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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:56 pm 
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Solved 2.1.2 in 2287 moves 8-):
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It isn't every day that I beat both Julian's and Daniel Devitt's move count. Agamemnon Harmagedon has been throwing down some seriously impressive solves though so I didn't even come close to his move count (or time!).

On 2.1.1 I used routines based of a 8-move sequence borrowed from the FTO/Pyraminx. For 2.1.2 I commuted a (1,1) routine to solve center diamonds ((1,1), 3), center triangles ((1,1),1) and small two-color triangles ((1,1),3). Since the (1,1) is basically the same as from 1.1.4 I think Julian's move saving trick of turning the (1,1) routine into a 3 move sequence would work here too. That would make these sequences (3,3), (3,1), and (3,3) respectively.

I'm not sure I want to invest another 3 hours into 2.1.3 which is just an edgeless 2.1.2...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:01 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Julian, can you elaborate on what you mean by the "freeslice" trick? Is it just the stripping you described or it there something deeper to it?

Edit: I got to thinking about what you might mean by "freeslice". Do you mean that on puzzles where you are reducing to some other puzzle, you can drop the final moves of a routine that only change the reduced puzzle? That would seem more like "free face" moves to me. Like on 3.4.5 where if you are reducing to a Rubik's cube, you don't need to undo 3x3x3 setup moves at the end of a vertex-based routine?

Yes, that's the idea. It was called freeslice for higher cubes because you let the equator slices drift around freely, then you join up the slices/strips to make whole centers again before reducing the last 4 edges.

My 127 moves for 5.1.18 was a lucky solve without using my improved algos, so I should be able to improve on it!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:04 pm 
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Uff. :lol:
I've been busy with the aplet today. And it was really fun. Sometimes I feel such a need to rack my brain over some puzzles! :scrambled:
I solved

2.2.1
2.2.2
easy once, I don't know why I haven't solved them earlier.

2.2.11b
2.2.14
2.2.15 really fun and tricky for me.

3.2.6
and finally
3.2.2, the Master Skewb
This was my first Master Skewb solve. I was close to the solution once but couldn't position the squares correctly.

I guess I wasn't fast on any of them though. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:32 pm 
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Julian, this is very old news i suppose but remember this post from a while back
Julian wrote:
1.1.26 = 1.1.5, then solve all the circle pieces with (14,1) commutators.
Edit: The corner/keystone circle pieces can be solved non-pure with the same (8,1) commutators as cycling the circle pieces of 1.1.27 pure; adding a suitable setup and undo move gives (10,1) commutators that cycle the edge/wedge circle pieces pure.
and this
Julian wrote:
1.1.31 = 1.1.18, solving the non-circle parts of pieces, then circle pieces exactly like 1.1.26.

1.1.32 = 1.1.18, solving the circle/inner parts of the diamonds, then bitten diamond crescents pure (10,1).

1.1.33 = 1.1.18, solving the non-circle parts of pieces, then corner-circle "wedges" non-pure (8,1), then edge-circle "keystones" pure (10,1).

1.1.34 = solve everything except the inner circles like 1.1.18, then macaroni pieces (8,1) non pure, then little triangles (10,1) pure.

Some of the others look seriously tricky!
Well i haven't been solving anything lately and it turns out i've forgotten allot of algs i found. So i was looking into 1.1.18 and it's circle variations 1.1.31-34 and i found a strange 16 move alg that is kind of an (8,1) with a couple of moves missing, or more specificly a ((3,1missing the last move),1), that works for allot of puzzles. It can replace the (10,1) you suggested for the "edge/wedge circle pieces pure." of 1.1.26 and 1.1.31 aswell as the "bitten diamond crescents" of 1.1.32 and the (8,1) for the circle wedges of 1.1.33 and the macaroni pieces of 1.1.34. It also works on 1.1.25 but you said you had a 14 move alg for the circle pieces of it so probably not so usefull :) but considering i don't know that i'd say this alg was a very good find.
The strange part is it's pure for all of them.
I still don't have much time for puzzling so i've started writing some algs down because it's very frustrating spending a lot of time trying to three cycle a piece you could a few months ago

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 12:59 am 
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alaskajoe wrote:
Uff. :lol:
I've been busy with the aplet today. And it was really fun. Sometimes I feel such a need to rack my brain over some puzzles! :scrambled:
Welcome to the leader board :D
alaskajoe wrote:
I solved

