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 Post subject: Tom's Master Face Turning Octahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
Location: near Utrecht, Netherlands
I would like to present my attempt at designing a Master Face Turning Octahedron. This puzzle was made after a request by Konrad, who will explain more and review this puzzle in his post just below mine.
All credits go to Timur for designing the original Master FTO. This version is made with his permission.

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My Master FTO is built based upon my Dino Skewb mechanism. I have added an extra shell to support the added parts. It turns very well and is entirely stable.

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Click here to buy a Master FTO DIY kit at my shop for just $155/€125 ($170/€140 in black)
as always, assembled and stickered puzzles are available directly from me.

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Last edited by TomZ on Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octhahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:18 pm 
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That has been a fast review, right? :lol: Some may remember my post in the "Rare Puzzle Thread". The MFTO had been number four! :D
I have decided to include my review here and have deleted the separate thread.
Konrad wrote:
Tom has added a new chapter to my Master FTO story.
I have never built any puzzles, but I think Tom and Timur will agree that some credit goes to me that improved versions of Master FTO have be born. :D

History - short version
Tom has designed his version of the Master FTO after a request from me. I had been the winner of the original Master FTO designed and cast by Timur, which was a "collectors item", not really suitable for solving. But because I enjoyed the prototype so much, I wanted a better turning version which was designed by Timur for printing at Shapeways. This new version worked much better than the original prototype, but when I got it a few weeks later as my birthday gift and I tried to scramble and solve it, I recognized a hidden problem. As I had been the only buyer of the Shapeways version, Timur has expressed that he would rather concentrate on new projects instead of trying further improvements. I want to emphasize that Timur has made it on my request and with the goal to do a favour to me.
Because I really wanted a stable Master FTO, I asked TomZ, if he could try some different design.
TomZ's design takes a new approach based on his Dino Skewb design, adding an extra shell to support the deeper cuts. It also turns very smoothly and has no issues with stability.
Not being a designer, I feel somehow as the motor behind the project that brought this puzzle into existence.
I want to thank both designers, Timur and TomZ for responding to my requests.

History in more detail
Timur has posted originally here. As you may remember, the original puzzle was a mixture of casted and printed pieces.
I have won the prototype on Ebay.
I have posted to the rare puzzle thread this.

I have written a PM to Timur asking, if he could make an improved fully 3D printed version.
He responded to my wish and I could buy it at Shapeways. He made a special, unique price for me – as the unique Prototype buyer.
It has turned out that I have been the one and only buyer of the printed version, too.
I made a first review and the puzzle got packed away as my birthday gift.
When I finally got it mid June, I realized a stability issue of the ball core.
As I had been the only buyer of the Shapeways version, Timur has expressed that he would rather concentrate on new projects instead of trying further improvements.
Therefore, I asked Tom via PM to give it a try.
He responded:
TomZ wrote:
The Master FTO is a project I considered but wrote off due to it being too hard.
Before I had read this, he added an EDIT
TomZ wrote:
Ok well, I got it sorted out. I just need to add an extra layer to my existing Dino Skewb design and it will work just fine. I hope I can get it to be a reasonable price/size.

Three hours later I got this
TomZ wrote:
Hi Konrad,

It is looking good already. I just need to make a few adjustments and export it for printing.

And now I have received it on Thursday August 11th and I think this is the final happy end of a long (love :) ) story.

Review

Stability and turning
Out of the box, it is just great. It is completely stable and turns very well. It is among the best Shapeways puzzles I have got. OK, an occasional catching of pieces happens, but that is to be expected for a puzzle with so many pieces. (Timur's Shapeways puzzle doesn't turn badly either, but an implosion of the ball core can happen at any time. That is the "hidden problem". I had three or four such implosions until I had solved it - unfortunately twice very close to the solved state. And with implosion I mean that you are confronted with assembling all 86 visible pieces and some more invisible. Not just a simple pop. This makes the huge difference. No danger at all with Tom's :D :D )
A picture does not show much, but with my lousy notebook camera I cannot make a decent video.
BTW, the colour to the left is not white, but a light beige.
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Here it is among its predecessors:
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To the right is the original (father?), to the left the Shapeways brother from Timur, in the middle is Tom's.
Here it is with the companions it arived with on August 11th:
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BTW, Timur's original and Tom's have trivial tips, while Timur's Shapeways model doesn't.

Size
It has the exact size of Timur's Shapeways version. The overall size is identical to the normal mass-produced FTO. One sticker triangle, before rounding, has an edge length of 12 mm.

