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 Post subject: Big chop?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:13 pm 
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So, I was wondering if I could get some more info on the Big Chop. Heres what I could find:
Ryan Binters Big Chop Animation
Oskar's Big Chop Video
Oskar's Big Chop
Eric Vergo designing the Big Chop
Andreas' Museum Article on Oskar's Big Chop
Andreas' Museum Article on Oskar's Big Chop transformed into a tetrahedron
Andreas' Museum Article on Oskar's Big Chop transformed into a tridiminished icosahedron.
Carl's entry on A Type-â…¡Edge-Turning Multidodecahedron

I also had a chat on TomZ's chat room with Brandon and Daniel but I accidentally closed the chat :(

Any info in general would be helpful.
Thanks
RW031

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Last edited by Doug Roth on Thu May 24, 2012 8:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Didn't look at all of your links, but as far as I know no one has a mechanism that would be both stable and possible to print with current 3d printing technology. The only current physical model is Oskar's magnet one. Most likely, that will be the only way of making one that isn't gigantic. I feel like with some refining to the mechanism someone could actually produce a version with better turning than his.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:07 pm 
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Kapusta wrote:
Didn't look at all of your links, but as far as I know no one has a mechanism that would be both stable and possible to print with current 3d printing technology. The only current physical model is Oskar's magnet one. Most likely, that will be the only way of making one that isn't gigantic. I feel like with some refining to the mechanism someone could actually produce a version with better turning than his.

Why isn't it "possible to print with the current 3d printing technology"?

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:24 pm 
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I don't think it's possible to make a satisfactorily turning Big Chop with a shells mechanism, even with infinite precision 3D printing.

There are too many parts that meet at points. They'd be just as likely to slip the wrong direction, rotation in place, or catch on each other as they would be likely to work correctly.

Imagine trying to push a 1000 car train entirely from behind. Even under ideal conditions you'll get buckling and not a working train.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:08 pm 
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So... It is an unrealistic possibility? It will never happen?

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 4:50 pm 
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Like Eric said, the only known way to implement this puzzle with a "proper" mechanism is using the shells design, and in order to keep the internal parts big enough to be 3D printed (or even injection moulded) is to make the overall dimensions of the puzzle huge.

And even then, due to internal alignment problems with all of the pieces, it would probably turn horribly.

This puzzle will never be made, will it Claus?

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:11 pm 
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Gus wrote:
Like Eric said, the only known way to implement this puzzle with a "proper" mechanism is using the shells design
"Known" being the key word in this sentence to me.
Gus wrote:
This puzzle will never be made, will it Claus?
It wasn't that long ago the 7x7x7 was impossible so never say never.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:55 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Gus wrote:
Like Eric said, the only known way to implement this puzzle with a "proper" mechanism is using the shells design
"Known" being the key word in this sentence to me.
Agreed, of course some new method may be just around the corner, making the design of such puzzles trivial. Is this a hint? :shock:
Gus wrote:
This puzzle will never be made, will it Claus?
wwwmwww wrote:
It wasn't that long ago the 7x7x7 was impossible so never say never.
Or the 11x11x11. But not many people can sponsor such a project, which was my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Gus wrote:
Is this a hint?
Sadly no... I'm not working on anything that big. But I think I'd be very surprised if I didn't see a "proper" implementation of the the Big Chop in my lifetime. The boom in new puzzle ideas seems to be growing exponentially with no signs of letting up so something new could come up at almost any time. Who knows... in 20 years puzzles in injection plastic may be old school. By then someone may have a holographic projector which allows you to manipulate the projection with your hands and you could have every twisty puzzle ever made saved on your USB drive. I like to dream big...

