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 Post subject: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:03 am 
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I found this puzzle in a puzzle e-shop

more info? inventor ....?

[image removed because of KO site watermark]

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:17 am 
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It's Traiphum's:

http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/puzzle.cgi?pkey=2378

Is someone knocking him off with an ugly?

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:25 am 
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Intesting, Im hoping that maybe it's being mass produced and they put in in their shop early?


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:49 am 
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Its only $20 on that site, and it says they will be in stock soon.


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:16 am 
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Noreg89 wrote:
Its only $20 on that site, and it says they will be in stock soon.


Oh my, I have to spend my money again

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:22 am 
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Uiqoo wrote:
Noreg89 wrote:
Its only $20 on that site, and it says they will be in stock soon.


Oh my, I have to spend my money again

Sounds like a good deal, so long as it doesn't turn out to be another Petamix type site. :?

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:50 am 
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Why don't we wait and see what Traiphum has to say, it reminds me of a Magic Butterfly. Possibly Uwe may be able to rebrand it with some credit?

Traiphum has also been selling some versions of his puzzles in batches very cheaply lately, it's possible that he may want to do a version of this for a good price.. if so you may be able to get a piece of art for just a few bucks more (and give credit to the designer).

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:18 am 
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The page is a serious one, not a Petamix type.

I won't be posting the name though, until Traiphum's will speak up and we will make sure this was made with his permission (manufacturer is also well known).

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:53 pm 
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Should I feel depresed that the site I found is now the one to compare to whenever anyone thinks a site is fake?

I do hope traiphum gave this maker his permission. I would love to own one of these.

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Obviously the same KO company always. I have nothing against it unless Traiphum doesn't get royalties.

Also, the website name is visible on your picture, so you may want to make it blurry.
They don't offer paypal, too so it's pretty bad :P

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:19 pm 
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The website says it's a [removed] so I would be surprised if the asked anyone for permission or are paying royalties.


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:40 pm 
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It's a KO one. I don't think that company will ask for permission for mass producing......


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Seem like good news and sad news come together today.
good news : I just checked the last one result of exam"s"(satisfactory). Yes!! I just have graduation.
sad news I : gear mastermorphix is going mass produce by???
thought this puzzles not same shape as my, I am sure it come out of my concept.
I am confirm " never anybody/company contact me for this mass produce "
sad news II : I just sold gear mastermorphix to my puzzles friend last week, but not $20.
and other reserved, so I just bought new gear cubes for make them. :?:

Edit : I just know they designed before my release, sorry
and my gear cube is over in my stock :mrgreen:

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Last edited by traiphum on Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:17 am 
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RubixFreakGreg wrote:
I have nothing against it unless Traiphum doesn't get royalties.
KO question...

Even if Traiphum got royalties (which he is't) wouldn't this still be considered a KO? Its using the mech of Oskar's Gear Cube so I would think he should get a piece of the pie as well. Note if Traiphum sells them I view it as ok as he makes them from a Gear Cube which he has purchased so Oskar is getting a cut.

Not wishing to start an argument. Just curious how the sites KO policy would be applied to this puzzle.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:56 am 
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Carl, that's kinda my opinion too.

Traphium was the first who had made a Mastermorphix (that he did not invented) from a Gear Cube (that he did not invented). In my own opinion it is an obvious transformation, as long as we know how a Mastermorphix is made from a 3x3x3, and we do have the knowledge of that. I don't think one can make an ownership claim on this now.

That being said, Traphium's work is very valuable. His craftsmanship is what I value the most, and he was the first to manually transform a known and familiar Gear Cube into a known and familiar Mastermorphix, but with a new twist (wordplay, yes).

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Aleksey, my thoughts exactly. But where can we put a limit to novelty? It all depends on how advanced you are. If a cave man came up with this stuff it would be very impressive but this is not the case.

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:36 pm 
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I think Traiphum has made a substantial difference to the puzzle (more than a trivial truncation), to make a new puzzle. I think the precedent for this is Tony Fisher's `Fisher Cube` (should Tony Fisher begin crediting Rubiks for his modifications?). Maybe we are loosing sight of the fact (in the 3D printing CAD world) that it takes considerable inventiveness and creativeness to make a modification like this.

The legitimate question is probably: how much is a `substantial difference` that creates a new puzzle?

I don't think it's all about money, I think it's about recognition and respect too. Traiphum should recieve credit for this, it's an obvious copy, but it's an honesty box system in which the only way that is going to happen is if somebody takes up his cause and puts a sticker on the cube and sells it for a few bucks more and he gets a cut, like with the Curvy Copter.

Yes, there is an art to Traiphum's work, but that art is is so good that it appears to overshadow the concept, when clearly there is `both`.

Cheers,
Burgo.

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PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:40 am 
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I suppose I will start by saying the job of applying the site policy is never easy, it seems.

Let's consider a few points:

1.) The Gear Cube design is clearly Oskar's design, although let's not forget Bram Cohen's concept. Shape moding it from an existing puzzle is one thing (and fine), but copying that design from scratch gets us into the area of using others work.

