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 Post subject: Starminx (face turning) Solving
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:00 pm 
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[Moderator: Solving posts split out from the mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning) Marketplace thread.]
Quote:
If you need help you can look at bmenrigh's video tutorial .


I need help !
Perhaps someone can help me.

I cannot understand the gelatinbrain program. If I select a puzzle no picture with the puzzle comes. Where can I input sequences ? I cannot read more than 2000 postings.
Konrad owns the version from TomZ. I think this version is better than the version from mf8.

I disassembled the face turning starminx (mf8) and lubricated the inner core, too.
It turns a little bit better now.
But I would not recommend this puzzle !

The real puzzle has the disadvantage that the turns that needed are blocking. So its better to solve it with a simulator.
Can someone help me give a link , or so.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
Quote:
If you need help you can look at bmenrigh's video tutorial .


I need help !
Perhaps someone can help me.

I cannot understand the gelatinbrain program. If I select a puzzle no picture with the puzzle comes. Where can I input sequences ? I cannot read more than 2000 postings.


1st open the java system settings. Next click on advanced -> security -> safetycheck
and there deactivate the verification.

Since I only see my settings in german I hope the words I used make sense.

I always have to wait a minute or two until the applet runs the puzzle.

I hope you'll get it going!

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:21 pm 
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alaskajoe wrote:
...1st open the java system settings. Next click on advanced -> security -> safetycheck
and there deactivate the verification.

Since I only see my settings in german I hope the words I used make sense.

I always have to wait a minute or two until the applet runs the puzzle.

I hope you'll get it going!
Andrea is German as we are :)
Here it is in German
Systemsteuerung, Java
In the Java Control Panel select "Erweitert", "Sicherheitsüberfrüfung", "Überprüfung deaktivieren (nicht empfohlen)"

The problem is that there is some danger if other Java applets are malicious :(

I had to do this for a while, several months ago.
I have a W7 /x64 notebook and with the actual Java version I do not see any problems (OK, sometimes the applet hangs and I have to reload it)

I recommend Gelatinbrain for finding move sequences for complex puzzles like the Starminx.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Hi Konrad and Alskajoe,

thank you for your help.
I agree to Konrad that it's danger to deactivate the java security.
I tried it but nothing changed.

So I looked to the website which number the face turning starminx has and choose this number in the MagicPolyhedra program.
This works, but I cannot edit and explore sequences. But the mouse input works fine.

Cheers,
Andrea

PS: in my opinion the faceturning starminx is one of the hardest puzzles, more difficult than Bermuda Cubes or Crazy Megaminxes.


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:46 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Andrea is German as we are :)


I thought so due to videos of her and the her name. I didn't think about it when I posted. :lol: Also I just read "location: Germany" below her Avatar so now I know. :lol:

Hey Andrea, I don't know if you want to really start into the applet but I bet you would be really good because in my opinion your work with the Bermuda cubes' solutions is crazy.

I won't be able to get my Starminx until the end of next week. Man I was so hoping it would be there before this weekend but it wasn't. Also I am waiting for numerous videos on it. There are still none to find except the first one from Rox. I always watch hundrets of reviews of a puzzle I ordered during the time I have to wait for it. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:19 am 
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Andrea wrote:
...
PS: in my opinion the faceturning starminx is one of the hardest puzzles, more difficult than Bermuda Cubes or Crazy Megaminxes.
I think the challenge is quite different, but in my opinion the Starminx is not so hard.
Let's assume you have solved a Pyraminx Crystal: You know how to solve the 30 edges of the Starminx!
(You need to memorize the colour scheme or better you have another dodecahedron with the same colour scheme besides you.)
Next the centres: When you look at a solved Starminx and do the usual [1,1] commutator for the edges, it is easy to see that you have isolated a centre. This leads to a [[1,1],1] commutator (10 moves) or shorter to a [3,1] commutator (8 moves).
You have covered two of three piece types easily.

In the third step you need commutators for the triangular tips.
It is not so obvious, how to isolate a triangle.
In my case, I had solved the (harder) Pentultimate first and had made the recognition that double moves (e.g. R2) replacing single moves in known move sequences can help.
I will not say more, but I think that somebody with your solving skills (proven in the Bermudas and Crazy threads :!: ) will find usefull commutators with a tool like the Gelatinbrain program without big difficulties.
(On a scrambled Starminx this would be really hard. At least for me.)

Now, given all commutators for the three piece types, the real challenge starts when solving the 60 Starminx tips (triangles). As I have said above, you need a ton of concentration and a lot of stamina not to get lost during step 3.
Especially, when more tips are solved, the setup moves are less obvious.

Therefore, this puzzle will be hard - and hopefully fun ! - for a long time. Not because it is so difficult to find the needed move sequences, but because it is pretty easy to get lost during the long solving process. At least this is my personal experience. And if you have got by bad luck a pretty stiff puzzle with catching pieces, the whole solving process can become frustrating.


BTW, for the sanding I used Micro Mesh http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product ... t-pads.htm
First grain 1500 afterwards for polishing grain 6000.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:57 am 
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Konrad wrote:
I will not say more, but I think that somebody with your solving skills (proven in the Bermudas and Crazy threads :!: ) will find usefull commutators with a tool like the Gelatinbrain program without big difficulties.
(On a scrambled Starminx this would be really hard. At least for me.)


