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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:09 am 
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@DKwan

I'm surprised that you just learned commutators a week ago and now you have several records. I'm sure you'll have many more a week later.

@Elwyn and Katja

GB added three more spheres (6.1.4a/b/c) today. I just spent 3 embarrassing hours making no progress. Several hard puzzles got me stuck in the past. And every time it happens, I wonder if this is it. Luckily I can catch up with GB till today. I wish I can make a breakthrough in the weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:41 am 
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3.9.1 continued
Attachment:
Skjermbilde 2011-04-29 kl. 19.55.06.png
Skjermbilde 2011-04-29 kl. 19.55.06.png [ 32.3 KiB | Viewed 5473 times ]
My second attempt at defeating 3.9.1 and I'm stuck again! So I figured out an easy way to solve both the corners and the edges. I thought the centers were gonna be equally easy, but I just keep encountering the state in the photo and don't know how to fix it. I've spent 4 hours on this puzzle now, and don't really feel like shutting the applet down and trying again.

schuma & Brandon; how did you guys cycle the centers? I know Brandon said he did centers last, so I must be missing something fundamental.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:45 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
For 1.2.6 your [4,1] commutators, or at least the one for the "edges" can be made a [3,1] to save a couple moves.
Aha, you're right! I did some more looking and found [3,1]'s for both steps, so I guess I will redo this eventually. Thanks for the tip.

Elwyn wrote:
How do you solve 1.1.5?
I used the same order (edges-->centers-->rays), but my commutators are longer than what you described. I'll try some more. Also, I'm not good at solving much of this intuitively, but I suppose 1-face is fine.

Katja wrote:
Pretty much what happened, was that I took on Michael's time record a while back and beat it by a minute or so. He replied by beating mine by almost 2 minutes
Michael's time records are all so fast! His time was my time target for 1.4.2, and it took me 3 tries to finally beat it... and I feel like as soon as he sees that I took it, he will take it right back with no sweat xD

schuma wrote:
I'm surprised that you just learned commutators a week ago and now you have several records. I'm sure you'll have many more a week later.
Thanks! I double checked and I suppose it's been closer to 2 weeks. I started with 1.2.2 and 1.2.3 on the 18th. Now I feel pressured to keep this up!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:51 am 
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Katja wrote:
3.9.1 continued
Attachment:
Skjermbilde 2011-04-29 kl. 19.55.06.png
My second attempt at defeating 3.9.1 and I'm stuck again! So I figured out an easy way to solve both the corners and the edges. I thought the centers were gonna be equally easy, but I just keep encountering the state in the photo and don't know how to fix it. I've spent 4 hours on this puzzle now, and don't really feel like shutting the applet down and trying again.

schuma & Brandon; how did you guys cycle the centers? I know Brandon said he did centers last, so I must be missing something fundamental.

It is hard to know the exactly state every piece in the puzzle is in based on your screenshot but the minimal state would be where you have two 90 degree twists in the green center that is showing orange as well as two opposite 90 degree twists in the center cube.

I was just able to replicate your exact position in 19 moves however on this puzzle because I sorta "trial and error" it until I get pieces twisted right. After stopping to think about it I was able to do it in 6 moves.

Observe that if you do RFU, [LDB', DBL'], RFU', [DBL, LDB] you will twist the center cube as well as that green face center cube.

There are 4 different "faces" or whatever those blocks you turn are called that will twist the broken piece into the center cube. If you pick the right block to turn the broken piece into the center then you can re-orient the center piece and then move it back into place.

Via trial and error I found this sequence to twist it into the right position: [LBU, RDF, FRD, LBU', RDF', DFR']

I think this puzzle can be solved very efficiently if you stop to think about what your doing but for some reason it just isn't intuitive to me which accounts for the long time and high move-count.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:48 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Observe that if you do RFU, [LDB', DBL'], RFU', [DBL, LDB] you will twist the center cube as well as that green face center cube.

There are 4 different "faces" or whatever those blocks you turn are called that will twist the broken piece into the center cube. If you pick the right block to turn the broken piece into the center then you can re-orient the center piece and then move it back into place.

Via trial and error I found this sequence to twist it into the right position: [LBU, RDF, FRD, LBU', RDF', DFR']

I think this puzzle can be solved very efficiently if you stop to think about what your doing but for some reason it just isn't intuitive to me which accounts for the long time and high move-count.


This [2,1] commutator is pretty good and intuitive. What I did is a little more complicated: two [1,1] commutators leading to the same effect:

[RFU,LDB',RFU',LDB],[BLD,FUR',BLD',FUR],

The first [1,1] is (up face center) -> (cube center) -> (down face center). the second [1,1] is reversing the 3-cycle with another orientation. I think of the effect of the algorithm to the up face center as a rotation of 120 deg around an diagonal axis.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:46 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I was just able to replicate your exact position in 19 moves however on this puzzle because I sorta "trial and error" it until I get pieces twisted right. After stopping to think about it I was able to do it in 6 moves.
:idea: I get it now! I was even able to replicate my scenario (without paying attention to replicating the same colors) in 4 moves:

[URF', DBL, URF, DBL']

I haven't been able to get this puzzle out of my mind since I decided to shut down the applet late last night. I finally think I will be able to solve it. I will give it another go this evening.

