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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:11 am 
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Termite wrote:
I think reducing the corners of the saturn, after the edges are placed, works quite good.
That's an interesting idea! I'll try it, when I have time for a next Saturn solve. :)
Termite wrote:
All the edges except the four of your top 0-face are scrambled around after reducing, but this doesn't matter, since they are all still correct oriented.
Maybe, you could elaborate this in more detail? You could use corner permutations that do not change the edges at all. If you have one 0 face on U (let's say U = white), the other 0 face is D (D= yellow). All vertical faces (F, R, B,L) can be turned, safely. You would build the completed corners on U, right? You better do not use any D turns for setups, unless the D corners are oriented in a way that you do not destroy any completed corners.
If your corner reductions makes it easier to solve the circle corners, the building of the edges may still be harder than on the other planets.

Could you, possibly, use the simulator to share a few more details about your edges method? :) (ULRD is the bandaging pattern for Saturn)
Termite wrote:

After looking at those crazy megaminx diagrams I not sure which of earth or saturn is the harder megaminx...

Michael
Let's first find out, if schuma's and my theory about Saturn being the hardest Crazy 3x3x3 is correct or not :D

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:33 am 
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I have yellow and white as 0-faces. I combine and place edge after edge. I begin with a 1-face, then an adjacent 1-face then those last three edges that at the end only 3 edges of a 0-face are scrambled. Somehow I can better solve it that way than with a 1-face as last face. I hold it 0-face as top and twist the last edges with L, F, R und T turns around. The import thing is, the edges need not be exact the right place, they just need to be oriented correctly, i.e. after combining you must be able to place them without turning a 0-face.

Then I reduce the corners, then solve as 3x3x3 without turning 0-faces.
This shows the corner reduction quite fine (although spoken in chinese):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEJZdldK ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd4KdgxR ... re=related

I found this on the same day I manged to reduce my corners for the first time. It would have saved me one week of frustrating trying :-)

I think the saturn is a little bit more difficult than the mars, because of the edge reduction of the last three edges. The corner pairing is a little bit easier to see on the mars too.
The solving as 3x3x3 is a little bit more funny on the mars, since you can only turn three sides.

Michael

ps: *Argh* Earth or Saturn Megaminx???? :-)



Michael


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:36 am 
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Michael, if you are asking which megaminx to buy, I say Earth, because I have one and I appreciate more people to chat with about it.. eventually. I will put some pics of mine at the moment.. It seems to me that Earth will be harder due to the limited availability of bandaged faces for inside edge/corner placement, yet there are enough to spread them anywhere in scrambling.

Thanks for your suggestions Konrad. Of course, you know that it will take a while to develop a method so it is great to know which one to choose, I will keep in touch but it may be a while to do (and live my life at the same time).

Burgo.
Edit: I set up my SmaZ as a Mercury tonight, and I see, very easy in comparison to Earth. I don't think it is worth the trouble of the end game, without the challenge of the inside edge placement. I will set it up as a Saturn next. I am daunted to do it, because it was said that it is `2X as hard as all of the others combined`!!


Attachments:
File comment: Bandaged= Blue+Grey & Blue+White.
megaminx.gif
megaminx.gif [ 21.43 KiB | Viewed 8295 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)
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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:30 am 
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On my Saturn, there is a little gremlin who lives on the back of the cube. And when I do something, he messes with something else! :twisted:

Edit: Sat 26 Feb.

OK, I have a method for the Saturn based on my method for the Earth. I think it's not too different. I prefer the Earth for solving because the final small pieces are hard to place in the Saturn. I have done my first solve right up to placing 4 small corners and I messed up the `set up` `restore` and :scrambled: :shock:

The cycling is messier for the small circle corners. The smallest I can manage is a 5 cycle and 6 cycle (2X `3 cycle` at the same time). I will try to develop something smoother. Maybe you have something already?

I have a smooth method for the rest of the cube that I am happy with. I will post a method soon, with some pics to illustrate. I will take them on my second solve.. because of coarse I have to solve it again now, don't I :scrambled: !!

Edit. Sun 27 Feb.

Solved it today, first complete solve. My setup move for the last 3 circle corners was about 13 moves long. I have sorted out some algs for the circle corners, just variations so far, other 5 cycles, and 2 switching algs (2x 2 pieces swapped at once) but they are cumbersome. I will work a bit more on this before I post a full method.

Burgo
PS I put the little gremlin in a jar with a screw top lid `out of kids reach`, lets hope he doesn't get out and mess with my cubes again.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:38 am 
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OK, I will put down my method for the Saturn. I have orange and red as unbandaged. And U and D are bandaged.

For this cube I built the outside edges and circle edges together. Start with the white cross (as D). Placing the `side` circle edges first works best. Then fit the 2 white parts to them. White cross complete. Next the orange and red (unbandaged) `middle layer` circle edges, and then build and fit the rest of the edge (for all 4 `middle layer` edges). F2L edges complete.

Complete 4 `top layer` edges. Use FURU’R’F’ to create the pattern in the photograph (or its mirror). NB you only need to `make` the edges with this alg, `not place them`. Notice the construction of the 4 edges. You can switch them (U back with U right) around with the `parity` alg RU’ RU RU RU’ R’U’ R2 U (with F & U bandaged) it will `not` move the inside circle edge from the U face that sits in the `top row`. Also R2 U FB’ R2 F’B U2 FB’ R2 F’B U R2 (with R bandaged) is helpful to cycle 3 edges around (but it will also move the piece in the `top row` with any cycling edge). When applied with R as unbandaged it will `only` make a clean 3 cycle of the `outside edges`. With this you can easily build the pattern in the photograph. Then apply FURU’R’F’ or F’U’L’ULF for the mirror and the 4 edges will be orientated.

Use R2 U FB’ R2 F’B U2 FB’ R2 F’B U R2 (with R bandaged) to cycle the circle edges in the `top row`. Use the same alg (with R unbandaged) for a clean cycle of the outside edges. And then the parity alg if needed. All edges placed and completed.

I cycle (U’RUR’)x3 and its variants to place all corners and (UR’U’R)X2 U... to orientate them. This will work on any `bandaged` or `unbandaged` face pattern because it is a perfect cycle. If you do not understand I can elaborate, but I’m sure you know it.

Last is the small corners. Your method with U unbandaged makes a 5 cycle. I have made about 5 different 5 cycles also, but they are complex and not very useful (no greater use), and some complex 2X 2pieces swaps. But the one of most use is to swap 2X 2 pieces between the U and D unbandaged faces, you can switch any two as long as they are in opposite positions. (U’RUR’)x3 FB’ (U’RUR’)x3 F’B (Unbandaged as F) NB FB can be more than one turn (and I turn the middle layer, but I forget what that’s called). I am also beginning to use middle layer turns as part of my setups to allow different types of `bandaged` `unbandaged` turns on any face, and this is really helping.

Burgo.


