comment, I am seeing one; she is supportive of me, and will be helping me transition when I decide to do so. And honestly, I won't change my mind. I'm more sure of that than I am of the moon landing. ;)

RubixFreakGreg wrote:
Steveo wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
It seems I'm in the minority here, but I don't support this. Don't worry, I won't give you the fire and brimstone speech. I don't think that would do anyone any good.

Then why post here at all?

Because he asked for negative comments to stay.

Exactly, Greg, she did. ;)

Tony Fisher wrote:
I have one question. Are these your own independent and unbiased views or those of religious teachings that you support? I am in no way attacking you or any religion but I am very curious to know.

I feel this is where the posts started to go south. That being said, I hold no blame on Tony, as he did ask it fairly respectfully.

I'll probably comment more sparsely from here on out.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I'm going to side with GB here. This has nothing to do with my religious views, and I think we don't need to bring religion into this discussion at all. I'm speaking more from a psychological standpoint. I just think a man is a man and a woman is a woman. To me, it doesn't matter if a man acts extremely masculine or feminine, he is still a man. Same for a woman.

I've heard the transgender arguments about trying to break down the social barriers and norms of gender, bla bla bla, but isn't what you're doing only reinforcing them? You're a male that identifies with feminine characteristics, so you want to be "treated like a (fe)male so you can be happy." Well... so what? And I mean that in the sense that; does it really matter what people call you that makes you what you are? What people say you are? Because what I seem to be reading (and what I hear from many transgenders) is that you're very dependent on the way people conceive you.

I'm guessing by what you mean as "pain" is the persecution you receive for having these feminine interests while still being a male and that people are trying to force that masculine role onto you, all about the "peer pressure" aspect (A concept that I personally do not believe in). To me it seems that you're giving into the false impression that an effeminate male cannot be called a man. You wanting to be called a girl, that's conforming to peer pressure, reinforcing gender norms. That somehow feeling like a girl makes you feel "odd" and "weird" and "cast out" because it conflicts with your preconceived ideal of what makes a "man", therefore, in your mind, you've become convinced that you must not be a man.

Just some thoughts. Gonna have to cut this short cuz I have to run.

I agree with the statement on leaving religion out of this. I myself am a firm believer in Christianity, yet I still feel the way I do. Religion doesn't always have something to do with everything.
Yes, we are very dependent on how people conceive us, but even if I were to never see another person in my life, I'd still want to transition. As for the comment about fitting into social norms of gender... I don't identify with feminine characteristics, I identify as a female. Even if I were to be a boyish-looking female, I'd be happy, because I'd be female. And we don't do this to break down the social norms, we do this to be happy with our bodies and ourselves.
As for the "pain" I talk about, I mean the indescribable jealousy that becomes almost physically painful whenever I see a girl I want to be. It's mental/emotional pain pushed to almost the point of physical pain. In fact, I've felt painful pangs in my chest before after seeing a girl I want to be. My MtF friend Lynn so eloquently calls this whole thing (not just the chest pangs) "gender dissonance", which I find an extremely fitting word.

Jared wrote:
I will admit that I'm totally "cis-sheltered" and thus don't know a lot about this topic, so please forgive my ignorance, but... Kat, why is it so important to you and others to have the "big change" done? How is being a "woman in a man's body" (I hope that's not an offensive way to say it) different from simply being a feminine male?

When you're a feminine male, you still want to be a male. Feminine males are perfectly happy with their male bodies, while a "woman in a man's body", as you put it, is not happy with their male body. Please ask more if that didn't clear it up, and don't worry about using an offensive term, I'll kindly let you know if you do. :)

I would like to point out, however, that if an offensive term is used for the express purpose of being offensive, I won't take too kindly to it. I think that's fair enough.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I think considering this is an open topic about sexuality...

This is the first time that this was referred to as sexuality. I feel the need to point out that this has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality in the least, and that it's an extremely common misconception to say that it does. Sexuality is who you're attracted to. What this deals with is gender identity.

E Jenkins wrote:
...she is the way she is, she likes the way she is, and that's that.

