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 Post subject: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:18 pm 
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I am sure a solution is to be found in the gelatins thread, but I dont want to go through 50 pages to find it.
also, I want a solution based on intuitively solving the first tho layers, and then solving the last layer with algs.
If anybody wants to help me finding algs for this solution I would really appreicate it.
Else I am just going to update this thread, when (if!!)I find the algorithms.

Other solution outlines are welcome too.

Please submit algs for:

"Fto solve, then corners" that means corners only-algs.

"Reduction to offset skewb"

"Layer by layer"

Thank you! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:22 pm 
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*bump* I need a bit of help here, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:48 pm 
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NType3 wrote:
*bump* I need a bit of help here, too.
My solution outline:
1. Solve the normal Skewb pieces, 8 corners and 6 centres
2. Solve the edges
3. Solve the faces around the centres
For steps 2 and 3 I use two (3,1) commutators which do pure 3-cycles of the respective pieces.
I'm not sure if a layer by layer approach is a natural way to solve this puzzle.
The reduction method had been described by a Gelatinbrain solver and it sounds complex and not intuitive at all.
Reduction is very natural on a Dino Skewb or Compy Skewb, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Please post your algs Konrad! We would appreciate it :)
Those you once gave me for Dinoskewb is long forgotten and also deleted from my inbox.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Sigurd wrote:
Please post your algs Konrad! We would appreciate it :)
Those you once gave me for Dinoskewb is long forgotten and also deleted from my inbox.
You are welcome :)
Notation (as in Gelatinbrain):
Image
e.g. UFR (or URF) is a vertex move turning the corner UFR clockwise; URF&2 is a clockwise turn of the inner layer under the vertex URF

8 move sequence for the Master Skewb edges:
FDL'&2,URF,FDL&2,URF&2,FDL'&2,URF',FDL&2,URF'&2,

Result on a solved cube:
Image

8 move sequence for the Master Skewb faces:
LUF'&2,BRU',LUF,BRU,LUF&2,BRU',LUF',BRU

Image

EDIT: As Brandon has posted his sequences plainly visible, I've removed the "hidden spoiler" stuff. :)

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Last edited by Konrad on Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Looks like Konrad beat me to the post. I will send my response anyways because our routines aren't identical even though they use the same principles.

Sigurd wrote:
Please post your algs Konrad! We would appreciate it :)
Those you once gave me for Dinoskewb is long forgotten and also deleted from my inbox.
I agree with Konrad that a layered approach isn't a very natural way to solve this puzzle.

For edges:
Adapting the (1,3) cycle many people use as a 3-cycle on the Rubik's cube or to cycle edge wings on NxNxN cubes yields this:
URF&2, [BRU', URF, BRU], URF'&2, [BRU', URF', BRU]. It isn't pure but it doesn't need to be.

If you need something pure, you can truncate a (1,1) of slice moves and commutate it with a vertex twist:
[LUF&2, BRU'&2, LUF'&2], FDL, [LUF&2, BRU&2, LUF'&2], FDL'.

Or if you prefer the Rubik's style routine, here is a modification that is pure:
[URF&2, BRU', URF'&2], BRU'&2, [URF&2, BRU, URF'&2], BRU&2


For X centers:
The most natural routine is commutating a (1,1) of face moves with a slice. You can truncate it to (3,1):
[BRU', LUF, BRU], LUF'&2, [BRU', LUF', BRU], LUF&2

Here is a modification to that routine that spreads the cycled pieces better and makes setup moves easier:
[BRU, LUF, BRU'], LUF&2, [BRU, LUF', BRU'], LUF'&2

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:04 am 
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Thank you for your algorithms! However its a little hard for me to follow them, but I will ventually find out how :)

If you feel like it, a video would just be really helpful. I think that will make me understand the alg as I look at it as well.

I have a question for you.

What approach would you recommend for speed? My initial thought was a layered method, but you seem to disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:30 am 
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Please help:
I start to solve in this order:
1- Solve edges like dino cube
2- Solve center and faces the same way in a rex cube
Everything was ok, but I don´t figure out how to solve the corners!!!
Is there any alg. for these?
I need to change the corners positions without mess up the other parts.
Any help?


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:25 pm 
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Sigurd wrote:
Thank you for your algorithms! However its a little hard for me to follow them, but I will ventually find out how :)
Yeah the vertex twisting notation of XYZ for each twist is hard to follow. This is why I didn't mask the routines like Konrad, nobody is going to accidentally look at them and understand what the heck is going on. The syntax is ready to be copy and pasted into Gelatinbrain's applet. Once you apply the routine you can step through the sequence with the undo button. Don't worry about memorizing the routine "backwards", it works just as well as forward.

In fact, for a commutator of the form (X, Y) which is X Y X' Y', applying the inverse of the routine is equivalent to swapping X and Y: (Y, X) or Y X Y' X'. I find swapping the X and Y part easier to think about than trying to apply the reverse-sequence of moves. The end result is the same sequence though.