Attachments:
File comment: I added these images for clarity.
saturn-algs.gif
saturn-algs.gif [ 73.11 KiB | Viewed 8143 times ]
File comment: pattern required in orientating black (U) cross
pattern-for-orientation.gif
pattern-for-orientation.gif [ 26.39 KiB | Viewed 8234 times ]
File comment: Orientated black (U) cross
orientated-U.gif
orientated-U.gif [ 27.89 KiB | Viewed 8234 times ]
File comment: edges complete
edges-complete.gif
edges-complete.gif [ 26.79 KiB | Viewed 8234 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:57 am, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:50 am 
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Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
Termite wrote:
I got the app running in opera (under linux) for most cubes (some 4x4x4 do not show) after changing the line 21 of CircleCubes.htm to:

line 21 to
<script type="text/javascript">

and lines 31 and 32 to

var order=document.getElementsByName("order").item(0);
var Speed=document.getElementsByName("Speed").item(0);

After that the java app starts up (allthough not rock stable :) )

Michael



Thank you Michael. Bish@twistypuzzles has just done a thorough cleaning of the code, which includes your first suggestion to line 21. The current version in

viewtopic.php?p=246031#p246031

should work with several major browswers. He also made the interface more user-friendly. Mr. Hu also fixed the bug of setting 3-color, 4-color, 6-color versions of the double circle puzzles. I think the simulator is much better now. Let me know if you have more suggetions. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:19 am 
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schuma wrote:
...Thank you Michael. Bish@twistypuzzles has just done a thorough cleaning of the code, which includes your first suggestion to line 21. The current version in

viewtopic.php?p=246031#p246031

should work with several major browswers. ...
Thanks schuma, thanks Michael, thanks Bish!!!!
I have tested the update with 4 browsers on W7/x64:
Opera, Chrome, Firefox seem to be OK (a brief test only)
IE V9 beta doesn't show a picture and the browser crashed later on.

That is much better than before: The dodecahedron works now too. (Version one has run with Opera only, and the cubes only.)

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:33 am 
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Hi Guys,

I Solved the Neptune today. I did not think I would get addicted to these, but I think I am. So far I think I like the Earth and the Saturn the best. I don't think I can pick them apart for fun/interesting solving (or hardness). I think it is difficult to tell which is harder to solve. They all have difficulties in different areas (so far). Mercury and Jupiter though are obviously easier because only one face is different.

As for buying another one, maybe just the Saturn, so far. I have the SmaZ that I can change around. IMO that is how they should be sold: as a standard with 6 bandage pieces, and make all those pieces transparent. Same with the megaminx. I think more people would get involved and they might even sell more in the long run. The die hards would still get an 8 pack.

I owe you big time for helping me get over the hurdle to solve these, thanks so much. :D
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:32 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
If you have an easy way flipping the outer and the inner edges, just using moves of the described 3 faces, you can solve the Saturn.
With U and D as the 0 faces, I tried flipping two complete edges using only {F,L,R} and I found R2 F R F2 L F L2, which flips UF and UL. It also cycles several edges, making U-perms on U, L, and R. The edges on L and R can be cycled back into position by reorienting the cube and using the Rubik's PLL algo R2 U R U R' U' R' U' R' U R', and if needed the same algo repeated 4 times cycles the edges on U. Tomorrow I will check out Burgo's interesting alternative method of finishing the Saturn edges.

Edit: Corrected "A-perms" above to "U-perms".

Edit 2: Oops, I was lucky with my first Saturn solve and I have now realized that the above algo doesn't help resolve orientation problems with the first two layers, if reducing all the edges first. I have summarized a different method here.


Last edited by Julian on Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:30 am 
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Hi Julian,

Please feel free to give some feedback, I would like to know if my method is significantly different or not, because I am intentionally trying not to read other methods too closely and to develop my own. Here is what I have for Neptune:

Neptune: Bandaged = Green, Orange, White.

Inside circle crosses:
Black(yellow) cross (top face) >
`Centre row` (red>blue>green) >
White cross (bottom face).
Exchange from `top row` to `bottom row` to place `bottom row`: Turn bottom row `desired position` to F (orange or green), do F2, turn in `desired piece` with a U layer turn, and do F2. Then return with a D layer turn.
I use straightforward `turn down and replace` exchanges for the `top row` to complete it (on the 2 bandaged faces). Eg, turn one piece down with F’, turn the U’ layer across it, turn it back F, U, F’. Something like that. I will edit and post a better explanation next time I solve it.

Outside edges:Bottom 4 edges (turn across unbandaged faces to place from U layer F2 U F2) >
`Middle row` orange/green (F2 R2 to take the `edge position` to the opposite side of the cube, place edge, R2 F2 to return) > green/red and blue/orange (F2, place, F2) > red/blue.
Top row: Orientate with FURU’R’F’ F&R unbandaged. Place with `white as U` and `bandaged as F` and `two to swap at lower right and lower rear`. Perform (R2 B2) RU’ RU RU RU’ R’U’ R2 U (B2 R2). Continue to switch outside edges until placed. All edges complete.

Place and orientate corners: I cycle (U’RUR’)x3 and its variants to place all corners and (UR’U’R)X2 U... to orientate them.

Last is the small corners. Same 3 cycle alg, slightly different pattern. Works well.

Burgo.


Attachments:
File comment: clarification of terminology `rows`
rows.gif
rows.gif [ 8.17 KiB | Viewed 8139 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:50 am 
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Hi Guys,
Just a note to say I solved the Jupiter today. Actually, I think it was the hardest one yet, with my method anyway (not by a huge amount, but by enough). I take back what I said about `it must be easy because only one side is different`, I wrongly assumed it was similar to Mercury. I don't think I would have solved it if it weren't for the combined experience of solving the other puzzles. I will post my method for it later, when I get time to write it out (I am happy with it, it's smooth enough, just).
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:58 am 
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Burgo wrote:
Hi Guys,
Just a note to say I solved the Jupiter today. Actually, I think it was the hardest one yet, with my method anyway ...Burgo.
As I have said in a PM to you already, I do not have the time right now to look at your method in detail. It is a bit surprising that you feel that Jupiter is harder than Saturn. Jupiter was my third Crazy 3x3x3 (after Mercury and Neptune) and I have perceived it as the easiest by far. Later on (before GuiltyBystander's post), I have seen that reduction makes it even easier :)

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:20 am 
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I am just going through these different planets 1 per day after work and writing my progress, I haven't tried the reduction method on any yet. It's possible that I am speaking too early without trying other methods. I have just read guilty bystander's post so I will try that method when I get time. The thing that I found hard about Jupiter was that I did a (as in above post) Saturn style `orientate last 4 edges`. Then I had to change faces to `cycle outer edges` (R'L F'B UD', 3cycle, and return) which I did not do with any other configuration. Then it was a 5 cycle not a 3 cycle for the final `inside circle corners` (which is the slightly harder one). The method was not really `harder` than Saturn, but it was `about the same` and `it had one more step`. But, it has the advantage of being the same as my other solves, so it does not require learning a new method. :)
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:11 pm 
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Hello Friends,

So far I have solved all but one of the planets. As an assessment of the method I used I will rate the difficulty of the solve: Mercury 4, Earth 7.5, Neptune 7.5, Uranus 7.5, Mars 7.5, Saturn 8, Jupiter 8.1, Venus 10.

