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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:34 pm 
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Now starting project 1.4.6!

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:44 pm 
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Katja wrote:
There's nothing wrong with some friendly competition, right? :D
Nothing wrong! friendly competition is the aim of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:16 pm 
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After 1831 moves I run into a parity problem with two corners swapped. I believe Julian knows what this is about :lol: ? Darn..

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
After 1831 moves I run into a parity problem with two corners swapped. I believe Julian knows what this is about :lol: ? Darn..
1831 is an odd number of total moves. As Julian pointed out, since the scramble is 500 moves the corners stay in an even parity. You need to make sure you stay even.

I haven't worked on 1.4.6 but it may also have a two-orbital parity like the helicopter cube. If you twist two adjacent faces (edit: I mean edges), A and B [A B]x3 you might be changing the parity of two orbitals while maintaining the overall even parity of the corners.

I've been thinking about working on 1.4.6 to see if I can solve it but I first plan on identifying which pieces have distinct orbitals and then pre-solving them dirty and then maintaining their orbital parity through the rest of the solve so that I don't run into any awful parities besides just the corners.

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
After 1831 moves I run into a parity problem with two corners swapped. I believe Julian knows what this is about :lol: ? Darn..


It's a good thing that you have a special experience for the 200th puzzle...

The parity problem is because a single twist is an odd permutation for corners. So you can just twist it once to fix it, and resolve the rest part.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Yes, I read about 1.4.6 a bit, and read that too, that's why I mentioned Julian saying it. At 2782 moves it has been resolved.

_________________
Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:11 pm 
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There...
Attachment:
1.4.6.jpg
1.4.6.jpg [ 187.14 KiB | Viewed 5701 times ]

Puzzle: 1.4.6
Time: 5:07:25 (non-stop)
Moves: 9590
Number: 200
Certificate (just to be sure):
bf1534a5d3430b91ae2e1ecdf40bd926
b33a79a3f20db9467378e917d32c6798
ce3ae51bcb31e618cd3aa7784f7e9d62
3bc497682fd09b6437c89e613de276fd

_________________
Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:58 pm 
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I need some help with GelatinBrain 1.2.3(vertex turning dodecahedron). I would appreciate a genaral strategy and some algorithms for solving the various pieces. Please! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:11 pm 
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77mouser wrote:
I need some help with GelatinBrain 1.2.3(vertex turning dodecahedron). I would appreciate a genaral strategy and some algorithms for solving the various pieces. Please! :)
1.2.3 is a medium difficulty puzzle so if you haven't already solved 1.2.2 I'd recommend that first.

I think the most efficient solution is to solve all of those wide-triangles that are next to the corners first. Then solve corners, centers, and finally the thin triangles.

It is a bit difficult to see how to solve all of the wide triangles first when the corners aren't placed though so I recommend you actually solve:

1) Corners
2) Wide triangles
3) Centers
4) Thin triangles

For the corners, you should be able to place an orient them mostly using intuition. There is a simple [1,1] commutator to cycle three of them similar in construction to how you would cycle the edges on a Pyraminx Crystal. [1,1] routines typically feel like intuition rather than an algorithm.

Here is a screenshot of the corners routine:
Attachment:
1.2.3_corners.png
1.2.3_corners.png [ 106.65 KiB | Viewed 5662 times ]


If you add a setup move before the first twist of the corners routine and then undo it after the first twist, you can cycle the wide-triangles [3,1]:
Attachment:
1.2.3_wide_triangles.png
1.2.3_wide_triangles.png [ 106.9 KiB | Viewed 5662 times ]


The centers can be done with a different [3,1]:
Attachment:
1.2.3_centers.png
1.2.3_centers.png [ 106.84 KiB | Viewed 5662 times ]


And if you add a setup / undo move to the centers routine, you can cycle the thin triangles pure:
Attachment:
1.2.3_thin_triangles.png
1.2.3_thin_triangles.png [ 107.06 KiB | Viewed 5662 times ]


This is the hardest routine so if you are having trouble finding it, here is the GB notation for it:

/* Setup */
CHG',
/* First 3 moves of centers routine */
[ABC', AFB, ABC],
/* Undo setup */
CHG,
/* Second sequence of centers routine */
DCG,
/* Re-do setup */
CHG',
/* Undo first 3 moves of centers routine */
[ABC', AFB', ABC],
/* Undo setup */
CHG,
/* Undo second part of centers routine */
DCG'


If you are having trouble finding the centers routine, it is hiding in the sequence above.

Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:47 pm 
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1.4.6

@Sjoerd: Well done, I see that your solve made it to the rankings.

@Brandon: Apart from the usual left-handed and right-handed thing with some pieces, there are no orbitals to worry about.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:36 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
·The notations for octahedrons and icosahedrons correspond those of cubes and dodecahedrons respectively but faces and vertices interchanged.
Hi gelatinbrain, while creating a solution post for the dual puzzles 1.2.7 and 2.1.15, I have noticed that the dodeca notation and icosa notation do not align. (For example, with 2.1.x puzzles there is a move EAC which cannot work with 1.2.x puzzles because the dodeca A, C & E faces do not all share a corner.) Please can you adjust the icosa notation to match the dodeca notation? Every dodeca puzzle, rotated 36 degrees clockwise from its default position, is equivalent to this:

Attachment:
GB icosa notation.png
GB icosa notation.png [ 18.39 KiB | Viewed 5632 times ]

P.S. Does anyone object to this? If some solvers have already recorded a lot of icosa macros in the current notation, it guess it would be annoying to have to make them again, but ideally I think it would be nice to have consistent notation between the 1.x.x and 2.x.x families.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Julian wrote:
Hi gelatinbrain, while creating a solution post for the dual puzzles 1.2.7 and 2.1.15, I have noticed that the dodeca notation and icosa notation do not align. [...] P.S. Does anyone object to this? If some solvers have already recorded a lot of icosa macros in the current notation, it guess it would be annoying to have to make them again, but ideally I think it would be nice to have consistent notation between the 1.x.x and 2.x.x families.
I support thins change! I have written code to translate between the two and I'd love to do away with it.

Edit: If Gelatinbrain changes the notation on the Icosahedra, you can translate your existing saved macros by transliterating 'ABFIECHJKGDL' to 'ABFEDCIJKGHL'.

For example:
Code:
$ echo '[A1, B1, A3, I4, A1, I1, A2, B4]x3' | tr 'ABFIECHJKGDL' 'ABFEDCIJKGHL'
[A1, B1, A3, E4, A1, E1, A2, B4]x3

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:08 pm 
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Julian wrote:
1.4.6

@Sjoerd: Well done, I see that your solve made it to the rankings.

@Brandon: Apart from the usual left-handed and right-handed thing with some pieces, there are no orbitals to worry about.


Thanks. Today I also solved 1.4.5, now that I have the hang of edge turning dodecahedra.
Indeed the lefthanded-righthanded thing is always a bother, but usually I find orbitals very helpful. Well, if with orbitals you mean like with the helicopter cube everything stays in the same orbit. It kind of surprised me that 1.4.6 and 1.4.5 don't have orbits, since the shallower cut ones definately do.

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
Today I also solved 1.4.5, now that I have the hang of edge turning dodecahedra.
Your score has not yet arrived, as your other recent scores(I added them manually). It's strange since other scores arrive constantly. :?
Julian wrote:
Please can you adjust the icosa notation to match the dodeca notation?
So I did. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Again? That is strange.. My last 2 weren't automatically, but the two before those were. My internet-connection doesn't seem to fall out that much, and I always check my connection before hitting sumbit. It's a good thing I started to save my certificates 8-)

Thanks for uploading them manually!

here's 1.4.5:
ba13b9280898ab31970caf12e619cd32
a7b04f909d623bc4979c2fd19b6437c8
9e6a3dc3768fec115ea2bc486e98dc22
7a85f40bd926b34c7986f20db95d7372

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:38 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Julian wrote:
Please can you adjust the icosa notation to match the dodeca notation?
So I did. 8-)
Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Attachment:
GB 1-2-7,1-2-8,2-1-15,2-1-16.png
GB 1-2-7,1-2-8,2-1-15,2-1-16.png [ 37.83 KiB | Viewed 5499 times ]
Note that with 1.2.7 and 1.2.8, once you start solving corners in different halves, to avoid reaching a single twisted corner you will need to use Stefan's corner orientation check. If you do end up with a single twisted corner, the following algo (a mod of Brandon's 1.2.2 corner fix) twists ADE clockwise: [DCG,JEK,DCG',IJL,EAD,IJL',DCG,JEK',DCG',IJL',EAD,IJL,]x2

Actual algos are shown in invisible ink (more for a clean look than secrecy). * means a slice move. The [1:1] for the 5 pieces and [1,1] for the 3, 6, 8 & 9 pieces are made from the same pair of moves.