Sigurd wrote:
If you feel like it, a video would just be really helpful. I think that will make me understand the alg as I look at it as well.
I don't (yet) own a physical Master Skewb. I also don't own any video recording equipment. I think playing with the sequences in Gelatinbrain's applet is the easiest thing to do.

Sigurd wrote:
I have a question for you.

What approach would you recommend for speed? My initial thought was a layered method, but you seem to disagree.
I think the trouble with "layer by layer" is defining what a layer is on the Master Skewb. Is a layer the 4 corners, edges, and X centers around a Skewb center? Or is it the 3 edges, X centers, and Skewb centers about a corner?

I haven't thought very hard about what the fastest or most efficient method is but I'd say the easiest for most people is likely to be first solving the Skewb (corners + skewb centers) and then cycle the edges and X centers.

I'm going to re-visit my Master Skewb solve on Gelatinbrain so if I come up with a method I think will be fast I'll post it here.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Again, thank you for your work!

I will try and look at gelatins, like you said. But if somebody out there who owns a Master Skewb and knows some of these algs, I would still appreciate videos.

A layered solution (if you ask me) would be solving one slice at a time. That means starting from one corner, and optimally solve a "cross" of three pieces, then inserting pairs of some sort like F2L. And the some LL algs.

I think, without any actual knowledge, that this would be the fastest solution. But I might be wrong. It depends on how many algs you would need (optimally Full LL), and how hard the cases would be to recognize.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:26 pm 
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Sigurd wrote:
Again, thank you for your work!

I will try and look at gelatins, like you said. But if somebody out there who owns a Master Skewb and knows some of these algs, I would still appreciate videos.
Gelatinbrain is certainly a good idea to study those algorithms. I do not own a good video camera. I could make a series of pictures, though. My two algorithms consist of 8 moves each. I can show you a picture after each of those moves. I'm busy today, but if you think it is worth my effort, I will do it tomorrow.
Sigurd wrote:
A layered solution (if you ask me) would be solving one slice at a time. That means starting from one corner, and optimally solve a "cross" of three pieces, then inserting pairs of some sort like F2L. And the some LL algs.
I do not believe that there is an easy layered approach. But I would be intersted, if you come up with one. I do not know anybody who tries it this way.
Sigurd wrote:
I think, without any actual knowledge, that this would be the fastest solution. But I might be wrong. It depends on how many algs you would need (optimally Full LL), and how hard the cases would be to recognize.
Who has an idea, if a layered approach makes sense? I'll certainly not try to find one. Who is solving an FTO in layers?

EDIT:If you mess up an algorithm in Gelatinbrain, you just hid the "Initialize" button. :) That's a big advantage for learning a new algorithm. If you mess up an algorithm on the physical Master Skewb, it is scrambled and things are much harder to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:17 pm 
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Sigurd wrote:
Please submit algs for:

"Fto solve, then corners" that means corners only-algs.
This is my favorite method to solve the Master Skewb. There is an important extra short step though. After you have solved the edges like a Dino Skewb, check the corners. With each group of 4 non-adjacent corners, there are three possible situations: all in their correct positions; need a double swap; 1 correct and 3 need cycling. Only the last situation is a problem. If this happens, make a move to twist the 3 other corners into their correct positions, then re-solve the Dino Cube edges using commutators and setups. Here are the algos for this:

If you need to twist F clockwise to fix the corners, do: F L' F L F L' F L
If you need to twist F counter-clockwise to fix the corners, do: F' R F' R' F' R F' R'
Attachment:
Master Skewb corner fix.png
Master Skewb corner fix.png [ 9.68 KiB | Viewed 7372 times ]

Then solve the centers with quick and easy 4-move sequences. Then solve the outer centers using commutators already posted by Konrad and Brandon. Finally solve the corners pure. Here are algos to solve the corners of each orbital separately:

Attachment:
Master Skewb pure corner algos.png
Master Skewb pure corner algos.png [ 54.49 KiB | Viewed 7669 times ]

The corners will either be correctly permuted or will need a double pair swap. To swap the corners as shown at the top right:
(L' R L R', B)
In full: (L' R L R') B (R L' R' L) B'

To twist 2 corners as shown at the bottom left is almost the same algo as above:
(L' R L R', B and rotate the puzzle counter-clockwise around the B corner)
In full, without rotations: (L' R L R') B (L D' L' D) B'

To twist 3 corners as shown at the bottom right:
(R' L R' L' R' z2) *2
z2 means rotate 180 degrees around the green face in the diagram. In full, without rotations: (R' L R' L' R') (B' D B' D' B')

I think this method is the most suitable for speed-solving, but I am not a speed-solver so I could be wrong.

