Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:13 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 158 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Compy/Dino Cuboid
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:00 am
So I was sitting in a conference when this thought crossed my mind. I drew up a quick sketch, then transferred the thought to google sketch up.

Image

It looked more like the one at the left when it originally came into my mind. After "twisting" it looks like there was no simple way to anchor the edge peaces down. After realizing this I moved the cuts deeper and ran into the same thing. Then deeper again all the way to a dino style cut, this seems like it would be the most sturdy.

However I'm no engineer and sketch up is not the best program to learn these techniques in. I would really like to learn to make mechanisms but my schedule and wallet currently restricts me. So if some one else would like to take a swing at this please feel free. I would really like to know if it would be possible to build this, and am interested in owning one if I could be done.


Last edited by boublez on Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:11 am
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Good idea.

_________________
http://cclx.webs.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I like the one on the right the most! :) Ncie thinking!

_________________
Tony Fisher wrote:
I believe it would work best with black plastic.

My puzzles in the Museum
My Website
My Youtube Channel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Cool idea. Similar to wwwmwww's Uniaxial 3x3x3 and Timur's F-Skewb except you unbalanced the cuts in very cool different way.

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
I agree... very cool idea. I'd almost be tempted to call the puzzle on the right a Siamese Dino Cube and the other two would be Siamese Compy Dino Cubes. Note the top 4 axes of rotation meet at a point which is different then the point the bottom 4 axes of rotation meet at. Each of these points can be thought of as the center of a Dino Cube (or Dino Compy Cube) which is partially bandaged by being Siamesed with the other. What's really interesting is when the cuts of one of the base puzzles are continued to the other, new pieces are made and it looks like the two puzzles are able to share pieces.
Attachment:
SiamDino2.png
SiamDino2.png [ 50.31 KiB | Viewed 12995 times ]

Looking at this pic. The green piece is the core of the puzzle. The red pieces I believe are stuck in the bottom Dino Cube as the blue pieces are stuck/confined in the top puzzle. The orange pieces and the purple pieces I believe are exchanged between both but I don't see a way for them to change places with each other.

Very very neat idea,
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:00 am
wwwmwww wrote:
Looking at this pic. The green piece is the core of the puzzle. The red pieces I believe are stuck in the bottom Dino Cube as the blue pieces are stuck/confined in the top puzzle. The orange pieces and the purple pieces I believe are exchanged between both but I don't see a way for them to change places with each other.
Carl


I'm pretty sure that is how everything would work. I think the orbiting orange and purple pieces would make solving slightly more challenging in a solve then I original anticipated. Now I really want one. :lol:

Image

I'm still uncertain if this could be made at all. The piece that is concerning has been made clear/red. Is there any way to anchor it in with out only using of magnets?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
boublez wrote:
I'm still uncertain if this could be made at all. The piece that is concerning has been made clear/red. Is there any way to anchor it in with out only using of magnets?

The only thought coming to mind at the moment is the puzzle would likely have to be pillowed. And in this case if it were pillowed in the traditional sense it would also produce a shape changing puzzle because not all the orange and purple pieces would be the same shape. Even with pillowing I'm still not sure as I can't see all the details of the mech in my head at the moment.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:00 am
I drew up what curved cuts would look like. I think they would be more stable. I personally think it looks more interesting too. Also from what I've seen around the site curvy cuts tend to move a little smoother.

Image

By the looks of things there is more room to get these pieces anchored in. I don't know how much room is really needed make things really sturdy.

This puzzle still doesn't have a mechanism!!! Any one is interested in making this a model with an actual mechanism is more then welcomed to do so. I would love to see this become an physical puzzle.

Thank you everyone for input and keep it coming.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
boublez wrote:
I drew up what curved cuts would look like. I think they would be more stable. I personally think it looks more interesting too. Also from what I've seen around the site curvy cuts tend to move a little smoother.
Nice!!! And 100 times better then pillowing.