2.2.1
2.2.2
easy once, I don't know why I haven't solved them earlier.
That was my reaction when I got around to solving these too. Fun puzzles. 2.2.9 is like a "4x4x4" analogue of 2.2.1 if 2.2.1 were a "3x3x3". 2.1.10 is the "4x4x4" analogue of 2.2.2.
alaskajoe wrote:
2.2.11b
2.2.14
2.2.15 really fun and tricky for me.
I really enjoyed 2.2.14-2.2.18 but they took me much longer. You should find 2.2.16-2.2.18 to be no more difficult than 2.1.14 or 2.1.15. Figuring out that series of puzzles helped me to figure out the entire 5.1.x series.
alaskajoe wrote:
3.2.6
and finally
3.2.2, the Master Skewb
This was my first Master Skewb solve. I was close to the solution once but couldn't position the squares correctly.
Great job, I just solved 3.2.6 a few days ago. I treated it like a FTO. I haven't gotten around to the Master Skewb yet.
alaskajoe wrote:
I guess I wasn't fast on any of them though. :mrgreen:
Way faster than me! I like to think I'd have a lot more puzzles solved by now if each one didn't take me 1-3 hours :?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:14 am 
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:D I just solved 1.3.5 (I guess the Tuttminx) with no specific concept in my mind whatsoever when I started solving and I did it in 20 minutes about. I thought that can't be fast but it seems I am 3rd with that time.
I must have been one lucky dude to aparantly find a good way to solve it right away. :mrgreen:
Or there are horibly parity issues that I didn't encounter. ? I did have some difficulty orientating the last two two-colored edgepieces but it just worked then. :oops: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:55 am 
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Oh my god. :?
I solved 2.2.16 in 1:35:04 hrs and 3233 moves.
I didn't really enjoy it. It was just a drag.
I solved by pairing up the edges first and then I paired up the triangles, so I could solve it like an Icosaminx at the end. Pairing up triangles took soo long. I kind of did it like you would build up the centers of a higher order cube or minx. Just combined with an algorithm that is similar to building up edges on higher cubes or minxes. Kind off "bring it out of the way, get something that's not solved instead and restore. In this case restor the edges.
But the most annoying thing was the stupid edge parity at the end again. Can't I just for once solve a 10 color Icosaminx without having the wrong edge in the last row? :x :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
So i was looking into 1.1.18 and it's circle variations 1.1.31-34 and i found a strange 16 move alg that is kind of an (8,1) with a couple of moves missing, or more specificly a ((3,1missing the last move),1), that works for allot of puzzles. It can replace the (10,1) you suggested for the "edge/wedge circle pieces pure." of 1.1.26 and 1.1.31 aswell as the "bitten diamond crescents" of 1.1.32 and the (8,1) for the circle wedges of 1.1.33 and the macaroni pieces of 1.1.34. It also works on 1.1.25 but you said you had a 14 move alg for the circle pieces of it so probably not so usefull :) but considering i don't know that i'd say this alg was a very good find.
The strange part is it's pure for all of them.
That is a good find! You've described a "commutated conjugate". The 7 moves are a conjugate sequence (P Q P'): moves 1-3 isolate a circle wedge, move 4 swaps it with another, and moves 5-7 (the inverse of moves 1-3) bring the swapped piece back. That must be how it works, but I can't find it!

The best I can do is finding a new (8,1) pure algo for the center wedges of 1.1.32, 1.1.33, and 1.1.34. But it makes a mess of 1.1.25, 1.1.26 and 1.1.31. The fact that your algo works with those last three, with their much wider slices, makes me think that maybe all 7 of your moves are face moves? :? Hmmm...


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Julian wrote:
The 7 moves are a conjugate sequence (P Q P'): moves 1-3 isolate a circle wedge, move 4 swaps it with another, and moves 5-7 (the inverse of moves 1-3) bring the swapped piece back. That must be how it works
Yes it's exactly that
Julian wrote:
those last three, with their much wider slices, makes me think that maybe all 7 of your moves are face moves? Hmmm...
Hahaha not at all. Slice1, slice2, slice1, face, slice1 slice2 slice1 opposite face slice1 slice2 slice1 first face slice1 slice2 slice1 opposite face.
The original (3,1) is something i found to cycle the center diamonds of 1.1.18. when i applied it to 1.1.31 i realised that it left one half of the puzzle scrambled and the other had just 2 wedge pieces and one keystone swapped however one of the wedge pieces and the keystone piece are in the circle of the face you turn so they are unaffected.
Now my problem is i don't know how to do the keystone pieces :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:20 pm 
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I've posted my solution for the Halper-Myern pyramid a while ago and it is still not linked.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:45 pm 
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Mindstormscreator wrote:
I've posted my solution for the Halper-Myern pyramid a while ago and it is still not linked.

That's because it solves like a skewb? IDK, another puzzle I've never done on GB.