Let me clarify Venus: Venus is one of the easiest in the first stages, then parity is difficult, but what I have found the most difficult is the end game (small circle corners). Because I have not found a method of cycling them better than a 6 cycle (2X 3cycle) and the setups for this are hampered by 4 unbandaged sides. I have not solved it yet, the best I have done is `6 remaining circle corner pieces`. I am looking for a better `circle corner cycle`. If anyone has one it might save me some time (and then the rating would be adjusted to 7.5)? It would go to a rating of 6 if parity was not so convoluted also (I can do it easily but it uses many methods in a clunky way that increases the difficulty of the solve IMO).

Here is what I had to do for parity (Blue and green are bandaged):
1. Line up 1 incorrect edge (inside circle edge from top row) with its `matching coloured` bandaged face (use as U).
2. Turn the other incorrect `O/S edge` onto `this bandaged face` also.
3. Perform parity alg ` RU' RU RU... ` with `this bandaged face` as U.
4. Turn faces back.
5. Exchange up for `black circle edge` with `side circle edge`.
6. 3 cycle `O/S edges` (R'FRF' with 2 unbandaged faces R&F)
7. Orientate `O/S edges` with FURU'R'F'.
8. 3 cycle `O/S edges` with `R2 U FB' R2 ... in above post`
I will include photos. Anyone have a better method?

Thanks,
Burgo.

EDIT: Solved the Venus this afternoon 6/3/11 (last one solved), the setup move for the last 3 pieces was 15 moves long, I had to write it down so I wouldn't forget my restore!


Attachments:
File comment: 1. Parity, one incorrect O/S edge on matching bandaged face.
parity.gif
parity.gif [ 27.39 KiB | Viewed 8044 times ]
File comment: 3. Move other incorrect edge to bandaged face.
parity-alg-position.gif
parity-alg-position.gif [ 26.02 KiB | Viewed 8044 times ]
File comment: 4. Parity alg performed.
after-parity-alg.gif
after-parity-alg.gif [ 25.85 KiB | Viewed 8044 times ]
File comment: 6. Return black and green `circle edge`s, need to 3 cycle O/S edges on F, R & U.
dduu-edge-cycle.gif
dduu-edge-cycle.gif [ 26.2 KiB | Viewed 8044 times ]
File comment: 7. and 8. Need to orientate O/S edges, then 3 cycle them on U.
orientate-2-edges.gif
orientate-2-edges.gif [ 27.15 KiB | Viewed 8044 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:11 pm 
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As I promised Konrad here is the method I used for Jupiter (unbandaged face as black `or yellow` & U):

1. White inside circles
2. Pair up `side colour` & `outside edge` on top row. F2, U turn, F2 to install. White cross complete including O/S edges & bottom row edges.
3. Build & place centre row edges (using R’FRF’ where possible to flip and place edges). All centre row O/S edges & circle edges placed.

I found the first part is not too difficult, but I found it a bit more restrictive than most planets for moving pieces around (you are required to use only `one face` to divide or join anything). IMO this is on the `slightly` more difficult end. (I can also see that for a `reduction method` it `might be easier` because of all the places to store and move `complete pieces` without breaking them. But I have not tried this method yet).

4. Orientate U face: Same as for Saturn (Jupiter specific diagram included).

This section is equivalent to Saturn, the difficulty is memorizing the pattern of movement and visualizing its application ( same as for Saturn). Again, not that hard, but harder than piece exchange in the other planets.

5. 3 cycle circle edges in top row with `R2 U FB’ R2…`
6. My 3 cycle for O/S edges in the U face requires an unbandaged edge on R. So I move the U face to L with R’L F’B UD’, then perform my 3 cycle `O/S edges` with `R2 U FB' R2 ...` using the unbandaged face as R, and then return with U’D FB’ RL’ (using the unbandaged face as U again).
7. Parity. The `RU’ RU RU…` parity alg requires a bandaged face as U so it is best to notice parity before restoring the `face swap`.

This `face swap` is the `added difficulty` that I probably add a 0.1 to its score for.

8. Place and orientate corners: I cycle (U’RUR’)x3 and its variants to place all corners and (UR’U’R)X2 U... to orientate them as usual.
9. Last is the small corners. Using the alg (RU’ L’U RU’ LU) y’ (L’U RU’ LU R’U’) I was only able to achieve the same 5 cycle as the Saturn. Because this 5 cycle includes 3 on the same face it can be used `as if it were` a 3 cycle at the end, so it is not too difficult. But as for a score, with this method, it is as hard as the Saturn. :)

Burgo.


Attachments:
File comment: Orientate U face, Jupiter
Jupiter-pattern.gif
Jupiter-pattern.gif [ 20.78 KiB | Viewed 8029 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:49 am 
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I just read back through all the thread thoroughly. I have a more refined method for Earth and I would prefer to update the start. It is very smooth. (Bandaged = orange & white / yellow as U)

Inside crosses first
1. Yellow inside circle cross
2. Red centre row
3. Blue & green (`next to red` centre row pieces only)
4. 3 pieces of white cross (except for `next to orange`)
5. Use missing white piece to insert last green & blue in centre row.
6. White cross last piece.
7. Use top row to build bottom row with target position on orange (bandaged as F) F2, turn U (target piece onto F), F2, turn D to place.
8. Place top row and orange centre row by F, and U turns, F', U to place, etc.. There is no need for a 3 cycle alg on this cube, but you could use it if it was opportune.
O/S edges
1. Place white edge on U face (it will turn there with simple `set up` turn off and `restore` moves on unbandaged faces). Then use F2, U turn (to place O/S edge), F2 (with an unbandaged side as F). Complete white cross.
2. Turn sides `on orange` R2 `to red` (place the target OS edge on U face to opposite side from the 1st R2 turn before starting). Turn O/S edge in with R'FRF', turn white O/S edge back into place, then R2 to place.
3. Insert the 2 red O/S edges with R'FRF'.
4. Use FURU'R'F' to orientate U face O/S edges (Use any configuration other than bandaged as R).
5. Cycle unsolved O/S edges with 3 cycle R2 U FB' R2 F'B U2 FB' R2 F'B U R2 (bandaged face on L).
6. 2 edge parity, make `white U` and `orange F` and place 2 unsolved edges on R & B faces. Perform (R2 B2) RU' RU RU RU' R'U' R2 U (B2 R2).

From here the solve is `as above`. My previous post was a work in progress and I didn't realize how much my method had changed. This gives a clearer picture. I want to encourage others to get the circle cubes if they don't have them. Get the Earth: here is an easy method. It is my favourite to `solve`. :wink: :D

Burgo.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:36 am 
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Konrad & Burgo,

I have had to hold off on reading your summaries for a few more days because they contain vital info that I'm still fumbling around to discover for myself! While I am able to solve the inner and outer edges of Mercury (1) without using what I would call algorithms, I have found now with Neptune (80) that I do need a few actual algorithms to solve the edges.

My relative ratings so far...

Code:
Rubik's Cube  1.0
Circle Cube   1.2
Jupiter       1.5
Mercury       1.9
Fused Cube    2.0
Uranus        2.0
Saturn        2.3
I am guessing that I will find Earth (11) about as difficult as Saturn (010); Venus (101) about as difficult as Neptune (80), which I hope to finish today and I would provisionally rate at 2.5 in the above table; and Mars (111) the hardest of all. By the end of next weekend I should know for sure.