Also seeing this I realize you could also potentially make this look like a Siamese Mosaic Cube, with 4 faces looking like this:
Attachment:
Mosaic.png
Mosaic.png [ 2.3 KiB | Viewed 12719 times ]


I wouldn't add in the extra turns available on the Mosaic Cube. I believe they would make the puzzle easier. Still thinking about the mech...

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:12 am
Location: Hong Kong/Beijing
Seems like a 445 kind of Mosaic Cube?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:48 am
Location: In Front Of My Teraminx (saying WTF?)
IM SO SORRY EVERYONE but I tried designing one right now, but as the *middle high/low* dino edges are closer to the ball core than the outside dino edges, so..... either Oskar's god could design the puzzle either it's a lost cause :cry: I really wanted it to be true :(

- Greg

_________________
My Shapeways Shop!
My Designs
My Official Results
My Website on Twisty Puzzles with Gears

Grégoire Pfennig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:39 pm
Location: Marquette, MI, USA
The problem is it cant really have a ball core. It would be elongated for all of the pieces to be identical, and then it would not turn.

I think this puzzle is very plausible, but I think it would need just a little bit of fudging to work. not sure. Never been very good with vertex turning puzzles, I will leave this to some one who knows what they are doing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Muffet wrote:
I think this puzzle is very plausible, but I think it would need just a little bit of fudging to work. not sure.
I'm not sure fudging is needed. I think you just need to look at the puzzle as a Siamese. It should have 2 Siamese ball cores. This way the middle edge is the same distance to both cores as the high/low edges are to their nearest core. I haven't worked it out all myself so I can't be sure but I think this is doable without fudging.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:48 am
Location: In Front Of My Teraminx (saying WTF?)
Muffet wrote:
The problem is it cant really have a ball core. It would be elongated for all of the pieces to be identical, and then it would not turn.

I think this puzzle is very plausible, but I think it would need just a little bit of fudging to work. not sure. Never been very good with vertex turning puzzles, I will leave this to some one who knows what they are doing.


I wrote:
Oskar's god


He can do it !!

_________________
My Shapeways Shop!
My Designs
My Official Results
My Website on Twisty Puzzles with Gears

Grégoire Pfennig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:57 pm
Location: Pittsburgh
wwwmwww wrote:
Muffet wrote:
I think this puzzle is very plausible, but I think it would need just a little bit of fudging to work. not sure.
I'm not sure fudging is needed. I think you just need to look at the puzzle as a Siamese. It should have 2 Siamese ball cores. This way the middle edge is the same distance to both cores as the high/low edges are to their nearest core. I haven't worked it out all myself so I can't be sure but I think this is doable without fudging.

Carl

Something like this. Guys, recognize that some of the pieces will never leave one core, so you need two cores, basically.

When I reinstall SW, I'll take a look at this (or maybe the mosaic cube like version)

_________________
3x3x3 PB: 00:48.10
"Study gravitation, it's a field with a lot of potential."
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
RubixFreakGreg wrote:
Oskar's god

Oskar's as in the possessive form of Oskar or Oskar is? Either way is probably a safe bet.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:39 pm
Location: Marquette, MI, USA
i am not sure about the "fused core" and how it would work either. Here is my rough attempt at a sketch, I am not at home so I can't make a 3d model, and as I said I am terrible with vertex turning.


Basically because of the cuboid geometry as Greg stated one of the "edges" reaches farther into the core than the other one with a spherical core.

An elongated core, or a fused core would also not work because it would block the rotation.

I am very confident that this puzzle will work, but I am also still convinced that it would have to be fudged.

Perhaps Greg could post some screen shots of the design to help his, and my explaination?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:48 am
Location: In Front Of My Teraminx (saying WTF?)
It does need to be REALLY fudged to work. It's like needing fudging for a Dino Pent Prism (which I tried as well ^^)

- Greg

_________________
My Shapeways Shop!
My Designs
My Official Results
My Website on Twisty Puzzles with Gears

Grégoire Pfennig


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:00 am
First of all thank you everyone for you input and interest.