Thanks for the answer and commendation. But I am not so good solving puzzles, because I cannot memorize many setup moves for conjugators. :oops:
I use commutators and conjugators to find sequences for solving puzzles. But I don't use conjugators/commutators on the fly.
I use more strategic solutions, than memorizing.
So I prefer solving puzzles area by area.

My experience with the FT Starminx:

I tried to find commutators and conjugators.
I began with doubleslice moves MR2' ML2 MR2 ML2'
Then, I looked for the result, then I combined this with setup moves.

Doing this the FT Starminx locked and the puzzle was scrambled. I forgot the sequences.
Now, I used this situation for disassembling the FT minx.
One tension screw was harder then the other. I corrected this.
OMG
A hard puzzle. But a very interesting puzzle. Perhaps I begin with my new pretty Pyraminx Crystal.

Cheers,
Andrea :) :scrambled: -> :solved:

(edit) The video from Brandon is very intersting !


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Let's assume you have solved a Pyraminx Crystal: You know how to solve the 30 edges of the Starminx!
(You need to memorize the colour scheme or better you have another dodecahedron with the same colour scheme besides you.)

Konrad, thanks for your post here. This is just the sort of thing I was after. My question is, since everything moves so much, and you've said to memorise the colour scheme etc, is there any other way to keep track of what goes where, or is this just an effect of having so many pieces move around?

Quote:
Next the centres: When you look at a solved Starminx and do the usual [1,1] commutator for the edges, it is easy to see that you have isolated a centre. This leads to a [[1,1],1] commutator (10 moves) or shorter to a [3,1] commutator (8 moves).

OK. Once I've done the [1,1] commutator for edges, (holding with a downward pointing pentagon as up face), and moving L' R L R', which centre is it that's isolated? To me it looks like 4 have changed. I'm confused here.

Quote:
In the third step you need commutators for the triangular tips.
It is not so obvious, how to isolate a triangle.
In my case, I had solved the (harder) Pentultimate firs

What advice would you give for those of us who don't have a pentultimate?
"Not so obvious" is an understatement!!

And on a related matter, having read the above posts about the turning, I have to say I think it's not good of mf8 to release a puzzle which has these issues. It won't help their reputation in the long run. Mine certainly has the same problems, but I'm not willing (or able) to take it apart and sand the tips. I really don't think that after paying what I did, I should have to! I'm quite happy to lube it though. I agree with you that it seems like mf8 rushed the release without getting this right. Quite different to someone like Ayi, who took the time but now his 554 is beautiful.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:56 pm 
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rline wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Let's assume you have solved a Pyraminx Crystal: You know how to solve the 30 edges of the Starminx!
(You need to memorize the colour scheme or better you have another dodecahedron with the same colour scheme besides you.)

Konrad, thanks for your post here. This is just the sort of thing I was after. My question is, since everything moves so much, and you've said to memorise the colour scheme etc, is there any other way to keep track of what goes where, or is this just an effect of having so many pieces move around?
If you look at the colors of the edges you narrow down the color scheme to two possibilities. If you choose the right one then you won't have any issue but if you choose the wrong color scheme (the mirror color scheme) you will end up with 2 swapped edges.

You do not have to memorize the entire color scheme. You only have to memorize the configuration of 3 colors. Pick an arbitrary color (say, white) as the top, then pick two faces next to each other touching the white face and memorize which one goes on the left and which one goes on the right. This will uniquely define the color scheme for the whole puzzle.

rline wrote:
Quote:
Next the centres: When you look at a solved Starminx and do the usual [1,1] commutator for the edges, it is easy to see that you have isolated a centre. This leads to a [[1,1],1] commutator (10 moves) or shorter to a [3,1] commutator (8 moves).

OK. Once I've done the [1,1] commutator for edges, (holding with a downward pointing pentagon as up face), and moving L' R L R', which centre is it that's isolated? To me it looks like 4 have changed. I'm confused here.
The [1,1] cycle for the edges does a 2-2 swap in the centers (4 have changed). Three of the 4 are "isolated" so you have 3 options for a Y portion of the commutator.

I covered this is my video "How to solve a Starminx -- 3 -- Centers"

rline wrote:
Quote:
In the third step you need commutators for the triangular tips.
It is not so obvious, how to isolate a triangle.
In my case, I had solved the (harder) Pentultimate firs

What advice would you give for those of us who don't have a pentultimate?
"Not so obvious" is an understatement!!
In my opinion the Pentultimate doesn't help with the Starminx points at all (although the Master Pentultimate does).

There are lots of ways to isolate the points on a Starminx but the shortest way to isolate one is 3 moves (which makes a 8-move commutator). Part 4 of my Starminx solving series talks about the points and shows ways of isolating them.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:05 am 
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Hi Friends,
I was refraining from posting sequences, particularly because one little thing can give away a lot, and I respect that a lot of people are devising solutions. At this stage I will reveal some things about how I approached it. I had not solved it on gelatinbrain, so it was a fresh challenge.

I usually have in my mind a visual priority, I want to see the puzzle come together, the more I see it, the more I enjoy solving it. I could build the lower part of the puzzle intuitively (below the E layer). It was fairly easy to do that and it didn't feel like much work. After that I placed the centres at the top. So far I avoided commutators.

I developed a few commutators for the edges, to solve different pieces, one face turning and more efficient (non pure- but not affecting centres) and one slice turning and less efficient (but pure). And of course a flipping sequence. I used one sequence primarily for targeting the 5 vertical edges and the other primarily for trading between the U and E layers. This way I could systematically build it. [(They're both [4,1] commutators so they're not `that` inefficient).]