Sigurd wrote:
"Reduction to offset skewb"
Start by blockbuilding the 6 pieces around a corner intuitively: first move an outer center next to the corner, then pair up another outer center and the edge that will make a group of 4 pieces all touching each other, then make a group of edge + outer center + edge somewhere else on the cube, line it up, and roll it in. This gets harder to do with the other 3 "big" non-adjacent offset Skewb corners, each made up of 7 little pieces, and there aren't really algos for it. Kind of a cross between solving the centers of higher cubes and F2L, and practice. Solving the Skewb centers can be done with the outer center commutators Konrad and Brandon have posted. If you feel adventurous, you can figure out how to shorten the (3,1) algos to 5-move sequences, where you don't care about the Skewb pieces moving around. Then solve the offset Skewb turning only the 4 non-adjacent big corners.

Sigurd wrote:
"Layer by layer"
Start the same way as reduction, by building a big corner. Then use Konrad's and Brandon's algos to match the outer centers with the same colored centers, and roll in the [outer center + center + outer center] rectangles next to the solved group. Then use my corner algos to finish the first layer. You can solve the middle/slice layer with Konrad's and Brandon's algos again. For the final layer, roll the centers into their correct positions, then solve the edges, then the outer centers, and finish by orienting the last 3 corners.

But solving layer by layer seems very inefficient to me. Rather like one can solve a 4x4x4 layer by layer, and it might be fun and some people prefer to solve it that way, but it is not a fast method.


Edit: Changed the first part of the corners first method, because "freeform" Dino Cube solving can run into the corner problem regardless of what you check at the very beginning.


Last edited by Julian on Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:29 am 
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Thanks Julian! I've tried your first method. Nice :D :D
It would be interesting who of the Gelatinbrain experts uses which method. I've looked up the statistics

Image
That's a nice move count you have there, Julian :D :D :D

For those who are not so advanced regarding the Master Skewb, I've written a little description of my two move sequences.

First my notation (Probably it is a bit more intuitive than the Gelatinbrain notation. As I need one more vertex, I have added a vertex move F of the corner lookong to you to a Julian'sm notation. Inner layer moves are necessary as well.):
Image

Edges pure 3 Cycle: [r F r'] f [r F' r '] f'
(Depending on the chosen method, you'll need it or not.)
This is a (3,1) commutator and Julian would write it as (r F r', f). Brandon has explained commutators above.
In this case X = [r F r'] and Y = f
If you want to understand the logic behind,the 8 moves, just make the first 3 moves and study the limited influence to the r-layer and what the next f move does to the f layer.
Then the first 3 moves are inversed, and the f' reverses the Y move.

My picture sequence starts with the solved cube. Each move is indicated by an arrow and the move letter. The result is shown in the following picture.
For each of the 8 moves there is a single picture (created by the Gelatinbrain applet, but the back view is removed. The result only is shown from front and back).
As the colour scheme is identical to your Master Skewb, you should easily see what's going on:

[r F r'] f [r F' r '] f'
Image

The faces (= X-centres = outer centres) 3 Cycle l' [R' L R] l [R' L' R]

Image

You'll need to mirror and inverse both algorithms.
After all, you'll need setup moves very often and it is easy to get confused and doing the inverse setups wrongly. :lol:
Good luck :)

BTW, let me know if this helped anybody. I hope my effort was not useless.

EDIT: I have changed my notation (hopefully I have made it more consistent and better fitting to Julian's notation) and pictures above - hopefully everything as improved a bit :)

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Last edited by Konrad on Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:03 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:52 pm 
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Thank you, Konrad!
I could solve my Master Skewb finally. :D
And I could solve my Rex Cube too. X-D

Then, I'll try to make "Ultimate type Master Skewb". LOL!

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:39 pm 
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Hey all,

I seem to keep running up with the same problem each time I try to solve the cube.

Method:
1. Permuting corners and placing in an edge
2. filling in all the edges like a dino cube (edges are not permuted anymore)
3. Placing the centers to check for parity
4. filling in the center crosses

Once I get back to the corners, I have one of the 4 positions solved already. That means that the two corner switching alg doesn't work when 3 are out in the wrong places, and 1 is in the right location.

Can anyone tell me what I might be doing wrong? Or is there an alg. that rotates only 3 corners?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:44 am 
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Knite wrote:
Can anyone tell me what I might be doing wrong? Or is there an alg. that rotates only 3 corners?

Thanks
You need to check the corners at the end of the Dino Cube stage. As you've seen, double corner swaps are okay but 1 corner correct in an orbital is a problem. If this happens, make a move to twist the 3 other corners into their correct positions, then re-solve the Dino Cube edges using commutators and setups. Here are the algos for this:

If you need to twist F clockwise to fix the corners, do: F L' F L F L' F L
If you need to twist F counter-clockwise to fix the corners, do: F' R F' R' F' R F' R'
Attachment:
Master Skewb corner fix.png
Master Skewb corner fix.png [ 9.68 KiB | Viewed 7381 times ]
I didn't think about this when I wrote my solution outline above, but I will add it now.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:55 am 
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Thank you Julian and Konrad! I really appreciate you effert put into this! I am sure I will have no trouble solving my Master Skewb now!

I am also thrilled to see that it helped Hidetoshi-san :)

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:31 pm 
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You are awesome Julian! That was it! I can solve it perfectly now!

I definitely plan on making a tutorial on this and the rex cube.