Thanks a lot for the help, guys! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:32 am 
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Hi Gelatinbrain,

Today I've solved 6.1.4 and 6.1.4b. 6.1.4 was correctly recognized by the applet. I think you've got the record. However, when I solved 6.1.4b, it was not recognized. Please find attached the screenshot as
a proof. The time is 1:49:18. The move count is 20261, with about 20000 macro moves. I would greatly appreciate it if you can manually add this record.

I will try 6.1.4c tomorrow. I don't know if the applet will automatically recognize that one. If not, I will send you another email or post the screenshot here.

btw, I think 6.1.4 is really really hard. I was really stuck for two or three days. Good job!

-- schuma

Attachment:
614b_solved.PNG
614b_solved.PNG [ 90.54 KiB | Viewed 5397 times ]

----
For another gelatinbrain cubers:

I know this solve with 20000+ moves is definitely not decent. But I can't find short algorithms. My pure 3-cycle algorithm is like 100+ moves. I remember Brandon once said that he wouldn't start solving until he found algorithms of reasonable lengths. I bet Julian and many others think in the same way. I just wanna say that I have the same aesthetic view. And I've really tried hard to shorten the algos for this puzzle. But I'm not so good at it. So please don't think I have a bad taste. For such a complicated puzzle, solving is primary and efficiency is secondary, isn't it?


Comparison between 6.1.3 & 6.1.4:

In 6.1.3, during a turn the circles don't move. In 6.1.4, the circles are connected to the opposite faces. As a result, the circles in 6.1.3 are divided into 4 pies but not 8, as gelatinbrain pointed out:
gelatinbrain wrote:
Maybe this puzzles is not so scary as it looks.
Actually, the circles are divided into 4 pies and not 8, because, unlike other pieces, the circles never turn by 45°. They either turn by 90° or not turn. So the puzzle consists of 48 bitten triangles and 72 pies, 120 pieces in total. Relatively simple... :)


But in 6.1.4, since the circles do turn by 45 deg, each circle is divided into 8 pies. The pies are moving separately. So we have 144 pies. When all the cuts are aligned, and all bitten triangles are solved, it's natural to divide the pies into two (chiral) groups, which are mirror images of each other. First I found algorithms to cycle the pies within a group. But it was not clear whether a pie in one group can go to a place in the other group (and all the bitten triangles remain unchanged). After some trial and error I realized this was possible. So I had to find a special algorithm to move the pies between the groups. The situation is like in the jumbling helicopter cube, one can use a special algo to exchange pieces between "orbits" (defined for the non-jumbling helicopter cube).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:40 am 
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schuma wrote:
So please don't think I have a bad taste. For such a complicated puzzle, solving is primary and efficiency is secondary, isn't it?
I don't think anyone is gonna think that. I am just amazed at your ability to even solve these monsters! And I completely agree with you; solving comes first and efficiency comes second. In my opinion, solving always comes first. I never really care about efficiency for my first solve of a puzzle. However, I do try to come up with the shortest commutators I possibly can find. For some puzzles that's just not always easy. In cases like that I will solve the puzzle and get a horrible move count (remember my > 10000 moves for the circle pentultimate/1.1.35?), and then later on I will revisit the puzzle and see if I can find shorter algorithms and if I do, I solve it again (my second circle pentultimate/1.1.35 solve was only 2000 something moves).

Most people can't even solve a 3x3x3 (I've read that only 1 % of the world's population have the mental capacity to solve it themselves), and keeping that in mind it is really saying a lot just to be able to solve some of the puzzles up on GB, not minding about speed and fewest moves.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 12:57 pm 
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schuma wrote:
For another gelatinbrain cubers:

I know this solve with 20000+ moves is definitely not decent. But I can't find short algorithms. My pure 3-cycle algorithm is like 100+ moves. I remember Brandon once said that he wouldn't start solving until he found algorithms of reasonable lengths. I bet Julian and many others think in the same way. I just wanna say that I have the same aesthetic view. And I've really tried hard to shorten the algos for this puzzle. But I'm not so good at it. So please don't think I have a bad taste. For such a complicated puzzle, solving is primary and efficiency is secondary, isn't it?
Hi schuma, I hope I didn't come across as a snobby puzzler. I have gone through a couple phases in my Gelatinbrain solving tenure.

At first all I wanted was to solve 40 puzzles to get 20th place on the leader board. When I achieved that I wanted to find out how many I could solve and so my only goal was solving as many as possible. Once I got the hang of that and established a sort of comradeship with you and others in this thread I started to want to solve many puzzles more competitively by solving efficiently in move count and time.

At this point I have several conflicting goals:
  • Solve all of Gelatinbrain's beautiful puzzles
  • Be competitive in efficiency and get a few records
  • Not use macros unless necessary
  • Not spend more than 2-3 hours on a single puzzle
  • Not burn out

Obviously I can't achieve all of these goals at the same time. Julian's amazing move-count records that took 4+ hours are an indication of how hard it is to solve efficiently. Gelatinbrain is now adding puzzles faster than I am solving them (thank you by the way!) so my hopes of ever catching up without using macros is looking very unrealistic.