The sequence I used for the tips is not as efficient as Brandon's method, but it suited my way of solving and it is easily recognisable so I will hide it in a hidden spoiler:
[[Sune - E layer turn - Sune reversed - return E layer]]
I think there are people who would prefer this because you are less likely to make mistakes, you already know it, and it is ergonomic to do, and it suited my method where I was able to exploit the E layer to avoid complicated set ups.

I have since watched Brandon's video and enjoyed it, thanks Brandon, great contribution :D . I am also interested to see the diversity of what others come up with. I don't think my method is a highly efficient method, but I think it offers a user friendly aspect that some people will like, and I would consider it a work in progress anyway.

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:19 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
...In my opinion the Pentultimate doesn't help with the Starminx points at all (although the Master Pentultimate does).

There are lots of ways to isolate the points on a Starminx but the shortest way to isolate one is 3 moves (which makes a 8-move commutator). Part 4 of my Starminx solving series talks about the points and shows ways of isolating them.
Thanks Brandon for all your comments!
I highly recommend your Starminx video tutorial to everybody!!!
I like it very much, because the viewer gets insight into the principles while the challenge still remains high. No finished move sequences are written down, but you get all the hints you need to come up with the necessary commutators.

I had mentioned the Pentultimate only, because when I looked for commutators for it, I recognized that known sequences like R L' R' L (I hope the notation is clear. If not, have a look at the thread about dodecahedron notation) can provide something new if you replace the single turns by double turns and try R2 L'2 R'2 L2. This I had learned from the Pentultimate solution.

BTW, my first 3-cycle for Pentultimate corners was pretty long and later on I found an amazing 3-cycle by 10 moves in the Gelatinbrain thread. It was originally found by Brandon (and if you have not used a computer program you are more of a genius than I recognize in you already :) :) :) ).
Actually, I use this move sequence for the Starminx tips sometimes, to avoid too many setup moves.
It has the advantage that two tips on a single face are part of the 3 cycle group.
Here it is in my notation
[F2 L' R U2 L' U'2 L R' F'2 L ]
I use it especially in the end game when only a few tips are not yet correct and it is getting harder to come up with short setup sequences. I find more than three setup moves already hard to inverse. :roll:
EDIT:
Here is a picture with the result when performed on a solved Starminx:

Image

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Last edited by Konrad on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:49 pm 
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I use [H'2, D'2, H2, D'2&2, H'2, D2, H2, D2&2] on the Starminx:
Attachment:
starminx_3_cycle.png
starminx_3_cycle.png [ 18.78 KiB | Viewed 6202 times ]


The reason I chose this variation is that it has more setup freedom than any other 3-cycle I have found.

Notice than the purple, green, and blue faces can be freely turned to reach any of the 5 points on each face and the twisting of the faces doesn't affect the other pieces. I find that I get myself into the most trouble with setup moves when I have to move a point out of the way for a setup move and then put it back. By using a cycle that I never have to move a point out of the way I reduce the confusion with the setups.

Also, notice that the white face can be spun freely with allows you to put many other points in the spot on the purple face. Also, you can spin the white face freely and then spin the purple face for access to even more points on the faces around the white face.

By spinning the brown face you can put almost most points on the faces around the brown face onto the green face and then by spinning the green face you have access to even more possibilities.

The same goes for the faces around the blue face.

In general by having the points so spread out the setups for one point are much less likely to get in the way of another point.

And for shameless self promotion, I have a script to translate Gelatinbrain's notation into Konrad's (among other things) here: http://www.brandonenright.net/cgi-bin/gb_util.pl

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
EDIT:
@bmenrigh: Brandon, I like this move sequence. :D (I have used your move converter immediately :) )

How do you handle cases where you need two tips on one face in the 3 cycle?
(The case where I use your 10 move Pentultimate cycle mentioned above. Please, have a look at the picture in my EDIT above.)

I would use the orange face as a setup move to put another purple point on the back yellow face:
[K'2], [H'2, D'2, H2, D'2&2, H'2, D2, H2, D2&2], [K2]
Attachment:
starminx_3_cycle_alt.png
starminx_3_cycle_alt.png [ 10.85 KiB | Viewed 6169 times ]


The K'2 setup puts the purple piece on the yellow face and then a setup in the yellow face allows you to reach any other purple pieces and a setup in the light-blue face allows any other light-blue piece. 4 setups will allow any combination of pieces on these two faces but just 1 or 2 setups will often do the trick.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:46 am 
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rline wrote:
...
Konrad or Brandon, in the 10-move sequence Konrad mentions (along with the picture), which are the moves that isolate the corner tip? I'm assuming since it's a 3-cycle, it's an x,y commutator. This could be a wrong assumption. So if it is, which is the x part? Also, what would the notation be for the 3 pieces which are moved? I'm thinking FL->FUR->?
This 10 move sequence is not a commutator. Many useful sequences are not. (e.g. Sune R U R' U R U2 R' or flipping edges by F U R U' R' F')
Commutators are a wonderful tool to find new sequences, but not all useful sequences are commutators.)

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:29 am 
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Hi Konrad, Brandon,

I tried your sequence. My MagicPolyhedra program has no text input.

I cannot understand the notation so I used your pearl converter to convert it in Konrad's notation.

Your sequence:
H'2, D'2, H2, D'2&2, H'2, D2, H2, D2&2

After converting:

UR'2, DR'2, UR2, dr'2, UR'2, DR2, UR2, dr2

I hope , that I understand Konrad's notation.

