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 Post subject: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Location: Hungary, Budapest
Hi friends,

What do you think about the SS puzzles?
(I do not want to use the full name because of the KO policy)

Why always the KO puzzles are the best for speedcubing?
On competitions usually you can't see any original cubes just KO-s
just a small list what competitors use:
- LL 2x2x2 (If I'm right it is KO)
- Dayan 3x3x3 (I'm still not aware that this is KO or not, but I know it is very similar to V-3)
- SS 4x4x4 (Some still use QJ-4)
- SS 5x5x5 (Some still use V-5)
- SS 6x6x6 (Some still use V-6)
- V-7x7x7 The only one what is not KO (But if I'm right the SS cubic version is coming out soon...)

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Last edited by Olivér Nagy on Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:22 pm 
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There is no V4, most people don't consider the Dayan cubes as knockoffs but instead the other way around, and I'm not entirely sure LL 2x2 can be considered as a KO but I'm not sure.
The reason they're used in competition is simply because they perform better for the most part and are cheaper. Although a lot of people on this forum have a huge problem with KOs, there are a lot who really couldn't care less.

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Sorry about the V-4 I wanted to wrote QJ-4
(did edit)

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Last edited by Olivér Nagy on Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:15 pm 
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I'm indifferent about the SS puzzles, it all comes down to preference. I personally like the V-5 and V-6 more then the SS, but the SS 4x4 is probably the best out there for it's price.


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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Quote:
(But if I'm right the SS cubic version is coming out soon...)

The SS CUBIC 7x7x7 came out March 23th. I probably shouldn't say this, but, Yes! I like SS


Last edited by weatherbird on Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:33 pm 
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Location: Shelby Township, MI. USA
I personally don't consider the SS cubes to be KOs but not everyone agrees with me.


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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Location: Canada
Volitar Prime wrote:
I personally don't consider the SS cubes to be KOs but not everyone agrees with me.


It really depend, on what is your exact description of a KO, a puzzle can use a similar mechanism to another without really being a KO, like that's my opinion :oops: . SS puzzles, are based on v-cube design, no doubt, but I mean, there's still a difference, that is pretty visible (I find), and there a limit, in a way or another, it's basically "impossible" to come out with a totally different mechanism that will work, as well, or better :| ... But anyways. My opinion on SS cubes, are that they are pretty good speedcubes.

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:00 pm 
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First of all, most cubers have switched to using type-C 2x2s, which are not considered KOs. Why do people use knock-off big cubes? because they are better. The KO companys keep releasing new versions based on the community's critique. So far V-cube hasn't even released a 4x4, while the company in question has released three 4x4s as well as 5x5s, 6x6s, and 7x7s. Their products are cheaper too. I don't want to comment on dayan cubes, because that argument has been thoroughly exhausted.

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:32 pm 
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Location: Bay Area, CA
Indeed those you call out are considered KO by this site. You are welcome to have your own definition of KO for your own site of course, but those are the rules here.

As for why we consider these KO (well, the > 5x5x5 puzzles) I'll quote Drake:
Drake wrote:
it's basically "impossible" to come out with a totally different mechanism that will work, as well, or better
Sure, and no one (for decades) figured this out before Verdes. So it wasn't obvious, he spent a lot of time and money getting patents on it and now everyone uses it giving him no license or credit. Our site doesn't think this is respectful, regardless of the great and innovative modifications that might be made to the original design.

As for the 2x2x2 there are KO and non-KO versions. The KO versions are pretty much identical copies of the EastSheen patented design. Sometimes modified (i.e. springs) but that doesn't mean it suddenly isn't a patent violation.

Why are they more popular? I'm sure it is a combination of price and quality. Those companies didn't have the initial costs that Verdes had, nor even the ongoing costs (it costs more to manufacture in Greece than China, I am sure). They were able to start from a completed and very refined design with zero costs (something that took four years and who knows how much money for Verdes to accomplish), and didn't even have to build the market. So of course they can be cheaper and have more money and opportunity to add further design tweaks.
Patent law is designed to protect inventors from exactly this problem to give them incentive to share designs.

Imagine if, years ago, Verdes knew the law would give them little support despite tens of thousands of dollars of patents. Perhaps he wouldn't have bothered. And where would our community have been? Read back a few years (it hasn't been that long) and look at the explosion of new designs that came from his innovation (applied to non-cubic or >12 layers). Then look at the pace of new designs before it to get an appreciation of what he contributed.

Sure many people don't care, and that is their business. But the owner, Admins and Moderators of this forum care, as do many of the members that make this forum the great place it is.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:52 am 
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Location: Chicago,
This pulls up a good question: if a company knocks off one cube, is it fair to then say they are a KO company? Some company's have only knocked off one cube, and yet we call out that one cube, and the company and all the cubes it produces are now a KO. Is this really fair?

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:25 am 
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RubiksMaster614 wrote:
This pulls up a good question: if a company knocks off one cube, is it fair to then say they are a KO company? Some company's have only knocked off one cube, and yet we call out that one cube, and the company and all the cubes it produces are now a KO. Is this really fair?
Things are never this black and white. For example, there must have been some back-room deals regarding the V-3 simularity to other products. It needs to be taken on a puzzle-by-puzzle basis rather than a blanket label that gets assigned to companies.

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:23 am 
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RubiksMaster614 wrote:
This pulls up a good question: if a company knocks off one cube, is it fair to then say they are a KO company? Some company's have only knocked off one cube, and yet we call out that one cube, and the company and all the cubes it produces are now a KO. Is this really fair?
A company can produce many puzzles, and I'm not sure I know of a company that produces only KO products. Some clearly are more inventive than others.
So this site takes things on a puzzle by puzzle basis, not labeling a designer nor producer as KO for all their work.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: Hungary, Budapest
It looks this talking went to a way that I did not wanted.

I'm just curious that what are you think about this "new" kind of cube family.
Are you have them in your collection?
do you use them?
What are you think about using a KO puzzle on competition?
etc.

I have tried it, and I think they are much more better than anything I have tried for speedcubing.

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:53 pm 
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I have the SS 5x5x5 and I really like it. It is my favorite cube I have and turns very good. SS cubes are much cheaper (I got the 5x5 for $10) and are still good quality. I use it the most out of all my cubes. I don't know too much about the competitions, but i don't see why they shouldn't be allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:54 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA
I personally have a SS 4x4 and 5x5 in my collection. I really love both of them, and use them almost on a daily basis. I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed in competition because the competitor should be able to use the cube that suits them. I respect the original designs though, and intend on adding the originals to my collection as well once i can afford them :D :solved:

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 Post subject: Re: SS puzzles (KO?) in competitions
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:22 pm 
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SS 4x4x4 is probably the only cube that I use for competitions that can be considered "KO" cubes. I use v-cube 5x5x5 6x6x6 and 7x7x7 for competitions.

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