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:56 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Gus wrote:
Is this a hint?
... in 20 years puzzles in injection plastic may be old school. By then someone may have a holographic projector which allows you to manipulate the projection with your hands and you could have every twisty puzzle ever made saved on your USB drive. I like to dream big...
Nah, that's too poncy, like Tome Cruise in Minority Report. I'm an engineer, I want to hold the real puzzle in my real hands, so just buckle down and get on with it :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Do you think that a "benefit" if you will could be organized to sponsor such a project? Oskar or Greg or even Carl could help design a new one with a shells mech... I'm sure Claus would be happy to help sponsor, and with the abilities we have (in the way of 3-D designers), I think, if someone really wanted it to happen, it could happen. Just look at Gus' signature :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Eric is one of the top designers, and he will sure make it given a feasible chance of it working. With the shells mechanism at the moment, the puzzle would have to be stupidly massive and expensive before it will even begin to turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:20 pm 
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One possibility, that hasn't been mentioned yet is a puzzle with at least one shell of metal pieces. Since I doubt metal and plastick can go together really well, especially since the metal parts can't have large fillets, making them sharp edged, a whole metal big chop would be a possiblity. I don't say that would be more practical than a huge puzzle. Having one that is "only" huge and not HUGE but weighing 10 pounds isn't practical either.
However metal could be machined to a much higher precision and durability. I think it could lead to a practically turning puzzle. Except the weight. Even if light alloys or so were used.

I had another idea though. Is it theoretically possible to make a Big chop with a mechanism like Jason's first Pentultimate? http://www.puzzleforge.com/main/index.p ... mitstart=1
The Pentultimate has 12 levels for the 12 centers and each center has tabs at one level.
I wouldn't know how to define which pieces on the Big chop get tabs and which resemble corners, nor how many layers the puzzle would need. Maybe there is a symmetrical way to define a layout that works?

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:48 pm 
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alaskajoe wrote:
I had another idea though. Is it theoretically possible to make a Big chop with a mechanism like Jason's first Pentultimate? http://www.puzzleforge.com/main/index.p ... mitstart=1


I *believe* basically any twisty puzzle can be constructed using Jason's knucklehead mechanism. The drawbacks, of course, are horrible turning and huge size. I think it would be pretty impractical for a puzzle that probably would probably turn on par with Oskar's magnet version.

I thought about this a little more since my last comment and I think that a physical Big Chop might be possible, but not with shells. (I don't have a mechanism or anything.) I think the first step in getting a mechanical prototype would be finding a structure with less pieces than the shells mechanism and testing it on something already known to work well with shells (i.e the Little Chop).

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Kapusta wrote:
I think the first step in getting a mechanical prototype would be finding a structure with less pieces than the shells mechanism and testing it on something already known to work well with shells (i.e the Little Chop).


I'll get right on that 8-) :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:40 am 
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Gus wrote:
Nah, that's too poncy, like Tome Cruise in Minority Report.
A strange coincidence ...

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:04 am 
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Gus wrote:
I'm an engineer, I want to hold the real puzzle in my real hands, so just buckle down and get on with it :lol:
I'm an engineer too so I understand the feeling. What got me into twisty puzzles was the mech behind the 3x3x3 years ago. No one could understand what held it together until they took it apart and then it looked so simple. Had the holographic 3x3x3's come along before the real ones I wonder if they would have been as big a hit?

Anyways this thread is starting to remind me of this one:
Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
Even the last line of that thread...
Bram wrote:
... is by far the most plausible approach to the Big Chop anyone has suggested to date.
Has Bram talking about the Big Chop.

So has anyone attempted to apply the Sand/Dovetail/Staple mech to the Big Chop yet? I'm aware Eric Vergo took a shot with the shells mech and you can see pictures of that here.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:40 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
So has anyone attempted to apply the ... Staple mech to the Big Chop yet?
No. Bram asked me, but I am convinced that it won't work. Bram proposes to use gears to keep the staples in position, but I expect that the gears will be getting chopped up in the jumbling.

Oskar

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:50 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
So has anyone attempted to apply the Sand/Dovetail/Staple mech to the Big Chop yet?


I don't think that a sand/dovetail/staple mech has any higher chance of providing a realizable design over the shells mech.

Here's why:

If you compare at the master layer of the shells mech and dovetail mech, they are actually very similar. Sure, they rely on different strategies to hold parts in, but what I'm referring to is the fact they are both inherently bound to the geometry of the puzzle. Pictured below is a simple 2d analogy of what I'm talking about. Both mechanisms end up with 5 fold symmetry, and as a result, the analogous parts are created. The size of the rectangles in the picture is irrelevant. As stated in my "theoretical design" post, the crux of the problem is the 10 very small parts. Utilizing the dovetail mech would not eliminate this problem.