I like the way the mosaic version looks. However I have seen a lot of reviews on the original mosaic puzzles that make the turning look bad. I think it might be do to the odd cuts, or maybe is just a small tension flaw.

I am not completely sure I know what the true definition is of fudging. From what I do understand it has something to do with allowing one piece to be able to move on two different depths or angles of a cut. Please correct me if I'm wrong. From my hours of staring at and thinking able these files it doesn't seem like it would have to be fudge. But it is very possible that I am wrong.

The core I have been imaging wouldn't be ball shape but would look more like a snow man, or to fused balls. But again I have no experience with designing puzzles so there might be a better way of going about this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:46 pm
Location: Evanston, IL
boublez wrote:
From what I do understand it has something to do with allowing one piece to be able to move on two different depths or angles of a cut.

I don't think many people on the forum have a very good picture yet of what fudging is, as it is such a new concept. But what you said is a pretty good definition in my mind.

I think that this puzzle is a perfect example of one that needs fudging, as the axes don't all go through one point. I just realized that all the edge pieces will have to be identical! Imagine turning one corner, and then an adjacent corner on the same square face. Follow the edge piece that started in the middle of the vertical edge, and you will see it end up (upside-down) in the space above the middle edge piece on the other vertical edge.

Somehow, you would have to make it so that those edge pieces can exist in both locations, and I think this calls for some fudging.

If we can get Oskar in on this conversation, he might be able to clear things up.

-Eitan

_________________
Eitan = "EIGHT-ahn"
Buy a Radio Cube 3! Only $150 at Eitan's Shapeways Shop
Check out my video: Twisty Puzzles a la Vi



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
Location: near Utrecht, Netherlands
Fudging doesn't really have a precise definition, I believe. It's just cutting away at the pieces in such a way that they're just able to rotate in to places they shouldn't.

_________________
Tom's Shapeways Puzzle Shop - your order from my shop includes free stickers!
Tom's Puzzle Website


Buy my mass produced puzzles at Mefferts:
- 4x4x6 Cuboid for just $38
- Curvy Copter for just $18
- 3x4x5 Cuboid for just $34


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:39 pm
Location: Marquette, MI, USA
TomZ wrote:
Fudging doesn't really have a precise definition, I believe. It's just cutting away or possibly adding on at the pieces in such a way that they're just able to rotate in to places they shouldn't.


This is how I take fudging.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:48 am
I'm not exactly sure how adding material allows for increased movement. Could you please clarify?

_________________
--Noah

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Ok... I have the mech worked out. And NO fudging is needed. Here is what the core looks like:

Image

Image

Image

Making some more renders now. boublez any objection to me putting this in my shapeways shop if I can get this in the needed format? I'd be happy to get you a puzzle at cost but you may have to wait a bit. I have very little free time these days. Curently thinking of calling it the Boublez Cuboid but if you'd prefer something else let me know.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
More pics of the pieces...

The corners:
Image

The dino pieces:
Image

The edge pieces:
Image

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Last edited by wwwmwww on Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:45 pm
I must have one!
That is awesome Carl.

_________________
Image
Sig made by me.

Dragonball is amazing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Here are a few pics I had rendering over night.

Image

Image

Image

Enjoy,
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:00 am
Thank you Carl!! This is awesome, it's fun watching a sloppy sketch grow into something awesome. Could this be uploaded to shapeways? Does it need to be a curtain size? If not, how small could it be made? If it is small/affordable enough I would be willing to print the first prototype.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:37 pm
this is sweet! I really hope it gets turned into a real puzzle.

