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 Post subject: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:04 am 
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Hi,

I see no sticky item or such in the forum, where I can find a definition of when a puzzle is considered 'twisty' and when not.
Does it implicitely mean that there are 2 or more axis of (full/ 360 degrees of) rotation/turning?

Please provide me "the" or your definition of 'twisty'.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:04 am 
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A puzzle that twists.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:08 am 
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Luke wrote:
A puzzle that twists.


GREAT! :lol: And when does it twist?

In the normal use of language I only know of 'a gift with a twist (= some unexpected extra) to it'. Is this similar for a puzzle?


It'll probably also help if you can provide the exact Dutch translation of it. "Draai" maybe?

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:21 am 
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http://www.wordreference.com/ende/twist

(rotate) drehen.

(I have no idea at all of German)

What do you think that the Beatles meant with "twist and shout"? :mrgreen:

EDIT: epic fail for me, I got wrong Dutch -> Deutch :oops: The point is, to twist = to turn / rotate


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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:27 am 
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From the info I have now the puzzles here could also be called 'turning puzzles' or 'rotating puzzles' instead?

Then the 'definition' would be that a 'twisty/turning/rotating puzzle' has a turning axis? Correct?
Does it matter whether with such axis a full turn can be made or not? (360 degrees)


PS Cisco; 'drehen' (German) = 'draaien' (Dutch).

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:53 am 
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My definition would be a object that can be changed either in color or shape by rotating parts around a central core and can then be restored to it's starting position by a certain set of moves.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:54 am 
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A 3-dimensional puzzle wherein similar elements are exchanged and re-combined with each other by rotating groups of elements about alternative axes?

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:02 am 
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Splinter wrote:
Does it implicitely mean that there are 2 or more axis of (full/ 360 degrees of) rotation/turning?
No... here is a nice twisty puzzle with just 1 axis of rotation.

Geared 1x1x4 by OSKAR

Nor do you need 360 degrees of rotation,

Tom's Constrained Cube

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:15 am 
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Thanks for all replies so far.

Is scrambling (and returning to the original state) an essential part for a puzzle to be called 'twisty puzzle'?

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:18 am 
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Kind of, but not always. The Qubami puzzle doesn't have an 'original' state. I think the only condition of a twisty puzzle is one where a set of pieces can be twisted, resulting in a new permutation/orientation/both of the state of the puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:26 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
A 3-dimensional puzzle wherein similar elements are exchanged and re-combined with each other by rotating groups of elements about alternative axes?
I believe we've had several 2D twisty puzzles presented here so I wouldn't say being 3D is a requirement. I'd also consider the apps that let you play with 4D and higher puzzles as Twisty puzzles too. And as I stated above you don't need multiple axes, its possible to just have one.

Before I was on TwistyPuzzles I called them Combinatorial Puzzles or Group Theory Puzzles and they've always been hard to define and clasify. Typically when you think you have a good definition someone like Oskar or Bram finds a way to break it. But I think I'd just say a Twisty Puzzle is a puzzle which can be scrambled and solved through a series of twists and/or slides which move pieces of the puzzle around in groups (Group can mean 1 or more pieces). Note the slice layer on a 3x3x3 could be considered to me made of pieces which slide around the equator. Oskar has even designed one which works just that way, see his HandiCube. However if the puzzle JUST contains pieces which slide I'm not sure if this group would consider it a Twisty Puzzle. What about something like Peter's Black Hole? If this isn't considered a TwistyPuzzle it certainly seems possible to blur the distinction between this and TwistyPuzzles to an almost arbitrary degree. What about Alex Black Hole? That puzzle does make use of "rotation"?

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:23 am 
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If rotation is the key feature of a twisty puzzle, then the babylon tower and missing link would be twisy. But are they also moving bead/tile?

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:42 am 
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It seems to me that one of the features of a twisty puzzle is that it is just 1 object, with no loose parts, compared to put-together and take-apart puzzles that consists out of several parts. Twisty puzzle are mostly made of parts that are being hold together, these parts can move in several ways.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:07 pm 
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A puzzle with multiple identically shaped pieces whose positions can be permuted, where you scramble the puzzle by putting the pieces into different positions, and the goal is to unscramble it. Also known as 'doctrinaire' twisty puzzles, because it's such a strict definition, but it also includes a lot of very different-looking things than the Rubik's cube.


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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:49 pm 
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An integrated puzzle that permutes by rotating alternative groups of elements in sequence.