The result:
Attachment:
tipSequence.jpg
tipSequence.jpg [ 82.8 KiB | Viewed 6000 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:01 am 
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Hi Andrea,

there must be something wrong with the translation of moves.
I have translated the two move sequences from Brandon to our notation and have adapted it to the configuration how I view the Starminx usually. Please, try this:
L'2, R'2, L2, r'2, L'2, R2, L2, r2
Result on a solved Starminx:
Image
Instead of showing the complete backview, I show just the two back faces where triangles have moved.

And the second with a Setup move where two triangles on one face are involved:
UR'2, L'2, R'2, L2, r'2, L'2, R2, L2, r2, UR2
Image

For those not yet familiar with the notation we came up with in the dodecahedron notation thread:
UR is the invisible face adjacent to U and R.

I hope this helps! :)

EDIT:
@bmenrigh: Thanks Brandon for your last hint. This is much easier to memorize and not longer than the rather tricky Pentultimate sequence I had used so far.

@Andrea: I like Burgo's move sequence with Sune as the X part.
How does it compare to Brandon's 8 move commutator:
1. Move count
If we count double (like L'2) turns as one move we have 8 moves compared with 16 moves.
If we count single moves as one we have
L'2, R'2, L2, r'2, L'2, R2, L2, r2 = 16 moves
R U R' U R U2 R' u R U'2 R' U' R U' R' u' = 18 moves

2. Danger of screwing up the move sequence
Might be lower with the Sune sequence because the lower part remains completely unchanged after the X part.

3. Visibility of the three moving tips
Probably easier with the Sune as X.

2. Setup Moves
I see a big advantage for Brandon's sequence here. As he has explained above you have a lot of freedom to move a piece around without disturbing the other two.

I think I'll try both when I do my next solving.
(And probably I will use my Pentultimate sequence for the Pentultimate only :) )

EDIT2: Actually, Andrea's translation was correct. So, you must have interpreted my notation incorrectly.
The outer faces should not cause a problem.
Here is the notation again.

Image
and dr is the slice layer below DR.
Maybe it is easier with the adapted more common names: L R r?

Just in case that the r notation is not clear to everybody I have made this picture:

Image

It is an r move half completed.

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Last edited by Konrad on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Well in-between studying for and taking my exams yesterday I attempted to solve the starminx. Thanks very much to Brandon, for his video tutorial.

I really enjoyed this puzzle, it is the first "deeper cut" puzzle I have ever solved, and probably the most difficult. Even with the tutorials from Brandon I found that set up moves for this puzzle were very difficult for me. So many pieces move with each other that set up's get complicated. If you forget where the faces were you can mess up very easily.

This brings me to another point, one little mistake can be catastrophic for a solve. If you make a mistake it can be very difficult to fix and I must have had to start over from the edges a dozen times.

Once you get the hang of it the centers are pretty easy to place, but the star pieces are a pain.
The most difficult thing is the set up moves for the star pieces, especially when you get down to just 8 or 10 of them.

I made a video demonstrating the things I learned from brandon, this is mostly to show the movement of the puzzle.

After a full solve of this puzzle it moves quite well, I would say as well as my pyraminx crystal (first round of stickered ones). In the video it looks like it catches quite a bit, I blame the camera for that, I was being pretty careless, trying to show off the puzzle, during my solve it did not catch much at all, and never gave me an issue with forgetting where I was in a movement.

I have not adjusted, lubricated, or modified my puzzle in any way, and I don't think that I will.

video.


Attachments:
SD533900.JPG
SD533900.JPG [ 2.12 MiB | Viewed 6750 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Konrad, thanks for your posting at Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:01 pm.

Great work. Your posted sequences work fine :)
Burgos sequence ( number of moves doesn't matter for me) has the advantage that I see all 3 permuting tips without turning the minx.
I cannot memorize more than 1 or 2 setup moves. Instead of setup moves I use the same commutators to bring the pieces in easier positions. ( the same strategy I use to solve centers on FTO).
The centers of FT Starminx I solve without setup moves.
Ok, this solution strategy is not the best, but better than make a mistake and begin new. I solve it not as battle.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
rline wrote:
...
Konrad or Brandon, in the 10-move sequence Konrad mentions (along with the picture), which are the moves that isolate the corner tip? I'm assuming since it's a 3-cycle, it's an x,y commutator. This could be a wrong assumption. So if it is, which is the x part? Also, what would the notation be for the 3 pieces which are moved? I'm thinking FL->FUR->?
This 10 move sequence is not a commutator. Many useful sequences are not. (e.g. Sune R U R' U R U2 R' or flipping edges by F U R U' R' F')
Commutators are a wonderful tool to find new sequences, but not all useful sequences are commutators.)


The 10-move routine for the Pentultimate corners ([A2, F', C, B2, F', B'2, F, C', A'2, F]) is a bit of magic found by a program I wrote. I classified the shortest 3-cycles for every possible corner pattern on the Pentultimate here.

It isn't a commutator or of standard form but it is VERY CLOSE.

That is, the routine is:
[A2, F', C, B2, F', B'2, F, C', A'2, F]

And if you swap the order of the last two moves you get:
[A2, F', C, B2, F', B'2, F, C', F, A'2]

Which is:
[A2:[F':[C:[B2, F']]]]

Why the swapping of the A'2 and F moves results in a useful sequence is a mystery I don't have any good answer for. The shortest standard-form commutator to 3-cycle corners is 14 moves.

