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 Post subject: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:31 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
So many choices, I can think of at least 5 five that I'd be happy to see win.


Totally agreed! I can vote this month if and only if
there are at least five options. Voting for two is just unfair...
(that is, the 1st "voted puzzle" gets five points, 2nd get four,
3rd gets 3, 4th gets two points, and 5th gets one point - quite fair
and more "distributive" method, isn't it?)

And because of this, this month, I am on a "voting-strike"!!!
(it is a common thing in Greece)

:lol:


Pantazis


PS. Joking aside, the puzzle of the month voting, is an outstanding
inititiave and it requires a lot of work. I give my full support and respect
to everyone involved in this. But please forgive me for not being
flexible this time, as you must all admit, there are too many absolutely
GREAT puzzles this month, and two votes is simply not enough!

I am starting this topic to discuss how voting should work for puzzle of the Year and puzzle of the Month. Steyrne, please post the current Puzzle of the Month rules below.

Also unless someone else has allready volunteered, I'm hoping to be in charge of Puzzle of the Year:2010.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:33 pm 
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In my opinion, I think that if there are 24 puzzles at the end of the year, everybody gets to pick three. When there is the top three, everybody can pick one. The most common one is the winner.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:20 pm 
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A perfectly fair voting in an ideal world, would include sub-votes in each person's vote,
where each sub-vote corresponds to one of the nominated puzzles giving to it some "weight"

Now, if there are 200 puzzles (for example) it is ridiculous to expect everyone to submit
a vote made of 200 sub-votes. There are too many puzzles!

Now, that said, if we give a single sub-vote for each puzzle, then the amount of
"truncated pixelization" (allow me to use this term) essentially hurts a fair outcome,
as its too simple nature does not give chance to other puzzles to receive some sort
of recognition, which are "close calls". Always remember, even if a puzzle is a magnificent
masterpiece, opinions are still personal!

This procedure should be very similar to how to create an image. Too much details, makes
things too complex. Too much simplicity, and we loose the details forever.

Therefore, the solution is somewhere in between. To me, ten votes are a super efficient way.
And if it is asked to lessen that number of sub-votes, it should never be less than five. I mean,
how hard is it to give five votes for a month's puzzle? And preferably, each sub-vote should be
given a different weight, as stated in my quoted post above.

Anyway, I hope I made sense!

:mrgreen:


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:24 pm 
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This year, it should be more advertised, stickied for one. Last year's winner was the Starminx, how many people besides me knew that? Not a lot. The thread just sort of died off, I don't even think the winner was announced.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:59 am 
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For puzzle of the year, I think it should consist of 30 finalists; 24 from 1st and 2nd place of the 12 months and an additional 6 voted at the end of the year. This would allow great puzzles that somehow slipped through puzzle of the month to still have a chance for puzzle of the year.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:07 am 
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Never quite understood why it's not just one round one vote. What could be simpler? If there's a tie just vote again with only those puzzles included.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:12 am 
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yep Tony. K.I.S.S

Why do we need to make things difficult?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:23 am 
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Because maybe, just maybe, there is some notion in mathematics which is efficiently used
all over the world in *infinite* areas and it is called normal distribution?

You can never have a good estimation of what is good and what is not
without it. And at this stage, the number of people who vote is so small,
that we cannot even use the Central Limit Theorem!!!

So the question is not whether five votes are too many, but if even ten are enough!
(always assuming we all want a fair outcome based on hypothesis testing).

I am no super expert in stats (though I teach some units at Uni), as I love algebra and
graph theory, but they are a good tool which provides us with some powerful knowledge.

That is, *if* we want to use it.


Pantazis


PS. I explained it in a simple way in a previous post of this thread. I really cannot see any
reason why using five votes makes things complex. Is some extra simple arithmetic so hard?
(especially as we gain in return a fair result - compared to a previous ambiguous one).
No one needs to understand the theory, but I am sure many can appreciate its application
(even some engineers who hate maths certainly do!). In our case, we have two benefits:
(a) it gives us more options, and (b) it ensures the voting is fair.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:08 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Because maybe, just maybe, there is some notion in mathematics which is efficiently used
all over the world in *infinite* areas and it is called normal distribution?

You can never have a good estimation of what is good and what is not
without it. And at this stage, the number of people who vote is so small,
that we cannot even use the Central Limit Theorem!!!

So the question is not whether five votes are too many, but if even ten are enough!
(always assuming we all want a fair outcome based on hypothesis testing).

I am no super expert in stats (though I teach some units at Uni), as I love algebra and
graph theory, but they are a good tool which provides us with some powerful knowledge.

That is, *if* we want to use it.


Pantazis


PS. I explained it in a simple way in a previous post of this thread. I really cannot see any
reason why using five votes makes things complex. Is some extra simple arithmetic so hard?
(especially as we gain in return a fair result - compared to a previous ambiguous one).
No one needs to understand the theory, but I am sure many can appreciate its application
(even some engineers who hate maths certainly do!). In our case, we have two benefits:
(a) it gives us more options, and (b) it ensures the voting is fair.


1. Simple = more voters = better results. I for one can't be bothered voting if it means the usual over complications.
2. It always amuses me on forums where the subject of the forum seems to have an unnecessary influence on all topics whether relevant or not. Meaning, this is a puzzle forum filled with puzzle people who by their very nature will analyse and work everything out to the nth degree. If it was a marzipan collecting forum I suspect they would just vote on the best one without any discussion on what system to use.
3. As someone who comes from a country with a first past the post political system I am quite happy with it's fairness.
4. Most importantly, isn't this kind of thing just meant to be a bit of fun?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:45 pm 
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I'd suggest looking closely at the Hugo voting process. It's something that's held up without major changes over at least 30 years of both commercial interests and fannish bickering (and trust me, fen can argue a lot..). This suggests it's both complex and fair. It may also have been what the person quoted in the first post was thinking of.

http://www.thehugoawards.org/the-voting-system/


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:06 pm 
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I agree with Tony. Adding rules makes it harder to vote, which means less voter turn out. The more votes there are, the less chance there is of a tie. Besides, in a close match, what difference does it make? If Puzzle A gets 50% -1 votes and Puzzle B gets 50% +1 votes, who wins? Even if it's close you must cut the end off somewhere. I'm sure it has been a close competition in years past, but there's no need to be tie-proof- if it comes to it just have a round 2. Simple as that.

