Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:30 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 152 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Talking, all about Bermuda Cubes. In my Opinion Bermuda Cubes are interesting enough, to open a thread.
At first I solve are the Mercury with one Triangle. This ist easy.
The second solve was the Venus. The venus is a little bit more difficult.

I made Videos about this cubes.

Bermuda Mercury:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFledMYJYAM

Bermuda Venus:
Interesting is the solution similar to the Roux method on Rubik's Cube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5zCpRe8ggs&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Cheers,
Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hello Friends,

does someone solve Earth Neptune or other ?
Earth with 2 Triangles is very hard. Perhaps Neptune with 3 Triangles is more easy than Earth ? On Earth you must turn 3 faces until it is possible to get a third free face around a corner.
I have no Idea to solve this cubes.

Help me please !

Cheers,
Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:07 am
Location: Germany, Bavaria
Hi Andrea,

I'm still waiting for my set of eight planets.
It is scaring that you find them so hard.
I'll start with Mercury and Venus and if I run into difficulties, I can look at your videos.
I hope that others will contribute as well.

_________________
My collection at: http://sites.google.com/site/twistykon/home


Last edited by Konrad on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hello,

after Mercury and Venus my third Bermuda Cube is Earth.

Earth has two triangles on adjacent faces. One oposite face, the orange, looks like a fisher cube. This configuration is very difficult. You must turn 3 faces until 3 adjacent free faces around a corner are posible. Its difficult enough to complete one layer. In the simulator from Bo Hu this configuration is not implemented.

Bermuda Earth is harder than Crazy Megaminx Earth and Mars, I think.
The first Cube that I can not solve after many hours. I have no idea how to solve it.

Perhaps one of the experts here in forum can help me.

Cheers,
Andrea

Attachment:
Earth2Layers.jpg
Earth2Layers.jpg [ 89.58 KiB | Viewed 11510 times ]


First try layer by layer begin with the orange face.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi Gentleman and Ladies,

I solved my Bermuda Cube Earth. First I build the green 2x3 block adjacent to the red face. After this I build the red block adjacent to the blue face. Then I insert the blue/yellow and blue/black piece.

The key is a special sequence that makes a clean 3 cycle of edges.
The sequence is in the way that one face only turns -90° and +90°.

The sequence:

Y' ( R2 U R2 U' ) x 5 y And variants of it.

Exchanges R/u -> F/U -> F/d -----> R/u

Example. Orange in right black on top with a solved cube.
Then R+ B- L- y'
( + means 45° clockwise - means 45° counterclockwise)

Now it's possible to do the sequence.
Then the reverse setup.

The orange face is the last layer. the blue face is the "help layer".

To flip orange edges, permute it in the help layer with the sequence and put it back from other direction.

Permutation of edges in last layer it possible with bring the edges in the blue "help layer".


Corners:
First orient the corners.
Orange in top
R+ D+
(R F' R' F ) x 2
D- R-
Turn U until the next cornerpiece comes to the front/right/up position and repeat the sequence.

Permuting the corners in the same way. Repalace x 2 with x 3 in the sequence.
This is called here in forum CPS, I think.

This Bermuda Earth Puzzle is hard to solve. I need many hours to make this solving ideas. Perhaps it helps someone.

Cheers,
Andrea

(Edit)
One useful sequence I add:
( right face green upper face orange and U-)

R2 D2 L2 D2 R2 U2

Exchanges the blue/yellow blue/black pieces (help layer) and the
top/back and top/front edgepiece.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:52 am
Quote:
I checked with the simulator by Bo Hu, and this is what I found:

The Mercury version is "one triangle #3"

Venus is "two triangles on opposite faces #3". Actually One of those triangle sides would need to be rotated by 180° to exactly match the picture on the templet but that doesn't change anything to the solution.

Earth is "two triangles on adjacent faces #2". At least solving wise. Here one of the faces in the simulator would need to be rotated 90° plus one side would need the 45° rotated cuts.

Mars is "three triangles not around a corner #1", and it exactly matches the template.

Jupiter is "three triangles around a corner #1", and it exactly matches the template.

Saturn is "four triangles #4", and it exactly matches the template.