I should go through and do all the puzzles I know how to do some time.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:06 am 
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Mindstormscreator wrote:
I've posted my solution for the Halper-Myern pyramid a while ago and it is still not linked.

If you are referring to the first post in this thread by Noah, unfortunately he doesn't come around/post anymore. Nearly all of Gelatinbrain's puzzles have some form of solution outline in this thread somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:14 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
unfortunately he doesn't come around/post anymore
That and updating that first post has become a monster of a task. Even just making it so it had the right amount of puzzles would take a while let alone searching through this huge thread to find, and link to, all the solutions in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:32 pm 
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Well that was hard.
Attachment:
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1138 moves and 3:46:44. I think Michael could get it in less than 1000 if he really tried. I could have saved allot of moves at the start if i tried to pair the edges two at a time but really i had enough trouble doing it one at a time that and the fact that my pyraminx crystal part of the solve was 274 moves and Michael's record is 142 :o well actually mine is 188 so i could probably get below 1000 too but i don't think it is worth the three and a half hours :lol:
Edit: that'd be right i just figured out i could do the triangles AND the centers both in (3,1) instead of (4,1) so that's even more moves i could have saved.
Edit: It is actually smarter to go for full reduction to 1.1.4 and add the rhombus shaped pieces to the edge pairs after pairing them.

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Last edited by Elwyn on Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:03 am 
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Elwyn, I'm looking forward to trying some of your ideas out! In the mean time, I decided to tackle an edge-turner :D 1.4.2:
Attachment:
1.4.2_solve.png
1.4.2_solve.png [ 30.13 KiB | Viewed 5661 times ]
If I had known this was going to take me almost 3 hours I wouldn't have started it tonight. Figuring out a solving strategy is easy but applying it turns out to be hard.

I solved:
1) Centers -- just twist them in place -- no more than 16 moves.
2) 3-cycle edges ((1,1),1) for a total of 10 moves. I also found an 8 move routine but it had harder setup moves.
3) 3-cycle small triangles. I commuted a helicopter cube routine ( X Y Z Y X Y Z Y, A). There are probably shorter routines.

To save moves you can combine phase 1 and 2. Don't bother placing all of the centers and just place centers as you "need" to before you start placing edges around that face. Even more extreme would be to solve it almost "layer-by-layer" top down combining phase 1, 2, and 3. I suspect this is what Michael and Julian did.

I used to think the edge turners were impossible, this solve gives me a bit of a confidence boost 8-).

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:36 am 
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1.3.1
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OK i know there was a fair bit of discussion about this puzzle back on page 29 however my method seems rather different. Also i think it's probably better considering i used less than 2/3 the moves Julian did.

Solution outline.

1. Centers, it took me 9 moves....

2. reduce all corners to full megaminx corners, VERY simple! corner turn, face turn, corner turn. Took around 120 moves.

3. solve as a megaminx placing as many small triangles in place as you can pretending they are megaminx edges though of course most of them will be in wrong pairs. I think i managed to solve over half of them in this step. Oh also if you get parity (one twisted corner) start again :roll: that got tedious by the third time.

4. solve remaining small triangles using a (3,1) commutator. Weird but rather easy setup moves.

This would be a very fun puzzle if it wasn't for that damn parity. Or if i knew how to fix it :?

I suppose if Michael reads this he'll kick himself for not thinking of reduction considering how good he is at that kind of thing :)

Edit: I'd now reduce edges by making all legitimate megaminx edges before solving the megaminx in step 3 which would make step 4 redundant.

The alg for the thin triangles is hidden below

ABC&2, D', ABC'&2, AEF', ABC&2, D, ABC'&2, AEF,

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Last edited by Elwyn on Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:19 am 
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Brandon, Nice work on 1.4.2! I haven't even solved the helicopter cube yet.
Going back to your 1.1.17 solution i think i have found an easier way.
Your step 1 and 2 are fine but from there you can solve large triangles pieces dirty (3,1) then small triangles slightly less dirty (3,1) then wide triangles pure (3,1). Edit: oops i just read a little further and found that Julian said almost the exact same thing though he said (4,1) for the big triangles not (3,1)

That might also help with recognition too because the large triangles are nice and easy to find and once they are in it should look a little less complicated.

I have all the algs written down in a Word document now but i don't know when i'll actually bother solving it. That's the story for 1.1.19/20/33/32/8/25 and 2.1.1/2/3 and way more..... i wish i had a little more time to put all these solutions into practice.

Also 1.1.33 is listed as 1.1.32 in the records and vice-versa.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 1:17 am 
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I've worked out a method for 1.4.4 and 1.4.5. The method is basically the same for both and they should take roughly the same number of moves. Based on how long 1.4.2 took though, I'm expecting this method to take 4-5 hours and weigh in at about 2500-3500 moves :evil: Maybe I should re-think my no-macro policy :?