I plan on starting to solve the outstanding big/long/hard puzzles with macros and then a select few smaller puzzles by hand trying to get a move-count record. About 3 weeks ago I solved 1.1.26 with macros and although I could have done much better in moves, I'm happy that I got it done and out of the way.

So to summarize: I have a huge respect for your solving ability and the number of puzzles you have solved. I understand everyone has different solving goals and that often the goals conflict. I'm finding myself aligning my goals more in parallel with yours. Given the choice of solving a puzzle with macros versus not solving it at all because I didn't have the time or energy I will choose solving with macros. Mentally I have already made the macro choice so now I'm just gathering the energy needed to solve a bunch of puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Katja wrote:
Most people can't even solve a 3x3x3 (I've read that only 1 % of the world's population have the mental capacity to solve it themselves), and keeping that in mind it is really saying a lot just to be able to solve some of the puzzles up on GB, not minding about speed and fewest moves.
This is really a matter of philosophy rather than measurable science however I think solving twisty puzzles has very little to do with "mental capacity" and has a lot more to do with persistence and building up domain-specific-knowledge.

The older I get the more I think having a persistent, can-do or can-figure-out attitude and not getting discouraged is just as, if not more valuable than a brilliant mental gift. I think people who believe they could never solve a Rubik's cube have an unhealthy view on taking on new challenges. What shocks me the most about this is all of the people on this forum who can solve the Rubik's cube but then look at Gelatinbrain's puzzles and think that there is no chance they could solve them.

There is definitely room for twisty genius and [Julian, Elwyn, Doug, schuma, ...] have all exhibited glimmers of genius now and then. But I really don't think just solving or not solving a puzzle is a matter of mental capacity. It is about having the right problem-solving attitude.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Hi Gelatinbrain,

I just solved 6.1.4c. Just like 6.1.4b, it was not automatically
recognized. So I have to bother you again. Please find attached the
screenshot.

Time: 2:43:36.
Move count: 21817

Almost all of the moves are macro moves.

Thanks a lot!

schuma


Attachments:
614c_solved.PNG
614c_solved.PNG [ 92.55 KiB | Viewed 5330 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Elwyn, after a few tries, I have managed to use your tips to edge you out for the fewest-moves record on 1.1.5 (I got 350 moves). It was a fun challenge!

Elwyn wrote:
The only fancy thing i do is try and solve as many rays as possible whilst i am doing the centres
This I think is the real key to getting such a low move count. Actually, during the center-solving step, I ignore the centers entirely until I solve enough rays that it becomes difficult/inefficient to keep going. This also includes pairing centers with rays before actually putting them in place. Knowing it takes me about 5 moves per piece to complete the leftover rays at the end, I tried to judge when this stopped being effective (since in theory, with enough planning, you could solve the whole puzzle this way I think). In my 350-move solve, I had 27 rays remaining after the centers.

On another note... the time record is just way too low for me.

EDIT: Similarly, just took the move count on 1.1.4 as well at 465 moves. I'm sure it could be done even lower though as I wasn't too optimal during the "centers" stage.


Last edited by DKwan on Fri May 06, 2011 8:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:56 pm 
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Wow DKwan, that is an awesome move count! I don't think I'll ever be able to do that

I was, however, able to solve another 8 puzzles these past 2 days.

I did:
3.1.28 and 3.1.29, circle cubes where the circles turn at half the speed of the layer. I only needed one additional algorithm for 3.1.29. The algorithms for the circle pieces were way too long as usual.

While writing this I want to write something about how stupidly long my algorithms were, and while thinking about it (for about 3 seconds) I realised how much shorter they could heve been.

on 3.1.28, for the triangles, I used the following non-pure 'kind of'-2-cycle:
B',U'2,B,U,B',U,B,B'4&2,B',U',B,U',B',U2,B'4,U'2,B,U,B',U,B,B'4&2,B',U',B,U',B',U2,B,
While I could also have used:
U',R'4,U, :lol:

and the same goes for my 'kind of' pure 'kind of'-2-cycle. I used:
L',U',L,U',L',U,L,U',L',U,L,U',L',U2,L,U'4&2,L',U'2,L,U,L',U',L,U,L',U',L,U,L',U,L,
eventhough U',R'4,U,R3,U',R'4,U,R,U',R'4,U, would have been even better.

The point is: I suck at movecounts!

Oh and I also solved 3.7.7. Completely intuitive, which is a nice change of pace! A bit more like a twistypuzzle as opposed to the 3.7.6 series. But eventhough it is a puzzle that can be solved on intuition alone, it is not overly easy.

That's it for this month, probably. Not too much puzzletime on my hands these days :(

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 3:08 pm 
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New GB puzzles: 1.6.1 and 1.7.1.

1.6.1 is the deep (half) cut edge + vertex turning dodecahedron. 1.2.9 + 1.4.3

1.7.1 is the deep (half) cut edge + vertex + face turning dodecahedron. (1.1.7 + 1.2.9 + 1.4.3) Looks very complicated......

edit: Well, there are only three types of pieces in 1.6.1 (plus mirrors) and four types of pieces in 1.7.1.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:59 pm 
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Thanks for the new puzzles, GB! 1.5.1 somehow looks so "innocent" now when compared with 1.6.1 and 1.7.1.