The fact that the 10-move corner routine happens to 3-cycle the Starminx points is little more than luck. If you try out some of the other short Pentultimate corner routines you'll see they generally make a mess of the Starminx.

I think Sune working to isolate a Starminx point is also little more than luck.

One of the many benefits to solving with commutators is that they are trivial to invert. Just do the Y part first. X Y X' Y inverts to Y X Y' X so if you think of the commutator as two parts, an X and a Y then inverting it doesn't require any thinking. Also, for the Starminx Y is 1 move and X is 3 moves so you're only memorizing 4 moves even though the sequence is 8 moves, nicely symmetrical, and has a great deal of flexibility.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
Hi Konrad, Brandon,

I tried your sequence. My MagicPolyhedra program has no text input.

Hey Andrea, if you have no text input it means you downloaded the pre-packaged stand-alone executable which doesn't get updated very often and has limitations such as not supporting macro input.

You need to download the raw java package (jar) and execute it that way. The best way to do that is to grab http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/Applets/Magic%20Polyhedra/installer.jar which automates what you need to download. See This Thread for help.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:15 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
After complete one face I made a mistake and now I must begin from start. A puzze for the whole live.
To avoid the puzzle looking like a mess I made the lower section using intuition first (using no sequences). I used slice turns to `get` pieces from either the E layer (edges) or the U layer (tips), this was really handy and avoided the `dazzle factor` of the puzzle.

I found that with the puzzle completed in this `layers format` (and after the edges and centres are placed) it was natural to exchange tips `mostly` between the U face and E layer. If you start with the more difficult ones (like: the upside down ones in the E layer- which take an R2 turn & then the ones in the upper section that take a R turn- to setup into the U face: so a combination of perhaps `a slice turn and then a R turn` setup). This type of systematic approach can make it easier for setups. A single or double R turn is easier to see as a setup undo, then the slice turn is obvious.

I haven't actually put into practice Brandon's method yet but I look forward to using it.

[Incidentally, Sune can be used to isolate the ] Master Pentultimate corners [also] :wink: .

Cheers,
Burgo.

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Last edited by Burgo on Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:37 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
...You need to download the raw java package (jar) and execute it that way. The best way to do that is to grab http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/Applets/Magic%20Polyhedra/installer.jar which automates what you need to download. See This Thread for help.

This is great! The first time I could install MagicPolyhedra on my W7 x64 notebook successfully. :D

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:50 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
The shortest standard-form commutator to 3-cycle corners is 14 moves.

Brandon, Do you mind sharing this one?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Yes, agreed, thanks for the links Brandon, I will try to install it soon, I only have the pre-packaged stand-alone executable.

Cheers,
Burgo :D .

PS With a sellout so fast.. they will restock it- for sure :wink: .

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:59 pm 
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On the topic of the Pentultimate corners:

rline wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
The shortest standard-form commutator to 3-cycle corners is 14 moves.

Brandon, Do you mind sharing this one?

Yeah sure. The one I use is [D, C, G, C', G', D', J', D, G, C, G', C', D', J] but there are variations on that theme. They are based on a nested [1,1] commutator with a setup. That is [[1:[1,1]],1]. In the case above it is [[D:[C,G]],J']. There is flexibility in your choice of J.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:34 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
You need to download the raw java package (jar) and execute it that way. The best way to do that is to grab http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... taller.jar which automates what you need to download. See This Thread for help.


Thank you Brandon. Now, the first time that this program runs correct with text input and pictures in menu.
I am happy.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:06 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
On the topic of the Pentultimate corners:
Hi Brandon and others,
That method I put above will work for both Master Pentultimate and Pentultimate corners :) .
(I just hadn't solved the `Pentultimate` yet).
Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:36 am 
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Quote:
You need to download the raw java package (jar) and execute it that way. The best way to do that is to grab http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... taller.jar which automates what you need to download.

brandon

I just downloaded this file and it shows up and works fine. Except, in your videos, you turned an E slice. I can't seem to do that. how is it done?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:44 am 
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rline wrote:
Except, in your videos, you turned an E slice. I can't seem to do that. how is it done?



Hold the shift key and click with the mouse on a face.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:34 am 
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Andrea wrote:
rline wrote:
Except, in your videos, you turned an E slice. I can't seem to do that. how is it done?



Hold the shift key and click with the mouse on a face.

Cheers,
Andrea

Oh right. Simple. thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:10 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
The 10-move routine for the Pentultimate corners ([A2, F', C, B2, F', B'2, F, C', A'2, F]) is a bit of magic found by a program I wrote. I classified the shortest 3-cycles for every possible corner pattern on the Pentultimate here.

It isn't a commutator or of standard form but it is VERY CLOSE.

That is, the routine is:
[A2, F', C, B2, F', B'2, F, C', A'2, F]

And if you swap the order of the last two moves you get:
[A2, F', C, B2, F', B'2, F, C', F, A'2]

Which is:
[A2:[F':[C:[B2, F']]]]

Why the swapping of the A'2 and F moves results in a useful sequence is a mystery I don't have any good answer for. The shortest standard-form commutator to 3-cycle corners is 14 moves.

The fact that the 10-move corner routine happens to 3-cycle the Starminx points is little more than luck.

Well, after getting my first solve under my belt (too many corner tips), I decided to have a closer look at the 10 move sequence (which Brandon introduced for the Pentultimate and Konrad gave notation for the FTS.)