I definitely solve the rex cube a different way then moving 3 of the edge centers (or petals) than most people so I'll most likely do a tutorial on the rex cube first, then transition to the master skewb.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:18 pm 
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I recieved my Master Skewb a few days ago. Nice puzzle.
I've been playing with it a little today, and I've solved it a few times.

My method:
1. Solve edges on black/white side and check corner permutation.
2. Solve the rest of the edges using a Dino Cube 3-cycle.
3. Solve x-center pieces using rex-cube algorithms(I found and created several useful ones, I'll post them soon)
4. Solve inner centers with algorithms.
5. Solve corner permutation.
6. Solve corner orientation.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Sorry for the bump, but I don't want to open a new topic about an already discussed argument...

Yesterday I bought a master skewb and I spent some time trying to solve it. I found out on my own that the best way to solve it is to solve first the skewb and then the inner pieces, but at a certain point I needed of some algorythms to orient the edges and the inner centers without scrambling all the rest, and since I'm not good in experimenting new algs I tried the 2 proposed by Konrad.

Now I'm stucked with always 4 inner centers to swap (also if trying to exchange them they always change they're positions...), and 'till now I'm not been able to solve it...
I took this picture because I think it's an easly recognisable case. Can someone explain me how to complete it?


EDIT: I solved it! :D
I don't need any more help. I first added 1 more scrambled inner center using the algorythm on 2 scrambled centers and a solved one, so that the pieces to swap became 5, then I simultaneously solved 2 of 'em so that remained only 3 centers to swap. For the final solve I just used a last time the center-perm algorythm :D





I also wanted to ask: there are only the 2 algs proposed by Konrad to swap the edges and the inner centers? There's any other alg that permit to swap 2 or 4 edges/centers per time, or always 3 pieces but in different positions?

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:19 am 
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Pepsis wrote:
...EDIT: I solved it! :D
I don't need any more help. I first added 1 more scrambled inner center using the algorythm on 2 scrambled centers and a solved one, so that the pieces to swap became 5, then I simultaneously solved 2 of 'em so that remained only 3 centers to swap. For the final solve I just used a last time the center-perm algorythm :D
I would have done it in a similar way., just using the pure 3-cycle algorithm I have described above.
Pepsis wrote:
I also wanted to ask: there are only the 2 algs proposed by Konrad to swap the edges and the inner centers? There's any other alg that permit to swap 2 or 4 edges/centers per time, or always 3 pieces but in different positions?
Obviously, a swap of 2 edges is not possible, because this puzzle has no parity and no odd permuations are possible. For the centres you could do seemingly a swap of two centres, because there are 4 optically identical centres and you can make a simple setup sequence, where two of the three centres involved have the same colour.
You could try now Julian's favourite method above :)

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Sorry for the bump, but my Master Skewb is driving me up a tree.

When I try to solve the MS using the "Skewb-parts first, then edges, then x-centers" method, I get lost very easily. So, I tried instead to solve it Rex Cube-style, saving the corners for last. But:

Julian wrote:
This is my favorite method to solve the Master Skewb. There is an important extra short step though.


This doesn't help me at all, because my FTO method, which I adapted into my Rex Cube method, is edges-last. So, when I get to the corners, I can't figure out how to cycle three of them without breaking up everything else.

If I had sort of mixed these two methods, solving Skewb-parts, then solving x-centers and edges without regard to the corners, and then fixing the corners at the end, could I still have ended up with this 3-cycle problem? (I'm not sure if it's technically a "parity"...)


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Hi Jared,

Go to my you tube in my signature, look at the Skewb Ultimate /Kite skewb tutorial, [Correction: `The pyraminx 3 edge cycle`, `2x(2corner) swap` and `2 corner orientation` are represented there, and that's what I use for the Master Skewb corners. They are in the second layer of the Skewb Ultimate solution, you use those algs. When and how to apply them is written below].

Sorry, I'm in a hurry, on my way to work, can't check things too much, I think it's: hold the cube like a diamond facing you, do the 4 sequence 3 times.. ? it switches 2 lots of 2 corners (4 corner pieces), the solution is in that direction, or that's what I did anyway, I will fill this in properly later...

Hope that helps,
Burgo.

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Last edited by Burgo on Sat May 14, 2011 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Sorry, but it isn't helping me... I have (two sets of) three corners which need to be cycled. That alg just rotates corners in place.

Code:
A   B
  X

  C


I need to move A to B, B to C, and C to A.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:55 pm 
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I have it, give me an hour, basically the diamond shape and the 3 X application places, then you need to orientate, I orientate with a 2X application U 2x application (reversed) U', It is in my edges 1st rubiks cube: for orientating (at the end).. you hold the master skewb on its tips with a point at you... I will add details later if you can't figure it out from that.. but a quick scan shows others above have methods too.

