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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:36 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
1.1.27...
Elwyn wrote:
Using your hints, which almost went beyond hints but i'm not complaining hahaha, i figured out your 30 move cycle for the "circle bitten" trapezoids however (and this could just be impatience and i'll edit this if i find it) i can't find a good Impure, short (or pure for that matter) cycle for the circle pieces..... am i missing something obvious?
The circle pieces can be cycled non-pure in (6,1); bitten pieces and corners move too. It's a useful algo to find because it helps with 1.1.25. But as a least moves fan you'll probably want to solve the trapezoid piece pairs with (4,1) commutators, just as with 1.1.4-1.1.6; then you'll need to tweak your new algo to solve the circle pieces pure in 30 moves.
Edit: The circle pieces of 1.1.27 can be cycled pure with (8,1) commutators; for hints see lower down this page.

1.1.26 = 1.1.5, then solve all the circle pieces with (14,1) commutators.
Edit: The corner/keystone circle pieces can be solved non-pure with the same (8,1) commutators as cycling the circle pieces of 1.1.27 pure; adding a suitable setup and undo move gives (10,1) commutators that cycle the edge/wedge circle pieces pure.

1.1.28 = super-1.1.8, then solve the corner-circle (30% pizza slice) pieces with (6,1) commutators.

Last edited by Julian on Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:46 pm

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: My House
I just solved the Rex cube! I decided to try it after I tried to solve it with Door's instructions last time. I sort of made up my own method this time but I used Door's algorithms, so thank you Door!

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:22 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
bmenrigh wrote:
gelatinbrain added some new circle cubes! I was solving 3.1.15 thinking "how is this different than 3.1.7?". Then I realized... So evil, I love it.

Hmmm... I just moved and my new job has given me a lap top but I don't have admin rights and can't install Java and it will be sometime before I have access to my personal PC again. I know 3.1.7 is the typical circle 3x3x3 but what exactly is 3.1.15? Is it the same as this puzzle?

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16341

Or is the inner circle still "bandaged" to something? I'm guessing maybe two opposite face centers can't rotate relative to each other. Is there any way this could be constructed as a physical puzzle?

I know 3.1.7 is bacically a Super 3x3x3 which reveals the face center orientation. Does 3.1.15 boil down to the same thing? Arg... I can't play with the app at the moment and I so want to know what evil is afoot here.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:37 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
bmenrigh wrote:
merlintocs wrote:

Any ideas?

Those "D shaped" pieces are attached to the yellow center showing its orientation. If you rotate the orientation of the yellow center 180 degrees you'll be solved.

Are you talking about 3.1.7 or 3.1.15 here? In 3.1.15 it appears a slice move would seperate the yellow face center from some of those "D shaped" pieces.
bmenrigh wrote:
Almost all the circle-polyhedra are "super" in that you can see the orientations of the centers.

If that is true for 3.1.15 I'm not seeing it at the moment but as above I'm still not sure exactly how 3.1.15 works.

Help...
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:23 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Julian wrote:
1.1.27...
Elwyn wrote:
I can't find a good Impure, short (or pure for that matter) cycle for the circle pieces..... am i missing something obvious?
The circle pieces can be cycled non-pure in (6,1); bitten pieces and corners move too. It's a useful algo to find because it helps with 1.1.25. But as a least moves fan you'll probably want to solve the trapezoid piece pairs with (4,1) commutators, just as with 1.1.4-1.1.6; then you'll need to tweak your new algo to solve the circle pieces pure in 30 moves.
I suppose the short answer would have been yes hahaha. It was pretty late when i posted that perhaps i was tiered but today tweaking the 30 move alg seemed a lot easyer and i got it with the first move i tried
I'll have a look for the impure (6,1) cycle later for now i think i will go solve 1.1.28
wwwmwww wrote:
I'm still not sure exactly how 3.1.15 works.

Help...
Join the club I think the fact that Michael took 4:43 and 206 moves on 3.1.15 compared to 00:38 and 48 moves on 3.1.7 is a good indication of how diferent they are. The cube Merlintocs was asking about was 3.1.7 and yes a slice move on 3.1.15 would seperate the yellow face center from some of those "D shaped" pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:54 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
wwwmwww wrote:
Are you talking about 3.1.7 or 3.1.15 here? In 3.1.15 it appears a slice move would seperate the yellow face center from some of those "D shaped" pieces.
bmenrigh wrote:
Almost all the circle-polyhedra are "super" in that you can see the orientations of the centers.