2.) To get to a picture of an injection molded product, when must they have started? Is it reasonable to consider this may have been independent design? Clearly they took the outer shape from the existing 3x3x3 mastermorphix, not the hand built ones.
However much I love Traiphum's work (and I *really* do) this particular mod does somewhat fall under somewhat forseeable lines, perhaps like "my" Square-2.

I would be more likely to call this KO as a result of #1 depending on the actual internal shapes. But one can reasonably conclude from the outer shapes it is a pretty close copy of Oskar's work. Understanding the timing of things would be a part of knowing if #2 is a factor as well.

We certainly want to support our builders here, but prefer to make our judgments on the best first hand knowledge. So if/when more information comes out about this puzzle (facts, pictures, etc.) please PM it to me or Roxanne and we'll much appreciate it.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:03 pm 
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On the [removed] they have it in stock, and one of the comments says this
"Be noted that the [removed, KO] gear mastermorphix is not a KO.
[removed] has the patent in China and design it before traiphum.
See below,
Patent Number : 201130230461.5
Application Date : 19 July 2011"


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Aether13 wrote:
On the [removed] they have it in stock, and one of the comments says this
"Be noted that the [removed, KO] gear mastermorphix is not a KO.
[removed] has the patent in China and design it before traiphum.
See below,
Patent Number : 201130230461.5
Application Date : 19 July 2011"

Interesting. Looks like Traiphum's GearMastermorphix was released Oct. 30, 2011. But I still have concerns about the mech being a copy of Oskar's gear cube. Aren't the KO's of the V-Cube covered under a China patent? So that in and of itself doesn't mean its not a K.O. but it does appear they didn't copy Traiphum. So I would think the question to ask is where does Oskar stand on this topic? If he has no objections I think everything is ok. If he objects then its up to the site moderators to decide where they stand on this puzzle... or at least that is how I think it works.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:21 am 
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Location: Shelby Township, MI. USA
I finally received mine yesterday. I paid $24.29 (shipped) for it from [removed] using a 10% off coupon. While this is cheaper than anyone else sells it I still feel that I paid too much.

On the good side of things this puzzle has a good weight to it and the plastic that [removed] used feels nice and high quality (unlike some of their other puzzles).

On the bad side of things the stickers that they used are not very good. They don’t stick well to the curved surfaces and tend to want to roll up at the edges. The puzzle was very loose and would easily pop/skip gears. After tightening it (not easy as the screw heads were somewhat stripped) it is still far from perfect and can still skip gear teeth. I’m convinced that these gear puzzles just should not use springs. Finally, the center caps don’t stay on well at all and I’m not sure if the “paper trick” will help much either (I haven’t tried it yet). I don’t want to glue them on as I’m not sure I’m done adjusting the screws/springs. I feel that if someone else (such as MF8) made this puzzle instead I would be happier with it.

Finally, I would like to say that I wish this puzzle wasn’t pillowed.


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:59 am 
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My one hasn't had any problems regarding turning or gear skipping as yet, although I did severely tighten the puzzle soon after it arrived due to it feeling far too loose.

I did however have the same problem with the stickers, which I think are far too thick cut and inflexible to put on a surface as curved as these corners. The stickers would be fine if the puzzle wasn't pillowed.

Here's some more pics for anyone interested:

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Gear Mastermorphix by Puzzleparadox, on Flickr
Image
Gear Mastermorphix by Puzzleparadox, on Flickr
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Gear Mastermorphix by Puzzleparadox, on Flickr
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Gear Mastermorphix by Puzzleparadox, on Flickr

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Sorry to not have resolved this sooner.

This puzzle is considered KO by this site. Not because Traiphum posted pictures first (it does seem the injection molded version was already in progress) but because it is a direct copy of the Gear cube design with just the shape mod. Unlike some of the other Gear cube inspired gear designs, this borrows not just he concept but too much of the direct design.

As such I have removed all links and mentions of purchasing information and manufacturer names.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Isn't it a slippery slope to start considering shape modes to be KOs? If this is a KO then that means we really should consider the original Mastermorphix to be a KO of the Rubik's Cube. Not to mention just about all other shape mods...


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:13 pm 
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So I guess Traiphum's is also a KO then.... I agree with VP, what makes it different if a person makes it and sells it or if a factory makes it and sells it?


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:04 pm 
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Benf207 wrote:
So I guess Traiphum's is also a KO then.... I agree with VP, what makes it different if a person makes it and sells it or if a factory makes it and sells it?

Traiphum bought an original gear cube so money went to Oskar, then modified it into this shape. The factory is taking the gear cube design without giving money to Oskar.

Also, we don’t consider any 3x3s KOs of the Rubik’s cube because the patent is expired, so a shape mod wouldn’t be a KO unless it used the V-cube mech.


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:47 pm 
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eye2eye wrote:
Also, we don’t consider any 3x3s KOs of the Rubik’s cube because the patent is expired, so a shape mod wouldn’t be a KO unless it used the V-cube mech.