Cheers
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:27 pm 
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Hi Jared,

It’s a skewb, and on a skewb there are 2 groups of 4 corners locked into different orbits (they don’t exchange with each other). You look for 2 that need `swapping` . Hold the cube with a diamond face looking directly at you, with the corners that need swapping on the top and bottom. There will in this case be 2 that need swapping on the rear diamond also, they will be in horizontal positions. Perform the sequence: (RL’ R’L)X3 (rotating around the right and left front corners R & L).

Then to orientate corners, hold the cube on a tip with another tip up, so that the corner on top turns around a horizontal plane, with 3 lower corners in that plane. Have 1 of these 3 corners directly pointing at you. Perform the sequence: (RL’ R’L)X2 U’ (L’R LR’)X2 U (rotating around the lower right and left –closest- corners R & L). This reorientates 2 corners: the one directly facing you and the one in the top, left, back position.

I hope this makes sense. It is in the Skewb Ultimate and Skewb Kite method that I pointed you to, but it is at the end of where the `skewb cube` would finish. The step in front of where I pointed you to ..sorry..

It is hard to describe so it might still be handy for you to look at that video if you have trouble, skewbs are one thing I can do.. but find it difficult to explain.

Cheers,
Burgo.

PS let me know if you want further help, I will back up what I start :wink: .

PPS You may need to do a setup move in `either sequence`, to place the corners into the desired positions, and then restore the cube after the sequence is performed.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:51 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
You look for 2 that need `swapping` . Hold the cube with a diamond face looking directly at you, with the corners that need swapping on the top and bottom. There will in this case be 2 that need swapping on the rear diamond also, they will be in horizontal positions.
Burgo, this is not the only possible case for the corners to be in. In the position that Jared is describing, of the 4 corners within one orbit, there are 3 corners which need to be cycled and one which is already correct. There are no two incorrect corners which would both be correct after swapping. To see what I mean, take a solved master skewb, make a single turn, and observe the relative positions of the corners.

Jared, I am not aware of any easy sequence to fix the case you have for the corners (and I don't think anyone else has one either, though I could be wrong). Unfortunately, I think if the method you use to solve the rex cube does not automatically avoid ending up in this state, you might have to learn a different method of solving the rex cube in order to solve it this way.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:13 pm 
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DKwan wrote:
Jared, I am not aware of any easy sequence to fix the case you have for the corners (and I don't think anyone else has one either, though I could be wrong). Unfortunately, I think if the method you use to solve the rex cube does not automatically avoid ending up in this state, you might have to learn a different method of solving the rex cube in order to solve it this way.


That's why I wanted to know if pre-solving the corners would fix it. I don't think that my all-purpose Rex-Cube-solving sequence (R L R' L R L R' L, where R and L are diagonally across from each other) introduces a three-cycle...

Anyway, I'm going to go mess with this thing some more. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 9:07 pm 
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Jared wrote:
That's why I wanted to know if pre-solving the corners would fix it. I don't think that my all-purpose Rex-Cube-solving sequence (R L R' L R L R' L, where R and L are diagonally across from each other) introduces a three-cycle...


The method I use to solve the rex cube "basically" only uses R L' R' L (while using turns of a corner in the other orbit to pair up the centers with the outer-centers), which does not allow the corners to end up in that situation. However, I think your algorithm may mess this up... I suppose due to the fact that you have four L's (not a multiple of 3).

EDIT: Hmmm, maybe it doesn't... I think really it has to do with the how the edges match with the corners, which isn't affected by your sequence I think... Have you TRIED solving the corners/edges first, then solving using your rex cube method? I think that even though you will have to re-solve the edges at the end, it is a necessary step to avoid this problem. I had assumed that you had already tried this, since you said that Julian's outline didn't work for you, but now I think I misunderstood your first post.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:18 am 
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I am very interested to see where this goes because I have never had this situation. I believe it is a centre misalignment [Correction: It's an edge misalignment], not a corner misalignment. I have attempted to cause this and I have to break the relationships of the centres to do it (centres to dino edges / centres on the skewb). If I am correct it leaves one of the corners in the other orbit out of orientation with the other 3 also.

In my rex cube solution I do a parity solve of the dino edges and then place respective centres. I think this might be the thing that will avoid this situation. I am interested to see what others who know more might say about it. Anyway this gives you something to try. (Let me know if you do this so I can look elsewhere for the issue).

Cheers,
Burgo.

PS Hi DKwan, doing a single turn around any corner breaks the relationship of the centres to dino edges that we build in the Rex cube solution, do you know what I mean?

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sat May 14, 2011 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:13 am 
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DKwan wrote:
EDIT: Hmmm, maybe it doesn't... I think really it has to do with the how the edges match with the corners, which isn't affected by your sequence I think... Have you TRIED solving the corners/edges first, then solving using your rex cube method?


No, I hadn't tried that, because I was too focused on trying to complete my almost-finished solve. :lol:

I'll rescramble and try that now...


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:56 am 
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Hi Guys,

I just scrambled mine and got a double case of it on both orbits.. When I worked out my method I didn't think it was difficult enough to write it down (I wish I did now), my guess is that I decided to solve the corners first like DKwan suggested. I will work on it a bit further too, Cheers DKwan. And sorry for throwing you a bit Jared.