With the algo hints below:
F = Face move, V = Vertex move, E = Edge move
[A:B] = A B A' (conjugate)
[A,B] = A B A' B' (commutator)

1.6.1

1. Big pieces: cycle with [[V E] : [E,V], V] = [8,1]
2. Medium pieces: cycle with [E : [E,V], E] = [6,1]
3. Small pieces: cycle pure with [[V E] : [E,V], E] = [8,1]

1.7.1

1. Big pieces: like 1.5.1. Cycle first orbital with [F : [F,E], E] = [6,1], second orbital with [F : [E E]*3, E] = [8,1]
2. Medium pieces (not touching corners): like stage 2 of 1.6.1
3. Medium pieces (touching corners): like stage 3 of 1.6.1
4. Small pieces: like 1.5.1. Cycle first orbital with [[F E] : [F,E], E] = [8,1], second orbital pure with [[E F E] : [F,E], E] = [10,1]

Each central [1,1] commutator in these algos involves turns that are as far apart as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:01 pm 
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6.1.3 and 6.1.4 are really difficult! I'm going to take the approach of the engineers who started to build the railway track over the difficult Semmering pass of the Alps, trusting that a few years later a train would be built capable of climbing the gradient. For now, I can't figure out the unjumbling part of solving the spheres, but I'll still play around with what can be done from unjumbled positions.

As already posted, the pie wedges of the 6.1.3 puzzles are joined in 72 pairs. Here is an algo to cycle 3 pairs of 6.1.3c:

Attachment:
GB 6-1-3c pie cycle.png
GB 6-1-3c pie cycle.png [ 24.7 KiB | Viewed 5185 times ]

[[L'2 D] : [R4 B4]x3, F2] = [10,1]

Pasteable algo: L'2,D,R'4,B'4,R'4,B'4,R'4,B'4,D',L2,F2,L'2,D,B'4,R'4,B'4,R'4,B'4,R'4,D',L2,F'2,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 6.1.4 puzzles have 144 individual wedges. Here is an algo to cycle 3 wedges of 6.1.4c, with the key idea marked in blue:

Attachment:
GB 6-1-4c pie cycle.png
GB 6-1-4c pie cycle.png [ 23.5 KiB | Viewed 5185 times ]

[[U2 : [[R' : U'2] : F'2], B2], L2] = [20,1]

Pasteable algo: U2,R',U'2,R,F'2,R',U2,R,U'2,B2,U2,R',U'2,R,F2,R',U2,R,U'2,B'2,L2,B2,U2,R',U'2,R,F'2,R',U2,R,U'2,B'2,U2,R',U'2,R,F2,R',U2,R,U'2,L'2,

This cycles wedges between left-handed and right-handed orbitals (the yellow piece has stayed in its orbital while the green and red pieces have swapped orbitals). No matter what I tried, every time I managed to isolate a single wedge, it always turned out to have swapped its orbital.

By putting F'2 before and F2 after this, we could cycle single wedges in the same orbital in [44,1]. But I wonder if it would be possible to solve all the wedges using the plain algo? :?

I also experimented with Rubik's algos with an extra 45 degree twist thrown in, such as F3 : [U2, R2]. When commutated with D'2, again with B2, and again with U2, we get a cycle of 3 pairs of wedges (same orbital) in [30,1].


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:00 pm 
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I've recently been powering through as many of the 1.1.x series as I can (I still have a ways to go).

For fun, I decided to make a chart of all 2/3 layer FT-Dodecahedrons on Gelatinbrain showing all of their piece types (based on which face-turns affect a given piece of that type). From my count, there are 15 types in Gelatinbrain, though there are many more theoretical piece types which aren't in any GB puzzle yet. Please let me know if you spot a mistake, or if I missed a puzzle, as I kind of rushed through it. The right-column has the total number of pieces for each puzzle, and the last row has the number of puzzles with each piece type.

This makes me wonder... how easy/difficult would it be to solve the theoretical puzzle containing ALL FT-Dodec piece types? This is of course related to the Multi-Dodecahedron concept, but includes pieces not generated from planar cuts. How long do you think the commutators for the last few piece types would have to be?

I think it would be interesting to have a single solving outline which could be used to solve any of the 28 2/3-layer FT-Dodecahedron puzzle in GB.

P.S. - Of the 28 puzzles listed here, so far I have managed to take 16 of the fewest move count records =)


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FTDodec.JPG
FTDodec.JPG [ 102.79 KiB | Viewed 5129 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:01 pm 
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DKwan wrote:
For fun, I decided to make a chart of all 2/3 layer FT-Dodecahedrons on Gelatinbrain showing all of their piece types (based on which face-turns affect a given piece of that type). From my count, there are 15 types in Gelatinbrain, though there are many more theoretical piece types which aren't in any GB puzzle yet.


Thank you for this analysis.