If that is true for 3.1.15 I'm not seeing it at the moment but as above I'm still not sure exactly how 3.1.15 works.

Help...
Carl

Hi Carl, all,

Let me start with a few qualifying statements. There are some phenomenal solvers on this thread. I am not one of them. I'm a complete amateur trying to grasp fleeting moments of insight while some of the solvers here could mumble amazing solutions to these puzzles in their sleep.

Also, I have not solved 3.1.15 or 3.1.16. I have solved 3.1.7-14 and 3.1.17-20 and I have put a few hours of turning and plenty of thought on 3.1.15 so I'll share what I know.

Regarding super-pieces and circle cubes in general, I should describe better what I mean by my previous statements. If you follow the strict definition of a super-group and therefore a super-cube, every piece must be unique and have visible orientation. That is, no two pieces could be swapped or have their orientation changed and the puzzle still be solved. Following this definition, I think only 3.1.7 is a true super-cube. Most of the other circle cubes have some pieces with extra visible orientation but not every piece is "super". I believe the only circle cubes with no super pieces are 3.1.8 and 3.1.9.

wwwmwww wrote:
I know 3.1.7 is the typical circle 3x3x3 but what exactly is 3.1.15? Is it the same as this puzzle?

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16341

Or is the inner circle still "bandaged" to something? I'm guessing maybe two opposite face centers can't rotate relative to each other. Is there any way this could be constructed as a physical puzzle?

I know 3.1.7 is bacically a Super 3x3x3 which reveals the face center orientation. Does 3.1.15 boil down to the same thing? Arg... I can't play with the app at the moment and I so want to know what evil is afoot here.

The puzzle in the link you provided looks pretty similar to 3.1.15 but there are clearly some differences. I also don't feel there is any "bandaging" going on in 3.1.15 (but it seems there are some missing inner 5x5x5 layers). From my twisting and playing with 3.1.15 I believe the "D" pieces are the sides of virtual/invisible 5x5x5 "+" centers. To clarify, just as on the Crazy 4x4x4 II (3.1.10) the sliver pieces sliced out of the outer edges by the circle are actually attached to invisible center pieces on the adjacent side, I think the "D" pieces on 3.1.15 are attached to invisible centers on the adjacent side. This means that if the puzzle is solved, the 4 center pieces on the white face show up as the Green/Red/Blue/Orange "D" pieces on along the top edge of those sides that touche the white side.

What do I mean by "+" centers of a 5x5x5? Basically the "D" pieces appear to behave as the 4 non-corner center pieces on a normal 5x5x5 except that you can't turn the inner slice layers. You can turn the center slice layers and the outer layers but the slice layers for each side don't appear to exist. Because the side slice layers don't exist neither do the "x" (corner) centers of the 5x5x5. Also, it makes manipulating the "+" centers a bit more work because you don't have those slice layers to move them. You only have the center slice layers and the outer layers.

Treating the "D" pieces as 5x5x5 centers stickered as described above and moving them in this broken 3x3x3/5x5x5 manner it is easy to solve all of them except the last two. You can end up with two of the + centers on the last face swapped and I don't yet know how to fix this. I just hit scramble and start over.

I'll also point out that from the solved state of the 3.1.15 puzzle if you do (U (R L U2 'R 'L)) x 2 it will appear as though the "D" pieces are just super stickers attached to the center. Actually what happened is that (U (R L U2 'R 'L)) x 2 moved the + centers as well as the 3x3x3 center all (as a group) in a 180. This is why you can move the center slice to "separate" the "D" pieces from the center.

A few posts back I speculated that some of the other circle-cubes had pieces that also behaved like this but I was mostly wrong. Having solved 3.1.17-20 I can say 3.1.15 may share something with 3.1.16 but is otherwise mostly unique. I haven't put much time into 3.1.16 but it seems the outer sliver pieces inside the circle on 3.1.16 may also behave like virtual center pieces on a larger "inner" cube.

I'm pretty sure I could solve 3.1.15 by getting lucky placing the last two virtual 5x5x5 + centers and then tediously placing the inner 3x3x3 edges and then solving the outer 3x3x3. I don't feel comfortable doing this though. I don't like solving by getting lucky and I don't like solving a puzzle I don't fully understand.