Uranus is "four triangles #4", but one face must be rotated 90°. Again, this doesn't affect the solving.

Neptune is "three triangles around a corner #3", but two sides rotated 90°.

Here is the template:
Image

I personally don't like Saturn and Uranus, the only two with four trianlges for the simple fact that they are so bandaged by the triangles that one edgepiece is stuck and can never be moved. In the simulator it is always the orange-green edge piece (for all "four triangle versions" the simulator has.) I don't like that it can't be scrambled. One might as well bandage those two centers with the edgepiece and it would change nothing.
For the templet on Uranus it would be the green-red edge piece, on Saturn it would be the blue white one. It's always the one between the two normal sides. Actually an interesting fact in my eyes but maybe it's just logical. :? :roll: :D


This is what I had posted in the New puzzles section
I just feel like putting it here isn't all useless so I did.
I also found what you are saying above:

Quote:
I can definetely tell that Mercury is the easiest and now I am pretty sure that next comes Venus followed by Earth. (Just like in real life. :P)


I couldn't solve either venus or earth in the simulator (I don't have any physical version yet). I did however manage to get a couple of more pieces on venus than on earth. A whole 2 rows and some pieces in the top section.

Also I was impressed by your solution of Venus. I must admit though, that I didn't know what Roux method was. I left one of the triangular faces for last. and couldn't go on.

_________________
Life is simple.
eat. sleep. train. repeat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi alaskajoe and all other,

I agree. Mercury is the easiest, after that comes Venus.
Roux method is not useful on the Bermuda Cube in the bo hu simulator because the triangle are different oriented than in the physical cube.
The orientation of triangles cause a different blocking.
It's not nessesary to know the roux method. It's only blockbuilding right and left 2x3 block and the upper face and slice at finish.
Interesting is , that every Bermuda Cube has 20 moveable pieces different to bandaged cubes.
The Bermudas are very hard and interesting. I whish more postings about these puzzles. Where are the "crazy" cubers?

Cheers,
Andrea

:lol: Crazy Village is on Bermuda Islands :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:28 pm
Andrea wrote:
The Bermudas are very hard and interesting. I whish more postings about these puzzles. Where are the "crazy" cubers?

Hi Andrea,

I'm still undecided on this series of puzzles mainly because I am not too "crazy" about shape shifters. I became more intrigued after watching your tutorials. I just wish they were colored plastic. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
I solved Mercury and Venus.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Bermuda Earth Solution

Hi,

the video about the Bermuda Cube Earth is ready.

Earth is much more difficult than Mercury or Venus. So I split it in 3 parts.
There are interesting techniques to build blocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU-edRnMmQE&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


Chers,

Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
I solved Earth too.
IMHO Earth isn't much more difficult than Mercury or Venus.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Thanks for sharing your methods Andrea,

I really enjoy seeing such different approaches. Your methods for Mercury and Venus both differ from mine a fair bit, the consistent thing though is to build the 45deg blocks first and solve the rest around them. Just like you, in the Venus method, I had to include a 45deg block to place the corners, but I did it by using it in a setup move. I really liked your corners first approach, it fits well with the puzzle :D .

I have not attempted Earth yet.

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
OK, I've been playing with my Neptune now for a while and it's really difficult.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Hi Andrea,

I solved Earth this afternoon, what a beast!
The bandaged cubes can be frustrating.
I used the pure 3cycle RU' RU RU RU' R'U' R2 that we use on the crazy thread and an edges first method too.
To flip 2 edges place in FR and UF positions (orange F, blue U): (Setup F+ D- B-) R (RU' RU RU RU' R'U' R2) R' (Undo B+ D+ F-)
That was really the only difference other than a few small things, maybe there is less room for differences.
When we have been using the terms EPS (R'FRF' mirrors and inverses) and CPS (RU'L'U R'U'LU and similar) we are referring to Ultimate Solution: Edge / Corner Placing Sequence.
I will have a closer look at that little `2 edge swap` you were doing, in the video, I got an edge parity and moved my orange face 1 turn and re-solved all my orange edges, but I think on the video you did something else, I was only interested in keeping my edge 3cycles pure to avoid messing up the larger blocks.
Thanks for making the videos.