1 - [[1,1],1] = [4,1] [FJI',CHG,FJI,CHG'], [DGK], [CHG,FJI',CHG',FJI], [DGK']
2 - [1:1],1*] = [3,1*] [EAC',BFH,EAC],[BFH&2],[EAC',BFH',EAC],[BFH'&2]
3 - [[1,1],1*] = [4,1*] [BFI',DCG,BFI,DCG'], [ACD&2], [DCG,BFI',DCG',BFI], [ACD'&2]
4 - [[1:[1,1]],1*] = [6,1*] [KED',IBF',DCG,IBF,DCG',KED], [DCG&2], [KED',DCG,IBF',DCG',IBF,KED], [DCG'&2]
5 - [[1:1],1*] = [3,1*] [BFI',DCG,BFI], [DCG&2], [BFI',DCG',BFI], [DCG'&2]
6 - [[1:[1,1]],1] = [6,1] [CHG,BFI',DCG,BFI,DCG',CHG'], [BIH], [CHG,DCG,BFI',DCG',BFI,CHG'], [BIH']
7 - [[1:[1,1]],1*] = [6,1*] [ADE,EJF,DCG,EJF',DCG',ADE'], [DCG&2], [ADE,DCG,EJF,DCG',EJF',ADE'], [DCG'&2]
8 - [[1:[1,1]],1] = [6,1] [EDK',BFI',DCG,BFI,DCG',EDK], [IJL], [EDK',DCG,BFI',DCG',BFI,EDK], [IJL']
9 - [[2:[1,1]],1] = [8,1] [ABC',EDK',BFI',DCG,BFI,DCG',EDK,ABC], [IJL], [ABC',EDK',DCG,BFI',DCG',BFI,EDK,ABC], [IJL']


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
Now starting project 1.4.6!
Congratulations! :D I can't wait until I have enough time to solve it. Now that I've stopped using the algorithm bar solving takes a lot longer. I felt like I cheated myself from experiencing the real part of solving puzzles when I used it.
Stefan Schwalbe wrote:
friendly competition is the aim of the game.
I agree! :D

Julian; I'm very impressed with your 1.2.7, 1.2.8, 2.1.15 & 2.1.16 outline. Once I'm not jet lagged as crazy anymore I'll give a real respond and possibly share my order of solving as a comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:33 pm 
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I just finished solving 3.1.29, it was a lot of fun. I did 3.1.28 last week, which was a little easier, but 3.1.29 isn't a very difficult puzzle either.

Solution:

1. Solve 3x3x3 pieces.
2. Solve the little center triangles, intuitively.
3. Solve circle-edge pieces, with 3-cycle algo.
4. Solve circle-corner pieces with another 3-cycle algo. I used slice moves in this step as setup moves for the 3-cycle.

I also solved a few other puzzles this week, and I actually got 2nd best on 3.1.21 with 6:34, but I don't think I'll ever beat Michael's 2:41...

EDIT: I got first place on 3.1.29.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:16 pm 
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Ah, there we go.... I solved 3.1.30.

Attachment:
GB 3.1.30 solved.jpg
GB 3.1.30 solved.jpg [ 242.12 KiB | Viewed 5385 times ]


I had a few moments when my brain was hurting, but overall not an extremely difficult puzzle.