If I'm way off track or completely wrong with this post feel free to correct me (Michael?). I'd love to hear other's thoughts and insights too.

Brandon

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:49 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Turns out my "pure" three cycle for the circle piecees of 1.1.27 is actualy an anoying 5 cycle that just looks like a three cycle if you apply it to a solved puzzle. Mine sounds the same as Julians as it is a ((6,1),1) or (14,1) comutator and for the (6,1) part the 6 is turns of three ajacent faces and the 1 is a slice move so i wonder if his is the same 5 cycle that just looks like a three cycle but i doubt it concidering it is Julian i'm talking about and it doesn't seem like the kind of mistake he would make. So now i'm wondering what is different about our algs.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:11 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
As if the face-turning-icosahedron (2.1.1) wasn't hard enough, gelatinbrain has just given us a circle FTI (2.1.6)! With only 5 solvers for 2.1.1 and the fastest time above an hour, 2.1.6 must be a beast!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:03 am

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 7:13 pm
Location: Bruxelles, Belgium
wwwmwww wrote:
I can't play with the app at the moment and I so want to know what evil is afoot here.

With this, you dont need JAVA, but it's only for Windows. I just uploaded the latest version. Choose a puzzle from the menu or drag&drop the file with the extention ".zzz".

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:47 am

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Just played with 3.1.15 a tad. It looks like the circle pieces are bandaged to the circle piece on the opposite side of the cube. If you scramble the cube, you'll see that every circle piece is opposite the same color that it started opposite of.

 Attachments: 3.1.15.png [ 21.9 KiB | Viewed 6285 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:11 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Just played with 3.1.15 a tad. It looks like the circle pieces are bandaged to the circle piece on the opposite side of the cube. If you scramble the cube, you'll see that every circle piece is opposite the same color that it started opposite of.

Yeah those are edge pieces of an inner 3x3x3 cube. They are easy to place but they make placing the edge pieces in the outer shell a bit tricky. PLL algs that use the middle slice for movement generally don't move those inner edges but do move the outer ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:28 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
Elwyn wrote:
Turns out my "pure" three cycle for the circle piecees of 1.1.27 is actualy an anoying 5 cycle that just looks like a three cycle if you apply it to a solved puzzle. Mine sounds the same as Julians as it is a ((6,1),1) or (14,1) comutator and for the (6,1) part the 6 is turns of three ajacent faces and the 1 is a slice move so i wonder if his is the same 5 cycle that just looks like a three cycle but i doubt it concidering it is Julian i'm talking about and it doesn't seem like the kind of mistake he would make. So now i'm wondering what is different about our algs.
Aw shucks! I've been through the same thing with other puzzles. I've even gone so far as to take a screenshot from a scrambled position, line it up exactly with the live Gelatinbrain applet, and do an algo 3 times in a row, clicking back and forth to make sure that only 3 pieces move. Anyone else want to confess to that?

It's very easy to accidentally get a 5-cycle when trying to solve the circle pieces of 1.1.27. But it is definitely possible to get a pure 3-cycle with a ((6,1),1) algo. The 7th, 14th, 16th, and 23rd moves must be 144 degree slices in a certain direction; no other type of turn will work, I think. Does that help?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:39 pm

Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:06 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
Sometimes I verify a 3-cycle algorithm by executing it three times, too.

Check out the new circle icosahedron, 2.1.6. Gelatin brain, you are assigning too much homework. Are you a professor?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:41 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Hmmmm now i have a pure three cycle that is a (14,3) comutator which is obviously 34 moves. I don't want to solve it with that because i know those 4 moves will add up to about 120 extra moves. How anoying! I'm currently doing something along the lines of F U R U' R' F' u2' F R U R' U' F' u2 (some move but so far no luck unless i use three) then the inverse. How similar is that to yours?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:14 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
Elwyn wrote:
Hmmmm now i have a pure three cycle that is a (14,3) comutator which is obviously 34 moves. I don't want to solve it with that because i know those 4 moves will add up to about 120 extra moves. How anoying! I'm currently doing something along the lines of F U R U' R' F' u2' F R U R' U' F' u2 (some move but so far no luck unless i use three) then the inverse. How similar is that to yours?
Try swapping the u2' and u2. The swapped piece is still on the same face, so at first glance it looks like the 15th move, another slice move, isn't doing anything.