My methods are similar to Konrad and schuma:

Jupiter (0) -- pair all the inner and outer pieces (I prefer to pair all edges first), then solve like a restricted Rubik's Cube, without turning the 0 face.

Uranus (00) -- same as Jupiter, except with two adjacent 0 faces.

Mercury (1) -- inner edges, then outer edges, then outer corners, then inner corners. The first stage is intuitive; the second stage is a mixture of intuition and experimenting with Rubik's Cube layer-by-layer knowledge; the third stage uses a completely pure Rubik's PLL algorithm to cycle 3 corners around a face; and the final stage uses a commutator made from the pure corner cycling algorithm.

Saturn (010) -- see here.


Last edited by Julian on Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:53 am 
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Burgo -- here are hints, without actual algorithms, to solve the outer and inner corners last with any of the Crazy 3x3x3 Plus puzzles...

Where we write a p q p' q' commutator as [p,q], and numbers mean the sequence lengths, find a [3,1] commutator to cycle 3 corners of a Rubik's Cube pure (no other changes to the puzzle, no edges move, no centers rotate).

Now, if your q move is 90 degrees, try 180 degrees instead, and look at opposite sides carefully. If you experiment with various possible commutators, you should find that the corners have moved the way they would on a cuboid, in other words, with no orientation change.

Now look for a 180 degree setup move, which you undo at the end, which will result in the 3 corners being cycled around the same face, still pure, with no orientation change. You have a choice of two possible setup moves, and with one choice, there is a move overlap making the algorithm 9 moves long in total rather than 10. Either way, the algorithm can be used to cycle the outer corners of any of the planet puzzles without affecting the edges.

Finally, if you experiment with making a commutator out of this algorithm, where you start off by cycling corners around a 0-face, you should be able to find a way of cycling the inner corners pure with any of the planet puzzles.

Edit: Added the text in blue; thanks to Konrad for pointing out that this method works with some [3,1] commutators but not others.


Last edited by Julian on Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Neptune (80)

1. Pair inner and outer edges. Where U, L, and B are 0-faces (inner pieces do not move), I first pair and place the edges at FL and FU, then BL and BU, then the idea is to pair an edge at a time using 180 degree turns of U and L in either order to complete each edge, with B unused, and {F,R,D} used to set up unsolved pieces and store complete edges. For example, an outer edge starts at UR, then moves to UL while joining with the inner edge piece on U at UL, then moves to DL while joining with the inner edge piece on L at DL, then a D twist moves the completed edge safely away. The tricky part is finishing this stage, where the goal is to make sure that the last 3 edges to be paired are at UR, UL, and DL, and that the final two moves leave the first 4 edges on L and U placed correctly while completing UL and solving it into position.

2. Solve the remaining edges. This is done using the 1-faces, like a cornerless Fused Cube. Leave 4 edges on one face to last. Reorienting so that the 1-faces are {F,R,U} and the last 4 edges are on U, flip edges in pairs with algos like FUR'U'R'F, then fix an odd perm if necessary with (R2 U R2 U' R2) (U' D) (R2 U' R2 U R2) D'. All even perms can be solved by one or two uses of the U-perm algo R2 U R U R' U' R' U' R' U R', with setup and undo use of the U face as necessary to avoid using a 0-face.

3. Cycle the outer corners non-pure (inner corner pieces are affected). Hints in my previous post.

4. Cycle the inner corners pure. Hints in my prevous post.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:12 am 
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Hi Julian,

The corner placement and orientation I use I will post here, I think from your hints you must be referring to something very similar? I developed this method after reading the Ultimate Solution, which I really like but I got frustrated applying the corner placement and orientation, which I could do but it was tedious. With my finishing method I can use only 1 short 4 sequence alg to solve an entire 3x3 cube, and I do it this way (pure form with Ultimate Solution as the beginning) in about 1:30ish. It’s not a speed solve, but it’s not slow. Probably others have come up with this too, but as far as I know, I have never seen this method in print. But the moves are common enough, it must have been done.

Place all corner pieces (not orientate):

Place back corners.Use yellow as F, and place all but 1 white corner. (From the yellow face to the white face).
(U’RUR’)X3 The target piece is the intersection of URF and the target position is the intersection of URB. F can be freely rotated to line up the next position. The cube can also be rotated around the Z-axis.

Place front corners.Keep yellow as F and place the 4 yellow corners. (Then the last white will be placed)
(UR’U’R)X3 The target piece is the intersection of URB and the target position is the intersection of URF. F can be freely rotated to line up the next position. NB ULB & DRB will continually exchange also so do not rotate the cube around the Z-axis.

Orientate all corner pieces:

(UR’U’R)X2 F’ (R’URU’)X2 F Look for 2 adjacent corners that need orientating. Place the face they are being orientated to on F (say green) and place the two `same` colours that should be on F (say 2 green) on R.

[(UR’U’R)X2 F’]X3 F2 or [(R’URU’)X2 F’]X3 F2 Look for 3 corners on the same face that need orientating (with all 3 corresponding `green` colours on seperate faces). Place the face they are being orientated to on F (green). Place the orientated piece on that face on ULF. If the piece on URF has the target colour (green) on U, use [(R’URU’)X2 F’]X3 F2. If the piece on URF has the target colour (green) on R, use [(UR’U’R)X2 F’]X3 F2.

The best thing about it is, it works on a supercube, and now on any planet cube. :D
Cheers,
Burgo.

PS The beauty of the simplicity of this 6 cycle, (combined with Ultimate Solution to begin) is one of the best moments of cubing for me. How sweet and pure this sequence is. Mind blowing.
PPS Sorry, here I go.. :roll: ..monologuing!

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:59 am 
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...


Last edited by bish on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:27 am 
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I tried the Jupiter with a reduction method this afternoon.

It is easier with the reduction method. It is almost incomparable to the other method but I will try to compare. There is no 3 cycle alg, no parity, no inside circle corner placement alg, and this makes the solve simpler in these respects. It requires the same type of looking around planning and execution that these things require. But you don’t build the cube in any sort of order as you go.

For the first time I felt like I was actually solving a 3x3. This is the easier method for this cube. I would rate it as a 5 compared to an 8.1 the other way. I would solve it this way more often, but I will still solve it the other way occasionally for fun. It IS very nice to solve the `crazy cube` a DIFFERENT way and I would definately recommend it (Jupiter) as `one to get` because of this (the others are all quite similar to solve).

I don't see the point in solving Uranus with reduction (other than for fun), it is only `average hardness` the other way and adding another unbandaged side increases difficulty with reduction.

The only other planet that I find `harder than I should` is Venus. I think Venus is the hardest one so far. What is your method specifically for Venus? How do you avoid the difficult 6 cycle at the end? The diagram shows this:

Thanks,
Burgo.

PS I can't believe I am still having fun with these, they have so much to offer!

EDIT Actually, I changed my mind a bit about Jupiter, if you have no experience with the other planets, I think it would be the easiest because you don't need to find out any algs or their application. You can just do it. It could rate 3 in that respect.