Cheers,
Burgo :D .

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi Burgo,

Yes, The Eart is a beast.


Burgo wrote:
I will have a closer look at that little `2 edge swap` you were doing, in the video, I got an edge parity and moved my orange face 1 turn and re-solved all my orange edges, but I think on the video you did something else, I was only interested in keeping my edge 3cycles pure to avoid messing up the larger blocks.
Thanks for making the videos.


In my first solves I went the same way. omg
Then the idea with the sune correct the parity ( exchange 2 edges).

Video part 2 at time ~ 7:30

The trick: save the triangle with R R+ U2 R' R- U2 R R+
( R+ denotes R 45 degrees clockwise
R- denotes R 45 degrees counterclockwise
e.G. R' R- turns R 135 ° counterclockwise. )

Then the sune R U2 R' U' R U' R'

and reverse the setup sequence R- R' U2 R+ R U2 R- R'

This is an easy way to exchange the front up with the left up edge piece.

Thanks for watching the video.

I tried to make clean 3 cycle with the sequence you posted.
Perhaps the ( R U2 R' U2) x5 has the advantage that the 3 pieces are in different faces. So less setup moves are needed.
The sequence ( orange right blue top) D2 L2 U L2 D2 make an edge 4 cycle. In combination with your 3 cycle in one face it's possible to use it for exchanging edges.
The problem for flipping is that the triangles must go back to its place.

Cheers,
Andrea

PS: Burgo, I am interested to your first Bermuda videos.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Hi Andrea,

VENUS (Updated and more detailed method on page 2, these are just notes)
I went a slightly different way for Venus, I will post an idea of what I was doing:
I did edges first.
Orange block - Red block (I wasn't using algos for those, I was just doing them intuitively).
Yellow as F, blue as U you can place all edges easily with L F L' or L (R'FRF') L' turns or M U M' etc and sune for the U layer.
To flip 2 edges, in UF & UR: RUR'U' L R'FRF' L'
Place corners with (R'FRF')X3 or variants, a setup may be neded eg L' or just U'RUR', it's also possible to do it on the back with y2 L' R as setup.
If you get a situation where you need a 2 swap, 3 swap, 2+2 swap that is not in the correct format, turn it into a 2 + 2 swap and solve with a setup that includes burying an unused corner in a stored block: eg
(Swap FR<>BR & FL<>BL): L- F L1.5+ F2 (R'FRF')X3 undo setup. This is the most common one.
You can also use (RU' RU RU RU' R'U' R2) for a pure 3cycle and do X or C corner rotations with sune, whatever you need, some setups as follows for orientation:
Orientate 2 corners (CHANGE CUBE POSITION) Red as F, Blue as U (orientates BL & BR) F1.5- U' Sune U2 y2 Sune Mirror U2 y2 U F1.5+ (sune=RU R'U R U2 R') (sune mirror=L'U' LU' L U2 L')
The same position and setup can be used for (RU' RU RU RU' R'U' R2)

EARTH
Quote:
I tried to make clean 3 cycle with the sequence you posted.
Perhaps the ( R U2 R' U2) x5 has the advantage that the 3 pieces are in different faces. So less setup moves are needed.
I think you sequence may be very handy later on when we tackle more heavily bandaged cubes, for example it will work on a triangle face as R, where mine won't.
I am using orange as F and Blue as U so the edges I exchange by just doing F turns into the cycle on U, the redundant piece is the one in U back, which fits perfectly with the cycle so I don't need really anything for setups, only the D- B- and undo.
Quote:
The problem for flipping is that the triangles must go back to its place.
I made an edit above to show the setup moves (it's blue as U orange as F), it is a pure 3cycle that flips 2 edges and touches nothing else :D , you can see early which ones need flipping.

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi Burgo,

thanks for your tip with the 3 cycle in one face. Ok, in knew this sequence but now I see how easy it is to use.

Very much easier than the ( R U2 R' U2) x 5 sequence.

Using this the solution is faster. I used the inverse of your sequence ( R2 U R U R' U' R' U' R' U R' ) , too. Sometimes it's useable without the "r" setup move.
It's useful to complete the positions.
It's nice to discuss here to get better solutions for puzzles.