More rules, less turn-out. Kastellorizo, the reason you get 2 votes per month is to match up with various qualities Statistics tend to promote. It's the Goldilocks middle with the voting turn-out we've had. If more people vote, as we'd prefer, maybe we might increase the number of votes next year's months.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:17 pm 
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I agree with Tony - let's keep it simple and not try to over-engineer what is supposed to be a bit of fun into some elaborate academic mathematical theory. Otherwise I will be voting for this instead. :lol:

As long as the same simple rules apply equally to each puzzle and voter then it IS a fair system by definition.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Ok, I guess many people (in a puzzle forum!!!) can't bother to count till five then.
And the only difficult part(?) which needs to be calculated in the end, just needs
simple division by one person (not the rest).
Is counting to five really that complicated as presented here? Hmmm...

There was absolutely no request to use any complicated formula
and attempts to present this as "complicated" are not realistic.
(I only gave an argument which had some underlying theory,
a theory no one needs to understand, just to appreciate).

And something I love to say and repeat again and again:

"History has confirmed many times, that those who underestimate and ignore
mathematics, face a much more gruesome fate than having their goals shattered.
That is, to miss out the true beauty of our universe.
"

Saying that the current system is "fair" with the current number of voters is
very deceiving. Any proof for that please? But what am I saying, there is none!
i.e. the sample space is too small and it is a fraction of the entire population
Therefore it is unfair by definition, as it is too cumbersome to converge to
extremes.

I did my part here and I won't waste my time any more arguing about obvious things.
Because I agree, this is supposed to be fun. But until we have enough voters to make
it fair, we need to ensure it is. Using the "simplicity" label to deliberately avoid a fair voting,
is something I won't buy (I repeat, the results *are* ambiguous with the current numbers!).

Your call guys.

;)


Pantazis


PS. My next request would be to apply quotients of affine normal edge transitive Cayley graphs,
but I guess, from what I have seen, this is already out of the question! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:49 pm 
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I tend to agree with Pantazis that sometimes "pick one" can lead to under appreciated puzzles (puzzles that don't get many first place votes but are widely valued and may show up as seconds). I might suggest a "top three" (gold silver bronze?) vote but am fine with one, three or five. Ten is probably too many I think :)

Perhaps a there are voting schemes that allow a mix of single and multiple votes? I must imagine it has been considered before. That would allow those who simply want to keep it simple to do so, and those who wish to give a bit more depth an opportunity to do so.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Think of it as an audition. Either you get the part or you don't. Though many are rejected, Puzzle of the Year is the one that stands out as the year's best puzzle. I have nothing wrong with the runners-up being honorable mention. And remember, this is only for fun. The only prize is pride.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:45 pm 
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OK, here's another thing to think about :D
At the end of the year, how are you ever supposed to remember all the amazing puzzles pumped out in the year? It would be nice to have it narrowed down to atleast 25 obvious ones or something like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:15 pm 
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ENCuber wrote:
OK, here's another thing to think about
It would be nice to have it narrowed down to atleast 25 obvious ones or something like that.

PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
For puzzle of the year, I think it should consist of 30 finalists; 24 from 1st and 2nd place of the 12 months and an additional 6 voted at the end of the year. This would allow great puzzles that somehow slipped through puzzle of the month to still have a chance for puzzle of the year.
Already discussed.

ENCUber wrote:
At the end of the year, how are you ever supposed to remember all the amazing puzzles pumped out in the year?

Really? Don't tell me this work was in vain! This was exactly the reason why I started doing this!!!
Puzzles of January
Puzzles of February
Puzzles of March
Puzzles of April
Puzzles of May
Puzzles of June
Puzzles of July
Puzzles of August

Speaking of voting, place your votes for Puzzles of August please!!! There aren't enough votes yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:45 am 
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Rentlix wrote:
Puzzles of August

Speaking of voting, place your votes for Puzzles of August please!!! There aren't enough votes yet.



I have noticed a significant increase of voters compared to last time. This is a very good sign.

The magic number is 30 samples (in this case voters). Once it reaches 29, I will gladly add the 30th
as the cherry at the top of the cake, as in that case, the result would be "confidently fair".

:wink:

Thanks for doing all this! And come on people, support this effort by voting. You do not want to
have *your* influence missing out from the best puzzle selection, do you?

:)


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:38 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSCU8Mc0R4c

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Tony Fisher wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSCU8Mc0R4c

Eeh haweh whyaye man thez sum canny vurtn gannin on there yunnah.

Smashin, pet. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:54 pm 
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For the most part, I would agree with Tony about having 1 round of voting. The only problem with this is the list would be huge and you might forget what was made if you skimmed it.

I'd like to see a list of puzzles in the same format as the monthly list with the number of votes it recieve, but only show puzzles that received at least 1 vote during their month. Write in puzzles should still be accepted too.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:50 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fzCnTg3kkA&feature=fvst

They mention fingers, ice creams sodas, frogs, dimes, fancy fruitcakes... but no votes! Oh well...

Bonus video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmfKzTOGf-U

:lol:


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle of the Year (and month)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:11 pm 
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Just make a post called "vote here!" and have people leave replys on the puzzle of the year


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