My solution, FAR from optimal:

1. Solve centers intuitively
2. Solve 4x4x4 pieces(to check for parity, pair edges too of course. I ran into the 2 switched dedges parity. I couldn't think of any way
to fix the parity without messing up the little triangle pairs, so that's why I did the parity check as step two. I came up
with a rather long algorithm to switch two dedges on opposite sides without disturbing centers(GB notation, highlight to view:
[ U'2&2,R'4,U2&2,R2&2,U'4,R'2&2,U'4,R2&2,U2,R2&2,U2,U2&2,R2&2,U2,U2&2,U'4,R2&2,U'4,R'2&2,R'4,U'2&2,R'4,U2&2,U2, ]
3. Pair up the little triangle pieces without disturbing the 4x4x4 edges. Use [ U'&2,F',U'4,F,U&2, ] or something similar.
4. Re-solve 4x4x4 corners and edges(edges should still be paired, so just solve like a 3x3x3)
5. Solve all the paired center triangles, intuitively.
6. Solve circle edge pieces using algorithm.

Like I said, far from optimal, but I'm glad I solved it.

EDIT: I also got first place on 3.1.30. But honestly, I don't feel it's completely fair. I used the algorithm bar, which makes the puzzle slightly easier. Executing algorithms manually, or solving everything intuitively, takes more concentration and spatial reasoning.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Hi Luke. Congrats on your 3.1.29 and 3.1.30 time records. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Yesterday I realized that some of those circle cubes (and other weird face-turning cubes) that seemed too annoying before were actually not all that bad. After solving 3 of them 1 didn't make it to the rankings, 3.1.36:

daaf795fcebe266ee3ba477a85f40bd9
26c54c7986f20db946878ce816d32c67
98c531e41ade34e619c632ae58bdb09f
623bc497682fd09b6437c89e613dc256

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:52 am 
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1.1.17

Phew, just finished it. Actually it's not the hardest puzzle I've solved and finding the algorithms was rather easy, but it is the most visually confusing puzzle I've ever solved! I paired the edges first (not randomly, but I solved them in their correct spots) and I've never had a harder time finding the right pieces. My eyes actually started to hurt after a while :lol: After I got the edges done I didn't have parity, and from there on the puzzle was a lot easier!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:54 am 
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And those were all but one circle-FTO's. 4.1.13 is the onl one I can't figure out yet, but all the 3-layered ones are done. When I first saw them I was scared of the circle going over the edge, but the extra pieces this creates doesn't make th puzzle harder at all.
Puzzles solved in the last few days: 1.3.13, 3.1.15, 3.1.24, 3.1.36, 3.3.20, 3.4.21, 4.1.12, 4.1.14, 4.1.15, 4.1.16 and 4.3.6. None of these were extremely difficult, most didn't even take longer than 30 minutes, but they were all nice experiences and a good addition to my numer-of-puzzles-solved count.

My internet connection was out when I submitted 1.3.13, and for some reason I got two certificates, so here they are:
ef520492b3231f8586f9bd21b34c7986
f2bbb942738ce916d3d86799ce31e51a
cb3fe618cd24a74e4f9c9d553b02976a
2fd09b6437c89e613dc27689ec115e35


and

d6e561da49b32979f40069be46738ce9
16652c6398ce31e51a3f34e719cd32a7
5844b09c622dc4816803d0aa6409c89e
613dc27689ec135ea1bc436e91de23ee

_________________
Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this - but I don't think it deserves it's own thread - You see, I feel like I'm missing out on all the Gelatin Brain fun because of something that bugs me about it.

Is there any way when working on a puzzle, and you left click drag outside the puzzle to rotate it around - to keep the orientation where it is, instead of it snapping back to a fixed position? More like how the gabbasoft cubes rotate around? I realize of course this might affect the game inputs...

It may sound like a silly request, but for some reason, I have a hard time visually dealing with the mirror image / opposite side... I'm slowly getting used to it, but it sure would make me happy if it wouldn't snap back to a fixed vantage point... Just my two cents - take it or leave it :)

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:03 pm 
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It is impossible to not let it snap back. And I'm very sure that that's never going to change :P . It probably gets some getting used to, and when you play with gabbasoft after a couple of GB applets, you will be surprised the gabbasoft ones don't snap back! The only puzzles where this 'snapping' bothers me a little is on the tetrahedra, but anyone can get used to everything.

And with the 2 screens: I always just use the left one to click. I may look at the right one occasionally if I want to set up some pieces correctly and one should be in the back, but otherwise I just ignore it.