Moreover, I don't think (I may be wrong) anyone has provided a reasonable solution to the alignment issues brought about by using the dovetail mech. Bram suggested some gearing system, but I think that implementing that is highly implausible; I don't actually think it would work.


A possible solution:

What has not been discussed yet is the option of skipping these small parts. Greg had success with his miniature starminx III, so it may be a viable option, although I have my doubts. Skipping parts here seems much more risky in this case, because it seems like the propensity of parts to slide around is much higher. If a gun were held to my head and I was told "make a functional big chop" this is the method I would use. That being said, I probably wouldn't attempt making one in any other circumstance.


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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Oskar wrote:
No. Bram asked me, but I am convinced that it won't work. Bram proposes to use gears to keep the staples in position, but I expect that the gears will be getting chopped up in the jumbling.


But what if you just don't worry about the jumbling aspect?


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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:20 pm 
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gingervergo wrote:
A possible solution:

What has not been discussed yet is the option of skipping these small parts. Greg had success with his miniature starminx III, so it may be a viable option, although I have my doubts. Skipping parts here seems much more risky in this case, because it seems like the propensity of parts to slide around is much higher.
I'd consider this fudging and if one wants to make a Big Chop (not a Master Big Chop) I would think you could leave out the smallest pieces and replace the center piece with a circle. That should still keep all the other pieces tight and allow you to avoid too much extra sliding around. What I'm not sure about is how to keep the non-surface pieces in alignment with the rest of the puzzle. Bram makes this comment in the other thread:
Bram wrote:
While the Pentultimate V2 does use staples, the mechanism it has for keeping the central bands aligned is very novel and interesting...
and I know I've asked before but at the moment I can't recall... has the Pentultimate V2 mechanism been made public? If I haven't already seen it (something tells me I have) I'd like to see this "novel and interesting" mechanism.

To be honest, before we see a proper Big Chop I'd expect to see more Chopasaurus puzzles being made as a potential way to test new mechanisms. At the moment I believe there has only been one Chopasaurus made so I think a good first step for any potential Big Chop designer would be to first design a stable, more afordable, Chopasaurus.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:07 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
gingervergo wrote:
A possible solution:

What has not been discussed yet is the option of skipping these small parts. Greg had success with his miniature starminx III, so it may be a viable option, although I have my doubts. Skipping parts here seems much more risky in this case, because it seems like the propensity of parts to slide around is much higher.
I'd consider this fudging and if one wants to make a Big Chop (not a Master Big Chop) I would think you could leave out the smallest pieces and replace the center piece with a circle. That should still keep all the other pieces tight and allow you to avoid too much extra sliding around. What I'm not sure about is how to keep the non-surface pieces in alignment with the rest of the puzzle. Bram makes this comment in the other thread:
Bram wrote:
While the Pentultimate V2 does use staples, the mechanism it has for keeping the central bands aligned is very novel and interesting...
and I know I've asked before but at the moment I can't recall... has the Pentultimate V2 mechanism been made public? If I haven't already seen it (something tells me I have) I'd like to see this "novel and interesting" mechanism.

To be honest, before we see a proper Big Chop I'd expect to see more Chopasaurus puzzles being made as a potential way to test new mechanisms. At the moment I believe there has only been one Chopasaurus made so I think a good first step for any potential Big Chop designer would be to first design a stable, more afordable, Chopasaurus.

Carl


The Chopasaurus isn't as deep cut as the Big Chop, correct? So it would just be a training exercise?
And while we are on this, just how deep IS the Big Chop? Is it SKEWB deep (deepest)?

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:26 pm 
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It is deep as in it has two layers per axis. So deep cut puzzles include the Big Chop, Chopasaurus, Pentultimate, 2x2x2, Skewb, and Little Chop, as the regular geometries.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:28 pm 
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rubixwiz031 wrote:
The Chopasaurus isn't as deep cut as the Big Chop, correct? So it would just be a training exercise?
And while we are on this, just how deep IS the Big Chop? Is it SKEWB deep (deepest)?


All deep cut puzzles are the same depth.
It's like the old joke: How far can you walk into a forest? Halfway (after that you're walking out).


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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:16 pm 
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Luke wrote:
It is deep as in it has two layers per axis. So deep cut puzzles include the Big Chop, Chopasaurus, Pentultimate, 2x2x2, Skewb, and Little Chop, as the regular geometries.