Classification of puzzles is a recurrent theme on this forum and there are many good related topics.

http://twistypuzzles.com//forum/viewtop ... e6d78c46d2
viewtopic.php?p=190396#p190396
http://twistypuzzles.com//forum/viewtop ... e6d78c46d2

And this is my own program-generated analysis of 2~3 face-turning dodecahedrons.
http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... calist.htm

My list has more piece types than yours because I'm adapting the concept of "logical(virtual) layer" and "logical(virtual) piece":
sets of physically separate layers and pieces, but turning always together, hence, is considered as one logical layer or piece...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:15 pm 
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DKwan,

Gelatinbrain must have seen your post, because he just updated the applet several minutes ago, adding nine new FT dodecahedra, seven of which have 2~3 layers. GB, you classified 1.1.12 in 4~7 layers. But I think it should be in 2~3 layers, right?

DKwan, there's some confusion about Types #1 and #2. It seems that you treat the megaminx centers as not moving at all (type #1). Although I think of them as moved "A" (#2, as in the super megaminx), I can see your point: if the sticker doesn't distinguish orientation, then essentially they are not moving. I think this is a valid point and I believe this is a matter of convention. My convention is that sticker variations do not change the types of pieces. Your convention is the opposite. 

According to your convention, I think the centers in 1.1.7 and 1.1.7b are different. The centers of 1.1.7 are "BCDEF" and those of 1.1.7b are "ABCDEF". 

Please check some other comments:

1. Type #14 should be "ABDEFJ" rather than "ABDEFG". Face J is close to E and F and Face G is on the other side. Similarly, Type #15 should be "BDEFJL" but not "BDEFGL". 

2. The acute triangles and corners in 1.1.50 are "BDEFJL". They are actually the same type of pieces. Three acute triangles and one corner form a group that has no relative motion. Three obtuse triangles also form a group. There are only three types of pieces in 1.1.50.

3. In 1.1.51, there are only two types of pieces. One center and five acute triangles form a group: "BCDEFL". There are only two types of pieces in 1.1.51.

Please check if the statements above are correct. I haven't checked the whole table yet. I'll let you know if I have more comments.

Edit: I was wrong about 1.1.22 and 23. I've removed that incorrect comment. 


Last edited by schuma on Wed May 25, 2011 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:20 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Classification of puzzles is a recurrent theme on this forum and there are many good related topics.

http://twistypuzzles.com//forum/viewtop ... e6d78c46d2
viewtopic.php?p=190396#p190396
http://twistypuzzles.com//forum/viewtop ... e6d78c46d2

And this is my own program-generated analysis of 2~3 face-turning dodecahedrons.
http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... calist.htm

My list has more piece types than yours because I'm adapting the concept of "logical(virtual) layer" and "logical(virtual) piece":
sets of physically separate layers and pieces, but turning always together, hence, is considered as one logical layer or piece...
Your 1.1.X series is my favorite by far so I love this analysis. I see you have puzzles 1.1.52 through 1.1.67 which aren't available in the applet. I'd sure love to see more 1.1.X puzzles :P A few weekends ago I found all of the routines to solve all but 1 or 2 of the remaining 1.1.X puzzles. Someday (soonish) I hope to join schuma in having solved the whole series.

EDIT: it seems as I was asking about the new puzzles you were adding them. Gelatinbrain, you ROCK!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:27 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
And this is my own program-generated analysis of 2~3 face-turning dodecahedrons.

Wow, this seems to be basically the same thing as I was trying to do! Thanks for the other links as well. Those new puzzles you've just added have further extended my goal of finishing 1.1.X ahhh! xD

schuma wrote:
DKwan, there's some confusion about Types #1 and #2. It seems that you treat the megaminx centers as not moving at all (type #1). Although I think of them as moved "A" (#2, as in the super megaminx), I can see your point: if the sticker doesn't distinguish orientation, then essentially they are not moving. I think this is a valid point and I believe this is a matter of convention. My convention is that sticker variations do not change the types of pieces. Your convention is the opposite.

According to your convention, I think the centers in 1.1.7 and 1.1.7b are different. The centers of 1.1.7 are "BCDEF" and those of 1.1.7b are "ABCDEF".

I agree that this is just a convention variance (and you are right about 1.1.7). To be clear, my convention considers the 1.1.1 centers to be a single permutable piece (to distinguish from a void megaminx or 1.1.29). I think to be completely accurate I would have had to separate orientation and permutation like this:
Type #1: Center Permutation (1 piece): 1.1.1, 1.1.1b
Type #2: Center Orientation (12 pieces): 1.1.1b

Also, I appreciate the other corrections, thanks. =)


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 6:03 pm 
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Ehm, gelatinbrain, I think I found a bug.

Almost every of the puzzles you put up in the last update can do slice moves only. This makes the puzzles so tough I can't seem to solve any of them :mrgreen:

The only two that seem to be working fine are 1.1.52 and 1.1.53. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
Ehm, gelatinbrain, I think I found a bug.

What's the bug you found? Slices-onlyness is intended and not a bug. All of these new slices-only puzzles have 4-layer counterparts.
Theoretically, you can make any 4-layer puzzle slices-only, but I don't think solving slice-only 4x4x4 is that interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Haha, I'm sorry, I was only joking.
Of course it was intended, it's just that they would all be so much easier if they weren't slice-only. Of course, those versions already exist.