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Hi jabeck, I think this is the right place place to ask that as it does have to do with solving. I think there are some technical issues with detecting what vertex/face/edge is being clicked on when you allow free rotation. The spots to click on can shrink to 0 area in certain views and because of floating point rounding errors you can get strange overlaps and such. It's doable but you can't just naively compute the boundaries without strange effects.

But on a personal level, at first the snapping into position annoyed me but after about 10 puzzle solves I think it is one of the greatest features of Geltinbrain's program. The Tetrahedra and Octahedra views are a bit limiting but you get used to them.

I knew about Geltinbrain's page for months before I even attempted a single solve because I kept telling myself that I'm no good at simulated puzzles. I remember the first time I solved a Rubik's cube on a computer I thought the clicking and dragging was a miserable experience and I told myself I'd never do it again.

It is hard to adapt the muscle memory you likely have for solving the Rubik's cube into clicking on a computer but after some practice it turns out to be very easy. As for trying to track what is displayed on both sides of the applet, I say at first just don't. Only pay attention to the left or right side and drag the puzzle around to see the other side. Eventually the other side can be used a little bit but don't try to right away.

I say solve 10-20 puzzles and if you still hate the view snapping then re-post. I think you'll come to really appreciate the rigid views. It makes following what you're doing so much easier in the long-run.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:23 pm 
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jabeck wrote:
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this - but I don't think it deserves it's own thread - You see, I feel like I'm missing out on all the Gelatin Brain fun because of something that bugs me about it.

Is there any way when working on a puzzle, and you left click drag outside the puzzle to rotate it around - to keep the orientation where it is, instead of it snapping back to a fixed position? More like how the gabbasoft cubes rotate around? I realize of course this might affect the game inputs...

It may sound like a silly request, but for some reason, I have a hard time visually dealing with the mirror image / opposite side... I'm slowly getting used to it, but it sure would make me happy if it wouldn't snap back to a fixed vantage point... Just my two cents - take it or leave it :)

Thanks.


I don't think there is a way to view the puzzle from an arbitrary orientation. Snapping is mandatory. Note that GB allows one to use texts such as F, U, R, etc to make turns (macro). If you can leave the puzzle at an arbitrary orientation, the symbols F, U, R are not well defined any more. In order to view a puzzle from arbitrary orientation and allow macros, one has to first specify references (what is front, what is up, what is right), which is pretty annoying. I actually prefer snapping.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Thanks for the quick replies - I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and get used to it. Good advice about only looking at one side at first- I noticed that's what I was doing anyway for the most part. Also, I've only been using it with tetrahedra so far any way, so maybe I just need to try out some other shapes too and get used to it. I don't doubt that it becomes an efficient way to look at it eventually...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:27 am 
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After solving 3.6.6, I cannot come up with a puzzle I can understand and solve quickly, so I am ending my 4-day solving rush, with 21 puzzles solved. Thank god for vacations! Unless I get really bored tonight I might have a go at 2.1.2, but I probably won't solve again for a couple of weeks :?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:35 pm 
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I did a 1.1.16 and 1.1.4 solve today. 1.1.16 is really easy, solves like a gigaminx, without corners and with hidden inner edge pieces. The latter can cause a nice parity case, where 2 dedges in the last layer are swapped, which can be solved intuitively.

1.1.4 is more challenging. I found a 3-cycle for the startips, and needed to do a load of setup moves to solve them. But first, the corners and edges, of course, are solved like a pyraminx crystal. Easy.

If I have some time I'll give 1.1.48, 1.1.49 and 1.1.45 a solve tonight. They shouldn't be too difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:59 pm 
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Yesterday Gelatinbrain added 2.1.{17,18,19} which morph shape to allow modulo-6 twists rather than modulo-3 :D .

Also, Elwyn, I've been trying to beat your 5.1.10 move count record of 85 but that score is AMAZING. I've been working on various techniques for many hours this weekend and my best score is still only 101. I have some ideas on places I can save though so maybe it's reachable.