I would like to point out that I in no way like the way I am. It causes me so much pain (the gender dissonance I talked about) that I honestly would take a life where I was just born a girl over the life I have now. However, I am proud of the way I am. I'm proud that I have the guts to say it to an entire forum (albeit semi-anonymously). I'm proud that I won't change because of what other people say. I'm proud that I've worked through the pain and not given up on life, like almost half of transgendered people do. I think that those are good things to be proud of. :)

rline wrote:
So why does she need to come out?

I mean, I don't think there's anything massively majorly wrong with me, I am the way i am, I like the way I am and that's that. But I didn't start a thread telling everyone else.

Because you're happy with the way you are. I feel discomfort every time I'm referred to with male pronouns. I'm unhappy being thought of as a boy. I wanted to change my view of people, so I came out. I think that's fair, but I'm happy to discuss more if you feel otherwise. :)

Near wrote:
Do you not know that in order to get hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery, that you have to seek counseling first? (For the sake of argument, I will assume that Katniss is considering one or both of those options)

If Katniss does decide to seek counseling, lets hope that she gets it from someone who actually understands the issue, and not someone who wants to dissuade her for their own selfish reasons.

I am considering both, though I would like to point out that it's Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS). Gender is your mental view, while sex is your physical "view". And the therapist I see has been working with transgendered people for a decade or two, and 99% of her patients are transgendered, so you don't have to worry about that. :)

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Selfish? What? Dissuade? If you see someone going down a bad path (drugs, alcohol, sex, what have you) don't you feel the need to intervene?

To be honest, this comment kind of frustrated me, but I'm going to try to find the most respectful way to respond. While you may see the path I'm taking as a bad path, others may not. Drugs, alcohol, and sex all have nasty repercussions (health declining, STD's, etc.), while transitioning only leads to happiness for me, which I don't think is a nasty repercussion. The first day I pass as a girl in person is likely going to be the happiest day of my life, to be honest. I find it slightly unfair to call the path to happiness for me a "bad path".

EMarx wrote:
Wanna be treated like a woman, do ya?

Image

Get to work! You too, Rox!

:D (Just kidding.)
(edited for space)
It was nice to see a bit of comic relief, especially after having spent two hours commenting on everything I felt the need to comment on. Thanks for this! :lol:
P.S. I want to be a girl, not a woman. "Girl" is a more pleasing word for me to see at this point. Not criticizing, just expressing my preference. :)

Sandy wrote:
When there is a misalignment between one's sexual identity and one's biological gender, the desire to resolve the misalignment must feel great indeed. To put it simplistically, this misalignment can be resolved in one of two ways: modify the body to match the sexual identity, or modify the sexual identity to match the body. Both biology and psychology are sufficiently advanced to assist the willing participant in accomplishing either task, although these days, it seems that the cultural trend is to choose to modify the body not the mind. It is understandable why Katniss would make this choice.

Even though I already addressed this, I feel the need to revisit it. Psychology is only sufficient enough to help transgendered people cope with how they feel, not change their minds. Like I said in my last post, most transgendered people who tried that route committed suicide due to the immense mental conflicts. As a result, the "cultural trend" developed to favor the successful method.
Although I left out the rest of your post to save space, I would like to comment on it as well. While I see you trying to compare your process of changing your view to me being transgendered, the two really aren't very related, as happiness in your marriage is completely unrelated to happiness in your own body. I've tried to make myself happy as a boy, believe me, but nothing I've tried works, and you can try a lot of things in six years.
At this point, I've "resigned" (for lack of a better word) to the fact that this isn't going to change, and honestly, I'm not entirely disappointed. While it would be very nice to not have any gender dissonance, I'd miss out on all of the happy moments that I'll get during my transition: coming out IRL, going to school as a girl for the first time, starting hormones, getting SRS, etc. Most people won't have as happy moments as those, and I'll be one of the few girls who doesn't take her female-ness for granted. Those are the things that help me get through the pain. Hope is an amazing thing, and a thing I didn't have until I met my transgendered friends, to be quite honest.