Konrad's notation was [F2 L' R U2 L' U'2 L R' F'2 L]

I tried starting that sequence at different spots, and found a couple of other 3-cycles. The one I like best is this:

[R U2 L' U'2 L R' F'2 L F2 L'].

You can see it has just moved the first two moves to the end. Suddenly, a couple of very nice [1,1] commutators appear, separated by single face turns.

I wonder if this perhaps explains some of the mystery of the original sequence. I'm happy to have found it because it fits very nicely with the ultimate solution. I've included a picture below, but my skills are not quite as advanced as Konrad's. :lol: Its 3 pieces are separated by a face, but i don't think this will be a problem because I found that using the other sequence, I often needed to move pieces away from the 1st face. I also have no idea of the notation for the 3 pieces.

Attachment:
Untitled.jpg
Untitled.jpg [ 58.34 KiB | Viewed 6505 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:19 pm 
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rline, very nice finding :D
And it works on the Pentultimate too!
How did you come up with it?
I believe that you connect ALL [1,1] commutators with the Ultimate Solution :lol:

I think the startips names need two identifiers combined: The face they are in and the dodecahedron corner name.
E.g. startip on face U at corner UFR. As we have two letter and single letter names for faces, we should better write a corner name like DR-BR-D because DRBRD would look confusing.
Anyway, a picture does explain it better :)

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:11 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
rline, very nice finding :D
And it works on the Pentultimate too!
How did you come up with it?
I believe that you connect ALL [1,1] commutators with the Ultimate Solution :lol:

I think the startips names need two identifiers combined: The face they are in and the dodecahedron corner name.
E.g. startip on face U at corner UFR. As we have two letter and single letter names for faces, we should better write a corner name like DR-BR-D because DRBRD would look confusing.
Anyway, a picture does explain it better :)


Regarding turning A2, [F', C, B2, F', B'2, F, C', A'2, F] into [C, B2, F', B'2, F, C', A'2, F, A2, F'], all sequences can be seen as rings. We write them as a line but actually you can start anywhere in the sequence and when you reach the end just start at the beginning and do moves up to where you started.

You can also sometimes eliminate redundant moves this way. For example:

[A:[B,C]] -> A B C B' C' A' -> (rotate it right one move) -> B C B' C' A' A -> B C B' C'

As you can see, the A setup is not fundamental to the sequence and only serves to change what is affected in the sequence, not the underlying effect of the sequence.

I use this trick in my reduction solves quite a bit :wink:

The interesting thing about the computer-found 10-move sequence is that the first [1,1] of [B2, F'] uses the same faces as the second [1,1] [A'2, F] when you re-orient the puzzle about the F face.

Unfortunately viewing this sequence from these different perspectives doesn't really do much to tell me why it works. It still seems magical even though it has an underlying structure to it.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:24 pm 
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For the Starminx, I was asked about isolating the points. To quote (I have permission to do so and I have paraphrased for simplicity):
Quote:
I am quite confused. My understanding, from previously, and also from your videos, was that to create a 3-cycle, you need to isolate a piece type on a face.

So, I went to 1.1.5, and on the initialized puzzle (white at the front), I did

(L R' L' R) x 2. I noticed that on the blue face, there seems to be an isolated corner tip, which is colored red.

So, I reasoned that if I then turned that blue face one turn, and then undid the (L R' L' R) x 2 and finally turned the blue face back again, that should create a 3-cycle.

Well, it created a 5-cycle.

So either I'm not understanding something, or else there have actually been 2 corner tips moved by the (L R' L' R) x 2. I cannot see more than one that's been moved.

This is a good question and it has to do with duplicate colored pieces creating a false isolation. If you do [L R L' R]x2 you get:
Attachment:
starminx_fake_isolation.png
starminx_fake_isolation.png [ 28.79 KiB | Viewed 6442 times ]


It looks like the piece labeled C is isolated so that if you turn the dark blue face (cut highlighted) you will create a 3-cycle. Unfortunately C isn't isolated though. The piece that was in the A position moved to the B position but because A and B were the same color to start you can't see that the B piece is out-of-place.

A commutator based off of this should create two 3-cycles and indeed, if you follow through you get:
Attachment:
starminx_fake_isolation_cycles.png
starminx_fake_isolation_cycles.png [ 30.74 KiB | Viewed 6442 times ]


I have shown both 3-cycles.

When you are trying to isolate pieces to create a commutator you have to be careful not to be tricked by identical pieces moving.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
rline, very nice finding :D
And it works on the Pentultimate too! How did you come up with it?

Thanks. Basically when I see a sequence that does something useful, but is not connected with a corner piece series or edge piece series, I'm always curious to see whether I can adapt it. So i just thought about starting at different points in the sequence. Brandon has said it hasn't taken the mystery of the original one away. For me, though, it certainly has put it into a form that I'm familiar with.


Konrad wrote:
I believe that you connect ALL [1,1] commutators with the Ultimate Solution :lol:

Guilty as charged! It's all I know. Having said that, I freely admit that for my solve of the FTS yesterday I used the original 10 move sequence. It was super easy to remember. I'm not against anything to do with ultimate, I just like to restrict what I need to remember!

Konrad wrote:
I think the startips names need two identifiers combined: The face they are in and the dodecahedron corner name.
E.g. startip on face U at corner UFR. As we have two letter and single letter names for faces, we should better write a corner name like DR-BR-D because DRBRD would look confusing.
Anyway, a picture does explain it better :)

So would the sequence i found be U-UB -> U-FR -> DR-DR?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:34 pm 
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rline wrote:
...So would the sequence i found be U-UB -> U-FR -> DR-DR?