Attachments:
File comment: Venus 2X(3 cycle): 6 pieces move
Venus-6-cycle.gif
Venus-6-cycle.gif [ 12.16 KiB | Viewed 7846 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)
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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:21 am 
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I just received the complete Crazy 3x3x3 set in the mail. I have been looking forward to joining this discussion. So far I've only solved Mercury. Which I have to say, was easier than I expected based on what I've seen people write on the forum. It was still challenging, though! These are my steps:

1. Circle edges - intuition
2. Edges - intuition then switching to a pure [3,1]
3. Corners - pure [3,1]
4. Circle Corners - pure [8,1]

Step 4 is the trickiest part, as the algorithms will change according to where you place the "1 face". Which is why I haven't been able to find a shorter than [8,1] for this step yet. May also be useful to mention that I solve it with the "1 face" as the D face, right until step 4 where I switch to having it as the F face.

I will read back in this thread and see if you guys have been writing anything exiting about the Mercury :D

EDIT: I accidentally left out a part of step 2.


Last edited by Katja on Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:47 am 
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Katja wrote:
I just received the complete Crazy 3x3x3 set in the mail. ...
So far I've only solved Mercury. Which I have to say, was easier than I expected based on what I've seen people write on the forum. It was still challenging, though! ....
I will read back in this thread and see if you guys have been writing anything exiting about the Mercury :D
Welcome to the club Katja! :)
The difficulty perceived depends a lot on the method you come up with. E.g. I have made the complete edges at once in step 1. I have chosen the 1 face (white on mine) as the last. That was a bit tricky for this last face, especially handling a parity situation.
You will find several suggestions to do the Mercury differently.
That's what I find so interesting: There is much room for individual approaches.
Good luck with the other seven and, please, let us now, how you would order them regarding difficulty!

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:36 am 
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Konrad wrote:
The difficulty perceived depends a lot on the method you come up with.
I suppose you're right! I just solved Venus, and I think it was easier than Mercury. From what I've read so far, most people thought Venus was harder than Mercury.

Venus outline:

1. Circle edges - intuition
2. Edges - intuition
2.5. Parity Link to my parity fix post here.
3. Corners - pure [3,1], standard 3x3x3 corner algo
4. Circle corners - pure [8,1], same as Mercury

All of these steps were done very similar to how I did Mercury. Except that for step 2 I found that it would be much easier to simply use intuition rather than commutators. For the final edges, I switched to using a 6-move 3-cycle, which I'd still call intuition rather than algorithmic. For this step, the 1 faces were the U and D face.

Step 4 also became much easier now that there were two 1 faces I could set up the algorithm with. As with Mercury, the 1 faces were the F and B face during this step.

My difficulty rating so far:
Rubik's Cube: 1.0
Normal Circle Cube: 1.1
Venus: 1.5
Mercury: 1.7

Next up I'll have a go at Earth, which I suspect is much harder than Mercury or Venus!

EDIT: So, turns out Venus has a parity case (step 2.5 has been added and shown in bold in the outline above.) that can occur that I didn't get the first time I solved it. I have been able to fix the parity, but sadly I can't remember precisely what I did. I will have a look at it later today and see if I can come up with something. I also noticed that Burgo has outlined his parity fix, which I will also be reading at a later time.
EDIT2: I have added a link to my post on how to fix the parity case.


Last edited by Katja on Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Venus (101), Earth (11), Mars (111) and Saturn (010)

1. Build and solve edges intuitively, edge by edge, for the first two layers. I start with the first face as follows: Venus, a 1-face; Earth, a face opposite a 1-face; Mars, the 0-face that adjoins the other 0-faces; Saturn, a 1-face.

2. Solve the inner and outer edges of the last 1-face using Rubik's algos, similarly to Konrad's method and diagrams here. I make a cross of circle edges on the final face, then permute the other circle edges, then flip outer edges as necessary, then permute the outer edges.

3. Cycle outer corners with [3,1] commutators.

4. Cycle inner corners [9,1], where the 9 is [1: [3,1]] with a move cancellation, cycling 3 corners around a face with no orientation changes. Or, if you're clever like Katja, do this stage [8,1] instead. :)

Here are my relative difficulty ratings of popular cubic puzzles including the planets:

Code:
Rubik's Cube        1.0
Circle Cube         1.2
Jupiter             1.5
Mercury             1.9
Uranus, Fused Cube  2.0
Venus               2.1
Earth               2.2
Mars, Saturn        2.3
Neptune             2.4
Gear Cube Extreme   2.5
Square-1            3.0
Bandage Cube        3.5


Last edited by Julian on Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:09 pm 
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My approach for Earth is very similar to Julian's above:

Earth outline

1. Solve the circle edges intuitively for the first two layers.
2. Solve the edges for the first two layers - using an intuitive 6-move cycle.
3. Solve the edges and the circle edges for the last layer - using some intuition and then some last layer Rubik's Cube algo's.
4. Solve the corners - with simple [3,1]'s.
5. Solve the circle corners - using pure [8,3]'s.

I had so much trouble solving this puzzle. Especially step 2 and 3. For step 2 I kept the 1 faces as the D and B faces. The trouble here was when I got two edges in their correct spot but in the wrong orientation. To fix this, involved switching where I kept the 1 faces which made it harder to do.

The difficult part about step 3 is when you complete this entire step, except for the circle edges. The normal edges are easy to cycle, but I'm not completely sure how I managed to fix the two wrongly placed circle edges in the LL. I'll have to work on that :lol: 1 faces still labeled D and F/R/B/L.

For step 5 I wasn't able to find any easy [8,1]'s, like the one I used for Mercury and Venus. So instead I used an [8,3], which is a bit lengthy but works perfectly. For this stage I had the 1 faces as F and R.

Final verdict: Earth is way harder than Mercury or Venus!

Updated difficulty rating:
Rubik's Cube: 1.0
Normal Circle Cube: 1.1
Venus: 1.5
Mercury: 1.7
Earth: 2.3

I'm not completely sure if Earth is a 2.3 yet, but it is currently. I suspect that my ratings will change as I go through the remaining planets.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:38 pm 
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It's interesting to see different people have different rating for the difficulties. I wonder the following question: is there any crazy megaminx that is harder than the eight planets? For example, I found 3x3x3 Saturn very hard for me, even harder than the eight crazy megaminx's.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:51 am 
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Katja wrote:
From what I've read so far, most people thought Venus was harder than Mercury.

Venus outline:

4. Circle corners - pure [8,1], same as Mercury



Hi Katja,
I'm pretty new to cubing (about 5 months) so I am not familiar with your terminology. What is `pure [8,1]`? I have not been able to interpret Julian's hint yet either. Venus is not hard in the earlier stages, but I can't find an easier way to finish it off (inside circle corners). The 2x (3 cycle) I used is mentioned above, but this increases the difficulty (for me) beyond what it should be.

After all: I think there is really only 2 difficulties IMO: Mercury and Jupiter are the easier ones, and the others are harder (but about the same, just different), Saturn a tad harder. I'm just not sure on Venus yet because of the circle corners, which I think I must be doing `the hard way`.

Cheers,
Burgo.
PS Now that you have solved Earth, have a go with my method for it above, I think it is very smooth.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:00 am 
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schuma wrote:
It's interesting to see different people have different rating for the difficulties. I wonder the following question: is there any crazy megaminx that is harder than the eight planets? For example, I found 3x3x3 Saturn very hard for me, even harder than the eight crazy megaminx's.