If anyone is interested I'd be happy to outline my strategy.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:27 am 
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Damn!!! I was hoping i wouldn't run into that. Especially considering the move count of 527 is 216 moves less than the record.
Alright i fixed it but because i was rather annoyed i went for the brute force method that caused many pieces to become unsolved and by this stage i didn't care so ended on 763 moves..... ARGHHHH i think i might have to solve this again!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:30 pm 
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I just solved 1.3.5 and decided to tackle 1.3.6. It is actually slightly easier (but surprisingly has 10 fewer solvers). Unfortunately the applet didn't recognize the solved state and the timer didn't stop:
Attachment:
1.3.6_solved.png
1.3.6_solved.png [ 33.06 KiB | Viewed 5753 times ]
I'd say this is a real testament to the quality of the applet considering this is my 143 solve and I have only had one other bug like this (4.2.3 was prematurely recognized as solved).

I ended up with one corner twisted but if you already have the thin center triangles solved there is a short, easy, 16 move routine to twist a single corner (I figure macro notation only give something away if you want it to):
DCG', D', ABC, A, DCG, ACD, DCG', ACD, DCG, ACD, DCG', ACD, A', ABC', D, DCG

Elwyn, don't let the corner+face twisting aspect of this puzzle turn you away, I think you'd really enjoy this puzzle and I think you could compete with Michael's and Julian's move count. I was very wasteful, I think my move count could be cut in half.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 6:07 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
1.3.1
{...snip...}
3. solve as a megaminx placing as many small triangles in place as you can pretending they are megaminx edges though of course most of them will be in wrong pairs. I think i managed to solve over half of them in this step. Oh also if you get parity (one twisted corner) start again :roll: that got tedious by the third time.

If you're centers are already solved then I see a X Y2 X' routine of length 12:

D, C,
ADE, ABC, ADE', ABC,
ADE, ABC, ADE', ABC,
C', D'

Julian, is this the type of sequence you were calling a conjugate?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:19 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
If you're centers are already solved then I see a X Y2 X' routine of length 12:

D, C,
ADE, ABC, ADE', ABC,
ADE, ABC, ADE', ABC,
C', D'

Julian, is this the type of sequence you were calling a conjugate?

Yep that does it. nice find. It also meses up 3 small triangles though but considering i do them just after the corners that's fine.
Edit: it only screws the small triangles if you do D and C in the wrong order like i did
bmenrigh wrote:
Elwyn, don't let the corner+face twisting aspect of this puzzle turn you away
Not too sure what you mean by this. The puzzle i solved 2 days ago was a face/corner turning dodeca just like that one? That said i don't think i'll solve it for a while because the next puzzle i'm after is 1.1.8. It's been the only gap between 1.1.1 and 1.1.12 since about 6 months ago when i decided it was too hard hahaha but now i think i can get close to or possibly even beat Michael's move count so i'm going to go for it soon.

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Last edited by Elwyn on Sun May 09, 2010 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:30 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
Elwyn, don't let the corner+face twisting aspect of this puzzle turn you away
Not too sure what you mean by this. The puzzle i solved 2 days ago was a face/corner turning dodeca just like that one?
Yeah I didn't realize that until after I wrote that. I didn't mean anything bad by it, sorry that it came out sounding wrong. I think you'll like 1.3.6!
Elwyn wrote:
That said i don't think i'll solve it for a while because the next puzzle i'm after is 1.1.8. It's been the only gap between 1.1.1 and 1.1.12 since about 6 months ago when i decided it was too hard hahaha but now i think i can get close to or possibly even beat Michael's move count so i'm going to go for it soon.
Haha, that's me and 1.1.19. I can solve it now but I want to use my own wide-triangle three-cycle. I'd feel guilty using Julian's.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 11:40 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Haha, that's me and 1.1.19. I can solve it now but I want to use my own wide-triangle three-cycle. I'd feel guilty using Julian's.
1.1.19 is an extremely good puzzle you should do it! I used a (3,1) alg i found by myself for the wide triangles and using the method i used managed to do away with the last move as well as undoing any set up moves, hence why, if i didn't get parity, i would have beaten the record by so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Brandon, your record of 1.3.6 has been registered. I will fix the bug later.
Yes, of course I,ve solved all of these puzzles. 8-) I just don't participate in the competition. If I beat Michael on all of them, everyone will think I'm cheating. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 5:38 pm 
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Thanks Gelatinbrain, I wasn't expecting you to record the score so quickly!