Julian already wrote about it above, (I just looked). Julian's alg is a more elegant version of the pyraminx 3cycle that I used on the Ultimate Skewb. The only way I could solve it with your case at the end was to do that type of thing, then fix everything. So: Dino solve, check centres (swap faces if necessary), check corners (pyraminx edge cycle fix if necessary), then solve.

Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Fri May 13, 2011 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:26 pm 
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No worries! :)

...But I got lost and messed things up so I started over again. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Hi Friends,
I have been thinking a bit about how I could represent this situation visually to help someone understand what is actually going on here in this case:

As you can see on the left, the cube looks like 3 corners need rotating (L > R > D). And one of the corners in the other orbit (F) is unable to be orientated.

When you rotate around F you can see the truth The edges and centres are incorrectly placed (not the corners). Now, because you are free to move the centres later in the solve, it is only important to rotate these 3 edges.

This can be done with the pryaminx algs: Clockwise: R’ U’ R U’ R’ U’ R / Anticlockwise: R’ U R U R’ U R (holding the cube as a diamond with the F corner in my pictures becoming U). You can also use Julian’s algs above, they are the same thing. (You can now go ahead and solve the cube as normal and only receive the corner misalignment that can be fixed with (RL’ R’L)X3 at the end).

You can do the alignment at the very beginning of the solve.

Another way to rotate 3 edges around a corner though, exists when you remove a row of 3 centre pieces and flip it with the Rex cube method, but this is very hard to visualize in the early stages of the solve, the pyraminx method is easier and faster. (But the main purpose of this post was to show the pictures).

Cheers,
Burgo.


Attachments:
master-skewb.gif
master-skewb.gif [ 186.98 KiB | Viewed 6611 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
...
You can do the alignment at the very beginning of the solve, directly after checking for centre parity. ...
Cheers,
Burgo.
I'm using two solving methods:
A Solve it as a Skewb plus edges, plus X-centres
B Solve the edges first like a Dino, then centres, then corners, X-centres last

My two algorithms for A I have explained in much detail above.
For B I use Julian's corner method above.

Neither in A or B I have aver seen a "centre parity".
What do you mean by this?

Jared is obviously following an "edges last" strategy and has difficulties after he has solved the centres and the X-centres. At least that is what I had perceived.
Would he, possibly, see a centre parity?

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Jared is obviously following an "edges last" strategy and has difficulties after he has solved the centres and the X-centres. At least that is what I had perceived.


Not really - I'm doing "corners last", and the "odd" (?) total twist of the corners is messing me up. :)

Edit: Well, I solved it, although this time I didn't have the corner problem...


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:00 am 
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Jared wrote:
Konrad wrote:
Jared is obviously following an "edges last" strategy and has difficulties after he has solved the centres and the X-centres. At least that is what I had perceived.
Not really - I'm doing "corners last", and the "odd" (?) total twist of the corners is messing me up. :)

Edit: Well, I solved it, although this time I didn't have the corner problem...
Have you ever tried Julian's preferred method:
-Solve the edges in Dino style: Easy
- Solve the centres: very easy (R L' R' L does a 3-cycle without affecting the solved edges)
- solve the corners (following Julian's edited post)
- solve the X-centres using my (easy to learn) pure 3-cycle (please, find it above)
Jared wrote:
...That's why I wanted to know if pre-solving the corners would fix it. I don't think that my all-purpose Rex-Cube-solving sequence (R L R' L R L R' L, where R and L are diagonally across from each other) introduces a three-cycle...
Actually, this is the result on a solved MS (there is a 3-cycle of corners, among other changes):
Image I wonder why you like this sequence so much. :o It does change a lot on the MS at once: A 3-cycle of corners as indicated by the arrows, two other corners are rotated, a 3-cycle of edges, a 3-cycle of X-centres.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:35 am 
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Hi Konrad,

Perhaps the thing that I was thinking would make it clear has muddied it. I was trying to demonstrate `with the photos`: the `parity` if you like, of the (3 edges / 3 corners). Imagine what you see `in the photos`, and then apply it (the pyraminx alg) very early in the solve, so that: then you will build all of those centre pieces around the `correctly placed` corners and edges. The photos are of the situation that Jared had, and I was trying to show that the `problem` he was experiencing was a `3 edge problem`, and not a `3 corner problem`. Does that make sense?

If he finishes with the corners like that, he will have to do the cycle and then rebuild, I think. So he will have to find a way to do the edges before (which is what DKwan was saying).

