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 Post subject: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:13 pm 
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I need help getting the last set of centers.

I get to something like this: (three white on top and cant get the fourth)
Image
The picture is one that I got off of google and painted to show the problem (its not my cube), there are more pieces mixed up on my cube but I have the whole bottom half and I am on the UP centers.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:14 pm 
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I presume it was jumbled. Can we see the other sides? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:15 pm 
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I assume you haven't played with a Helicopter Cube before? That position can only be solved by jumbling.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:26 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
played with a Helicopter Cube before? That position can only be solved by jumbling.

Your right I never used a helicopter cube before. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Was I not supposed to jumble it? :?


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:45 pm 
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That's a bit like saying "aren't I allowed to do this move?" Of course you are, provided that you don't break the puzzle. :lol:

Solving the jumbled puzzle isn't too hard, but unfortunately there aren't many tutorials for it. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Luke wrote:
That's a bit like saying "aren't I allowed to do this move?" Of course you are, provided that you don't break the puzzle. :lol:

Solving the jumbled puzzle isn't too hard, but unfortunately there aren't many tutorials for it. :(

Ok thanks, I guess I will just rejumble it and try solving it again or hopefully find a solution. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:58 pm 
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We could help a lot more if you used a picture of your cube so we knew what was solved or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:26 pm 
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Joe wrote:
Ok thanks, I guess I will just rejumble it and try solving it again or hopefully find a solution. :)
This won't work at all. It isn't like a 50/50 parity case where re-scrambling is a viable option. You have moved triangles out of their standard orbits and the chance of you jumbling and randomly and getting them back into their right orbits is nil. You need to solve this position logically.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:30 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
We could help a lot more if you used a picture of your cube so we knew what was solved or not.

I dont have a camera at the moment, so I will post some pictures of it when I get back home.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:08 pm 
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That's my Curvy Copter photo you have painted so cruelly. :lol: :lol:

I agree with the others, that we need real pictures to help you.
First, you should understand the situation without jumbling:
The 24 triangular face pieces live in four orbits, 6 triangles each. Whenever we see two triangles of the same colour that can go to the same location, we know that jumbling has taken place.
You need jumbling moves to swap centre pieces between the orbits.
Whenever the orbits have been mixed up heavily, you will need several jumbling sequences to restore all orbits.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Figured I'd post my question here. Is it possible to have 2 middle edges flipped and everything else solved? I can't tell if this is possible or if I put the edges in wrong after they popped.

As far as the edge popping, hows everyone fixing that?


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Yes, you can have two middle edges flipped (or any even number for that matter). Finding an algorithm to flip just two edges isn't too difficult, just play around with it and you'll find one sooner or later. Good luck!

Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Thanks, I'll see what I can come up with.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:25 pm 
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When I got my helicopter cube (reg) a while ago, I managed to solve the helicopter cube by myself (very proud moment for me :D )- and only a few weeks ago I worked out how to solve it when its been jumbled- again all by myself. While thats not that impressive on TP, it is to me because frankly I'm an idiot :lol:

Seriously though, I found that the best way to work it out is to get a solved helicopter cube, and do just one jumble move. That really helps you see exactly how the pieces move around- and from there you can work out a simple algorithm to swap a few parts around. The best tool is experience, and it is really satisfying to learn how to solve a puzzle all by yourself. I highly recommend that you get yourself a regular helicopter cube (They are a little easier- no centres to solve) and learn to solve it yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Oddly enough, I've solved this and helicopter cube without any real issues, until this 2 edges flipped thing. I keep getting it, I think I've straightened out, and bam, got it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:01 pm 
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Perhaps you should post a net, if you can't get a camera, and fill in each piece with its color. Its kinda crucial to be able to see the other sides of the puzzle.

I would make one and post it here, for you to download and edit, but to be honest it would be so easy to do I think you could do it yourself :P.

Are all the pieces on the bottom half of the puzzle (D side, and bottom half of F, R, L and B sides) solved? because if it is, you will have to unjumble it to solve it.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Derek, the easiest way to check the pieces orbits is to follow a skewb cut around the puzzle. There should be one of each color along that line (alternating sides of it) and if you have two of the same, you can change them out. There is a really easy way of doing it, then check again to see if it's not jumbled up still.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:57 pm 
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Here's what I have. Only happens to the G/O or the B/R sides. Looks like parity, but like I said, I may have accidentally popped edges out and replaced them wrong. I did before, replaced them and didn't get it again even with jumbling, but then a few more pops and now it shows up. Not sure if its coincidence.

Sorry for the slopping editing.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:09 pm 
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With the yellow face on top, and the orange face on the front, perform this algorithm:

UF UR UB UL UF UR UB UL UF UR UF UL UB UR UF UL UB UR FR UF FR UR FR UR FR UR UF FR UR Y FR UR FR UF FR UR FR UF UR FR UF FR UR FR UR FR UR UF FR UR.