Cheers,

Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:28 am
Location: Sweden
Hi!
I´m new at this forum and this is my first post.

I only have Jupiter but I have used the simulator by Bo Hu and solved one triangle #3, two triangles on opposite faces #3, two triangles on adjacent faces #2 and three triangles not around a corner #1. I have not tried four triangles yet.

Here´s how I solve Jupiter:
I start with place the Yellow-orange edge and then put together the pieces that belong to the blue 45 degree side and place it so the yellow-blue-orange corner is solved.
Then I turn the red and black center so the 90 degree corner point to black-red-green corner. Now I use this corner and the green side to put together the black-blue-red edge with black-red and black-blue corner and than place it at the black centers 45 degree side. Then I do the same with the black-green edge and associated corners and place this at the red 45 degree side(do F- F' R to see the oriantation).
Red is F and green is U and red and black still pointing at gree-red-black corner. I place red-yellow-green edge at F-R. Now I orient the four edge pieces in U (do F- F' R to see how they should be). I use (R'FRF'U') x 4. If two edges is right I place them FU and RU and do this.
I orient the green-red corner (sune is useful) and place it with (R'FRF') x 3. Then I orient the four corners in U with sune(or combinations of sune).
Now it´s just to permute U. I use a combination of sune to rotate RU-FU-LU edges (R U R' U R 2U R F' U' F U' F' 2U F) and for the corners ((R'FRF')x3 U' (R'FRF')x3 U' (R'FRF')x3 2U). This rotate UFR-URB-UBL.
Now do F- F' R.
Solved

I hope you´ll understand.

/Andreas Andersson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
I seem I know as to solve Mars, Jupiter and Neptune


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Win712 wrote:
I seem I know as to solve Mars, Jupiter and Neptune


Neptune may as well be impossible for all the progress I've made. I've got the weird black triangle edges and corner and a couple more random black pieces, but that's about it. Every time I think I see a way to build a block, either the moves are blocked or it messes up what I've already got. Ugh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Gooday other fellow travellers in the triangle,

Welcome Andreas, I have not twisted Jupiter yet so I will look at your method after :D .

Sorry Merlintocs, I decieded to go with Mars first, some hints will come I'm sure, can you start with another bermuda and build up to it?

Last night I solved Mars :D .
I don't know if we care about *spoilers* here but I won't give specifics away yet:

MARS (notes)
After the 3 blocks do the green/red edge.
I quickly cycled edges in with sune to check for edge parity (and flipped 2 edges with the aid of a setup and EPS sequence).
Then placed corners with EPSx3 (and my little trick of storing a corner).
Then orientate corners with Sune.
Then re-place edges with Andrea's (R U2 R' U2) x5.

That is pretty close to a spoil, but I will give more details as I re-solve it and take notes later.
Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
I couldn't resist,

Here is my current progress with Neptune and a hint about how I ended up going about it.
I was hoping I would get a method more `related` to the puzzle, but I think this is the best way, unfortunately it is visually terrible :( .

(I put what I think is a better method for Neptune on page 2)
Cheers,
Burgo.


Attachments:
Neptune Bermuda.jpg
Neptune Bermuda.jpg [ 391.52 KiB | Viewed 10907 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hello together, welcome to forum Andreas,

my next candidate was Bermuda Neptune. It's much easier than I thought. I solved it very fast dirctly after the first scramble.

Asume U R F are triangle faces.
Solving method:

Corners first !
1) solve the complete triangles u/l/b , f/l/d and r/b/d
Solve the corner l/b/d in correct orientation.
Then I had a situation that 4 corners permuted cyclic. After R U ' R' U sequences it goes to a situation where 2 corners are exchanged.
To solve this parity:
Bring the 2 corners to the back face and turn this face 90 ° this solves the parity. After this make a corner 3 cycle.

Cornerorientation:
(R U' R' U) x 2 orients 4 corners. It's possible to solve al that only 2 corners are wrong.
Bring this corners to back face and make sunes to orient this 2 corners.

Next step place edges:

Sune right + sune left = clean 3 cycle in one face !

Combine with the (R U2 R' U2) x 5 sequence.