I did my absolute best to reply to everything that I felt needed replying to, but I'm sure I missed some things. Let me know if you still have questions/comments that still need answering/responding to. Honestly, having to respond to all of this feedback all at once was very overwhelming for me, so I'll get to all of the "Thank you"s tomorrow. So don't worry, I haven't forgotten about any of you. Also, I may not have responded to everything, but I read every word, positive and negative.

Moderators/Admins, I realize this is a really long post, and if you see things that could be trimmed down, don't hesitate to PM me and I'll make any and all adjustments (as long as I agree with them and you don't require me to).

Sandy, thank you for changing my username to Katniss. It is very much appreciated. :D
Edit: Just found out that it was actually Dave. Thanks Dave! :D

Again, I'd like to thank each and every one of you for either supporting me or making me stronger by commenting. It means a lot that you took the time to comment, whether it be a supportive comment or an unsupportive one.

I'd like to close off by saying two things:
1. If I offended you in any way, please calmly let me know and I will either change or clarify what I said (although I won't change my opinion on anything; merely my presentation).
2. Please try to keep the rest of the discussion respectful. Even if you support me, disrespectfulness gets nobody anywhere.

Thank you all again.

~Katniss

P.S. I mentioned in the original post that I "always identify as a girl on everything". This is speaking strictly about online things. In real life, I identify as my physical self, more because I'm "forced" to by social standards than anything else (though I may be going to school as a girl next year, I have my fingers crossed). I'll be editing the post to clarify this.

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Selling White Dino Star
Tony Fisher wrote:
By midnight Rox will have revealed all her secrets, told everyone that she loves us and end up banning herself tomorrow when she reads it all back.

Transsexual and Proud!


Last edited by Katniss on Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:25 am 
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Katniss, just thinking: does this mean we can now expect you to be really short-tempered, emotional and unreasonable for a few days each month? :lol:

PS. Hope your exams went well.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:41 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
Katniss, just thinking: does this mean we can now expect you to be really short-tempered, emotional and unreasonable for a few days each month? :lol:

PS. Hope your exams went well.

Sadly, it doesn't work like that, though I can set reminders on my iPhone to tell me to do so if you'd like. :lol:

Exams went fairly well. The only one I know about for sure is English, which I (sadly) got a B in, so I ended up with a B for the semester. I'm not all too happy about that, but whatever, there's nothing I can do now.

~Katniss

_________________
Selling White Dino Star
Tony Fisher wrote:
By midnight Rox will have revealed all her secrets, told everyone that she loves us and end up banning herself tomorrow when she reads it all back.

Transsexual and Proud!


Last edited by Katniss on Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:32 am 
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Thank you for the reply, Kat. I am also a perfectionist, so the fact that it's not yet possible to truly change from one gender to the other, 100%, makes me think it would not be worth it to me (if I were not cis). So as a result I wonder why other people would want it. I forget sometimes that most people probably don't think like me. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Jared wrote:
Thank you for the reply, Kat. I am also a perfectionist, so the fact that it's not yet possible to truly change from one gender to the other, 100%, makes me think it would not be worth it to me (if I were not cis). So as a result I wonder why other people would want it. I forget sometimes that most people probably don't think like me. :lol:

You may not be able to change 100%, but you can get pretty darn close. With hormones and SRS and voice training etc., you can get to be completely female except for the reproductive system, which I'd say is pretty darn close.

Speaking of SRS, let it be said that MtF transsexuals don't do it because they want to; they do it becase they need to for their sanity. The surgery is extremely painful, and even with a ton of painkillers, most girls find themselves in so much pain that they can't sleep for an entire 24 hours. It's something that we only do if we absolutely have to.

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Selling White Dino Star
Tony Fisher wrote:
By midnight Rox will have revealed all her secrets, told everyone that she loves us and end up banning herself tomorrow when she reads it all back.

Transsexual and Proud!


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 Post subject: Re: Coming Out
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:19 pm 
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I wish you all the luck in the world, girl. Times one million.

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