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 Post subject: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:12 pm 
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alaskajoe wrote:
Chopasaurus plus megaminx is way to much, even for Eric. :lol:
I got to thinking about this. Is it possible to get a Chopasaurus into the state it would be in if a Megaminx turn had been made? What if it was super-stickered? If the answer is yes why would anyone want to add Megaminx turns to a Chopasaurus... it would just make the puzzle easier? I don't know the answer to these questions and I'm not sure this is the best thread to ask them in but I'm very curious.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The "hints of secret ideas" thread!!! :-)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:14 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
alaskajoe wrote:
Chopasaurus plus megaminx is way to much, even for Eric. :lol:
I got to thinking about this. Is it possible to get a Chopasaurus into the state it would be in if a Megaminx turn had been made? What if it was super-stickered? If the answer is yes why would anyone want to add Megaminx turns to a Chopasaurus... it would just make the puzzle easier? I don't know the answer to these questions and I'm not sure this is the best thread to ask them in but I'm very curious.

Carl


No Carl it would not make it easier, because the chopasaurus turns can result to red-red megaminx edges and it also scrambles the megaminx centers :)

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 Post subject: Re: The "hints of secret ideas" thread!!! :-)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:38 pm 
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RubixFreakGreg wrote:
No Carl it would not make it easier, because the chopasaurus turns can result to red-red megaminx edges and it also scrambles the megaminx centers :)
I agree that adding the Chopasaurus turns to a Megaminx makes for a harder puzzle. That's not what I asked. Does adding the Megaminx turns to a Chopasaurus make for a harder puzzle? If a sequence of turns on a Chopasaurus can result in the edges, corners, and face center being rotated by 72 degrees on just one face then the answer is no. You've just replaced that sequence of turns with one turn and thus its easier. I don't know is such a sequence exists or not but I'd love to know.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:56 am 
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I think I can say pretty definitively (ignoring jumbling) that adding Megaminx turns to a Chopasaurus makes it easier.

In terms of permutations the Megaminx doesn't add anything unless you consider center orientation. Adding the Megaminx cuts allows a single center to be twisted whereas on the Chopasaurus the total twist of the centers is 0 mod 5. This single center twist can be fixed with Megaminx-only moves though.

As for solving the Megaminx+Chopasaurus, the Megaminx allows you to solve corners intuitively or to use [[1:1],1] (8-move) commutators. Without the Megaminx turns the best you can do is [[1,1],1] (10-moves) and the pieces are more spread out and the setups are harder. Orientation of all but the last corner is also quite a bit easier too.

You still have to use Chopasaurus cuts to solve the center permutation and the Megaminx cuts add nothing to help. Megaminx cuts make center orientation much easier.

For solving the Chopasaurus points (half a Megaminx edge), the best known routine (per Julian) is [7,1] (16-moves). The best routine I know is [[1:[1:[1,1]]],1] (18-moves) and both are quite hard to find. Adding the Megaminx cuts I see a trivial [[1:[1:1]],1] (12-moves) and suspect if I had a playable puzzle I could find a [[1:1],1] (8-moves).


For the hybrid puzzles where you have some combination of moves from {face, vertex, edge} the rule of thumb is usually that the combination is easier than either by themselves. Sometimes there are exceptions but they tend to happen when you combine two very shallow cut puzzles or two fully deep-cut puzzles.

It is almost always the case that adding a shallow cut puzzle to a deep cut one makes the deep cut puzzle much easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:09 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
If a sequence of turns on a Chopasaurus can result in the edges, corners, and face center being rotated by 72 degrees on just one face then the answer is no. You've just replaced that sequence of turns with one turn and thus its easier. I don't know is such a sequence exists or not but I'd love to know.
Without super stickers on the centers you can't see the center orientation and such a routine does exist. I could find it for you using Gelatinbrain's 1.2.9 puzzle but it would be several hundred moves long. With visible center orientations the best you can do is rotate everything around the center without twisting the center.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:17 am 
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I know how to solve the chopasaurus corners but nothing else on it. I haven't ever seriously attempted to find the whole solution and do it on gelatinbrain's applet. I think the most benefit of adding the megaminx cuts would be the much easier setupmoves and freedom. That could just be me though. By saying I know how to solve the corners I don't even say that I could in a reasonable amount of moves and time. I have a routine but that's it. Just like with the 24 cube. I know 2 different pure 3 cycles but still never solved it.
I was sure that you had algs for the points and centers on the chopasaurus already for some longer time but just never did it, Brandon. I have been waiting for the day you solve it and the 24 cube too for some time now. :roll:

wwwmwww wrote:
[Split from here]
alaskajoe wrote:
Chopasaurus plus megaminx is way to much, even for Eric. :lol:
I got to thinking about this. Is it possible to get a Chopasaurus into the state it would be in if a Megaminx turn had been made? What if it was super-stickered? If the answer is yes why would anyone want to add Megaminx turns to a Chopasaurus... it would just make the puzzle easier? I don't know the answer to these questions and I'm not sure this is the best thread to ask them in but I'm very curious.