_________________
PBs:single/Ao5/Ao12
3x3: 4.76/8.13/8.80
pyraminx: 0.89/1.87/2.19
4x4:36.50/45.59
5x5: 1:21.50/1:41.50
7x7: 4:10.50


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
boublez wrote:
Thank you Carl!! This is awesome, it's fun watching a sloppy sketch grow into something awesome. Could this be uploaded to shapeways? Does it need to be a curtain size? If not, how small could it be made? If it is small/affordable enough I would be willing to print the first prototype.

This model was made in POV-Ray and POV-Ray can't export in a format that Shapeways can use. Plus I can't do fillets or hollowing easily in POV-Ray so this will need to be turned into a mesh using something like SolidWorks which I don't know how to do by myself... yet. After I get version 2 of my Circle Mixup cube on Shapeways though I think I may be able to get some help turning this into a mesh. Give me a week or two atleast unless you know someone else that would like to help turn this into a mesh? Also this POV-Ray model was more a proof of concept. On the final model I'd like to put bigger feet on the pieces as these look a bit small to me. That should be easy enough to adjust now that I have the geometry down.

I'm glad you like it. It was fun to design.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:36 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Dang!!! I've been working on this, but by hand recently....oh well. On to the next one.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Actually these pieces are even more general then I first thought. Throw in a new core and you can re-use these same corners, dino pieces, and edges to make another new puzzle.

Image

Image

Image

If you think of boublez's original idea as a Dino Twin then this is the Dino Quad.

Enjoy,
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
wwwmwww wrote:
Actually these pieces are even more general then I first thought. Throw in a new core and you can re-use these same corners, dino pieces, and edges to make another new puzzle.
Wow. What a strange interesting property.

If we count the pieces in the overlap, the first "cuboid" is 1x2x2. Your new one is 1x1x2. This inspired me to sketch up the 1x2x3. Of course it would need that same non-planar cuts.
Attachment:
Cuboid 1x2x3.png
Cuboid 1x2x3.png [ 9.61 KiB | Viewed 12055 times ]


Does this exhaust all possible Dino "cuboids"? I want to say that the 1x2x5 would just be the same as 1x2x3, but haven't checked.

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
GuiltyBystander wrote:
If we count the pieces in the overlap, the first "cuboid" is 1x2x2. Your new one is 1x1x2. This inspired me to sketch up the 1x2x3. Of course it would need that same non-planar cuts.
Interesting... that is more then just a new core. The geometry is different as you are now moving 3 edges out with each corner so everything will need to be redesigned. And I need to check some math as I'm not sure these new edges will work. They may be completely exposed mid turn leaving no room for their feet.
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Does this exhaust all possible Dino "cuboids"? I want to say that the 1x2x5 would just be the same as 1x2x3, but haven't checked.
Great question. I can't picture it clearly enough in my head to know for sure but I *think* its the same as your 1x2x3. But as I'm still not sure you have room for a mech that holds onto 3 edges out per corner, I can almost guarentee that getting 5 edges out per corner would be next to impossible.

I'll take a shot as designing the 1x2x3 but it may have to wait till after April 15th. What free time I have between now and then (not much) should be spent working on my taxes.

Someone know what software boublez used to make this image above:
Image
If someone can make a similiar image for this 1x2x3 it may answer the question about there being room for the feet of the edges faster then I can.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:00 am
I got this as close as I can. I'm not sure how well it will anchor.
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Thanks... Looks like there should be plenty of room for the feet. I couldn't help myself so here is what I got finished last night.

Image

3 more pieces to go.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Ok... finished working out the other pieces.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Enjoy,
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:03 pm
Carl,

1) That is a wonderful design that begs to be brought into the physical world.
2) I notice that the blue (and also the orange) part always stay at the same half of the puzzle. Can you make a design where all parts can be interchanged with all other parts of the same shape?

Oskar

_________________
Oskar's home page, YouTube, Shapeways Shop, Puzzlemaster, and fan club
Image.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
wwwmwww wrote:
Image
Strange seeing a core that's so unsymmetrical.
wwwmwww wrote:
Actually these pieces are even more general then I first thought. Throw in a new core and you can re-use these same corners, dino pieces, and edges to make another new puzzle.
You should be able to do the same thing with these new pieces right?