In my method, I do:

1. [Correction: Dino Solve]: 4 white only
2. Centres to check for centre parity (switch opposite edges if needed)
[Unnecessary]

3. Complete Dino Solve [check colour scheme (same as for 4x4x4 solve) eg Red, White, Blue]*Thanks Konrad*.
4. place corners (RL'R'L)X3 to check for edge parity (pyraminx cycle if necessary)
5. Solve Rex Cube: Build rows of 3 centres with setup moves, and exchange to store with RL'R'L. Flip rows with (RL'R'L) L (DR'D'R), I don't use any r or l moves.
6. Place final corners with (RL'R'L)X3 only
7. Orientate 2 corners with (RL’ R’L)X2 U’ (L’R LR’)X2 U

I really like it, I find it an elegant method (compared to solving other types of cubes), if that makes sense, I really like the little bit of exra thought required in the Rex part. I will have to add your method to my to do list Konrad, because, as you know, I like to see what other methods are like :D . (For me, two solutions is a bit like 2 cubes for the price of 1).

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Wed May 18, 2011 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:03 am 
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Burgo wrote:
...
In my method, I do:

1. Domino: 4 white only
Probably, you mean Dino not Domino?
Burgo wrote:
2. Centres to check for centre parity (switch opposite edges if needed)
3. Complete Domino Solve
And why do you need that parity check? If you go on with the Dino solve until all 12 edges have been solved, you can always get the centres correct, afterwards. Simple 3-cycles only.
Burgo wrote:
4. place corners (RL'R'L)X3 to check for edge parity (pyraminx cycle if necessary)
5. Solve Rex Cube: Build rows of 3 centres with setup moves, and exchange to store with RL'R'L. Flip rows with (RL'R'L) L (DR'D'R), I don't use any r or l moves.
Quote:
What is wrong with r or l moves? :) I find my Rex cube method simpler: Solve the edges Dino style,(easy) solve square centres (very easy), solve the Rex teeth (X-Centres) using a pure (3,1) commutator for a 3-cycle. One algorithm for the whole family FTO triangles, Rex teeth, MS X-centres!

6. Place final corners with (RL'R'L)X3 only
7. Orientate 2 corners with (RL’ R’L)X2 U’ (L’R LR’)X2 U

I really like it, I find it an elegant method, if that makes sense, I really like the little bit of exra thought required in the Rex part.
Probably, everybody likes his own method best. :) That's good. I find the Skewb + edges + X-centres easier to find and I find Julian's preferred method elegant.
Burgo wrote:
I will have to add your method to my to do list Konrad, because, as you know, I like to see what other methods are like :D . (For me it's a bit like 2 cubes for the price of 1).

Cheers,
Burgo.
I agree, that the Master Skewb is a very enjoyable puzzle. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:28 am 
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Konrad wrote:
Burgo wrote:
...
2. Centres to check for centre parity (switch opposite edges if needed)
3. Complete Domino Solve
And why do you need that parity check? If you go on with the Dino solve until all 12 edges have been solved, you can always get the centres correct, afterwards. Simple 3-cycles only.

The 6-colour Dino Cube has two solutions, mirror images of each other. Similarly, on the Rex cube and Master Skewb, if you do edges first you can put the edges together in a mirror image colour pattern. This cannot of course then be built upon to get a complete solution as these puzzles only have one solved colour pattern.
On the Master Skewb you can easily compare edges with the a corner to see if you got it right.
On the Rex Cube you have to solve the centres. If you end up with two centres swapped w.r.t. the edges, then the edges are wrong and you need to mirror their colours (e.g. by swapping colours of two opposite faces).
Of course, if you do centres first or corners first, you will never run into this problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:50 am 
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jaap wrote:
...
Of course, if you do centres first or corners first, you will never run into this problem.
Memorizing the colour scheme of the solved Rex Cube or Master Skewb will do it as well, right?

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Last edited by Konrad on Tue May 17, 2011 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:54 am 
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Hi Konrad and Jaap,

If I don't do the centres there, which is a very easy step at that time, I can end up with the ugly situation of having no corners correctly placed in the next step (step 4). You can try it: purposely make a 2 centre swap and then Dino solve and see the corners. What do you think? I mean: I think you need to build the cube on the correct face first.

Cheers,
Burgo.

PS The r and l moves are a bit like the secret move on the 3x3x2 circle cube, they are a bit eerie :lol: .

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:43 am 
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Burgo wrote:
Hi Konrad and Jaap,

If I don't do the centres there, which is a very easy step at that time, I can end up with the ugly situation of having no corners correctly placed in the next step (step 4).
If you do your step 1 (Dino solve of the four white edges) and you follow the correct colour scheme, you can go on with the rest of the Dino edges and do the centres afterwards. That's what I do and I have never seen any centre parity.
Burgo wrote:
You can try it: purposely make a 2 centre swap and then Dino solve and see the corners. What do you think?

Cheers,
Burgo.

PS The r and l moves are a bit like the secret move on the 3x3x2 circle cube, they are a bit eerie :lol: .
I would rather compare it with a slice move on the 3x3x3. You can always do the same by outer layer moves, but inner slice moves can be very helpful for finding commutators and it is less confusing if less pieces are moved (an inner slice move on the MS leaves the corners untouched.) The (3,1) commutator above contains an r or l move (up and down). Easy to memorize, easy to see what's going on. And one sequence for the 24 triangles, 24 Rex teeth, 24 X-centres. My real working horse for the whole family :D

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:41 am 
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Konrad wrote:
I wonder why you like this sequence so much. :o


Well, because it's the one I use for the Face Turning Octahedron. On that puzzle, it rotates a whole face (sans corners), meaning you can use it to manipulate the edge pieces easily (if not quickly), and with some setup moves you can also use it to fix that puzzle's centers. So, when I got a Rex Cube, I used the same sequence to solve it. When there are no visible Skewb corners, it's much more useful. :lol:

I will try a different method next time...