Solving
I admit that I have tried to raise interest for Timur's Shapeways version, by discussing the difficulty in my review thread. I'm glad that nobody else has purchased it, because the hidden problem was not recognized yet. Many Gelatinbrain solvers have solved the virtual version and they have judged it as easier than the Starminx. I agree with that and would say that it has the right difficulty for somebody familiar with the ordinary FTO and looking for an additional challenge: Not too easy, not too hard either.
Coming from a FTO going to the MFTO is similar as coming from a 3x3x3 going to a 4x4x4.
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Hidden spoiler below:
[
    1. Reduce the big edges consisting out of two edges and the two triangles in between.
      a. most of them intuitively
      b. the rest with two pure 3-cycles, one [3,1] commutator for the edges and another [3,1] commutator for the triangles (correct the colour scheme of the centres, before finishing step 1b)
    2.Solve the big edges as a Dino
    3. Solve the corners as on the FTO (corners are solved as edges on a Pyraminx)
    4. Solve the remainig triangles quite similar as the triangles of the FTO with a third [3,1] commutator
]

Overall verdict
Let me put it this way: This time, I would be very surprised if my MFTO stays again unique in the universe :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Last edited by Konrad on Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:40 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octhahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Great job, Tom! Love seeing these higher order puzzles!


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octhahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
BTW, Timur's original and Tom's have trivial tips (turning on its own), while Timur's Shapeways model doesn't.
I assume these turning tips is unintentional. Correct? I'm curious, what keeps the tips on Timur's Shapeways model from turning and could that be applied to Tom's model?

Great looking puzzle and as with most (probably all of Tom's models) I'd LOVE to own it someday but for about a year and a half now I've been paying rent and a mortage while I'm trying to sell a home. Not having much luck but someday soon I hope I'll have the spare cash to be able to get this.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octhahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:19 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I'm curious, what keeps the tips on Timur's Shapeways model from turning and could that be applied to Tom's model?

The corners of my MFTO are fused with 6 rectangular parts of a Skewb core, which of course can not turn.
My cast version has the same connection between these parts, but I used screws between the corners and core parts - that allowed the corners to turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Chichester, England
TomZ wrote:
Tom's Master Face Turning Octhahedron (FTO)


Spelt the title wrong. :lol:

Great work Tom. This has been a long time favourite of mine, and I'm glad to see that through a number of iterations through a number of designers, that a great turning puzzle has been built. I just wish that the tips weren't trivial. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
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Oh, dear me.

The tips are also not trivial, they're not designed to turn on their own and don't do so without applying some force. The force required is slightly less than what you'd need to make the corners on a regular FTO turn.

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Buy my mass produced puzzles at Mefferts:
- 4x4x6 Cuboid for just $38
- Curvy Copter for just $18
- 3x4x5 Cuboid for just $34


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:04 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:44 pm
Oh! That's different. I was wondering; it would not be right for them to freely turn. I may just have to order one of these!


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:32 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
The force required is slightly less than what you'd need to make the corners on a regular FTO turn.
Interesting... I have a FTO and I don't remember being able to force the corners to turn but I can't say I remember trying very hard either. I'll have to see if I can find it since the move. But at least this is good... it sounds like its not the sort of thing that would happened accidently during a scramble or solve.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:56 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Interesting... I have a FTO and I don't remember being able to force the corners to turn but I can't say I remember trying very hard either.

Mine certainly turn, with a bit of force. It seems like a hard thing for a mechanism to easily prevent. On my FTI, the corners turn even more easily, though that would be improved with better tolerancing.


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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:59 am 
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Location: Evanston, IL
It's a problem that I have often discussed with Eric. The issue that must be overcome is that vertices like that have convex mechanism, whereas many other parts have concave mechanism. That makes the parts turn in place much more easily, since they are closer to a circle than they are to a square. I'll post pictures of this later.

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Tom's Master Face Turning Octahedron (FTO)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:07 am
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I feel a bit guilty that my little sidenote has withdrawn attention from the essential properties of this puzzle: It is completely stable (which is not completely natural for this puzzle type :) ) and it turns great.
The tips can be turned with some force, yes (I have tried this today on my FTO the first time and yes, they turn as well) but they do not without your intention. (And if you want to cheat yourself, you can disassemble and reassemble most twisty puzzles. :lol:)
I hadn't seen the turning tips as an issue at all, I had just mentioned it because it is different on the three variants I have got :)

EDIT: My wording "trivial tips" has been wrong, defintely and I have removed it from my earlier post.

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