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
I've been wondering about the best way of naming these. I like GuiltyBystander way of counting the number of overlapping edges in each direction. The greatest common factor of the 3 numbers is then the number of turnable layers per corner

So that makes these all Dino1x1x1's: (greatest common factor = 1 so its one turnable layer per corner)

Your basic Dino Cube, the Compy Cube, and the Redi Cube:

Image

Of these the Dino Cube has been mass produced.

These are Dino2x2x2's: (greatest common factor = 2 so its two turnable layer per corner)

The Master Dino Cube and the Fadi Cube:

Image

Of these the Fadi Cube has been mass produced as the Mosaic Cube.

Along these lines this is the Dino1x1x2: (greatest common factor = 1 so its one turnable layer per corner)

Image

This is the Dino1x2x2: (greatest common factor = 1 so its one turnable layer per corner)

Image

And this is the Dino1x2x3: (greatest common factor = 1 so its one turnable layer per corner)

Image

As DinoIxJxK feels more like a classification then a name I'm still open to better names. Looing at the Dino1x1x1 for example it really could be at least 3 puzzles.

(1) Your basic Dino Cube with just edges.
(2) A Compy Cube with edges, face centers (the core), and corners.
(3) The Redi Cube with just edges and corners.
(4) You could also make a Redi Cube with spherical cuts all the way to the surface. [same puzzle as (3)]
(5) If these spherical cuts didn't meet at a face center you could also have a Compy Cube (exposed core) with spherical cuts. [same puzzle as (2)]

Carl

P.S. Does this exploit all these first order Dino Cuboids... greatest common factor = 1? I'm still thinking about GuiltyBystander's Dino1x2x5.

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
GuiltyBystander wrote:
You should be able to do the same thing with these new pieces right?
Yes... with these pieces you could build any Dino Cuboid which moved 3 edges in per corner. The thing is I'm not sure there are any other new puzzles to make here.

The 3x3x3 without adding more turnable layers per corner becomes the 1x1x1.
The 2x2x3 I think is the same puzzle as the 1x1x2. I haven't proven that.
The 1x1x3 I think is the same puzzle as the 1x1x2 as well.
The 2x3x3 and the 1x3x3 I think are the same puzzle as the 1x2x2.

If you want to include the possibility of no overlap between 2 corners:

I think the 0x2x3 and the 0x1x3 are the same as the 0x1x2
And the 0x0x3 is the same as the 0x0x1.

Note: 0x0x1 is 4 simple and seperate 5 piece puzzles rotating about 2 corners.
The 0x1x2 and the 0x1x1 are each two seperate puzzles in one. One half of the cuboid never interacting with the other.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Oskar wrote:
1) That is a wonderful design that begs to be brought into the physical world.

Thanks!!! I want to do just that. I've got a lead on a copy of SolidWorks that I might be able to buy. My employer bought a copy back in 2004 for a project. It solved the problem it was bought for and paid for itself and hasn't been used since. However no one is sure where the dongle is now. Its still being looked for but I fear it may have walked off years ago. I still have a few other option but all require learning some new 3D modeling software. POV-Ray won't cut it for shapeways. The other option is finding someone willing to help me turn my POV-Ray CSG's into STL meshs. I'll get there... just not near as fast as I'm sure you could.
Oskar wrote:
2) I notice that the blue (and also the orange) part always stay at the same half of the puzzle. Can you make a design where all parts can be interchanged with all other parts of the same shape?

The orange parts are confined to just 2 corners on the puzzle (talking about the Dino1x2x3).
The blue parts are confined to half (just 4 corners) of the puzzle.
Even the yellow edges which can visit all 8 corners can't all be interchanged with each other. On the Dino1x1x2 and Dino1x2x2 there are two sets which never exchange pieces. I haven't worked it out on the Dino1x2x3 but I think there are at least 2 sets there as well.