I feel guilty asking for more puzzles because you've already given us so many :? I'm about to give 1.3.5c a solve and I was wondering what happened to 1.3.5b? It would be nice to have a version of 1.3.5 with super-colors on the pentagon centers.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:33 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Thanks Gelatinbrain, I wasn't expecting you to record the score so quickly!

I feel guilty asking for more puzzles because you've already given us so many :? I'm about to give 1.3.5c a solve and I was wondering what happened to 1.3.5b? It would be nice to have a version of 1.3.5 with super-colors on the pentagon centers.

1.3.5b is intended to be a 10 color version, it's now commented out, because personally I feel it quite ugly, I don't know why but it doesn't fit to my aesthetic. But if you like I will restore it.
I have many idea of new puzzles but unfortunately, have very limited time.
While waiting, why you don't try spherical ones ?
It would not be so difficult for those who's twisted enough to challenge those 4d things. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Hmm, I'm having trouble imagining a 10-color version. Go ahead an leave 1.3.5b out if you don't like it. There are plenty of other puzzles to solve :D I can picture some cool 15 color versions but since you don't have a 15-color set that could be a lot of extra work.

I have tried 6.1.1b several times but I can never get all of the cuts to line up. I figure I could probably solve it once I got in into a regular polygon shape. I'm not sure what you mean by 4D, I have solved the 3^4, 4^4, and 5^4 hypercubes... I don't see any sort of 4D relationship in the spheres.

Perhaps I'll go back and read Doug's comments on them and give them a serious try :)

Many ideas for new puzzles? I'm intrigued, I look forward to them :!: I don't plan on "retiring" so I'm happy to wait.

EDIT: I can't count. I can see 10/20 color versions now :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:28 pm 
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Hey I think I found Helicopter Dodecahedron but it moves differently. Its a 1.1.37. Now if we could have another one of those puzzles but it moves around the edges like the Helicopter cube that would be sweet. It has all of the pieces it needs.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:54 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Yes, of course I,ve solved all of these puzzles. 8-) I just don't participate in the competition. If I beat Michael on all of them, everyone will think I'm cheating. :)


GB, you have solved all of the puzzles? That's exactly my goal! I want to catch up as soon as possible. But it seems that I will be quite busy in the next several months. Don't add new puzzles too fast, otherwise I'll be desperate!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
Hey I think I found Helicopter Dodecahedron but it moves differently. Its a 1.1.37. Now if we could have another one of those puzzles but it moves around the edges like the Helicopter cube that would be sweet. It has all of the pieces it needs.

You want 1.4.1 :wink: It solves basically exactly like the Helicopter cube except that edge orientations are visible which prevents any sort of corner-swap parity. The center triangles are in 5 orbits of 12 pieces each.

I solved it top-down "layer by layer" first placing the corners around a face and then placing center triangles. Setup moves towards the end have an interesting zig-zag pattern to them. Good luck, if you can already solve the Helicopter cube then this thing is a straight-forward extension that shouldn't be any harder.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 10:38 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Darren Grewe wrote:
Hey I think I found Helicopter Dodecahedron but it moves differently. Its a 1.1.37. Now if we could have another one of those puzzles but it moves around the edges like the Helicopter cube that would be sweet. It has all of the pieces it needs.

You want 1.4.1 :wink: It solves basically exactly like the Helicopter cube except that edge orientations are visible which prevents any sort of corner-swap parity. The center triangles are in 5 orbits of 12 pieces each.


No thats not is at all because a Helicopter cube and a Helicopter Dodecahedron would not have rotating edges and centers at all. So what I'm say is that 1.1.37 has the same cuts as the Helicopter Dodecahedron but it turns on its edge just like a Helicopter cube but with no centers or rotating edges.

Do you understand it now because the Helicopter cube and a Helicopter Dodecahedron have no rotating edges or centers.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 12:42 am 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
No thats not is at all because a Helicopter cube and a Helicopter Dodecahedron would not have rotating edges and centers at all. So what I'm say is that 1.1.37 has the same cuts as the Helicopter Dodecahedron but it turns on its edge just like a Helicopter cube but with no centers or rotating edges.

Do you understand it now because the Helicopter cube and a Helicopter Dodecahedron have no rotating edges or centers.