Carl


I just want to say that "too much" in my sentence was solely adressing the mechanical feat that the creation of such a puzzle would be. I didn't think it would be harder to solve. I am just really certain it would make the design even more difficult. Just wanted to add that. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:40 am 
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alaskajoe wrote:
alaskajoe wrote:
Chopasaurus plus megaminx is way to much, even for Eric. :lol:
I just want to say that "too much" in my sentence was solely adressing the mechanical feat that the creation of such a puzzle would be. I didn't think it would be harder to solve. I am just really certain it would make the design even more difficult. Just wanted to add that. :D
Oh that was clear to me, but maybe I created some confusion there. I was the one curious about the solving difficulty. I generally prefer design challenges which make puzzles harder to solve. Being that I consider myself a better designer then a solver I must confess I don't always know the answer to that before hand myself. And true it may be a very fun engineering challenge to try and merge these two puzzles. But just from a puzzle stand point I think I'd prefer a Chopasaurus over a Chopasaurus plus a Megaminx. Though I sersiously doubt I could slove either in any sort of reasonable time frame.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:51 am 
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about Solve this puzzle:
Chopasaurus (my old name HalfMinx) without jumbling - very hard puzzle! I first solver for this puzzle! :lol:
Chopasaurus plus Megaminx - medium puzzle!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:09 am 
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alaskajoe wrote:
I know how to solve the chopasaurus corners but nothing else on it. I haven't ever seriously attempted to find the whole solution and do it on gelatinbrain's applet. I think the most benefit of adding the megaminx cuts would be the much easier setupmoves and freedom. That could just be me though. By saying I know how to solve the corners I don't even say that I could in a reasonable amount of moves and time. I have a routine but that's it. Just like with the 24 cube. I know 2 different pure 3 cycles but still never solved it.
I was sure that you had algs for the points and centers on the chopasaurus already for some longer time but just never did it, Brandon. I have been waiting for the day you solve it and the 24 cube too for some time now. :roll:

The Chopasaurus, Big Chop, and Little Chop are probably the hardest "traditional" puzzles Gelatinbrain has made. I just recently found the point routine for the Chopasaurus (at the encouragement of a fellow solver). I have tried but not yet succeeded in finding a Big Chop routine but I have only tried a few times. I did recently find a [18,3] (42-moves) routine for the Little Chop but I haven't put a lot of work into finding a shorter one.

I don't feel comfortable solving puzzles with routines found by a computer unless I have found a short routine by hand.

My current priority is to finish off the 3.4.X series and hopefully take all of the move-count records. Then I want to finish off 1.2.{7,8,9} and then work on the edge-turning cubes. I already know how to solve most of the traditional puzzles so it's mostly just a matter of finding an efficient solving order so that I have some hope at the move-count record.

For the purpose of this post a "traditional" puzzle is a doctrinaire puzzle without any stored cuts.

I certainly would enjoy more hybrid puzzles such as the Chopasaurus + Megaminx. I feel guilty asking for more puzzles though when I haven't even solved 50% of the ones available.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:14 am 
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grigr wrote:
about Solve this puzzle:
Chopasaurus (my old name HalfMinx) without jumbling - very hard puzzle! I first solver for this puzzle! :lol:
A very impressive achievement. Do you have any feel for how what jumbling would add to the routine finding? I suspect with jumbling it might be possible to find a shorter routine for the 60 points. Finding that routine though could be very hard.

Unfortunately the due to the complexity of the Chopasaurus, it is probably one of those puzzles that almost none of us will every get a chance to play with or own. It sure would be neat if somebody could find a way to simulate jumbling on a computer in a natural and easily usable way.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:44 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
In terms of permutations the Megaminx doesn't add anything unless you consider center orientation. Adding the Megaminx cuts allows a single center to be twisted whereas on the Chopasaurus the total twist of the centers is 0 mod 5.
Does this comment also cover jumbling on the Chopasaurus? Just curious if jumbling allows for total twist of the centers to reach some states that would be unreachable without it. And maybe a more general question, while in the form of a dodecahedron are there states that are reachable only with jumbling? Or are all reachable states reachable without jumbling?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Chopasaurus plus Megaminx: Harder or easier?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:58 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
alaskajoe wrote:
I know how to solve the chopasaurus corners but nothing else on it. I haven't ever seriously attempted to find the whole solution and do it on gelatinbrain's applet. I think the most benefit of adding the megaminx cuts would be the much easier setupmoves and freedom. That could just be me though. By saying I know how to solve the corners I don't even say that I could in a reasonable amount of moves and time. I have a routine but that's it. Just like with the 24 cube. I know 2 different pure 3 cycles but still never solved it.
I was sure that you had algs for the points and centers on the chopasaurus already for some longer time but just never did it, Brandon. I have been waiting for the day you solve it and the 24 cube too for some time now. :roll:

The Chopasaurus, Big Chop, and Little Chop are probably the hardest "traditional" puzzles Gelatinbrain has made. I just recently found the point routine for the Chopasaurus (at the encouragement of a fellow solver). I have tried but not yet succeeded in finding a Big Chop routine but I have only tried a few times. I did recently find a [18,3] (42-moves) routine for the Little Chop but I haven't put a lot of work into finding a shorter one.

I don't feel comfortable solving puzzles with routines found by a computer unless I have found a short routine by hand.

My current priority is to finish off the 3.4.X series and hopefully take all of the move-count records. Then I want to finish off 1.2.{7,8,9} and then work on the edge-turning cubes. I already know how to solve most of the traditional puzzles so it's mostly just a matter of finding an efficient solving order so that I have some hope at the move-count record.

For the purpose of this post a "traditional" puzzle is a doctrinaire puzzle without any stored cuts.

I certainly would enjoy more hybrid puzzles such as the Chopasaurus + Megaminx. I feel guilty asking for more puzzles though when I haven't even solved 50% of the ones available.


I guess we get a bit off topic now but I just wanted to show off with the fact that I even have a big chop pure 3 cycle. However it's a 64 move and found by virtually pure randomness. :lol: So I won't get into it and copy paste until I'm done. My little chop algs were a 48 move that was random too and from that I just made the other one which is a [48.1] and much better to handle than the other one it seemed as far as setup moves are concerned. I didn't save them anywhere though.

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