This is the nature of this puzzle, not a restriction of this design. If the pieces could be exchanged it would be a different puzzle. Look at the edges on your Fadi Cube. I don't think two adjacent edges can be exchanged on that puzzle.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Ever since this morning, I've been thinking about the orbits of these pieces, but first I'll respond to a few other quotes.
Oskar wrote:
2) I notice that the blue (and also the orange) part always stay at the same half of the puzzle. Can you make a design where all parts can be interchanged with all other parts of the same shape?
I think the complexity of the orbits of the other piece well makes up for it. This is still a fascinating puzzle.
wwwmwww wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
You should be able to do the same thing with these new pieces right?
Yes... with these pieces you could build any Dino Cuboid which moved 3 edges in per corner. The thing is I'm not sure there are any other new puzzles to make here.
Right, there are no new puzzles (until we settle that 1x2x5 reduction thing), but you could recreate all of the previously discussed dino cuboids with this set of pieces + new cores.
wwwmwww wrote:
The orange parts are confined to just 2 corners on the puzzle (talking about the Dino1x2x3).
The blue parts are confined to half (just 4 corners) of the puzzle.
Even the yellow edges which can visit all 8 corners can't all be interchanged with each other. On the Dino1x1x2 and Dino1x2x2 there are two sets which never exchange pieces. I haven't worked it out on the Dino1x2x3 but I think there are at least 2 sets there as well.
If you look, you'll notice that the blue pieces are the "yellow" pieces of a 0x1x2. The Orange pieces are the "yellow" pieces of a -1x0x1.
Is this regression the same thing as what you did for the Multidodecahedron? The -1x0x1 is like a megaminx. The 0x1x2 is like a pyraminx crystal. The 1x2x3 is like a starminx. When I say "like" I don't mean there is a direct connection between the two, just that new pieces appear when you make the cuts deeper.

Okay, I've worked out all the orbits and they're kind of interesting, especially the yellow ones. Carl is right, there are 2 of them. I've only drawn one here of each color. The blue and orange ones are less interesting.
Attachment:
Cuboid123WireOrbit.png
Cuboid123WireOrbit.png [ 11.2 KiB | Viewed 11691 times ]
Here's a picture I colored to show the different orbits.
Attachment:
Cuboid123OrbitPieces.png
Cuboid123OrbitPieces.png [ 16.73 KiB | Viewed 11691 times ]
The lines in my wireframe drawing overlap a lot so I drew a graph of each piece type orbit in 2D. There is a piece at each vertex. "p/o" = Pieces per orbit.
Attachment:
Cuboid123Orbits.png
Cuboid123Orbits.png [ 5.16 KiB | Viewed 11691 times ]

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Does this exhaust all possible Dino "cuboids"? I want to say that the 1x2x5 would just be the same as 1x2x3, but haven't checked.
I've been thinking about this more and I think I can say that it does not. Take a look at the 3x4x5.
Attachment:
Cuboid345.png
Cuboid345.png [ 10 KiB | Viewed 11672 times ]
I think you can make an infinite number of these. The orbits have got to be pretty cool looking. Somehow, this is starting to remind me of those tiny pieces that were left out of the Constellation 6 which makes it a fudged puzzle. I wonder if the ratios between the n,m,k, in nxmxk are irrational, wouldn't we end up with an infinite number of pieces?