Unfortunately it would be more complex than this.
The first piece would be on face U at corner U-UL-UR.
(B is opposite to F)
These piece names are not covered by the discussed dodecahedron notation, because they are not general for all face turning dodecahedra.
As I said, a picture is clearer than a lengthy name scheme.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:01 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
rline wrote:
...So would the sequence i found be U-UB -> U-FR -> DR-DR?

Unfortunately it would be more complex than this.
The first piece would be on face U at corner U-UL-UR.
(B is opposite to F)
These piece names are not covered by the discussed dodecahedron notation, because they are not general for all face turning dodecahedra.
As I said, a picture is clearer than a lengthy name scheme.

Hi Konrad

I'm not understanding why my designation of U-UB for the first piece doesn't identify that piece. I guess I'm trying to think as simply as possible If we identify the face as U, then there are only 5 possibilities for the corner tip, assuming we're looking at the face from front on: U, BL, BR, FL, FR. So wouldn't U-U be enough? Is it because some faces have an edge at the top but others have a point?

I do agree that a picture is very simple to see, but I also like to have these things written as well.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:09 am 
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rline wrote:
I'm not understanding why my designation of U-UB for the first piece doesn't identify that piece.
Hi Rline,
Because there is no UB face. We can't just invent face names, otherwise the notation would be different for everybody (We are actually identifying a corner that the tip is touching). So we identify the face the sticker is on first, then we identify all other necessary faces in any order afterwards. So U: because the point is on U, UL & UR because it is in between both of those faces (there are 2 points on the U-UL intersection, so you can't just use 2 faces in your description)- so we get U-UL-UR. If you were describing an edge you would use 2 faces only, like: U-UL for example, especially if you were directly identifying the sticker on U; if just the edge itself, then UL-U is acceptable as well.

I hope that made sense.
Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:43 am 
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Burgo wrote:
rline wrote:
I'm not understanding why my designation of U-UB for the first piece doesn't identify that piece.
Hi Rline,
Because there is no UB face. We can't just invent face names, otherwise the notation would be different for everybody (We are actually identifying a corner that the tip is touching). So we identify the face the sticker is on first, then we identify all other necessary faces in any order afterwards. So U: because the point is on U, UL & UR because it is in between both of those faces (there are 2 points on the U-UL intersection, so you can't just use 2 faces in your description)- so we get U-UL-UR. If you were describing an edge you would use 2 faces only, like: U-UL for example, especially if you were directly identifying the sticker on U; if just the edge itself, then UL-U is acceptable as well.

I hope that made sense.
Cheers,
Burgo.

Ah, I see. Thanks for that explanation. That did make sense. I wasn't aware that we needed to "attach" a corner to its faces, although now that I think it through, I see we do this normally anyway. Like a UFR corner on a rubiks cube. Hmmm. So if I've got it, my sequence would be U-UL-UR -> U-F-R -> DR-D-BR.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:28 am 
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Hi Friends,
I had a few people ask me about doing the FIRST LAYER, so I wrote out this, maybe some others might like it if I share so:

1. MAKE STAR Locate the cream centre and make the cream star- 1st 5 tips placed. I like to `as a guide` I place the Cream centre on the DL face and locate a Cream star tip in the E layer, perform an E turn to place it and then a DL turn to setup for the next one.
2. 1ST FACE EDGES Keep Star in DL, place Cream Edge sticker in L-U: r’ u r u’ place next one in L-U, perform DL turns until target position is located at DL-F and continue.
3. 1ST ROW EDGES Keep Cream face in DL. Place the edge for F-DR in the U layer and turn it to U-F. If it’s incorrectly orientated, perform: Something like U2' R2' if an edge is in the way at FL then I will just do LD' U2' LD R2' or something like that (to put it in inverted).
4. 1ST ROW TIPS Keep Cream face in DL. To insert a tip into F-DL-DR place it in U-R-F and perform: R UL R’ UL’ and for the mirrored tips, mirror the sequence.
5. 1ST ROW CENTRES Now hold Cream face as D. To place the centres in the D Layer perform R U R’ and such.
6. 2ND ROW TIPS For the remaining tips in the D layer, make the Cream face the D face. Perform R2 to bring the target position BR-B-UR to the F-DL-DR position exchange it out with an E turn and replace it. So if you setup to have the target piece in the L-DL-BL position: R2 u’ R2’
To set up for it Sune will bring a tip down from U-F-L, and it will also take R-F-U and R-F-DR to U, so if you include the Sune mirror, 2 applications of Sune should be all you need to setup the majority of pieces into the E layer. If there is one that you need located in the E layer `upside down`, if you notice it early (check them first- or do one `section` at a time) you can temporarily pop a centre out to access it, there are ways, but you might as well just get it with a commutator.
7. UPPER CENTRES I was placing the upper-centres next, this is not the most efficient method, but some useful switches of the centres are the [1,1] commutator 2+2 swap, a 3 cycle from Sune U: R>U>L, and another F (UR L’ UR’ L) F’ (R L R L’): UR>UL>L.

It was a nice chance to use the new notation too :) .
Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:20 am 
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Burgo wrote:
Hi Friends,
I had a few people ask me about doing the FIRST LAYER, so I wrote out this, maybe some others might like it if I share so:

1. MAKE STAR Locate the cream centre and make the cream star- 1st 5 tips placed. ....
Hi Burgo,

I did not look at the details of your post, but I think you should describe your colour scheme whenever you are referencing pieces by colour.