Have fun! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:10 pm 
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It's possible, but requires jumbling. Single edge flip is impossible, when not jumbling only two pairs of two can be flipped.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Derek Tolley wrote:
Here's what I have. Only happens to the G/O or the B/R sides. Looks like parity, but like I said, I may have accidentally popped edges out and replaced them wrong. I did before, replaced them and didn't get it again even with jumbling, but then a few more pops and now it shows up. Not sure if its coincidence.

Sorry for the slopping editing.

Image
I'm absolutely sure that this pattern can never be produced by legal moves, no pops and without jumbling.
@Luke:
I have copied your algorithm into Gelatinbrain 3.3.0. Without the Y and with blue as F it becomes:
LU,FU,UR,UB,LU,FU,UR,UB,LU,FU,LU,UB,UR,FU,LU,UB,UR,FU,FL,LU,FL,FU,FL,FU,FL,FU,LU,FL,FU,RF,UR,RF,FU,RF,UR,RF,FU,UR,RF,FU,RF,UR,RF,UR,RF,UR,FU,RF,UR,
This doesn't do the trick!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:37 pm 
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I really wish I had a Curvy Copter to try this on. The first part of the algorithm is flipping the two centers (bmenrigh has now told me that I could have done it in 6 moves :P). The rest of it is solving the Helicopter Cube triangular centers.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Luke wrote:
I really wish I had a Curvy Copter to try this on. The first part of the algorithm is flipping the two centers (bmenrigh has now told me that I could have done it in 6 moves :P). The rest of it is solving the Helicopter Cube triangular centers.
What is the first part?
Please, try Gelatinbrain 3.3.0 (You should have bought one at Meffert's by now :) )
I have solved my Curvy Copter at least a hundred times without jumbling and whenever I have fixed the edge centres, the rest could be done by 3-cycles of the triangular face centres. This makes the last few face centres easier than on the Helicopter without edge centres.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:51 pm 
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I'm sorry Konrad, I really should have one by now :lol:.

The first part is: UF UR UB UL UF UR UB UL UF UR UF UL UB UR UF UL UB UR. It would have been easier if I did [UF UR] x3. :lol:.

I have solved the Curvy Copter on GB many times over, and I always solve the centers straight after I solve the final corners. I never have any problems with this.

EDIT: Okay, I declare this impossible. Once you solve the final corners you can flip the centers and then solve the rest like a normal Copter. Still, you can't deny my algorithm looks impressive and the very least. :wink:

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Last edited by Luke on Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:54 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
I'm absolutely sure that this pattern can never be produced by legal moves, no pops and without jumbling.


Ok, then it was definitely a pop. Have you seen this situation when jumbling?

EDIT - Whoops, looks like Tom confirmed that it can happen when jumbling. Knowing that, I should be able to work it out, I was going nuts trying to figure out a way to do it without jumbling it.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:00 pm 
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I guess I should jump in here echo what everyone else is saying. A few days ago I tried to figure out how to flip two edges pure and quickly convinced myself that without jumbling it is impossible. The best you can do is flip four edges.

The trouble is that if you flip one edge you change the parity of the corners and the parity of two triangle/shield orbits.

You can flip two edges without affecting corners but it changes the parity of either 2 or 4 orbits depending on if the edges have any orbits in common.

You can see this by doing [UF, UR]x3

You can't resolve their orbital parities while maintaining the orientation of the edges without jumbling moves.

To fix your case, first fix the edge orientations with the routine above and then fix the parity of the orbits via jumbling.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:08 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
....To fix your case, first fix the edge orientations with the routine above and then fix the parity of the orbits via jumbling.
Yeah, but Derek has had it without jumbling and then it can have been a pop, only.
And Luke has suggested that he can repair the situation without jumbling and everybody else seems to agree that this cannot be :)
@Luke:
When I fix the edge centre flipping of your "first part" by the usual six moves [UF UR] x3, I see two 3-cyces of triangular face centres.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:11 pm 
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The six move algorithm was meant to flip two centers and leave the corners solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Derek Tolley wrote:
Ok, then it was definitely a pop. Have you seen this situation when jumbling?

EDIT - Whoops, looks like Tom confirmed that it can happen when jumbling. Knowing that, I should be able to work it out, I was going nuts trying to figure out a way to do it without jumbling it.


With jumbling, it's quite easy.
I understand UR or UF but how do you write a jumbling move ?

Edit : by jumbling, I mean this :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTHQ-U3aWo0&feature=related


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Notation for these can be done with two letters and some + and - signs. You can identify an edge with two letters, such as LF or UF. There are 4 jumbling positions, ~+72°, ~-72°, ~+108°, ~-108°. These can either be written out like that, or as I prefer, use a single or double sign. LF would be a 180° turn, LF+ would be a clockwise turn to the first jumbling position, LF-- would be a counter clockwise turn to the second jumbling position.