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
GuiltyBystander wrote:
but you could recreate all of the previously discussed dino cuboids with this set of pieces + new cores.
You could. Not sure you'd want to. You'd have a puzzle with more pieces then needed and likely less stable then it could be.
GuiltyBystander wrote:
If you look, you'll notice that the blue pieces are the "yellow" pieces of a 0x1x2. The Orange pieces are the "yellow" pieces of a -1x0x1.
Yes, but as a puzzle I'd say a -1x0x1 is the same as a 0x0x1. The "negative" only comes into play when you add the next level of pieces.
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Is this regression the same thing as what you did for the Multidodecahedron? The -1x0x1 is like a megaminx. The 0x1x2 is like a pyraminx crystal. The 1x2x3 is like a starminx. When I say "like" I don't mean there is a direct connection between the two, just that new pieces appear when you make the cuts deeper.
Yes, its the same. With the megaminx I can continue that regression/progression all the way to the deep cut version of the puzzle. Not sure what that would be here but the process is certainly starting off the same way.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
GuiltyBystander wrote:
I've been thinking about this more and I think I can say that it does not. Take a look at the 3x4x5.
I had to look at the for a while to see that you could separate all the pieces but yes I think you can. Could you make an image like this for the 1x2x5? And I see we are jumping from 3 edges turning with each corner to 5. Do we need to skip 4? What about the 2x3x4? I'm not sure how many edges you can hold on to with a single corner before the mech to hold in the last edge would get cut off by the edge but you just might be able to make these. I don't see much point in designing these at the moment though. Need to get these into the real world and see how the design works in practice. My mass produced Mosaic cube is just a 2x2x2 and it has stability issue, so a printed 1x2x3 may be a unwieldly beast.
GuiltyBystander wrote:
I think you can make an infinite number of these. The orbits have got to be pretty cool looking. Somehow, this is starting to remind me of those tiny pieces that were left out of the Constellation 6 which makes it a fudged puzzle. I wonder if the ratios between the n,m,k, in nxmxk are irrational, wouldn't we end up with an infinite number of pieces?
Well by definition n,m,k are integers... so their ratio is rational. But there are an infinite number of rationals. So yes in principle you could make a puzzle with an arbitrarily large number of pieces this way.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:11 am
Location: Marin, CA
I think your classification of AxBxC doesn't capture the whole story. Each edge has a certain number of yellow pieces, and also a certain number of those pieces are overlap between the two slices. When there's an overlap of exactly one, which includes most of the examples listed above, then there are very simple dino-style sequences for solving the entire puzzle.

For each puzzle the invariant across all edges is that number of pieces plus overlap must be equal to an even constant, which makes the simplest version which doesn't have simplistic solving sequences one where the overlaps are 2 of 4 and 3 of 3. In order to make it possible to separate all pieces, that would have to be 3 of 3 in two directions and 2 of 4 in the other, so I very strongly recommend that one as a version which is reasonably mechanically simple and actually interesting to solve.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Bram wrote:
For each puzzle the invariant across all edges is that number of pieces plus overlap must be equal to an even constant, which makes the simplest version which doesn't have simplistic solving sequences one where the overlaps are 2 of 4 and 3 of 3. In order to make it possible to separate all pieces, that would have to be 3 of 3 in two directions and 2 of 4 in the other, so I very strongly recommend that one as a version which is reasonably mechanically simple and actually interesting to solve.