Well, maybe this will giveme the inspiration to start learning slice-only puzzles...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 3:16 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
What's the bug you found?

gelatinbrain,

I haven't taken a peek at your site in a while and its sure nice to see all the new puzzles. However I haven't been able to get any of the puzzles to work on-line since I upgraded to Vista years ago and I now have Windows 7 and they still don't work. Last time I tried the downloadable executable worked but since the apps don't work I don't find myself going to your website to often any more. Is that a bug or something you could fix? Most of the newer puzzles I have to guess how they move as I can just view the static images.

And do you take suggestions for new puzzles?

Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 4:04 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
gelatinbrain wrote:
What's the bug you found?

gelatinbrain,

I haven't taken a peek at your site in a while and its sure nice to see all the new puzzles. However I haven't been able to get any of the puzzles to work on-line since I upgraded to Vista years ago and I now have Windows 7 and they still don't work. Last time I tried the downloadable executable worked but since the apps don't work I don't find myself going to your website to often any more. Is that a bug or something you could fix? Most of the newer puzzles I have to guess how they move as I can just view the static images.

And do you take suggestions for new puzzles?

Thanks,
Carl


Your machine is 64bits or 32 bits? If it's 64bits you will have to get a special browser for it. Another possible cause is the JAVA console setting.
See Brandon's post here for details. But these problems are only for applet.
If the ".exe" and the executable jar don't work either, the cause would be elsewhere.
I can't guess the problem without additional infos. Could you please describe your problem in detail and post it to the thread mentionned above?

Any suggestion by PM or e-mail is appreciated. But note that I can't reply to each.
And also I'm fixing my border to symmetric puzzles with convex shape.
I adore your mixup series. But I'm afraid their shapes are too complex to simulate decently... :|

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:52 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
...Your machine is 64bits or 32 bits? If it's 64bits you will have to get a special browser for it. Another possible cause is the JAVA console setting.
See Brandon's post here for details. But these problems are only for applet.
If the ".exe" and the executable jar don't work either, the cause would be elsewhere.
I can't guess the problem without additional infos. Could you please describe your problem in detail and post it to the thread mentionned above?
...

First of all: Thank you very much for your great collection of virtual puzzles. :D :D Personally, I'm not very good at visualizing the pieces on the two views. But your applet has helped me very often developing a solution when a specific physical puzzle had not yet arrived.

I had technical problems running the applet on Windows 7 64 bit a while ago. Following Brandon's findings a had lowered the security and it worked again. With later Java versions the problem has gone away, completely (currently I run 1.6.0_24 and Internet Explorer V9). The applet runs with both the IE 64bit and IE 32 bit.

Unfortunately, the standalone .exe program does not run at all (It runs on an older Windows XP notebook of my wife, though.)
I cannot give any hints what the problem might be, because it doesn't start at all.
When I start the program, nothing happens, no error message, NOTHING!
Has anybody else a Windows 7 x64 system?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:48 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:
Ehm, gelatinbrain, I think I found a bug.

What's the bug you found? Slices-onlyness is intended and not a bug. All of these new slices-only puzzles have 4-layer counterparts.
Theoretically, you can make any 4-layer puzzle slices-only, but I don't think solving slice-only 4x4x4 is that interesting.


Hi Gelatinbrain,

Is there any slice-only puzzle coming soon? The ranking page says there are 443 puzzles, but I can only find 438. The rest 5 puzzles are not released yet, aren't they?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:04 pm 
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schuma wrote:
gelatinbrain wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:
Ehm, gelatinbrain, I think I found a bug.

What's the bug you found? Slices-onlyness is intended and not a bug. All of these new slices-only puzzles have 4-layer counterparts.
Theoretically, you can make any 4-layer puzzle slices-only, but I don't think solving slice-only 4x4x4 is that interesting.


Hi Gelatinbrain,

Is there any slice-only puzzle coming soon? The ranking page says there are 443 puzzles, but I can only find 438. The rest 5 puzzles are not released yet, aren't they?


Oops! I thought I already added them. Since your scores don't arrive, I was worrying if you are not dead of overpuzzle. :lol:

Looks that the ".exe" version doesn't work on 64bits Windows. :(
Since I don't have a 64bits machine, I'm not sure, but there must be a way to execute 32bits apps on 64bits Windows. Otherwise who on earth want to buy a new computer?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:23 am 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Looks that the ".exe" version doesn't work on 64bits Windows. :(
Since I don't have a 64bits machine, I'm not sure, but there must be a way to execute 32bits apps on 64bits Windows. Otherwise who on earth want to buy a new computer?
Most 32 bit applications run. This must be a specific problem with JOGL.
BTW, is it by intention that the algorithm string input is not there in the .exe program?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:24 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Most 32 bit applications run. This must be a specific problem with JOGL.
BTW, is it by intention that the algorithm string input is not there in the .exe program?

No, it's off course not intentional. :wink: Simply I don't have enough time. And I like much more programming new puzzles than the user interface.
Instead of the algorthm bar, the exe version has the file save function which the JAVA version doesn't have. In the future I will implement both functions to both JAVA and exe versions.