Hi Schuma,
Did you try my method for Saturn that I posted? How does it compare? I think it's OK. I have been working on the Earth megaminx this weekend and I'm about 80% through it. It's pretty hard.
Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:27 am 
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Hi Burgo,
Burgo wrote:
I am not familiar with your terminology. What is `pure [8,1]`?
That's a commutator. I'm pretty sure you're already using them without knowing the term. Here is a conversation I had with Brandon a while back, have a look in the middle of his post to see what I think is a very good explanation. My response with an example for the structure of a [3,1] commutator is here. Have a read of that before reading what I'll write next.

So, assuming you perfectly understood those posts, my [8,1] commutator (which can be used for both Mercury and Venus) is made up of a [3,1] + (extra move) = [8,1]. I simply used a standard 3x3x3 corner 3-cycle, commuted it by adding an extra move which resulted in a pure 3-cycle of the circle corners.

My algorithm:

U, R, U', L', U, R', U', L,
M,
U', F', U, B, U', F, U, B',
M',

I added some colors to easily show you what part of the [8,1] come from the [3,1] + (extra move). The dark blue shows the "3" in the [3,1] and the light blue shows the "1" in the [3,1]. Both blue's combined make up the "8" in the [8,1], leaving the red to show the "1". A pure commutator is simply a routine that only cycles a desired piece type (in almost all cases you want the pure commutator to only cycle 3 pieces of the same type, hence the term 3-cycle), in this case it's the circle corners.
I hope the colors and everything wasn't too silly and actually clarified some of the terminology :lol: Also, I might mention that this is the common terminology used in the Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread. Have a look, you might find that you are interested to join that discussion as well!
Burgo wrote:
I'm pretty new to cubing (about 5 months)
For being that new, you're certainly doing great!
Burgo wrote:
PS Now that you have solved Earth, have a go with my method for it above, I think it is very smooth.
Thanks, I will! My method could use some input.

Also, I just solved Mars, which was terribly hard. I'll hold on sharing my method until I've solved it for a second time. But I think it would easily be a 2.5, if not more, on my difficulty rating.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
Hi Schuma,
Did you try my method for Saturn that I posted? How does it compare? I think it's OK. I have been working on the Earth megaminx this weekend and I'm about 80% through it. It's pretty hard.
Cheers,
Burgo.


Hi Burgo, I just scanned through your method for Saturn. I still think it's kind of complicated compared with other planets. My algorithms for solving other planets are nothing but something like [R,F',R',F], U, [F',R,F,R'],U' or some variations like [R,F',R',F]x2, U, [F',R,F,R']x2,U'. I consider those algorithms as "intuitive" coz I kind of understand them and I can use them flexibly. But for Saturn I need to find a weird setup move for the outer edges and remember it, so that I cannot use it flexibly. Further, I met an parity issue only on Saturn, but not on other planets. I believe whether you find parity or not really depends on the order of solving different types of pieces. And the fact that different methods can be used to solve the same puzzle is the beauty, isn't it.


Last edited by schuma on Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:08 pm 
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schuma wrote:
...but something like [R,L',R',L], U, [L',R,L,R'],U'
If I'm not misinterpreting this notation, I assume a typo here. R, L', R', L is a noop to me.
schuma wrote:
... And the fact that different methods can be used to solve the same puzzle is the beauty, isn't it.
Exactly!!!
schuma wrote:
...Here is my ranking of the relative difficulty:

- Reduction: Jupiter < Uranus

- Not-reduction: Mercury < Venus < Neptune < Earth < Mars < Saturn (I think Saturn is way harder than the others, combined :lol: )

Since I use different methods to solve the two categories, it's not easy to directly compare, for example, Jupiter and Mercury.
...
Julian sees Neptune as the hardest. This surprises me, as Neptune had been my second and I had found it pretty easy, because of the quite symmetric structure. To me, Saturn remains the hardest until I come up with a better strategy resolving the complete edges (triplets).
BTW, my solution for the circle corners is a [3,1] commutator followed by its mirrored brother. So, it is 16 moves for a pure 3-cycle of circle corners. This works for all planets with a different setup of 0 and 1 faces, except of Saturn.
For Saturn, I need a [9,1] commutator or even a [16,1] commutator. The last one allows for easier setups!
But the hardest thing about Saturn is in my original solution the last layer of edges. My last layer is a 1 face and I think a 0 face as the last one might be easier.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
schuma wrote:
...but something like [R,L',R',L], U, [L',R,L,R'],U'
If I'm not misinterpreting this notation, I assume a typo here. R, L', R', L is a noop to me.


Sorry I meant F instead of L. I've edited my post. Since I put the FR edge in the middle, F is on the left side.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Julian sees Neptune as the hardest. This surprises me, as Neptune had been my second and I had found it pretty easy, because of the quite symmetric structure. To me, Saturn remains the hardest until I come up with a better strategy resolving the complete edges (triplets).
...
But the hardest thing about Saturn is in my original solution the last layer of edges. My last layer is a 1 face and I think a 0 face as the last one might be easier.
I think it is easier to finish the Saturn edges with a 1 face last layer. I solve a cross of circle edges, then the other circle edges using Fused Cube algos where R is a 1 face, leaving the 4 outer edges to last. Where R is a 0 face, I permute 3 outer edges with R2 U R2 U2 R2 U R2, and swap 2 outer edges with R2 U R U R' U' R' U' R' U R' U'. The outer edges at UL and UR can be flipped with (B' R B) then the edge swap then (B' R' B).

I goofed with my earlier posts about Saturn; I was lucky with my first solve and I see now how tricky the edges are if one fully pairs them then tries to solve them. I've linked those posts to my outline for Venus, Earth, and Mars, to which I've added Saturn, because it can be solved the same way.

I may change my mind about Neptune, but I found the edges tricky. The layer-by-layer method of pairing and solving each edge into position one by one works well for Venus, Earth, Mars, and Saturn, but those all have middle layers with only 0-0 or 0-1 edges, no 1-1 ones, so I had to go with a different method. I'll try again sometime.

I came to the planets knowing the Fused Cube very well, and there are hardly any new algos beyond the Fused Cube needed to solve any of the planets, so my ratings are mostly my estimate of how I found the intuitive stuff to solve the edges of each puzzle.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:11 am 
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Thanks Katja, I look foreward to learning from those threads.

Hi Schuma, those algs that I use in the Saturn `U layer edge orientation and placement` are just common 3x3 algs or slight variations to them. I use FR'F'R as the backbone to my solves too. But I like to complete edges `in place` (for most planets) where I think others prefer to complete `triplets` and then move them around. I then orientate and cycle inside and outside edges in the U layer. The Saturn has the harder `U layer edge orientation`, that's all. For the rest of the solve it is about the same.

I like how we all have our own methods, and I want to try them all. I really liked the reduction method on Jupiter, two thumbs up!!

Cheers,
Burgo.

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PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:17 pm 
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Venus parity fix

As I said, I had another look at the parity situation for Venus and I found a pretty OK fix.

1 faces: White and yellow, labeled U and D.