2 edges are flipped. Bring it to back face, choose the setup moves in the way , thay one of them changes the orientation.
Use the sune sequence to make a 3 cycle.
Bring the pieces back.
Now make different setup moves to solve the 3 pieces withe the ( R U2 R' U2) x 5 sequence.

Perhaps my description is difficult. I can not better explain it.

There are some sequences that I found to solve it with this method.
It's recommended to practice it on a Rubik's Cube.

The sequences:

( the sequences operate with the back face, the back face becomes U)
U= yellow R=blue F= orange

Corner 3 cycle
1)
R L' (setup)

U'
( R' L R L') x3
U
( R' L R L') x3
U
( R' L R L') x3
U'

L R' ( undo setup)

3 cycle l/b/u f/r/u r/f/d

2)
R L'
( R' L R L') x3
U2
( R' L R L') x3
U2
L R'

3 cycle l/b/u f/d/l r/d/b

Variants of them can cycle every 3 corners.


Very nice is the right/left sune sequence:
( the left/right sune sequence permutes in the other direction)

A)
R L' (setup)

R U R' U R U2 R'
F' U F U F' U2 F

L R'

3 cylce l/u, f/r , d/r

Or
B)
R L'
(R U2 R'U2) x 5
L R'

Same corners but in diferent way.
cycle with a and "recycle" with B flips 2 edges.


I don't know if someone understand my solution ,
but perhaps it helps to try this sequences and the rest is easy.

Cheers,
Andrea


Last edited by Andrea on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:48 am, edited 5 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi Burgo,

writing my solution need much time. I write it while you write your posting. I read your postig after writing my posting.
Perhaps my solution helps a little. In my opinion Neptune is easier than Earth.

Cheers,
Andrea


Last edited by Andrea on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
I solved Mars!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hello Mars solver,

is mars more hard than Neptune or Earth ?

Cheers,

Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
Andrea wrote:
Hello Mars solver,

is mars more hard than Neptune or Earth ?

Cheers,

Andrea

Hi!
Mars is more hard then Earth and so difficult as Neptune and Jupiter.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Hi Andrea,

(I put what I think is a better method for Neptune on page 2, these are just notes)
I used my Mars method to solve Neptune. My Mars method is diredtly above my Neptune method^^.
Actually I solved Mars first, it is easier than Neptune with the way I did it, I will read your method, maybe it is more intuitive for the puzzle.
Great respect to your work, I always learn from you :D .

I know you had a sequence for swapping 2 corners, but I think it rotates all 4 as well, by doing EPSx3 sequences I am able to keep the edges in place while I move the corners (to avoid edge parity), once the corners are in place Sune will not move them during orientation so edge parity is maintained, then I could use your pure 3cycle to move edges back. This is my reasoning for solving like this.

Here are some EPSx3 2+2 corner tradeouts that I used for both puzzles:

Mars: Blue as F, Orange as U (Note- I see F normally as Green but do y2 to do these sequences).
Neptune: Orange as F, Green as U (F L2 from the standard position- Note: I see the F normally as Red but do y2 to do these sequences).
ULB<>ULF + BLD<>BRU (standard type EPSx3 2+2 swap): (L'L-) U (L'L-) (F'LFL')X3 (LL+) U' (LL+)
BLU<>BRU + LFU<>LBD (standard type EPS 2+2 swap): U'L (F'LFL')X3 L'U
There are other EPSx3 sequences available but they are more intuitive (and not worth writing).

And on Neptune the sequence for inserting the red/yellow edge:
Place the edge above the yellow centre orientated correctly and perform (Red F, Green U): R2 B2 D (L) D' B2 R2

The 2 edge flipping sequence is RUR'U' and then EPS.

Is Win712 going to share anything?

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
Burgo wrote:
Is Win712 going to share anything?

Cheers,
Burgo.



My English is very bad, but I will try.
I will try to generalize my experience.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Win712 wrote:

My English is very bad, but I will try.
I will try to generalize my experience.
Maybe you can try `google translate`so you can write in Russian first? Then language will not be a barrier both ways. It should be OK?
At least notation is universal :D .
I notice you are a fairly new member: welcome :D .