As for your 64bits problem, the only possibility I can think of is the video card driver. But I suppose you already have the update. It's really bizzare... :?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:31 pm 
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I decided to get into the slice dodecahedra. So far I've solved 1.1.64 (slice pentultimate+kilominx) and 1.1.60 (slice pentultimate+starminx). I thought these would be the easiest so I solved those two first.

1.1.60 may looks like it has a lot of pieces, but every piece that looks like a face is actually attached to another piece. There are centers, pretty-much-trivial trapezohedra (1) and pretty-much-trivial triangles(2). These can be solved in under 30 seconds.
The other pieces are attached to each other like shown in the picture.
Attachment:
1.1.60.jpg
1.1.60.jpg [ 107.48 KiB | Viewed 4754 times ]

The edges really help you while solving. They can be 3-cycled easily, and when one edge is solved, another one on the other side of the puzzle is also solved.

The rhombus pieces are a little tougher though. It is impossible to tell in an instant which two rhombusses are connected and where they should go. Figuring this out and keeping track can consume quite some time.

1.1.64 has only two kinds of pieces that can easily be 3-cycled. In my case only the orientation of the corners was a problem since I only used permutation moves. '

And I also solved a vertex-turning slice dodecahedron, 1.2.18 (slice starminxIII+dinododecahedron). The setup moves were quite difficult on this one. There were a lot of instances where I really wished for the stationary tips to turn!

After this one I'll probably attempt the cricle starminx III (1.2.15) and the super starminx III's (1.2.6b-e).

Sigh, life gets harder when you've already solved all of the easy ones...

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:16 pm 
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I need to get back into solving! :shock: So many new interesting puzzles to try.

As far as slice-only puzzles go, 1.1.44 doesn't seem all that bad. I found all the algo's for it a while ago but never got around to solving it. My planned order of solving was:

1. Corners
2. Wide triangles
3. Centers
4. Thin triangles

Apart from the 4th step finding algo's went pretty smooth too. I think Julian gave a much more detailed walkthrough of this puzzle some time ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:44 pm 
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You may have already noticed. My site is now on wartime mode. Service is reduced to strict minimum.
    ° Only one applet entry(but you can chose any puzzle from the menu)
    ° No scoreboard
    ° You can download the exe version
    ° You can install the executable jar
I'm sorry but I need a disk space for another project. This is a temporary measure. I will soon find a solution, I hope...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:57 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
You may have already noticed. My site is now on wartime mode. Service is reduced to strict minimum.
    ° Only one applet entry(but you can chose any puzzle from the menu)
    ° No scoreboard
    ° You can download the exe version
    ° You can install the executable jar
I'm sorry but I need a disk space for another project. This is a temporary measure. I will soon find a solution, I hope...


I'm keeping track of this file:

http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... yhedra.jar

This address will still be the key file to follow, right?

I'm also curious what's your other project. It must be cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:34 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
You may have already noticed. My site is now on wartime mode. Service is reduced to strict minimum.
    ° Only one applet entry(but you can chose any puzzle from the menu)
    ° No scoreboard
    ° You can download the exe version
    ° You can install the executable jar
I'm sorry but I need a disk space for another project. This is a temporary measure. I will soon find a solution, I hope...
Hi Gelatinbrain, I'd happily host for you on Amazon EC2. I'm hosting brandonenright.net out of Amazon EC2 for a very, very low cost and I'm quite pleased. If you'd like I can buy you a domain such as "virtualmagicpolyhedra.net" and host it. I'd even be willing to host on a separate dedicated instance that you have 100% control over. I'd be happy to maintain the machine, web server, email, etc at no cost to you.

I'm in the process of transitioning to a new job and moving to or around San Jose (California Bay Area) which has me quite busy. I can definitely make the time to help you transition hosting though.

If you are open to this we should discuss details via PM.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:36 pm 
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schuma wrote:
http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... yhedra.jar

This address will still be the key file to follow, right?

Yes !
schuma wrote:
I'm also curious what's your other project. It must be cool.

It's a top secret. :lol: Anyway it's nothing to do with puzzles, and it will take still one year or so.
Maybe I will announce at off-topic.

bmenrigh wrote:
If you are open to this we should discuss details via PM.

Thank you for your offer. But I already have several candidates for my new project in Belgium.
The problem to move the Magic Polyhedra is that the score generator is using the script provided by my ISP. So you have to rewrite this part to make it work on other hosts.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:42 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Thank you for your offer. But I already have several candidates for my new project in Belgium.
The problem to move the Magic Polyhedra is that the score generator is using the script provided by my ISP. So you have to rewrite this part to make it work on other hosts.
Yeah I could replicate that script quite easily (HTTP post to email if I recall correctly) however it might also require you to update the applet to point to a new domain.

It's up to you, I'm happy to host at some later point even if you don't need to move your puzzles elswhere :D .

I'm curious about your other project too...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:33 am 
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If there isn't a scoreboard anymore, can we still keep the certificates for a later time? Or will they just be recorded as usual, except for the fact we won't see them?