There is no standard colour scheme for dodecahedra. Not even the twelve colours themselves are stanardized. (E.g. my mf8 Gigaminx from Mefferts has very nice colored stickers but different from the latest mf8 dodecahedra.)
People could try to follow Gelatinbrain as closely as possible or follow the Crazy Megaminx scheme.
Personally I use something close to Gelatinbrain but some colours from mf8 cannot be mapped. E.g. on Gelatinbrain there is no grey.

Do I guess correctly that you are using the Crazy Megaminx scheme?

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 Post subject: Re: mf8 Starminx II Black & Ice Purple Body (Face Turning)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:10 pm 
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MaeLSTRoM wrote:
EDIT2: After a bit of tensioning, I have managed to complete my first speedsolve of it. 32:48.17 :lol:


That's a good time for the first solve. I had like 42 minutes the first time I stopped the time.
I can't restrain myself from advertising my own topic that I started in the "solving puzzles" section at this point. :lol: There is just my own record, noone else posted a time so far. Just put your time there too, I would apreciate it! :lol:

EDIT: lol, I just highlighted MaeLSTRoM's line in his post and klicked on quote and it automatically put "Konrad" in the top of the quote. What's up with that? :lol: I just manually put in the right name now.

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 Post subject: Re: Starminx (face turning) Solving
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:51 pm 
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EDIT: Sorry Burgo, I somehow missed the fact that you had already explained something along these lines!

I've come up with a revised method of solving the starminx that, while still requires knowing how to solve the centers and tips with commutators in order to finish the solve, requires you to do them far fewer times. This might be helpful for people who don't particularly enjoy looking for commutator setup moves for the tips so much.

The basic idea is to solve half of the puzzle before switching to the "normal" method.

1. Solve 1 face: This should be relatively easy/intuitive if you start with a center, then do the 5 surrounding tips, and do the 5 edges last. Make this your bottom face (in my pictures, it would be the white face).

2. Solve the next 15 edges: These edges make up the 5 around the first face and the 10 around the "equator". You can do this like you normally would as with the pyraminx crystal edges.

3. Finish solving the bottom hemisphere with conjugates: Each of these sequences moves down a piece from the top face, so scanning is easy as you can just look at the top face for a tip/center that matches one of the 5 colors left in the bottom hemisphere, and then just rotate the top face to put the piece where it needs to be. Also, these sequences are very easy/intuitive to remember, as they all have the same structure... 1 or 2 setup moves, a (1:1) commutator on the top, and undo the setup move(s).

3a. Solve the 10 tips just below the equator: H'2,D,B',D',B,H2 (see Insert1.png)
3b. Solve the 10 tips around the bottom face: H',F',C,F,C',H (see Insert2.png)
3c. Solve the 5 centers of the bottom hemisphere: H',A',E',B,E,B',A,H (see Insert3.png)
3d. Solve the last 5 tips of those faces: H',I',F',C,F,C',I,H (see insert4.png)

Note: These 4 substeps must be done in this order for each face, but you can for example do 3d for one face while one of the other faces is still on 3a.

4. Solve the top half of the starminx using commutators as per usual (edges, centers, then tips).


As for how fast this method is... I think for most people it may be faster than the pure commutator approach. For me, although I haven't quite beaten my PR with this method, I am far more consistent with it since less of it has to do with "luck". For comparison sake, my PR is 14:31:13, and I consistently get sub-16 minutes with this new method (on an MF8 Starminx).


Attachments:
File comment: Gelatinbrain Notation
GB-Notation.png
GB-Notation.png [ 66.15 KiB | Viewed 4860 times ]
File comment: H'2,D,B',D',B,H2
Insert1.PNG
Insert1.PNG [ 53.22 KiB | Viewed 4860 times ]
File comment: H',F',C,F,C',H
Insert2.PNG
Insert2.PNG [ 54.86 KiB | Viewed 4860 times ]
File comment: H',A',E',B,E,B',A,H
Insert3.PNG
Insert3.PNG [ 53.39 KiB | Viewed 4860 times ]
File comment: H',I',F',C,F,C',I,H
Insert4.PNG
Insert4.PNG [ 53.4 KiB | Viewed 4860 times ]


Last edited by DKwan on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Starminx (face turning) Solving
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Hi DKwan

I too liked this method, but isn't it essentially the same as the method Burgo posted 3 posts above yours?

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 Post subject: Re: Starminx (face turning) Solving
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:24 pm 
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rline wrote:
I too liked this method, but isn't it essentially the same as the method Burgo posted 3 posts above yours?


Ah, it seems you are right. I didn't understand what he was explaining because of the notation. Anyway, although the basic idea is the same, the details aren't.


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 Post subject: Re: Starminx (face turning) Solving
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:15 pm 
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DKwan wrote:
Sorry Burgo, I somehow missed the fact that you had already explained something along these lines!
Don't worry, I'm not concerned for my ego, I just twist and chat for fun :) , it's good to see variations in the approach, I like your method, I always wondered, if I was fast, how a layers method would stack up in a timed comparison. You are incredibly fast :o .
Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Starminx (face turning) Solving
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:59 am 
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How to solve Starminx (face turning).

A. Solving centers.
B. Solving the edges.
Items A. and B. - look here (Stage 1. and Stage 2.).
C. Solving of "petals".
Alg 1 and Alg 2 - look here (Stage 3. and Stage 4.).


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