Set up the parity to the position in this photo:
Attachment:
Skjermbilde 2011-03-15 kl. 22.58.31.png
Skjermbilde 2011-03-15 kl. 22.58.31.png [ 162.83 KiB | Viewed 7455 times ]
Perform the following algorithm:

[R, U,] x7
U,
[R', L, U',] L, F2, L', F2, [U, L', R,]

So it is actually quite simple. Therefore, I still think Venus is the easiest of the ones I've solved. I will link this to my original outline.

Also, how did the rest of you solve this parity?


Last edited by Katja on Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:42 pm 
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Katja wrote:
Venus parity fix

Also, how did the rest of you solve this parity?
I like your algo! There's a Rubik's PLL algo that solves the odd edge perm; from your diagram, assuming U/White = 1 and R/Green = 0, after a y2 rotation I do:

R2 U R U R' U' R' U' R' U R' U'

It's a Rubik's U-perm algo with a U' at the end. Although it has been known for many years, I discovered it independently by accident around a year or two ago. Doubling up R U R' U' out of curiosity to (R U R U) (R' U' R' U'), it is then obvious that with two more moves, R' U, the cube is back to solved except for 3 cycled edges. Then adding a single setup move R puts the cycled edges on the same layer, and with a move overlap this results in the familiar PLL algo: R2 U R U R' U' R' U' R' U R'. (I had been permuting edges of the last layer of the Fused Cube with [R2 U R2 U']x5 surrounded by 2 setup moves, and was experimenting to find something shorter.)

These algos, the [R U]x7 U of yours and the one above, are also useful with the last layer edges of Earth, Mars, and Saturn too, if we make sure to finish with a 1 face.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:53 am 
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Hi Guys,
Sorry for being a bit off topic, I know there is a megaminx thread but I haven't been talking on it, and I wanted to post my success to my new friends. I am so stoked. In the last bit I got so nervous about messing up the setup-restores. 60 little circle corners is a marathon!!

PS I taught my wife to solve the 3X3 Earth, so I'm 2X as happy, she's sitting there solving it by herself as I type!
Burgo.


Attachments:
megaminx-Earth.gif
megaminx-Earth.gif [ 87.96 KiB | Viewed 7482 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)
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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:23 am 
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Konrad wrote:
Congratulations Burgo! Nice to hear that other female persons are interested in Crazy puzzles as well. (In case you didn't know, Katja is female too. And one of the best solvers, female or male :D , as far, as I can say.)
Burgo wrote:
...
I am so stoked. In the last bit I got so nervous about messing up the setup-restores. 60 little circle corners is a marathon!!
...
Yeah, I know how that is :)

EDIT:This has been the "missing link" for me:
Julian wrote:
...
The outer edges at UL and UR can be flipped with (B' R B) then the edge swap then (B' R' B).
...
Using this elegant and simple trick, the Saturn is no longer my outstandingly hard Crazy puzzle. :D Thanks Julian!
P.S. I'm currently travelling and I'm occupied with other things, therefore, I do not have the time to read all the interesting posts here in detail.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:33 am 
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Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to draw attention to this suggestion:
I have written in the Crazy Meganminx thread
Konrad wrote:
It has been proposed that we include the Crazy Megaminx solution hints here.
I have changed the title to "How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx?"
I find the suggestion reasonable and given the similarity of Megaminx and 3x3x3, we should stop the discussion of the Crazy Megaminx here and make any future posts in the other thread.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:14 pm 
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Katja wrote:
I simply used a standard 3x3x3 corner 3-cycle, commuted it by adding an extra move which resulted in a pure 3-cycle of the circle corners.

My algorithm:

U, R, U', L', U, R', U', L,
M,
U', F', U, B, U', F, U, B',
M',


Thanks Katja,
This is the missing link for me: to make Venus as one of the easier planets. When applied with Bandaged as F & B it results in a nice little 3 cycle of URB >RDB > FUL. (essentially, you are doing the three cycle with unbandaged as U and then applying the undo with a bandaged face as U). This is a very nice `commutator`, well done! The colour scheme helps. Thanks for sharing the links, I read them thoroughly. You are right, I use them all the time (but did not know what they were), especially on skewb type puzzles like skewb cube, master skewb, skewb kite, etc. Where I wrote my own methods, then I looked at other methods for these puzzles and thought.. I could never do all that. Some of these moves are `long`, but because you invented them (and they're repetitive), you remember them.

I knew of the term `commutator`before, but now I am starting to `get it`. I am more of a `right brain` thinker and heavily `visual`, I see in terms of `visual patterns` and `what happens`, rather than remembering a formula. My visual memory is also very good, but remembering a phone number is not that easy. Commutators have these visual patterns.

I find the computer simulators hard to visualize, I like to hold the physical puzzle, but I'm glad they don't make all those puzzles because I would be broke.. but please make a few!!

Burgo.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Katja wrote:
Venus parity fix

As I said, I had another look at the parity situation for Venus and I found a pretty OK fix.

1 faces: White and yellow, labeled U and D.

Perform the following algorithm:

[R, U,] x7
U,
[R', L, U',] L, F2, L', F2, [U, L', R,]

Also, how did the rest of you solve this parity?


Julian already answered how we solve parity, I just wanted to point out that I solved Venus with bandaged as F & B (on the sides) therefore finished with U as unbandaged (and parity on unbandaged face with bandage on the side, hence my difficulty).

Burgo wrote:
Here is what I had to do for parity (Blue and green are bandaged):
1. Line up 1 incorrect edge (inside circle edge from top row) with its `matching coloured` bandaged face (use as U).
2. Turn the other incorrect `O/S edge` onto `this bandaged face` also.
3. Perform parity alg ` RU' RU RU... ` with `this bandaged face` as U.
4. Turn faces back.
5. Exchange up for `black circle edge` with `side circle edge`.
6. 3 cycle `O/S edges` (R'FRF' with 2 unbandaged faces R&F)
7. Orientate `O/S edges` with FURU'R'F'.
8. 3 cycle `O/S edges` with `R2 U FB' R2 ... in above post`
I will include photos. Anyone have a better method?


I notice you (and Julian) solved it with U as bandaged so parity is direct, what I did was move the parity to a bandaged face (essentially). I am going to give Venus another few solves.

EDIT:

VENUS METHOD ADJUSTMENT
For this way I would prefer White and Yellow as bandaged (so I will call it that way).

Inside edges with Green & Blue as U & D:
Green & Blue crosses (or organge & red) > Centre row (by piece exchange) > Top & Bottom row (by F2 U F2).

Outside edges `change cube orientation` to yellow & white as U & D:
[1,1] commutator FR'F'R to place OS edges in F2L (I think this is how to say it)
Orientate OS edges in U face by (FB' M F'B) FURU'R'F' (FB' M' F'B) with two OS edges to be flipped at F & R (I think this is a form of commutator, it's what I thought commutators were before, anyway).
3 cycle OS edges on U face with R2 U FB' R2 F'B U2 FB' R2 F'B U R2
Parity alg is now performed directly on U face.

Place & orientate OS corners.
Circle corners with Katja's new commutator alg.
Nice. :D

Cheers,
Burgo.

EDIT: I will elaborate for clarity. Konrad’s original circle corner cycle commutator also works on Venus with Katja's face change (R U’ L’ U R’ U’ L U) [M] y’ (L’ U R U’ L U R’ U’) y [M’] with bandaged as F: URB > FRU > LDB. I will tend to use this because it matches the sequences that I already know.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:20 am 
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Burgo wrote:
Thanks Katja,
This is the missing link for me: to make Venus as one of the easier planets.
Hi Burgo,

I'm glad to hear that it helped! It is all very intuitive once you get the hang of the terminology. This should provide you with enough knowledge to interpret Julian's hints as well.