Finally, Luke, you're doing great. I hope we see your name on the leader board soon!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:50 pm 
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So I am having difficulties. I have never really been able to play with Gelatin Brain with either my personal or school computer. My Java is up to date, and I have pretty good internet through the university. So the only thing I can think of is that my computers just don't have the capabilities to run it? Even though I can run solidworks just fine. Any ideas? Any one know what the requirements even are?

It's nice to be able to look at the puzzles, but I likes to play with them too :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Muffet wrote:
So I am having difficulties. I have never really been able to play with Gelatin Brain with either my personal or school computer. My Java is up to date, and I have pretty good internet through the university. So the only thing I can think of is that my computers just don't have the capabilities to run it? Even though I can run solidworks just fine. Any ideas? Any one know what the requirements even are?

It's nice to be able to look at the puzzles, but I likes to play with them too :mrgreen:
Hi Muffet, basically any computer on any Internet connection can use Gelatinbrain's applet/program.

There is a thread for help getting it working called Gelatin Brain's Applet Problem.

The short answer is that for an unknown reason the Java sand-boxing security policy breaks the applet on some system. See this post for a list of tests and checks. Most likely all you need to do is change the setting describe in this post. If you read the whole thread and you can't get it working post your issue in the thread and I'm sure Gelatinbrain will be able to help you.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:55 pm 
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Thanks for the quick reply, I checked the list (pretty simple, browser check, java check) but the link to check if java is working properly shows that something isn't right. unless the gears applet is not working anymore(the check that Gelatin Brain posted no longer existed).

So i tried changing the security to the way it is in the fix link. However it still wont work for me.

I have never had anything where it said an error had occurred, or not found, but for some reason it just never loads. The Java loading screen just sits there doing nothing.

I thought maybe it had something to do with my browser, so I tried it on Chrome, Firefox and IE and I get the same result for all of them.

This is the same for both of my computers, however it works just fine on my roommates. I really don't know what to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:08 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Yesterday Gelatinbrain added 2.1.{17,18,19} which morph shape to allow modulo-6 twists rather than modulo-3 :D .

Also, Elwyn, I've been trying to beat your 5.1.10 move count record of 85 but that score is AMAZING. I've been working on various techniques for many hours this weekend and my best score is still only 101. I have some ideas on places I can save though so maybe it's reachable.

Finally, Luke, you're doing great. I hope we see your name on the leader board soon!


Already there, look for "Luke van der Laan", that's me ;)

I also solved 1.1.48, which was pretty easy, but I did get a terrible time and move count. The solution is pretty straightforward, but confusing at the same time. I solved the whole puzzle intuitively.

I also gave 1.1.49 a try, but man... that is one confusing puzzle. The cuts of the puzzle are just so... weird. But anyway, I sort of gave up after half an hour. I solved the whole thing except for four small center pieces. But I'll try again today or tomorrow. Pretty sure I can beat this one!


EDIT: I solved 1.1.49. :D But only after finding a way to 3-cycle the weird center pieces on a single face, as sort of a setup for solving the last few small center pieces. I really underestimated this one, pretty challenging. But alot of fun nonetheless. My move count was 2005, not too optimal, I'm afraid. I'm better with cubic puzzles I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:15 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Yesterday Gelatinbrain added 2.1.{17,18,19} which morph shape to allow modulo-6 twists rather than modulo-3 :D .


These puzzles are pretty nice. The pieces can actually be solved intuitively. I wasted a lot of steps only because I was reluctant to think.

There is a common bug in the three puzzles. The algorithm bar is not working correctly. If I keep turning ABC, the algorithm bar shows that what I do is:

ABC once = ABC,
ABC twice = ABC' (wrong),
ABC three times= ABC (wrong),
ABC four times= ABC (wrong),
ABC five times= ABC (wrong),
ABC six times= nothing (right).