@schuma: 2.1.6 is actually okay. Eventually I'll solve it exactly like 2.1.1, then I'll cycle the circles (8,1) pure at the end. Just like isolating a 2-color arrow edge of 2.1.1 in 6 moves, with an extra setup and undo move to get rid of the arrow and leave only a swapped circle piece of 2.1.6 after 8 moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:12 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
gelatinbrain wrote:
With this, you dont need JAVA, but it's only for Windows. I just uploaded the latest version. Choose a puzzle from the menu or drag&drop the file with the extention ".zzz".

Thanks!!!

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:46 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Julian wrote:
Try swapping the u2' and u2. The swapped piece is still on the same face, so at first glance it looks like the 15th move, another slice move, isn't doing anything.

well i gave up and am now half way through solving it. i finished everything but the circle piecs in 730 moves which is close to your reccord for 1.1.6 but i think i will just keep going with my 34 move alg because i'm getting used to the setups and my computer freaks out if i try to open two puzzles at once and freezes them both so i can't really look for a new alg without loosing an hours work of solving so i'll just take the extra 120 moves. opps i forgot to submit this post and now i'm done hahahaha could have been better but i finaly solved it. 1:49:27 and 1779 moves if you can't see it. So i beat the current reccord by almost 4000 moves hahahaha but i know Sjoerd is just going for most puzzles solved.

 Attachments: done.gif [ 83.65 KiB | Viewed 6201 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:45 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Julian wrote:
Try swapping the u2' and u2. The swapped piece is still on the same face, so at first glance it looks like the 15th move, another slice move, isn't doing anything.
That'd be right now i find a 30 move alg. Mine cycles two pieces on the U face and one one the UR face (using your notation) is this what yours does or does it cycle on three different faces because i feel that would make stups easier although perhaps two pieces on one face would work well especialy if you utilised slice setups and it sure would make getting the last two (or any two pieces that are on eachothers face) nice and easy.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:11 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Well I just solved 3.1.15 and I did it through intuition rather than thinking about it in terms of another puzzle. The "D" pieces are attached to each other like the hidden edges are just as GuiltyBystander said. I can get a much better time and probably half the move-count with a bit of work. If I figure out what 3.1.15 "is" I'll be sure to share my finding here.

I hate solving puzzles I don't understand

EDIT: Sorry to everybody that is getting frustrated with my constant posts and speculation about 3.1.15 Hopefully this will be last.

3.1.15 is a 5x5x5 cube except:

• The + centers are "super" and the extra color is on the adjacent face
• The x centers don't exist/are invisible
• The slice layers can't be turned/don't exist (the middle layer for each axis is there though)
• Because the slice layers can't be turned wing-edge pieces and + center pieces stay paired
• The sides of wing-edge pieces are still visible the same way as in the circle 2x2x2

To demonstrate, here is the same scramble on a 5x5x5, super 5x5x5, and 3.1.15:
Attachment:

5x5x5scramble.png [ 17.02 KiB | Viewed 6165 times ]

Attachment:

super5x5x5scramble.png [ 21.31 KiB | Viewed 6165 times ]

Attachment:

3.1.15scramble.png [ 17.32 KiB | Viewed 6165 times ]

You can see in the 5x5x5 scrambles that it isn't possible to separate the wing-edge pieces from each other or the + centers paired across the cube. You can't see the "sides" of the wing-edge pieces in the 5x5x5 scrambles but if you keep track of the colors carefully you'll see how the circle wedge piece colors match the wing-edges nicely.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:09 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Another solve another fewest moves reccord 1.1.24
after i solved it i looked back to when Schuma and Sjoerd solved it and they were talking about "pairing" circle pieces with edges???? All i did was solve it like 1.1.2 with hidden edges then cycled the other circle pieces with a pure 3 cycle. It took 775 moves which beats the current reccord by around 200 moves just three more circle dodecahedrons left but concidering i can't solve 1.1.8 1.1.28 isn't going to happen soon and i can't get the circle starminx either but i have a method for 1.1.25 although i'm almost certain my method can't beat Julians reccord so i might look for a better one. Would you mind telling me just the steps of yours Julian so i can see if it is like mine? Mine is corners, edges, circle edges (the ones with a round side) with a 10 move alg then the starminx triangles with a 22 move pure alg.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:18 pm