So, UF- doesn't allow you to do UL, but UL-- does. And UL-- is the same as UL UL+.

Can we please adopt this? I like it and I think it's pretty easy to figure out and keep track of.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:56 am 
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Front is blue, Up is red and Right is yellow.

Turn 2 edges UF and UR
[UR UF]3

Then jumble with UF anf FR
UF+ FR UF FR UF FR UF++

and finaly permute 3 center pieces
UR UF FR UF UR UF FR UF

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:32 am 
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Luke wrote:
The six move algorithm was meant to flip two centers and leave the corners solved.

The problem is, your whole 49 move algorithm does not do a pure flip of the edge centres. Please cut and paste it into Gelatinbrain and you'll see that a lot of other pieces have changed.
There is ageneral agreement here, that a pure flip of the centre edges is impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:15 am 
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I do know now. I tried to do a basic flip in GelatinBrain with no success.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:14 am 
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I do it with only one jumbling move.
So, isn't there a kind of parity ?
If no jumble, the result that you aim isn't on the orbit of the solved cube.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:13 am 
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Thanks to WilliamF, that is certainly quicker than what I was doing to fix it.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:01 am 
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A fairly easy U 4-flip is as follows (no jumbling):

(UR UF)3 UB UR UL UF (UB UL)3 UF UL UR UB (20 turns, optimal not sure)

Per Kristen

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:19 am 
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Now let us see how we can achieve a 6 flip that is not all that long.

The base sequence i will use is this : UR UF FR [UR UF]3 FR UF UR. Add FR to achieve a 3 flip with 2 swapped corners.

Do some conjugate turns to have URF and DBL corners swapped instead (makes second part easier).

We now have : DB RD UR UF FR [UR UF]3 FR UF UR FR RD DB (17 turns)

Add symmetric sequence: RF RD DL LB BD DL LB DL LB DL LB BD LB DL BD RD RF(17 turns)

Alltogether 34 turns. I will double check this with a real helicopter cube. I'm on gelatinbrain now.

An easy 12-flip would also be nice.. The above done twice wont work ...

Per

Edit: Checked and corrected!

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:41 pm 
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I can verify that that position is, in fact, possible.

If OP still needs help, this image teaches you everything you need to know about the Helicopter Cube (and includes two algorithms for jumbling).


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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:39 am 
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Hi Gomba.

I don't understand your last post. Please use standard notation. And by the way, this thread is about the CURVY copter, not the normal helicopter cube :)

Per

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Here is a shorter 6-flip.

I base it on UR UF RF [UR UF]3 RF UF UR RF just like before. But a different conjugate, Now instead i use UB UR to achieve some cancellation.

1: UB UF RF [UR UF]3 RF UF UR RF UR UB (15 turns)

The second part is a symmetric version of first part. Swap F and B, U and R, D and L.

2: RF RB UB [RU RB]3 UB RB RU UB RU RF (15 turns)

Alltogether 30 turns!!

Per

PS!!! Replacing second part with a different symmetric version. Swap U and D, R and B, L and F. Gives a nice pattern.
6-flip and 2 twisted corners ...

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:16 pm 
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perfredlund wrote:
Hi Gomba.

I don't understand your last post. Please use standard notation. And by the way, this thread is about the CURVY copter, not the normal helicopter cube :)

Per

I don't know standard notation (that's not my image). But that was all I needed to solve the Curvy Copter - so it seems related enough.

Although my solving strategy for two flipped edges is to re-jumble the top layer and hope for the best

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:43 am 
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Well to solve a curvy copter takes a bit more than juast solving a normal helicopter cube. Onw must be able to flip the middle edges as well. Hence all my posts about that. WilliamF's 2-flip can be used for all cases of middle edges last solution. But solving like that is tedious.

I believe the following solving scenario is quite efficient:

Position all corners while flipping all middle edges corrrectly.
Orient all corners,
Permute the rest.

Per

PS! I still havent gotten my curvy copter ...

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 Post subject: Re: Help with curvy copter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:58 am 
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perfredlund wrote:
Here is a shorter 6-flip.

I base it on UR UF RF [UR UF]3 RF UF UR RF just like before. But a different conjugate, Now instead i use UB UR to achieve some cancellation.

1: UB UF RF [UR UF]3 RF UF UR RF UR UB (15 turns)

The second part is a symmetric version of first part. Swap F and B, U and R, D and L.

2: RF RB UB [RU RB]3 UB RB RU UB RU RF (15 turns)

Alltogether 30 turns!!

Per

PS!!! Replacing second part with a different symmetric version. Swap U and D, R and B, L and F. Gives a nice pattern.
6-flip and 2 twisted corners ...


Oops, that symmetry didn't work out.

However here's another 4-flip.

1. UR UF FR [UR UF]3 FR UF UR
2. DR DF FR [DR DF]3 FR DF DR

24 turns combined. Can't wait to get my curvy copter :P

Per

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