Input = ABC2 should be ABC twice, but the applet is not turning it correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:54 pm 
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I notice that GB has added four new puzzles: 1.8.1, 1.8.2, 2.1.20, and 2.1.21. Now the total number of GB puzzles exceeds 400. The two new dodecahedra are analogous to 3.1.35. The two new icosahedra seems to be similar to 2.1.18, although I haven't figured which stickers belong to a "piece". I also noticed that the bug of 2.1.18 has been fixed. Thanks a lot, gelatinbrain! I can't wait till the weekend comes.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:09 am 
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schuma wrote:
I notice that GB has added four new puzzles: 1.8.1, 1.8.2, 2.1.20, and 2.1.21. Now the total number of GB puzzles exceeds 400. The two new dodecahedra are analogous to 3.1.35. The two new icosahedra seems to be similar to 2.1.18, although I haven't figured which stickers belong to a "piece". I also noticed that the bug of 2.1.18 has been fixed. Thanks a lot, gelatinbrain! I can't wait till the weekend comes.


would you mind posting pictures of 1.8.1 and 1.8.2 ?
I can't see them. When I click on them it shows an error. I can see and play most other puzzles though. I saw you have 17.779 moves on 1.8.1 and I am to curious what it is. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:19 pm 
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I just took some screenshots of 1.8.1 and 1.8.2, showing the solved states, first layer turning and second layer turning. For unknown reasons, I cannot upload images in the forum, so I put them here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/mananself/GelatinBrain#

The first layer turning is with respect to the light blue face (the blue face in the left window). The second layer turning is with respect to the light blue face, or the dark blue face. Opposite faces share the same second layer.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:59 pm 
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schuma wrote:
I just took some screenshots of 1.8.1 and 1.8.2, showing the solved states, first layer turning and second layer turning. For unknown reasons, I cannot upload images in the forum, so I put them here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/mananself/GelatinBrain#

The first layer turning is with respect to the light blue face (the blue face in the left window). The second layer turning is with respect to the light blue face, or the dark blue face. Opposite faces share the same second layer.



Wow. Those look mad. But actually they both don't look as mad as 1.4.6 and still it took you only 8500 moves to solve that one. Now the question remains why I can't open or even see the images of them in the highscore list. :?


Btw I have finally figured out how to solve the circle pyraminx crystal 1.1.24. I can't be really proud though. I knew that the "corners" of the inner circle are the hidden megaminx edges seen from the side. Not to easy to solve them. However I just can't figure out what the edgeparts of the inner circles are. They have no relation to the centers or corners of the hidden megaminx. So I left them for last and figured out one of those comultators I guess. Where you do some moves (in this case cycling 3 pyraminx crystal edges) and than isolate a piece.
End of story: As soon as I had found one that cycles 3 little circle pieces I just copy pasted all the time. after 2800 moves or so I was done. I know it's not the Jedi way but I don't like circle puzzles to much anyway so I don't care for a better solution. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:06 pm 
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alaskajoe wrote:
Wow. Those look mad. But actually they both don't look as mad as 1.4.6 and still it took you only 8500 moves to solve that one. Now the question remains why I can't open or even see the images of them in the highscore list. :?


So forget about the ranking page. I cannot open 1.8.1 from that page either. You can try to open any other puzzle, and use the File menu of the applet, in the left top corner to find 1.8.1.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:43 pm 
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New puzzles!

3.12.1, 3.12.2, and 3.12.3.

There are some small planetary circles that rotate when the whole layer rotates.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:45 pm 
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schuma wrote:
New puzzles!

3.12.1, 3.12.2, and 3.12.3.

There are some small planetary circles that rotate when the whole layer rotates.


Lol. tried them out. Impossible. Really. No way to fix these circles when they are scrambled. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:07 pm 
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alaskajoe wrote:
schuma wrote:
New puzzles!

3.12.1, 3.12.2, and 3.12.3.

There are some small planetary circles that rotate when the whole layer rotates.


Lol. tried them out. Impossible. Really. No way to fix these circles when they are scrambled. :lol:
Last night I worked on 3.12.1. I found that if you commutate Sune you can get an almost pure routine. If you commutate that it gets cleaner, and if you commutate that it is pure.

That is [[[Sune, 1], 1], 1]. It's unfortunately it's 82 moves.

I started solving using macros and I got to about 75% solved at ~2600 moves before deciding I didn't want to solve it that way. I'm sure there is a way to isolate those pieces in far fewer than 40 moves. I'll probably end up macro solving it but I don't want to do it in 3000+ moves.