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:48 am 
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:idea:
Burgo wrote:
In my method, I do:

1. [Correction: Dino Solve]: 4 white only
2. Centres to check for centre parity (switch opposite edges if needed)
[Unnecessary]

3. Complete Dino Solve [check colour scheme (same as for 4x4x4 solve) eg Red, White, Blue]*Thanks Konrad*.
4. place corners (RL'R'L)X3 to check for edge parity (pyraminx cycle if necessary)
5. Solve Rex Cube: Build rows of 3 centres with setup moves, and exchange to store with RL'R'L. Flip rows with (RL'R'L) L (DR'D'R), I don't use any r or l moves.
6. Place final corners with (RL'R'L)X3 only
7. Orientate 2 corners with (RL’ R’L)X2 U’ (L’R LR’)X2 U

I really like it, I find it an elegant method (compared to solving other types of cubes), if that makes sense, I really like the little bit of exra thought required in the Rex part. I will have to add your method to my to do list Konrad, because, as you know, I like to see what other methods are like :D . (For me, two solutions is a bit like 2 cubes for the price of 1).
:roll:

Thanks Konrad,
Now my Rex and Master Skewb Solutions are smoother thanks to you.
You don't miss a trick! Mind like a steel trap, they say. (compliments)
Cheers,
Burgo. :D

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Konrad wrote:
Have you ever tried Julian's preferred method:
-Solve the edges in Dino style: Easy
- Solve the centres: very easy (R L' R' L does a 3-cycle without affecting the solved edges)
- solve the corners (following Julian's edited post)
- solve the X-centres using my (easy to learn) pure 3-cycle (please, find it above)


Finally, I can use this method without getting confused. :D (Well sort of - I fix the corner "parity" before the second step.)

BTW, your alg picture has a typo, where it says B instead of R... maybe that was throwing me off? I know that seeing both sides of the cube for each step was also sort of confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:40 am 
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Jared wrote:
...Finally, I can use this method without getting confused. :D (Well sort of - I fix the corner "parity" before the second step.)

BTW, your alg picture has a typo, where it says B instead of R... maybe that was throwing me off? I know that seeing both sides of the cube for each step was also sort of confusing.
Sorry for the typo :oops: On the other hand, the text above the typo picture had been correct. :wink:
Thanks for the hint, anyway. So I know, that at least one person has looked at the picture.
I have corrected it!

Regarding the view of all faces:
- This is Gelatinbrain's method to show all faces of a puzzle
- Maybe, it is a bit confusing first, but how else should I (or Gelatinbrain) show on a 2D picture what is going on?
- Do you think that showing one view per move (i.e. 3 faces) would be preferrable and you would guess what stickers are where on the other three faces?

Usually, I would assume that explaining the notation and giving the algotithm in plain text would be sufficient. But somebody was complaining that the algorithm was very hard to follow. Therefore, I have made that picture.
(If somebody is too lazy to look it up above, we are talking about a pure 3-cycle of faces = X-centres: l' (R' L R) l (R' L' R). Probably you need to look up the notation, anyway. L and R are moves of two neighbored corners. looking at the front face, and l is the slice below L).

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:30 pm 
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The reason I found it confusing is because the pictures are arranged from left to right - so it looks like "do this, then turn the cube upside down and do this, then...".

Also - and this might be just me, but maybe it's worth mentioning - if there were arrows on every step of the algorithm picture, that would be very helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:07 am
Location: Germany, Bavaria
Jared wrote:
The reason I found it confusing is because the pictures are arranged from left to right - so it looks like "do this, then turn the cube upside down and do this, then...".

Also - and this might be just me, but maybe it's worth mentioning - if there were arrows on every step of the algorithm picture, that would be very helpful.
Hopefully, you had read that for each move there had been a double picture? (I had arrows on the earlier pictures for the inner slice moves, not for the corner moves.)

Anyway, I have changed the notation (to make it consistent with Julian's) and have improved my two sequence pictures. I show the back view for the result only.
I start with the solved cube, show each move by arrow and move letter and the next single picture shows the result and indicates the next move by arrow and letter.
I agree, that in this case the double pictures, showing all six faces in Gelatinbrain style, are not necessary and more confusing than helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Master Skewb algs please!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:16 pm
Location: Somewhere Else
Konrad wrote:
Hopefully, you had read that for each move there had been a double picture?


Of course I'd read that - but it didn't stop me from becoming confused anyway. :lol:

Anyway, I think the new diagram is MUCH MUCH more helpful and easier to read. :D


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