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:41 am
Location: Spijkenisse, the Netherlands
I solved the icosahedral duals of the starminx, starminx with corners and master pentultimate after figuring out a corner-turning alg (50 moves) and needed a new genre.
So I went and figured out all necessary algorithms for 3.3.2, and solved it. I can use all the same algs for 3.3.3, but IÂ´m not in the mood for another puzzle right now. 3.3.4 is another story though.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:22 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
Elwyn wrote:
1.1.25 [...] Would you mind telling me just the steps of yours Julian so i can see if it is like mine? Mine is corners, edges, circle edges (the ones with a round side) with a 10 move alg then the starminx triangles with a 22 move pure alg.
My method for 1.1.25 is similar to yours: corners and edges like a Pyraminx Crystal, then center pentagons (3,1), wedges (4,1), and finally triangles (6,1).

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:36 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
1.1.27
Elwyn wrote:
That'd be right now i find a 30 move alg. Mine cycles two pieces on the U face and one one the UR face (using your notation) is this what yours does or does it cycle on three different faces because i feel that would make stups easier although perhaps two pieces on one face would work well especialy if you utilised slice setups and it sure would make getting the last two (or any two pieces that are on eachothers face) nice and easy.
Depending on the degree of the 15th and 30th moves, my algo swaps two circle pieces of U and one of UR or B or BL or L. I don't know how to swap circles from 3 different faces in a good number of moves yet. A slice move would be used a lot more often than a face move as the last setup move to position the 2nd circle piece on the same face as the 1st. There would be quite a lot of flexibility when setting up the 3rd piece into one of 8 possible places, allowing for the mirror version of the algo too.

Edit: I've now found a ((4,1),1) = (10,1) pure algo for 1.1.27 circle pieces on 3 different faces. The 4 are all slice moves and the other moves are regular moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:49 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Julian wrote:
I've now found a ((4,1),1) = (10,1) pure algo for 1.1.27 circle pieces on 3 different faces. The 4 are all slice moves and the other moves are regular moves.
Hahaha why didn't i find that one myself. If it is the same one i just found, which i'd say it is, it is just my pure pyraminx crystal edge cycle (which isn't so pure on this puzzle) with one setup move and then the inverse. looks like i'll have to resolve 1.1.27 at some point now.
Julian wrote:
My method for 1.1.25 is similar to yours: corners and edges like a Pyraminx Crystal, then center pentagons (3,1), wedges (4,1), and finally triangles (6,1).
very similar (i forgot to mention the centers oops) the only difference is you have a (6,1) alg for the triangles and i have a (10,1) alg
I also forgot to mention that the three cycle i used for the circle pyraminx crystal (1.1.24) swaps two pieces on one face and one on another and it was actualy very easy to use.

Edit:
Julian wrote:
1.1.26 = 1.1.5, then solve all the circle pieces with (14,1) commutators.
I just found two different (10,3) comutators (one for each type of circle piece) so it's only a matter of time before you find an even shorter one

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3x3x3 :20.7 seconds, 5x5x5 2:33, gigaminx 16:40, 7x7x7 9:48, pyraminx crystal 3:42

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:45 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
Elwyn wrote:
Julian wrote:
1.1.26 = 1.1.5, then solve all the circle pieces with (14,1) commutators.
I just found two different (10,3) comutators (one for each type of circle piece) so it's only a matter of time before you find an even shorter one
Only slightly shorter. My (10,1) algo for 1.1.27 also cycles the wedges of 1.1.26 non-pure (adjacent keystone pieces move too). I can't find shorter than (12,1) to cycle the keystone pieces pure.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:25 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Julian wrote:
Only slightly shorter. My (10,1) algo for 1.1.27 also cycles the wedges of 1.1.26 non-pure (adjacent keystone pieces move too). I can't find shorter than (12,1) to cycle the keystone pieces pure.
Yes i was thinking the same thing last night. So we both would cycle the wedges (or i think i might do keystones) with a (10,1) 22 moves and the remaining circle pieces in either (12,1) or (10,3) both are 26 moves hahaha. Either way it's going to take a lot of moves. I think i might try it this afternoon when i get home.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:39 pm

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:41 am
Location: Spijkenisse, the Netherlands
I spent about 3,5 hours on this:
Attachment:

1.4.4 uitleg.JPG [ 67.77 KiB | Viewed 6311 times ]

Order of solving:
1-pieces: like helicopter cube. There is one parity issue at the very beginning concerning the 2-pieces where it is impossible to solve the puzzle. To prevent this you need to first solve the corners of one face, try to get the 2-pieces right, and if not, change the location of the face on the dodecahedron.
2-pieces: also like helicopter cube
3-pieces: simple A B A' B' moves where edges A and B are 2 edges apart on the same face.
4-pieces: also simple C D C' D' moves where edges C and D are 2 edges apart but on different faces. When all are solved, orient where nessicary with a ((4,1),1)commutator (I think)
5- and 6-pieces: with two separate 4-piece cycles (I believe)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:31 am

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:41 am
Location: Spijkenisse, the Netherlands
Gelatinbrain just uploaded a circle-kilominx and a combination of pentultimate and circle kilominx. Solved the circle kilominx.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:41 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Circle kilominx was fun. I asume 1.1.30 is just 1.1.8 but the edges are hidden but i could be mistaken. I didn't get around to the circle starminx today. Perhaps some other time.
All these new puzzles are making it harder for me to reach my goal of finishing off all of 1.1.x hahahaha but that is definatly not a complaint.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:50 am

Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:06 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
I would rather consider 1.1.30 as a subset of 1.1.28, which is in turn, a circle 1.1.8.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:23 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
1.1.30 = corners like Kilominx + circle pieces non-pure like wide triangles of 1.1.8 (3,1) + bitten pieces pure (3,3).

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:56 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
Elwyn wrote:
Another solve another fewest moves reccord 1.1.24
All i did was solve it like 1.1.2 with hidden edges then cycled the other circle pieces with a pure 3 cycle.
Clever to see the circle 1.1.2 hidden in what looks like a circle 1.1.3! Sometime I will redo 1.1.24 this way. With hindsight, it is funny to look back at the tortuous way I was trying to finish off the corners without affecting the Megaminx edges, not realizing they were Megaminx edges.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:27 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Re-solving 1.1.27 and well i'm starting to wish i was only solving 1.1.6 because 1. i have a lot of boring three cycles ahead of me and 2. if i was i would be finished and would now have the fewest moves reccord for that puzzle. I'm at 704 moves and i have 53 more circle pieces left to solve..... i think i'll take a break.

 Attachments: Hmm.jpg [ 85.95 KiB | Viewed 6220 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:39 am

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:45 am
Location: New Zealand
Solving 1.4.4 today, got to the point where I had(Using Sjoerd's Piece numbering above) about 20-30 of piece 5 and 6 left, and about 10-15 of piece 4, and then my computer turned off I might try again in a few weeks. At least I figured out some useful algorithms!

-Mark-

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:59 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Well those 53 circle pieces managed to take me 590 moves for a total movecount of 1294. If Julian finds some crazy short alg then comes along and thrashes that i will be pretty annoyed

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:20 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
1.1.27...
Elwyn wrote:
Well those 53 circle pieces managed to take me 590 moves for a total movecount of 1294. If Julian finds some crazy short alg then comes along and thrashes that i will be pretty annoyed
I solved the 1.1.6 pieces in 716 moves, then the circle pieces using (8,1) commutators in 481 moves, for a total of 1197.

Hint: How could you shorten the inner (4,1) to (3,1)?
Bonus: As with the slightly longer algo, the shorter one is useful for 1.1.26 too.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:19 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
I figured I'd try out the Dogic's today. I started with the 12-color and it took me 18 minutes to devise a solution and solve which I'm pretty happy about. I went on to solve the other color variations but on the custom color versions I ran into a tip/corner 3-cycle issue. It took me about 1000 turns of trying random things before I devised a three cycle that does this:
Attachment:

dogic_3_cycle.png [ 25.85 KiB | Viewed 6133 times ]

Notice the top 5 edges that meet at a point have a 3-cycle in 3 of the edges. The 3-cycle I came up with is 29 moves and it isn't based on good solving principles. I found it through trying random things. The fact that it does a 3-cycle is really just a lucky side-effect of mixing up pieces and then re-placing them in a specific order.