The puzzle has this really neat property that if you do R and L', on a regular 2x2x2 this would be equivalent to a re-orientation but on 3.12.1 it also does a 4 cycle for each of the 4 circles on each of the R and L sides. I was using this 2-move "re-orientation" trick as a setup move for my pure circle-wedge 3-cycle.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:08 pm 
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As always, thanks for continuing to think up great new puzzles, gelatinbrain!

I don't have much time for online puzzling at the moment but I had to give 3.12.1 a try.

The small pieces can be cycled pure with a [2: [3,1], 1] = [12,1] commutator: [B D' : [R' D R, U], L]

Hints: The [3,1] cycles 3 corners of a 2x2x2. With 3.12.1, there are side effects leaving some swapped circles on the 5 corners that aren't part of the cycle. The 2 setup moves push the cubies around so that only one swapped circle is left in an otherwise unchanged half of the puzzle.

This algo works with 3.12.2 too, cycling different pieces, but it does not work with 3.12.3.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:36 am 
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Before I can solve 3.12.3, GB added the order-3 and order-4 versions: 3.12.4 and .5. Gelatinbrain, thank you for your invention!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:49 pm 
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3.12.3 (all 8 complete circles spin with each move)

Very tricky! The circle pieces are tied together in pairs. The best I can do so far for a pure algo is [1 : [Sune, 1], 1], which with a move overlap is [17,1].

3.12.4 (3x3x3 version of 3.12.1)

The circle pieces cycle pure with a commutator of the form [1: [[face', slice], 1], 1] = [1: [4,1], 1] = [12,1].

3.12.5 (4x4x4 version of 3.12.1)

The circle pieces cycle pure with a commutator of the form [[[face', slice], 1], 1] = [[4,1], 1] = [10,1].


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:52 pm 
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3.12.3

In my previous post I mentioned that the circle pieces are tied together in pairs. If we want we can reduce from 48 pairs to 24 sets of 4, and then cycle those sets of 4. The heart of the reduction algo is [R' D R, U]. If we call this commutator C then the pieces can be grouped using an algo of form [3 : C, 1], which with a move overlap is [13,1]; and the sets of 4 can be cycled using Sune commutated: [R U R' U R U2 R', D] = [7,1]. Reduction algo: [ [R' U2 R2] : [R' D R, U], B]

An example of what the puzzle might look like after the reduction stage is shown below:
Attachment:
GB 3-12-3 paired circle pieces.png
GB 3-12-3 paired circle pieces.png [ 20.56 KiB | Viewed 4542 times ]
Some sets are marked with pairs of purple, black, light blue, and light green lines. Note that pairs of stickers are aligned all in the same direction on 4 faces, but in alternating directions on 2 faces (red and orange in this case). It's necessary to be aware of this, and to choose one of the 6 possible orientations/configurations and stick to it when reducing. Any setups can be used with either stage, but the setups must either be undone completely, or at least leave the puzzle with no broken pairs, before moving on to the next cycle.

I'll be solving 3.12.3 by cycling the circle piece pairs pure [17,1] as described in my previous post, but when I update my list of algo lengths this puzzle will be in a category of x = 13, for the above reduction method.


Last edited by Julian on Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:21 am 
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Pure Big Chop/1.4.3 Algorithm

I finally did it! I finally found a pure 3-cycle for the Big Chop. I feel like this is the end of a long and hard marathon. This is the algorithm I've spent the most time finding and it is by far the hardest to find yet. Before I share the algo itself I'd like to mention that to actually find it I had to test several combinations of moves which I thought would eventually lead to a pure 3-cycle. I spent about 2 hours testing and got as far as 9 attempts before I came up with this:

BC, AB, BC, CH, AE, CH, AE, CH, AE, BC, AB, BC,
LJ,
BC, AB, BC, CH, AE, CH, AE, CH, AE, BC, AB, BC,
LJ,

It is a [12,1], so it's not as short as Julian's [10,1] posted earlier in this thread. Sadly it also cycles two pieces of the same color (from a solved state), which makes set-ups a bit harder and longer. But I'm more than happy with it the way it is and I will probably not bother looking for a shorter and more efficient algorithm until after I solve it with this one. As far as the actual solving goes; I'm very busy these days and deliberately restrict myself to only solving on weekends, though I might make an exception for this :D


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