I reckon your parity fix is similar to mine, it uses some of the same "tricks". But I do feel that the parity is easiest handled when you have "direct parity", like you mentioned. Although, applying my own parity fix, there wouldn't be too many extra moves involved if you chose to solve it by moving it to one of the 1 faces and performing the algo from there.
Burgo wrote:
VENUS METHOD ADJUSTMENT
I like your revised solution :D

If I have the time this weekend, I'll have a look at your Earth outline. I've solved it using my method 3 times now and I feel I'm getting the hang of it and therefore feeling ready to explore other methods :D


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Hi friends,
I’ve been solving Uranus a few times with the reduction method and I loved doing it this way. And I got to thinking I should post a final `difficulty rating`. Difficulty of course depends, as Schuma pointed out, on the method you choose, so I will include the method. I think that it is also more helpful to target the list to people who have not attempted planets before, because they will use it to choose which puzzle they might buy, or start with. So this is advice for which puzzle I would choose to tackle, in order, to someone starting out.

1.0 Rubiks cube
1.2 Supercube
1.2 Jupiter with reduction method. It is not much harder than a supercube, if you have been doing picture cubes or number cubes, give this a crack. You’ll love it.
1.3 Uranus with reduction method. It adds a little twist to Jupiter. These two planets are easily achievable for supercube solvers. They are a good challenge.
1.4 Mercury, orbits are restricted, makes it fairly easy to solve using non-reduction method.
1.5 Venus. Non reduction, orbits are also restricted, adds a difficulty in circle corners that if you try to overcome yourself can be tricky, but the methods are in this thread.
1.7 Earth, my favourite planet to solve, a great introduction to the next level of difficulty. Non reduction
1.7 Neptune, Adds a little twist to Earth. Also try Uranus again with non reduction (for a challenge).
1.7 Mars, If you can achieve Neptune, you can solve Mars.
1.8 Saturn, this adds a final twist that is a little more difficult. Also try Jupiter again with non reduction (for a challenge).

In my opinion, no puzzle collection with a supercube in it is complete without a Jupiter and a Uranus in it.
Cheers, and I hope this adds clarity to the `work in progress` above.
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 ?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Termite wrote:
I think reducing the corners of the saturn, after the edges are placed, works quite good.
That's an interesting idea! I'll try it, when I have time for a next Saturn solve. :)
I tried it last night and it worked out fine; a bit confusing at first but great fun, and it saves having to cycle all those circle corner pieces.
Termite wrote:
All the edges except the four of your top 0-face are scrambled around after reducing, but this doesn't matter, since they are all still correct oriented.
I got a couple of edges flipped, but that probably happened when I suddenly noticed that I had split a couple of edges while reducing the corners, and had to repair them.

Saturn is now my favorite planet and I look forward to trying this method a few more times.

I solved Mars tonight using the 1-faces and a single 0-face to reduce the corners, then solving the the reduced cube using only the 1-faces: first edges, then corners. The setups in the corner reduction stage were very tricky but I fumbled around until I managed it. A really good, fun challenge.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:02 am 
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Hi Julian,
I tried this type of reduction with Saturn once (because of the same post) but I had all the edges placed and that started displacing them, so I just stopped and continued the solve as normal, and forgot about it. I am up for a fun challenge, so I will give it a go too. I also like the idea with Mars, I was actually going to try reduction with Neptune next, it could be possible with both I think. Were you placing the edges first and then reducing the corners, or just making triplets first? I see there is now a method for flipping an edge on Saturn (I presume this means a completed triplet?).
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:41 am 
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I have made a synopsis of my circle corner 3-cycles. For completeness, I have included sequences even for those planets where I use a reduction method for the circle corners.
I think that it makes setups easier, if not 3 faces are involved.
Therefore, I prefer sequences, where only two faces (or even one) are changed.

In six cases I use algorithm S1: (R U’ L’ U R’ U’ L U) y’ (L’ U R U’ L U R’ U’) (similar to an (8,1) commutator, but I prefer a turn of the whole cube (y is a clockwise turn of the whole cube around a vertical axis) and reverse the first 8 moves by a mirrored sequence.

For Venus I had to add an M (WCA notation M means a turn of the middle layer between R and L; same direction as L).
For Saturn I use a (9,1) commutator.
Image

I would like to establish the following rules for publishing further hints:
- Define a precise setup for the 0 and 1 faces.
- Whenever colours are mentioned for a certain Crazy planet, please, follow the standard specification.
Image
I recommend to mod your Crazy planets to the standard colour setup.
This is very easily done by exchanging centre pieces. I have done that yesterday myself and the change is invisible from the outside, in practible terms.

EDIT: I have had the time today to read some older posts:
Burgo wrote:
OK, I will put down my method for the Saturn. I have orange and red as unbandaged. And U and D are bandaged.

...
Burgo.
Interestingly, my original method for Saturn was a bit similar in the sense that I had a certain target pattern for the last layer of edges. And from there I had a specific algorithm to achieve a cross of circle and outer edges on the last layer. My improved method is based on Julian's ideas: (I have a standard colour scheme: white and yellow = 0)
Red (1) is U and my last layer when building the edges. (All other edges are straight forward.)
I make a red cross of circle edges. I flip the outer edges. I permute the circle edges and outer edges with Sune/Antisune algorithms. This is really smooth now. I hope, I'll have the time soon to try a reduction method for the Saturn.

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Last edited by Konrad on Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:31 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
Hi Julian,
I tried this type of reduction with Saturn once (because of the same post) but I had all the edges placed and that started displacing them, so I just stopped and continued the solve as normal, and forgot about it. I am up for a fun challenge, so I will give it a go too. I also like the idea with Mars, I was actually going to try reduction with Neptune next, it could be possible with both I think. Were you placing the edges first and then reducing the corners, or just making triplets first? I see there is now a method for flipping an edge on Saturn (I presume this means a completed triplet?).
Burgo.
I don't know how to conveniently flip whole edges of Saturn; I thought I did earlier, but not in a useful way. I solve the edges of the last (1) face of Venus, Earth, Mars, and Saturn circle/inner pieces first, flipping outer edges if necessary.

I place all the edges of Mars first before reducing the corners. (A couple of times I tried reducing the edges completely before solving them, but I ended up with flipped edges despite trying to avoid them.) Tonight I solved the reduced Mars using blockbuilding for the first two layers, which is much more convenient than edges first.

Konrad: Thanks for posting your corner-cycling algos. I must confess that I have been using only one, a mirror image of your one for Saturn, for all the planets! With your Saturn algo, to give a pure cycle, F has to be a 0 face and R has to be a 1 face, but U and L can be either 0 or 1, as long as they are the same type. With U and L as 0 faces, doing exactly the same algo, pieces 1, 2 & 4 are cycled instead.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve Dayan's Crazy 3x3x3 and Megaminx?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:52 am 
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Hi Konrad,

Thanks for the diagrams of your commutators^^
They are VERY good.

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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