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:06 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
If there isn't a scoreboard anymore, can we still keep the certificates for a later time? Or will they just be recorded as usual, except for the fact we won't see them?

Yes, your scores are recorded as usual. No worries. Just the board doesn't show up.
As I wrote yesterday, it'a temporary problem, it will be fixed within a week or so.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:28 pm 
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Now the ranking page is back. I wonder if GB has resolved the website issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:31 pm 
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It seems my 1.2.9 solve didn't get through. Here's the certificate (thanks!):

9b9a0b3fad76ecec611dc59c436e91dc
232a85ee0bd926b34c8d86f30db94673
8ce216d62c6a98dd31ec1af9347719cc
32a7584fb09d623bc497682fd08c64c3


I had the algorithms for this one stashed for a while, and after 1.2.7, the chopasaurus isn't that big of a deal.
And to anyone who hasn't solved 4.6.1 yet: very solvable, quite fun.

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
after 1.2.7, the chopasaurus [1.2.9] isn't that big of a deal.
I know I haven't solved either yet, but I would think it is the other way around. I didn't really have trouble finding algorithms for 1.2.7 but I never got around to a solve yet because it's gonna take forever. 1.2.9 on the other hand; still no pure algo for the thin triangle pieces. And 1.2.9 is also deep-cut, which makes that and set-ups so much harder. But maybe it's similar to the big chop? And by that I mean really hard to find a pure algo but when you have it, solving is not that difficult.

As soon as I finish up with this semester I'm gonna give 1.2.9 another go. And maybe finally get around to solving all of the puzzles I have algorithms for (including 1.2.7).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:10 am 
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I managed to get 2 pure algorithms for the 1.2.9 triangles. The one I used (the shortest one) was a ((((1,1)x3),1),1) = ((12,1),1) = (26,1) = a 54 move algorithm....

But hey it works!

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:20 am 
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There are two new puzzles: 1.2.20 and 1.2.21. They are slice-only vertex turning dodecahedra, just like 1.2.19, but more complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:40 pm 
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Long time since i posted anything here, I suppose i just haven't been finding solving as interesting lately.

But a couple of weeks ago I did reclaim my 1.1.1b record and improve some of my move counts but it seems Daniel has gotten it back.
It seems he is rather intent on having all the 1.1.x records and I think he might get there quite easily :shock: I might have to put in a couple of solves to try and slow him down some time in the next month or so :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:08 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
I might have to put in a couple of solves to try and slow him down some time in the next month or so :)

I look forward to the challenges =)

I am very far from getting all of 1.1.x, let alone the 2/3 layer ones. There are just so many!

About 1.1.1b, when I saw that your new record was identical to my count on 1.1.22 (which is the same puzzle), I had to retake it.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:16 pm 
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GB, thanks for adding more 1.2.* puzzles.

There's something interesting in 1.2.20 and 1.2.21. The puzzles have an implicit orientation like 1.4.8. In 1.4.8, the implicit orientation is determined by the triangles, which belong to six orbits. One needs to deduce the orientation from the triangles in the very beginning.

But in 1.2.20/21, it's determined by the central edge pieces, which belong to five orbits. The configuration of the five orbits is just like how one can combine five cubes in a dodecahedron <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_of_five_cubes>. I've never seen such orbits before in GB puzzles. Such pieces are no longer there in 1.2.22 or above.

Since 1.2.20 and 1.2.21 contain too many types of pieces, I think only a few people would play and appreciate them. I'm thinking of simplify the puzzle using non-planar cuts to highlight the interesting central edge pieces. If it looks simpler, more people will attempt.

Here's my first suggestion:
Attachment:
1.PNG
1.PNG [ 12.67 KiB | Viewed 4314 times ]

It contains only the edges, but the cuts are weird. The turning region is labeled by black lines. Strictly speaking the region is not connected.

Second suggestion. Sorry for bad doodling.
Attachment:
2.jpg
2.jpg [ 40.37 KiB | Viewed 4314 times ]

It contains centers. The turning region is connected.

Third suggestion.
Attachment:
3.PNG
3.PNG [ 16.35 KiB | Viewed 4314 times ]

But I think there are already too many pieces in this one.

Among all of them I like the second one because the centers are actually a trap. If you think solving centers are easy and do it first, you may never be able to solve the edges. I don't know if it's easy to implement or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:45 pm 
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GB, I'm surprised that you implemented all three in such a short time! Awesome!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:06 pm 
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schuma wrote:
GB, I'm surprised that you implemented all three in such a short time! Awesome!

Just ask me. 8-)
On my program, I'm ignoring the collision. Physical versions would need some kind of pull-up mechanism. I've seen such a puzzle somewhere on this forum. But I don't remember exactly where...

I have a question about another totaly different puzzle.
The 3.7.6 is certainly the easiest of all my puzzles. If your goal is just solving, this is absolutely of no interest. But how about the optimum solve? Is it worth try again and again?
I ask this question because I'm thinking to make some simple puzzles for cell-phone.
Something enjoyable both for beginners and experienced players
and light enough to be played in the commutor train or waiting rooms.
I think even for the easiest of exiting twisty puzzles, the first hurdle is too high for beginners, and that obstruct twisty puzzles to be really popular...

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