Okay. And when you say that the 3-D printed version (with or without shells) will be big, just how big are we talking?

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:30 pm 
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All deep cut puzzles are by definition of the same cut depth, but what makes the Big Chop the "hardest" to implement of the six "Classical" deep-cut puzzles is that it has the greatest number of cutting planes/axes of rotation.

To compare:
2*2*2: 3
Skewb: 4
Little Chop: 6
Penultimate: 6
Chopasaurus: 10
Big Chop: 15

Hybrids:
2*2*2 + Skewb: 7
2*2*2 + Little Chop: 9
Skewb + Little Chop: 10
2*2*2 + Skewb + Little Chop: 13
Penultimate + Chopasaurus: 16
Penultimate + Big Chop: 21
Chopasaurus + Big Chop: 25
Penultimate + Chopasaurus + Big Chop: 31

Something else I think worth noting:
The Skewb is a subset of the Chopasaurus. In other words, a Chopasaurus can be bandaged into a Skewb Ultimate.
The 2*2*2 is a subset of the Big Chop. In fact, the Big Chop would be the convex hull of the Compound of Five 2*2*2 Cubes.

As for Mechanisms, is the following correct?:

Shell Mechanism:
1. Start with the shallowest puzzle with a given geometry(I.e. face-turning cube or edge-turning dodecahedron). Its parts lock directly into the core.
2. Make the outer surface spherical.
3. Build the next deeper cut member of the same geometry, locking its pieces into the previous shell.
4. Repeat 2 and 3 until you reach the desired puzzle.
5. Fuse any part that are in contact, but never move independently of each other.
Its strength is that nearly any puzzle can be constructed with this method in theory. The main downside is that both piece count and physical grow exponentially with the number of shells.

Knucklehead Mechanism:
1. Divide the solid into piece along the cut planes.
2. Count the number of centers of rotation.
3. For each center of rotation, cut a groove around the internal part of each piece.
4. On the centers of rotation, add tabs that will ride in the grooves, giving each center a unique level for the tabs.
5. Reassemble the solid.
Main strength is that there are few, if any, internal parts. I hear that turning is inherently poor, though I do not understand the reason why.

Also, how does the knucklehead mechanism account for split centers? Best I can tell, the centers of rotation on the Big Chop is right in the middle of four edge pieces. Though, I am thinking a Knucklehead Big Chop would have 30 layers of grooves, and if you made the both the groves, and the spacing between them 2 mm, that would give a total in-radius of 12 cm. Would the Shell Mechanism be even larger to keep the smallest pieces on a scale that is workable with current 3D print technology?

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:34 pm 
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The knucklehead mech needs a layer for each piece, or at least enough layers such that all pieces are held in by surrounding pieces. It is not based on the number centers of rotation. On the pentultimate, this was 12 because there are 12 centers, each with their own layer taken up by its own tabs, and then the corners are held in by the tabs of the centers. On the big chop, this would mean 120 layers - one for each piece. Now that I think about it, though, wouldn't it be possible with just 60 layers? The triangle pieces are chiral, and so you could just have one layer for every other piece because every triangle piece is bordered by three mirrored triangle pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: Big chop?
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:03 am 
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Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
Shell Mechanism:
1. Start with the shallowest puzzle with a given geometry(I.e. face-turning cube or edge-turning dodecahedron). Its parts lock directly into the core.
2. Make the outer surface spherical.
3. Build the next deeper cut member of the same geometry, locking its pieces into the previous shell.
4. Repeat 2 and 3 until you reach the desired puzzle.
Not quite correct... see this thread.
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15560

There are 42 puzzles which are a member of the Order=2 Edge Turning Dodecahedron family. ETD0.5 and ETD1.0 I'm counting as just one puzzle. Still you don't need any where near 42 shells inside a BigChop. I believe you could get away with as few as 6 shells. One for each of the puzzles pictured in this post.
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=189490#p189490

However I can certainly see why one might want to add more shells to this puzzle. Look at Eric's Master Starminx for example. There he added in extra shells and sort of combined the traditional shell mech with Oskar's floating-anchor mech and I think it did wonders for the turning quality of the final puzzle. Please watch the video Eric posted the link to here.
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=278227#p278227

Carl

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