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:07 am
Location: Germany, Bavaria
Win712 wrote:
...My English is very bad, but I will try.
I will try to generalize my experience.
Maybe, somebody could offer help, if we knew your native language?
I can offer German to English translation only :)
Unfortunately, I'm still waiting for my 8-planet-parcel (ordered October 15th, but I have received a single puzzle ordered on October 20th from the same company :( Maybe, it is a customs problem? Andrea, have you had problems with the customs (Deutscher Zoll)?)

I'm getting really jealous of you all, but I have not looked at anything of your conversations in detail.
My general impression is, that these are even harder than the Crazy planets.
What do you say?

_________________
My collection at: http://sites.google.com/site/twistykon/home


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi Konrad,

Quote:
Andrea, have you had problems with the customs


The last order ( Bermuda +2 crazy tets), I had no problem with it. The order before ( crazy Megaminx per speedpost) I must go to the custom office and pay, so the shipping time was very long. What about your order ? Had you get a letter from post ?


Cheers,
Andrea


Last edited by Andrea on Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi Win712,
welcome to forum. Perhaps you use only a few easy words.
My english is very bad.


Burgo,

I see, your solution is easier than mine. If edges fliped between the 3 trianglefaces its easier to make eps and the CPS.I see in on second solve.

But the CPS is more difficult. So I tried some sequences on Rubik's Cube and wrote it down.

Is there an easier system/ rule to permute corners? In CPS 2 adjacent and 2 diagonal corners exchange, but here in the same face.
Can you explain it easy?

Cheers,
Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:03 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
In a Chinese forum there is a thread http://bbs.mf8-china.com/viewthread.php?tid=78574, in which there are links to many types of scrambled Bermuda cubes in the Java form.
For example, (21) is a Bermuda cube with 4 triangular center pieces.http://bbs.mf8-china.com/viewthread.php?tid=77952

Some people, including me, have solved Bermuda cubes with 1 to 4 triangular center pieces there.

_________________
Don't read this signature.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Hi Konrad,

I don't think they are harder than the crazy planets. Maybe I have more experience now, but all of the block building I have been doing with intuition only. They are different, for sure. The blocking, for example, has a different feel, it can be frustrating. I have enjoyed them more than I thought I would, they are quickly addictive.

I have solved 5 and I am half way through Jupiter (but it's my bedtime :( ), I think Saturn and Uranus are heavily bandaged and some scrambling will not be possible? They may not be as hard? Jupiter is getting hard with many things blocked, but maybe I'm tired :wink: .

Hi Andrea,
Quote:
Is there an easier system/ rule to permute corners? In CPS 2 adjacent and 2 diagonal corners exchange, but here in the same face.
Can you explain it easy?
You are right, it is hard to explain, but not real hard to do. Have you tried the sequences I put above^^ Using the setups and `storing a corner` gives a new arrangement of corners. Any arrangement of 4 corners unsolved will be a 2+2 swap, and then you just setup for an EPSx3 sequence in one of the positions (a few setup moves might be needed to place them in the right configuration). You can just place 1 corner to check if there are 4 other corners unplaced (if I see 2 or 3 corners placed I just break it up). I don't think placing all edges first is necessary, but it has helped me to visualise it while I am making the methods: I think it will be even easier than what I am currently doing.

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Wow, a lot of progress in this thread since last night. I'm going to have to try again tonight with my Neptune and see what I can do. Unfortunately it exploded last night mid-turn, so I just put it all back together solved and put it on the shelf. I'll have to start fresh again. That's OK though, since I hadn't made a whole lot of progress anyway...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi Burgo,

Quote:
Neptune: Orange as F, Green as U (F2 L2 from the standard position- Note: I see the F normally as Red but do y2 to do these sequences).
ULB<>ULF + BLD<>BRU (standard type EPSx3 2+2 swap): L1.5- U L1.5+ (F'LFL')X3 L1.5+ U' L1.5-
BLU<>BRU + LFU<>LBD (standard type EPS 2+2 swap): U'L (F'LFL')X3 L'U


Yes, I tried your sequences, but I cannot execute them. Perhaps I don't understand your configuration or notation.