I'm totally confused. A helicopter cube has no rotating edges? Maybe you don't mean by "center" or by "edge" what people normally designate...
Brandon, I meant this by "4D". Your name is on the solvers'list, isn't is?
The I-solved-all thing is of course a bluff. :lol: Although I made it to play myself, I don't have much time.
One day I will do, and this thread will be a great help.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 1:34 am 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Brandon, I meant this by "4D". Your name is on the solvers'list, isn't is?
Ah yes, I understand what you meant now. Solving the 4D hypercubes was a lot less work than some of your puzzles :lol: The 4D hypercube is just a logical extension of a 3x3x3 cube and doesn't require much new twisty puzzle knowledge. Your sphere puzzles seem more like a Square-1 or bandaged cube because not all the twists are possible when the cuts don't align. I spent another hour today playing with 6.1.1b. For most of the time, I worked on trying to build a single color (one big triangle made of 6 smaller triangles of all the same color) but I couldn't even do that. I'm lacking critical insight. Hopefully something will come to me. Maybe Schuma will figure something out and share ideas :wink:

Regarding a dodecahedral analogue of the Helicopter cube, what Darren means is that on the Helicopter cube, the total orientation of the puzzle is not visible and the orientation of an individual edge isn't visible. On 1.4.1, the center pentagons show the orientation of the puzzle and the two thin triangles connected to each other on an edge show the orientation of the edge. If you were to make a Helicopter dodecahedron that didn't show these orientations the cuts would look the same as 1.1.37 (but of course it would be edge-turning instead of face-turning). This would be a tiny bit harder than 1.1.4.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:21 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:

Regarding a dodecahedral analogue of the Helicopter cube, what Darren means is that on the Helicopter cube, the total orientation of the puzzle is not visible and the orientation of an individual edge isn't visible. On 1.4.1, the center pentagons show the orientation of the puzzle and the two thin triangles connected to each other on an edge show the orientation of the edge. If you were to make a Helicopter dodecahedron that didn't show these orientations the cuts would look the same as 1.1.37 (but of course it would be edge-turning instead of face-turning). This would be a tiny bit harder than 1.1.4.


Thank you very much for understanding me.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:28 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
[Screenshot of 1.1.19 with two adjacent Megaminx edges swapped]
Damn!!! I was hoping i wouldn't run into that. Especially considering the move count of 527 is 216 moves less than the record.
Alright i fixed it but because i was rather annoyed i went for the brute force method that caused many pieces to become unsolved and by this stage i didn't care so ended on 763 moves..... ARGHHHH i think i might have to solve this again!

Hi Elwyn,

Here is a parity fix to solve 1.1.19 in 51 moves from the position in your screenshot. Here is the commented fix which can be pasted directly into Gelatinbrain:

/*setup moves*/
C2,E'&2,B',E&2,C'2,
/*(5,1) commutator to cycle 3 half-edges*/
F',I'2,E'&2,I2,F,
B,
F',I'2,E&2,I2,F,
B',
/*undo setup moves*/
C2,E'&2,B,E&2,C'2,
/*setups to move other half-edge into place*/
C,B',H,B,
/*repeat previous cycle*/
C2,E'&2,B',E&2,C'2,
F',I'2,E'&2,I2,F,
B,
F',I'2,E&2,I2,F,
B',
C2,E'&2,B,E&2,C'2,
/*undo setups*/
B',H',B,C',

In my usual handwritten notation, this is:

X = (R2 dl' U' dl R2') (L' UL2' dl' UL2 L, U) (R2 dl' U dl R2')
Y = R U' UR U
Parity fix = X Y X Y'


Last edited by Julian on Tue May 11, 2010 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
1.3.1

OK i know there was a fair bit of discussion about this puzzle back on page 29 however my method seems rather different. Also i think it's probably better considering i used less than 2/3 the moves Julian did.

Congratulations! I saw your new record the same day you recorded it, and my jaw dropped for moment, then I exploded in surprised laughter. 405 moves is astonishing. I must admit that I solved it like 1.2.3 but with a couple of shortcuts, and I didn't think of reduction.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:34 am 
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Gelatinbrain.
Here we go again. I recently updated my Java and now none of the puzzles will open. I get a message asking if i want to block the Java because it is potentially dangerous and i say no... then i get a blank screen apart from the writing down the bottom. Has anyone else gotten the latest Java? Is it just my problem or not?
Julian wrote:
I saw your new record the same day you recorded it, and my jaw dropped for moment, then I exploded in surprised laughter. 405 moves is astonishing.
:) Thanks. That's the reaction i was hoping for. 1.2.3 is one of the next few puzzles i will do hopefully. I have a three cycle for the corners and a 16 move (another commutated conjugate (7,1) thing) three cycle for the thin triangles, though that's a little long and i don't know exactly what to do with the wide ones but i'm hoping they will be easy if i do them just after the centers. I can't check right now though because of above reason. What order did you do it in?
Julian wrote:
Hi Elwyn,

Here is a parity fix to solve 1.1.19 in 51 moves from the position in your screenshot
hahaha much shorter than my 250 move one which involved resolving half the megaminx.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Gelatinbrain.
Here we go again. I recently updated my Java and now none of the puzzles will open. I get a message asking if i want to block the Java because it is potentially dangerous and i say no... then i get a blank screen apart from the writing down the bottom. Has anyone else gotten the latest Java? Is it just my problem or not?