So what do you guys do in this situation? I feel like doing this is something I'm going to need to really understand if I'm going to solve 2.2.9 or 2.2.10 I'd also like to hear about the sorts of tricks and techniques for how you guys would go about figuring out how to do this 3-cycle. I think the thing that gets me about this is that the tip pieces are moved in pairs.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:34 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
@Brandon That is a pretty long alg. I have one that does something very similar at 12 moves but even that isn't really needed because the base 8 move cycle that swaps one piece on one corner and two on an adjacent corner makes it nice and easy to finish the last two corner groups together. This is also usefull if you get the parity because you just put an identicle piece in one of the spots. The first one is just the shorter one with 2 setup moves.
Attachment:

3 cycle 1.jpg [ 83.51 KiB | Viewed 6127 times ]
Attachment:

3 cycle 2.jpg [ 85.07 KiB | Viewed 6127 times ]

As for how i found these thay are basicly just a slightly modified 3 cycle of center pieces i use for the last two faces of a 7x7x7 (though it can be used for all cubes from 4x4x4 up aswell as the higher order minxs and i think you will find 2.2.10 to pretty much be a 4x4x4minx especialy the 12 colour form).
so the alg if you want it is this
/*000000*/F'&2,
/*000001*/B',
/*000002*/C&2,
/*000003*/B,
/*000004*/F&2,
/*000005*/B',
/*000006*/C'&2,
/*000007*/B,

This sure is a big group of very similar puzzles. I still have 5 more of them to go but they get a bit boring if you try to do them all.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:25 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Thanks for your insight Elwyn. I know this sequence for cycling centers on big cubes well. I'm really dismayed I didn't see that it could be used on the Dogic and Dogic-like puzzles. This is a must-know sequence for the Circle Cubes too (I'm actually quite surprised that you haven't solved more of those).

Regarding 2.2.10 being a 4x4x4 Minx, I see what you mean. Quite and interesting puzzle. My intuition tells me those 2-color edge/center pieces can't be put in the correct position but with wrong orientation but I'm concerned I'm wrong and I'm going to hit an orientation parity. I suppose I'll have to solve it to find out. The non-12-color Dogic variations were just plain annoying so I'm not looking forward to them on the other puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:31 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
bmenrigh wrote:
The non-12-color Dogic variations were just plain annoying so I'm not looking forward to them on the other puzzles.
yes they are a little anoying but they get better the more you do as you learn the colour scheme. The thing i find most annoying about these puzzles is a suprisingly small detail, The colour scheme for the 12 colour ones isn't the same as the dodecahedral puzzles. This i find confusing because i'm so used to the other colour scheme. I even use it on my phisical megaminx, gigaminx and obviously pyraminx crystal. I know this isn't very important but if GELATINBRAIN could change it i would be very happy.
I havn't solved the circle cubes because i'm lazy and don't like doing super centers on big cubes.... that and i find some of the more recent ones terribly confusing.
bmenrigh wrote:
My intuition tells me those 2-color edge/center pieces can't be put in the correct position but with wrong orientation but I'm concerned I'm wrong and I'm going to hit an orientation parity.
the 2 colour pieces solve just like the wing edges of a gigaminx... there might be a 4x4x4 like orientation parity due to no center edge but i didn't get it when i solved it.
Julian wrote:
Hint: How could you shorten the inner (4,1) to (3,1)?
(3,1).... i have no idea, infact i don't know any (3,1) commutators. You mentioned using one for the centers of starminx like puzzles before and i checked and i use a (4,1).... I also looked for a way to shorten this one after i read this but it just doesn't work

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:50 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
The gigaminx is a relatively easy puzzle compared to some on gelatinbrain however i feel it is also a very fun puzzle. I know that virtualy anyone reading this topic can solve it but i like this puzzle and the method i use for it so much that i'm going to outline the basic steps of what i think is the best gigaminx method out there.