My invented notation posted Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:07 pm has the advantage that it's a subgroup of rubiks cube , so the sequences exclusive setup can executed on Rubic's Cube.

What is L1.5- ? I guess L L- ? ( L ccw 90° and L ccw 45°) ?

My solution for flipping the two blue edges with front face= blue top face = red ( f r and d f)
F' R sune r sune l R' F
then
R F' (R U2 R' U2) x 5 F R'

write out

F' R R U R' U R U2 R'
F' U' F U' F' U2 F R' F
R F' ( R U2 R' U2) x 5 F R'

all without 45 (+/-) degrees turns.
Cheers,
Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Hi Andrea,
Quote:
What is L1.5- ? I guess L L- ? ( L ccw 90° and L ccw 45°) ?
Yes, but it would be L’L- I think. Sorry, that was my misinterpretation of your notation. You must remember, I am a very right mode thinker, this is the kind of mistake I make without thinking.

I will explain the Mars and Neptune sequences clearer:
I put what I think is a better method for Neptune on page 2.
I solved Mars first and viewed the puzzle with Green F/ Orange U. When I solved Neptune, I quickly noticed that [with Red F/ Green U `and with B R2 applied`], it was the equivalent of Mars for the last part. So I solved them with the same method. Visualising Neptune was harder, but I quickly got used to it with the initial help of my diagram^^.

I will refer to the photographs below for `starting positions` for the sequences (cubes in order [A] [b] [C] [D] ):

Flipping 2 edges at UB & UR:
Starting positions (Neptune[A] Red F) & (Mars[B] Green F):
RUR’U’ (y2 L [setup]) (F’LFL’ [EPS]) (L' y2 [undo setup])
EDIT: Actually (I don't know how I missed it) you can just do FURU'R'F' on these cubes (Mars White as F, Orange as U).

Some switching 2+2 setups:
(Neptune[C] Orange F) & (Mars[D] Blue F)
ULB<>ULF + BLD<>BRU (standard type EPSx3 2+2 swap): (L’L-) U (L'L-) (F'LFL')X3 (LL+) U' (LL+)
BLU<>BRU + LFU<>LBD (standard type EPS 2+2 swap): U'L (F'LFL')X3 L'U

I hope this makes it clearer, I didn’t realise I was being cryptic with the `2 edge flipping sequence` because I thought the idea was the same for what I did with Venus, but when I looked closer I saw it needed explaining further. These were just my notes (I haven’t really developed anything perfect, it’s a work in progress).

Cheers,
Burgo.


Attachments:
Neptune & Mars Bermudas.jpg
Neptune & Mars Bermudas.jpg [ 194.78 KiB | Viewed 10272 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Hi Burgo,

Burgo wrote:
Yes, but it would be L’L- I think.


Yes.
L' turns ccw 90 °
L- turns ccw 45 °
Is this notation ok ?

Thanks for your work and the pictures. I tried it. But I could not do it.
Perhaps I'm silly. I use only the Neptune.
The Mars will be my next Bermuda Cube.
It's possible to make 3 edgecycles and orient the corners with only the 3 triangle faces, but it is very hard.
So, I use sunes to orient corners.(one sune turns 3 corners in the same way ) I use (R F' R' F)x2 and variants, too.
The sunes destroy edges. So I solve the corners first. The first 4 corners I make with intuition / CPS/ my sequences.
Perhaps you can show your solution per video ?

Cheers,
Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
Just now I solved Neptune! (+ to Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Hi Friends,
Tonight I tried Jupiter, I think it's hard.
I got very close but in the end I got an edge parity and this was the only thing that stopped the solve. But I messed it up a bit trying a few things out so I put it aside. At least I know I can try for 50/50 :lol: . Andreas Andersson has posted a method, but I haven't read it yet.
Your notation is good Andrea, you will like Mars. Some of my method will become clearer when you do Mars, you will understand then.
I can't make videos at the moment, for about a month, sorry, just not much spare time.
Congratulations for Neptune Win712.
Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
Theoretically I know as to solve Jupiter. It is similar on the Neptune with some distinctions in the beginning.
In the evening I will try to solve it..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
Yes!!! I solved Jupiter (+ to Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Neptune)!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Quote:
Yes!!! I solved Jupiter (+ to Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Neptune)!