I tested the latest java runtime. For me there's no problem at all. Let me know the exact version of your JAVA runtime. It's shown at the top of the JAVA console when you launch the applet, typically like this:
Java Plug-in 1.6.0_20
Utilisation de la version JRE 1.6.0_20-b02 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
Répertoire d'accueil de l'utilisateur = C:\Documents and Settings\User


Do you have the same problem with other applets? For example, how about this one?

It would also be helpful if you could PM me screenshots and messages on the java console when it failed.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Gelatinbrain, I had no idea JOGL had a public test available! I have been trying to figure out how to troubleshoot JOGL. This was enough for me to get a local copy of your applet working on my Linux x86_64 machine 8-). I have been keeping a Windows VM around only for your applet and I think I can finally use it natively on my Linux machines.

To get the copy working locally I had to pull down all of your Jar files in joglx/ and edit your HTML page to fix paths as well as edit joglx/jogl-core.jnlp to fix paths.

The good news though is that I think the only thing you need to do is download:
http://download.java.net/media/gluegen/ ... -amd64.jar
http://download.java.net/media/jogl/jsr ... -amd64.jar
http://download.java.net/media/jogl/jsr ... -amd64.jar

And put these three files in:
http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/Applets/Magic%20Polyhedra/joglx/

Your jogl-core.jnlp is already correct so I'm pretty sure it will just start working for me.

This is what my local joglx directory looks like with the applet working:
Code:
bmenrigh@gamma ~/public_html/gb_test/joglx $ ls
applet-launcher.jar                  jogl-natives-windows-i586.jar
gluegen-rt-natives-linux-amd64.jar   jogl.all.jar
gluegen-rt-natives-windows-i586.jar  nativewindow-natives-linux-amd64.jar
gluegen-rt.jar                       nativewindow-natives-windows-i586.jar
jogl-core.jnlp                       nativewindow.all.jar
jogl-natives-linux-amd64.jar         polyhedra.jar

I know you're really busy so if there is anything I can help you troubleshoot don't hesitate to contact me via email or PM :D

I am running:
Code:
Linux gamma 2.6.33-gentoo-r1 #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Apr 14 00:59:55 UTC 2010 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

mozilla-firefox-3.6.3

sun-jre-bin-1.6.0.20

Elwyn, have you tried clearing your local Java applet cache? I have had trouble with the local cache getting out of sync with the online applet silently failing. You can clear it through the Java control panel applet (ost likely located at c:\windows\system32\javacpl.cpl on your machine). You might also try clearing your browser cache.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:18 pm 
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Center wedges of 1.1.26 & 1.1.31-1.1.34
Elwyn wrote:
Slice1, slice2, slice1, face, slice1 slice2 slice1 opposite face slice1 slice2 slice1 first face slice1 slice2 slice1 opposite face.
Found it, thanks!
Elwyn wrote:
Now my problem is i don't know how to do the keystone pieces :roll:
1.1.26 & 1.1.31 keystone pieces non-pure: ((slice1 slice2 slice1, face1), face2)

1.1.33 keystone pieces non-pure: ((face1 face2 face1, slice1), slice2)


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
1.2.3 is one of the next few puzzles i will do hopefully. I have a three cycle for the corners and a 16 move (another commutated conjugate (7,1) thing) three cycle for the thin triangles, though that's a little long and i don't know exactly what to do with the wide ones but i'm hoping they will be easy if i do them just after the centers. I can't check right now though because of above reason. What order did you do it in?
Wide triangles first (intuitive block-building as far as possible then tiny cycles), then corners, centers, and finally thin triangles.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:02 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
I tested the latest java runtime. For me there's no problem at all. Let me know the exact version of your JAVA runtime. It's shown at the top of the JAVA console when you launch the applet, typically like this:
Java Plug-in 1.6.0_20
Utilisation de la version JRE 1.6.0_20-b02 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
Répertoire d'accueil de l'utilisateur = C:\Documents and Settings\User


Do you have the same problem with other applets? For example, how about this one?