Actually we do, or at least we should. From the site KO policy:
Quote:
includes, but may not be limited to: all puzzles currently in production by their rightful owners

Rubik's Cubes are still in production by their rightful owners and licensed partners.

Shape mods have never been considered KOs before, at least not that I'm aware of. But if we are now going to consider some to be KOs how and where do we draw the line? It seems to me that we would have to consider all shape mods to be KOs.


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:19 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
Actually we do, or at least we should. From the site KO policy:
Quote:
includes, but may not be limited to: all puzzles currently in production by their rightful owners
Do consider the word "may" is not the same as "must".
The Rubik's cube had its day, and patent time frame and more. The classic Rubik's mechanism is not considered protected at this point. So puzzles using it (cubical or shape mods) are not considered KO.
Volitar Prime wrote:
Rubik's Cubes are still in production by their rightful owners and licensed partners.
What is protected is the trademark. How Seven Towns chooses to interpret this may not be identical to the interpretation of this site and to many it is seen as unfairly aggressive. This site would stand behind calling a product KO if it was truly trying to pass itself off as a genuine Rubik's product when it was not.
Volitar Prime wrote:
Shape mods have never been considered KOs before, at least not that I'm aware of. But if we are now going to consider some to be KOs how and where do we draw the line? It seems to me that we would have to consider all shape mods to be KOs.
Where to draw the line is a burden the site staff wrestles with fairly often. Rest assured it isn't my favorite job nor the easiest.
I think it is pretty clear to say a shape mod of an open mechanism is only KO if it steals from a legitimately protected design, i.e. if the inventiveness of the shape mod itself is protected. A case of this is the Windmill cube. Okamoto built this, showed this on his site and intended to produce it but it was knocked off first. The mass produced version isn't KO because of the classic 3x3x3 interior is similar to Rubik's mechanism, but because the shape modification idea was taken from Okamoto who would otherwise have put it out himself.

A shape mod of a protected mechanism can be considered KO just because of the mechanism and having nothing to do with the shape mod. The mass produced cubic 7x7x7 is a minor shape mod of he Verdes 7x7x7 and KO because of the mech, not the tiny exterior difference.

The mass produced Gear mastermorphix is considered KO much in this fashion. A mastermorphix modification is well known and not considered "owned" by anyone in particular, much like a half truncated transformation. Add on that there is evidence this mass produced version was independently conceived before Traiphum built his. This does not diminish Traiphum's wonderful work of course, but isn't too hard to believe given the timing.

But it is a shape mod of a puzzle that this same company had copied from Oskar and Bram's design. Hiding that theft with some exterior changes doesn't wash it away. These weren't trivial exterior changes, and credit goes to both this company and Traiphum for that work. The distinguishing factor (noted by eye2eye above) by is Traiphum sent his money to a proper source for the original puzzle and is selling his value added (the mod) whereas the other version does not respect Oskar and Bram's work.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:27 pm 
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I think we might need to make a proper definition of how long a puzzle can exist before any KOs of it aren't considered KO. I mean, the original 3x3 has been out for over 30 years, and that's pretty much fair game now.

Unless you claim to have invented it yourself, but that's just silly.

Anyway, if we're confused about things like this, maybe we need to set some sort of limit before anyone can make the puzzle. Hmm.


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:34 pm 
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megaminxwin wrote:
I think we might need to make a proper definition
One of the great wisdoms of this site's policy is in being a goal, not a hard set of rules. On this very grey topic any firm set of black and white rules will inevitably wind up insufficient.
We try be fair, and our best to be consistent. It isn't easy.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:38 pm 
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So basically, what we're going with here is a community decision? Works for me. So the V-Cubes are still protected - obviously - but your average 3x3 isn't. Makes sense.

Wow why are we even talking about this here. This probably needs a new thread, if it needs to be continued at all, which I doubt.


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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:02 am 
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megaminxwin wrote:
So basically, what we're going with here is a community decision?
Nope, this isn't up to a vote. This is Sandy's forum and he chose the forum staff to administer and moderate it. Any one is free to make their own forum with different rules.
megaminxwin wrote:
Wow why are we even talking about this here. This probably needs a new thread, if it needs to be continued at all, which I doubt.
Indeed, it has many other threads. If you are interested in the topic it has been explored in a lot of depth countless times. A good start is the sticky topic Knockoff Policy but read the forum a bit and you will find much more.

Hopefully this resolves the matter now,

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: gear mastermorphix
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:34 am 
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(this is my last post in this i swear)

DLitwin wrote:
Nope, this isn't up to a vote. This is Sandy's forum and he chose the forum staff to administer and moderate it. Any one is free to make their own forum with different rules.


I wasn't talking about just this forum, but about the general TP community as a whole. Also, it's not your normal vote, but one of those decisions where everyone decides, "hey this should be fair game now" and that's what happens.

EDIT: Wait, never mind, re-read the KO policy. Above paragraph is moot.

Ugh, I'm not good at explaining things. Hopefully that makes sense.

Okay. Now to leave this thread onto greener pastures. Or something. I don't know.


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