Congratulations


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:46 pm
Location: Evanston, IL
I am very confused right now. I ordered a Venus Bermuda Cube, but what I got is not the same as the puzzle in Andrea's video. Her cube has a middle layer that is like a 3x3. Mine has a middle layer like a Fisher Cube! The parts attached to the core (the centers) look like 3x3 edges on the outside, and vice versa. I have attached pictures.

Has anyone else seen this happen?

Attachment:
SANY1733.JPG
SANY1733.JPG [ 2.07 MiB | Viewed 10639 times ]
Attachment:
SANY1734.JPG
SANY1734.JPG [ 2.16 MiB | Viewed 10639 times ]
Attachment:
SANY1735.JPG
SANY1735.JPG [ 2.08 MiB | Viewed 10639 times ]


Eitan

_________________
Eitan = "EIGHT-ahn"
Buy a Radio Cube 3! Only $150 at Eitan's Shapeways Shop
Check out my video: Twisty Puzzles a la Vi



Last edited by pirsquared on Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:37 am
Location: Germany
Quote:
I ordered a Venus Bermuda Cube, but what I got is not the same as the puzzle in Andrea's video. His cube has a middle layer that is like a 3x3. Mine has a middle layer like a Fisher Cube!


Very interesting this version. A fisher cube with triangles. Is it hard to solve ? Want you send it back ?


Cheers,
Andrea


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Win712 wrote:
Yes!!! I solved Jupiter (+ to Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Neptune)!
Congratulations Win712, I woke up this morning with an idea, I will solve it this afternoon :wink: . Then I have solved the same puzzles as you so far :D .

Wow Eitan, that is not how I remember the configuration :shock: . I will disassemble mine when I get home.

EDIT: I just disassembled mine, and that is not just a different assembly (at first I thought the edges might split and insert the screw), but they had to cut and past to make that, the centre has to lock in to become an edge. I think you were sent a prototype by mistake. It might be worth something?! You got the mystery-bag :D , congratulations.. yes, what is the solve like?

I did a similar thing when I made `this` a while back (I haven't finished the opposite one yet, but I have the bits almost ready to glue):

Cheers,
Burgo.


Attachments:
Fisher Mod.jpg
Fisher Mod.jpg [ 200.41 KiB | Viewed 10581 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
To my fellow travellers lost in The Triangle,

(I have posted what I think is a better method for Jupiter on page 2 also, this still works if you want to try it :) )
I have just sat down and solved Jupiter with my idea.
My idea involves a few possible setups (after the blocks are built) that allow many sequences.
The sequences can be visually harder to complete because the configuration needs to be taken into account.
I don't know if it is the best way yet because it can be confusing and I found it difficult.
I will just put the setups:

Red as F, Green as U:
R' (FF+) U2 (FF+) U2 (F'F-) so you can do sune, sune mirrored (place edges and orientate corners).

(R+) (FF+) R U' (RR+) so you can do EPS in `any direction` (and flip 2 edges, edge 3 cycle if you want), EPSx3 (corner 2+2 swap), 3cycle with EPSx3 (if you include the triangle-corner in the sequences).

I have just listed the possibilities, not the solution, but you will see the way that I went, I think (or make your own way :wink: ).

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:46 am
Today I tried to find the decision of assemblage of Uranus.
In my opinion Uranus and Saturn the most difficult Bermudas cubes. They gather approximately equally. Uranus is hardly more convenient.
I will try to solve Uranus and Saturn today or tomorrow.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Solving Bermuda Cubes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Hi,

I solved Uranus last night after I finished with Saturn, actually, I found it quite easy and solved most of it with intuition. In the end I just had to find a new corner orientation method, but that was not too hard. It's almost too obvious to post (I don't want to spoil too much). One hint is to make sure you start with the green/red edge piece :wink: . If you don't solve that first the whole puzzle is unsolvable :lol: .

The reason the methods are all `a work in progress` is because of things like this corner orientation sequence, it can be used on earlier puzzles, maybe to make some things smoother, now that we are forced to discover it.

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 152 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group