It would also be helpful if you could PM me screenshots and messages on the java console when it failed.
Well Brandon's suggestion seems to have fixed it :) But anyway "Java Plug-in 1.6.0_20
Using JRE version 1.6.0_20-b02 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
User home directory = C:\Documents and Settings\" just like yours and yes i was also having problems with the other applet you linked me to. As for a screen shot i didn't have the java console open when it was failing so i can't tell you what was going on there sorry however i can tell you that on my screen the applet just didn't show up at all.
bmenrigh wrote:
Elwyn, have you tried clearing your local Java applet cache? I have had trouble with the local cache getting out of sync with the online applet silently failing. You can clear it through the Java control panel applet (ost likely located at c:\windows\system32\javacpl.cpl on your machine). You might also try clearing your browser cache.
Hahaha yes that helped thank you. I did both.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:14 pm 
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Julian wrote:
Elwyn wrote:
Now my problem is i don't know how to do the keystone pieces

1.1.26 & 1.1.31 keystone pieces non-pure: ((slice1 slice2 slice1, face1), face2)

1.1.33 keystone pieces non-pure: ((face1 face2 face1, slice1), slice2)
I'll have a look for that first one, thanks, but i forgot to mention i have a (3,1) impure for the 1.1.32/33 (they have opposite names in the records page for some reason) keystones/triangles so i don't really need that (4,1) :).
Julian wrote:
Wide triangles first (intuitive block-building as far as possible then tiny cycles), then corners, centers, and finally thin triangles.
:o centers second last! That's a much better idea, found it now. On another note how short is your small triangles pure cycle? if it's much shorter then my 16 move one i'll look around for it to try and get close to your score.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:11 am 
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(1.2.3)
Elwyn wrote:
Julian wrote:
Wide triangles first (intuitive block-building as far as possible then tiny cycles), then corners, centers, and finally thin triangles.
:o centers second last! That's a much better idea, found it now. On another note how short is your small triangles pure cycle? if it's much shorter then my 16 move one i'll look around for it to try and get close to your score.
Yeah that is a much better method. I would have solved this centers then corners then wide triangles then thin triangles. I can't imagine how long that would have taken.

For the wide triangles, my 3-cycle is (1,1). My corners routine is ((1,1),1) pure. Centers is ((1,1), 1). So far for the thin triangles I have a easyish (setup + (1,1) + setup', 1) routine for 14 total moves.

Those thin triangles sure look like they can be isolated in fewer...

EDIT: I found a few more (6,1) pure cycles for the thin triangles before I revisited the one above. By leaving the last move off of the (1,1) part I was able to get the whole cycle down to (5,1) pure. The same trick works for my centers routine, making it (3,1).

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:33 am 
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1.2.3
Elwyn wrote:
On another note how short is your small triangles pure cycle? if it's much shorter then my 16 move one i'll look around for it to try and get close to your score.
I solve the small triangles pure with a (5,1) commutator -- just like the one Brandon found above. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:44 am 
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Julian wrote:
pure with a (5,1) commutator -- just like the one Brandon found above.
Well i can't find that for some reason and i don't think i will. I did find a (3,3) which is the same amount of moves so i'll just go with it :)

I'm really starting to like these 1.2.X guys, even though i have only solved one hahaha.

I now also have a method for 1.2.6 which is centers (super easy, around 10 moves all up) small triangles impure (3,1) wide triangles pure (3,1). Anyone else have any thoughts on it? it looks like setups will be hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:17 pm 
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I updated my applet and got this. :?
Attachment:
avertissement.gif
avertissement.gif [ 11.7 KiB | Viewed 5454 times ]
It looks like the same situation Elwin talked about. But in my case, clearling cache makes no effect. And strange thing is, I didn't touch JOGL as this message says, but only my code.

If you encounter the same message, click "no".
You can continue without any problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
Hey I think I found Helicopter Dodecahedron but it moves differently. Its a 1.1.37. Now if we could have another one of those puzzles but it moves around the edges like the Helicopter cube that would be sweet. It has all of the pieces it needs.

You must mean something like this:
Image
By raising face center coorinates slightly, you can get planar cuts.
I think this is physically realisable, although I no nothing about internal puzzle mechanisms. At least it looks simpler than Big chop...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:19 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Darren Grewe wrote:
Hey I think I found Helicopter Dodecahedron but it moves differently. Its a 1.1.37. Now if we could have another one of those puzzles but it moves around the edges like the Helicopter cube that would be sweet. It has all of the pieces it needs.

You must mean something like this:
Image
By raising face center coorinates slightly, you can get planar cuts.
I think this is physically realisable, although I no nothing about internal puzzle mechanisms. At least it looks simpler than Big chop...


Thanks I love it a lot. I was wondering if you could the name from a 1.4.8. to a Helicopter Dodecahedron.

_________________
Darren & Traiphum's Dual Helicoptrahedron
X-TownCuber wrote:
Are my eyes deceiving me, or is this the coolest puzzle ever?


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