That could easily be made with these pieces. I'll get it rendered up soon. Thanks for the tip.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
wwwmwww wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
but you could recreate all of the previously discussed dino cuboids with this set of pieces + new cores.
You could. Not sure you'd want to. You'd have a puzzle with more pieces then needed and likely less stable then it could be.
I think the advantage would be that you'd need fewer molds if it was being mass produced. You could also "easily" swap the cores out to create new puzzle without having to buy a whole new set of pieces. This is similar to what you wanted to do with the Crazy Plus Planets by Dayan.
wwwmwww wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
If you look, you'll notice that the blue pieces are the "yellow" pieces of a 0x1x2. The Orange pieces are the "yellow" pieces of a -1x0x1.
Yes, but as a puzzle I'd say a -1x0x1 is the same as a 0x0x1. The "negative" only comes into play when you add the next level of pieces.
wwwmwww wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
I think you can make an infinite number of these. The orbits have got to be pretty cool looking. Somehow, this is starting to remind me of those tiny pieces that were left out of the Constellation 6 which makes it a fudged puzzle. I wonder if the ratios between the n,m,k, in nxmxk are irrational, wouldn't we end up with an infinite number of pieces?
Well by definition n,m,k are integers... so their ratio is rational. But there are an infinite number of rationals. So yes in principle you could make a puzzle with an arbitrarily large number of pieces this way.
You could also define n,m,k just as a distance measurement of the overlap in some arbitrary units. This way you can have negative n,m,k. You're right that the negative dimension would solve the same as a zero dimension. You can also have irrational ratios. But I've been thinking of a new way to draw the pieces and just irrational ratios isn't enough to make an infinite number of pieces. I'll get to this new idea in a later post. For now, all I'll say about the new thing is "iterated function system."
wwwmwww wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
I've been thinking about this more and I think I can say that it does not. Take a look at the 3x4x5.
I had to look at the for a while to see that you could separate all the pieces but yes I think you can. Could you make an image like this for the 1x2x5? And I see we are jumping from 3 edges turning with each corner to 5. Do we need to skip 4? What about the 2x3x4?
A 2x3x4 would work too. I just happened to be fiddling with the overlaps and ended up with the 3x4x5. Here's the 1x2x5.
Attachment:
Cuboid125.png
Cuboid125.png [ 7.24 KiB | Viewed 11553 times ]

wwwmwww wrote:
I'm not sure how many edges you can hold on to with a single corner before the mech to hold in the last edge would get cut off by the edge but you just might be able to make these. I don't see much point in designing these at the moment though. Need to get these into the real world and see how the design works in practice. My mass produced Mosaic cube is just a 2x2x2 and it has stability issue, so a printed 1x2x3 may be a unwieldly beast.
It seems like you should be able to calculate the max number of pieces per edge just like we can do to show that a cubic 7x7x7 is impossible. What kind of cuts are you using? Just spheres? And yes, it would definitely need a different mech than the Mosaic cube.
Which version would you like to see first? boublez's initial idea (1x2x2) would have the best stability, but I really love some of the orbits on the on the 1x2x3.
Bram wrote:
I think your classification of AxBxC doesn't capture the whole story. Each edge has a certain number of yellow pieces, and also a certain number of those pieces are overlap between the two slices. When there's an overlap of exactly one, which includes most of the examples listed above, then there are very simple dino-style sequences for solving the entire puzzle.

For each puzzle the invariant across all edges is that number of pieces plus overlap must be equal to an even constant, which makes the simplest version which doesn't have simplistic solving sequences one where the overlaps are 2 of 4 and 3 of 3. In order to make it possible to separate all pieces, that would have to be 3 of 3 in two directions and 2 of 4 in the other, so I very strongly recommend that one as a version which is reasonably mechanically simple and actually interesting to solve.
What do you mean by "doesn't capture the whole story?" Assuming A<=B<=C, the invariant should be 2*C. If you make it any larger, those extra pieces will be virtually bandaged to the corners.
Granted, if we move on to 2 cuts per corner, the AxBxC won't properly describe them. "XxYxZ + Cuts(N,M)" should work where X,Y,Z are yellow pieces per edge, and N,M are number of yellow pieces per moved in each cut.

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Compy/Dino Cubiod
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:00 am
wwwmwww wrote:
My mass produced Mosaic cube is just a 2x2x2 and it has stability issue, so a printed 1x2x3 may be a unwieldy beast.

I'm sort of expecting this puzzles to be a very squishy one at the very least. I would really like to see this be come physical in the near future. We could all get an idea of what is and isn't possible and explore the possibilities of making a more complex puzzle.

Is anyone working towards making a printable file? I would like to print the 1x2x3 but I'm thinking that it might be wiser to print the 1x1x2 or 1x2x2.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 158 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group