Simple. :D

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Last edited by KelvinS on Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Category 5.4 of the Slocum mechanical puzzles classification.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:24 pm 
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I generally like Bram's definitions but I feel this one has a few holes...
Bram wrote:
A puzzle with multiple identically shaped pieces....
There is no such requirement. Are there any two pieces the same shape on a Golden Cube? If there are, I can easy make a shape mod of a 3x3x3 where each piece has a unique shape and I'd still consider it a Twisty puzzle.
Bram wrote:
whose positions can be permuted, where you scramble the puzzle by putting the pieces into different positions, and the goal is to unscramble it.
So using this definition Peter's Black Hole is a Twisty puzzle. Correct? I'm honestly not sure if that should be included or not. Same goes for the 15 Puzzle. A part of me has a hard time seeing these are Twisty because at no time is anything ever twisted or rotated.
Bram wrote:
Also known as 'doctrinaire' twisty puzzles, because it's such a strict definition, but it also includes a lot of very different-looking things than the Rubik's cube.
A puzzle doesn't need to be a 'doctrinaire' twisty puzzles to be a twisty puzzle. What about all the puzzles which jumble? I still consider them Twisty puzzles.

To me the hardest part of this question is where to draw the line between Twisty and Slidey puzzles. For example the 15 Puzzle just has pieces sliding in a track BUT if that keeps it from being a Twisty puzzle what about my Doctor Cube or Doctor Skewb? I presented both here as Twisty puzzles but if you get right down to it both just have pieces sliding in tracks about the equator of a sphere. Both puzzles could be made with marbles rolling in tracks cut on the surface of a sphere and you'd only lose some piece orietation information. If the Doctor Cube is Twisty because the tracks are curved around a sphere then I guess I can turn a 15 Puzzle into a Twisty puzzle by wrapping it around a cylinder. So is this a Twisty puzzle?



It doesn't have an entry in the Museum here at TwistyPuzzles.com so I'm guessing the general consensus is that its not. Yet if its not I'm honestly not sure why my Doctor Cube would be considered a Twisty puzzle.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Carl, I think you'll find my revised definition above addresses all of these issues, e.g., slidey puzzles are not twisty puzzles because they don't permute by rotating alternative groups of elements in sequence.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:08 am 
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Oskar wrote:


This mechanical puzzle overview is very nice.
But I think category 5.4 -- '5.4 Rotating cube puzzles (3D-Rubik’s cube, etc.)' -- is very limited. Category 5.4 would be twisty puzzles, but not all twisty puzzles would be category 5.4 (e.g. Golden Egg; which is not a cube).

A short conclusion from the above from my side:
- rotation axis is a key element to call a puzzle twisty (in line with category 5.4)
- scrambling (and returning to original state) is also an element seen as necessary (solving -often- can be done by following a routine)
- parts are fixed around the turning axes (no sliding tiles/ loose parts) is also often seen as necessary

So, probably I present to you in (+/-) 2 months a puzzle that's not twisty but has a twist to it ;-)
Thanks for helping me understand your classifications / considerations.

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:18 am 
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So far I have read this thread with great interest but couldn't think af anything worth to post. Now I have only a minor correction to mention:
wwwmwww wrote:
So is this a Twisty puzzle?

It doesn't have an entry in the Museum here at TwistyPuzzles.com
It has:
http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/puzzle.cgi?pkey=661

BTW: Nobody should use the museum here as reference to decide what is twisty and what not. That has never been an intention behing the museum and the sections "Puzzle related", "Electronic" and "Games" proove that.


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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:52 am 
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Just today I received a message from the 'Startpagina network' (Dutch; I'm member. See my signature) that they had released a page about twisties. So, I thought 'hey, they have a page now about Twisty puzzles'.

Well, you can have a good laugh, because these are twisties (also):

VIDEO

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What's "the" or your definition of 'Twisty' ?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:34 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Bram wrote:
A puzzle with multiple identically shaped pieces....
There is no such requirement. Are there any two pieces the same shape on a Golden Cube?


Things with purely cosmetic differing shapes are referred to as 'shape mods', and qualify as well, but under a special exemption because they aren't quite doctrinaire.

wwwmwww wrote:
What about all the puzzles which jumble? I still consider them Twisty puzzles.


Jumbleable puzzles can still have their pieces permuted. A jumble puzzle which could only be returned to the original position in a single way would be an interesting case, it isn't known if such a beast exists.

wwwmwww wrote:
To me the hardest part of this question is where to draw the line between Twisty and Slidey puzzles.


Slidey puzzles are twisty.


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