1. Get 6 centers solved all on one half of the puzzle. Easy and fast and if your careful it should take less than 150 moves.
Attachment:

gigaminx1.jpg [ 86.6 KiB | Viewed 6177 times ]
2. Pair up all the edges of the bottom face (I call white the bottom and yellow the top so on mine all the edges with white on them) and put them into place. Doing this now whilst the top centers aren't done means you can be very eficient about this using mainly the top layer slice to pair them.
Attachment:

gigaminx2.jpg [ 84.07 KiB | Viewed 6177 times ]
3. Do the same thing for the next 5 edges and place them F2L style with their corners
Attachment:

gigaminx3.jpg [ 95.08 KiB | Viewed 6177 times ]
4. solve 4 of the next centers but don't compleet them one at a time. first solve them all so that you can still move the top slice without destroying what you've done like this
Attachment:

gigaminx4a.jpg [ 100.33 KiB | Viewed 6177 times ]
this can be done in very few moves. then use the remaining 2 centers to build the groups of 3 pieces needed in these centers and place them.
5. Finish the last 2 centers however you like.
6. The most tidious step. Edge pairing. I just do this two pices at a time and try to be eficient. The fact that so much of the bottom is solved doesn't really hinder you at all and makes recognition SO MUCH easier than if you just do straght reduction.
7. solve like a partialy already solved megaminx.

This method can get sub 600 (though not by much) and even if you just go for speed, which this method i think is very good at due to easy recocnition in the final edge pairing stage, you shouldn't use more than 900 moves.
Not only that but this method or something very similar depending on the puzzle can be used for 1.1.10, 1.1.11, 1.1.16, 1.1.21, 1.1.41, 2.2.9x and 2.2.10x though some of these are very different the basic idea of 6 centers (or groups of corners on the icosahedrons) then 10 edges then the rest of the centers can still be used and is still helpfull.

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Last edited by Elwyn on Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:07 pm

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:52 pm
The gigaminx and others monsterminx collect by a method "the centres - edges - as megaminx".

1) We collect a star at the centre of the first side:

2) We collect the centre of the first side;
3) Similarly we collect the centre of an opposite side;
4) We collect stars on all centres stayed 10 sides as in item 1). They are going to easily and intuitively. Thus the first and second centres are not mentioned - similarly to assembly of the centres on the large cubes;
5) We collect the centres stayed 10 sides, for example:

The stroke means turn counter-clockwise on 72 degrees. Two strokes - on 144 degrees counter-clockwise. 2 - turn on 144 degrees clockwise.

6) We collect all edges - similarly to assembly of edges on the large cubes. The parities here will not be in general;
7) We collect as megaminx.
The assembly is completed!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:15 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
Elwyn wrote:
Julian wrote:
Hint: How could you shorten the inner (4,1) to (3,1)?
(3,1).... i have no idea, infact i don't know any (3,1) commutators. You mentioned using one for the centers of starminx like puzzles before and i checked and i use a (4,1).... I also looked for a way to shorten this one after i read this but it just doesn't work
My original inner commutator was based on a sliced version of a clockwise Pyraminx or Pyraminx Crystal edge cycle: (l' r l r', BR). Then it occurred to me that I might be wasting a move by tidying up both sides of the puzzle. What if I missed out the first move, temporarily leaving the left side of the puzzle messy and not caring, seeing as the Q move of the commutator is acting on the right side of the puzzle anyway? Wouldn't the messiness just undo itself? Sure enough, (r l r', BR) works -- it isolates a single 1.1.26 circle piece in a turning layer. The same principle applies to many other (3,1) algos: missing out the first or last move of a symmetric 2-gen cycle.

Thanks for the fine 1.1.9 summary! I have had a mental block when it comes to solving 1.1.9-1.1.11 efficiently, but now I see how it is done.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:34 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Julian wrote:
My original inner commutator was based on a sliced version of a clockwise Pyraminx or Pyraminx Crystal edge cycle: (l' r l r', BR). Then it occurred to me that I might be wasting a move by tidying up both sides of the puzzle. What if I missed out the first move, temporarily leaving the left side of the puzzle messy and not caring, seeing as the Q move of the commutator is acting on the right side of the puzzle anyway? Wouldn't the messiness just undo itself? Sure enough, (r l r', BR) works -- it isolates a single 1.1.26 circle piece in a turning layer. The same principle applies to many other (3,1) algos: missing out the first or last move of a symmetric 2-gen cycle.
How annoying!! i tried exactly that and it didn't work... i don't know what i was doing wrong but last time i tried to do it i couldn't get it to work and this time it did work hahaha. Atleast i thought of the right thing i just must have not been concentrating when i did it and then gave up on the idea to quickly. Actulay now that i think about it i think i was leaving out the last move of the 4 but still trying to turn the right side hahaha oops. Anyway thanks for all your help it's much apriciated
Julian wrote:
Thanks for the fine 1.1.9 summary! I have had a mental block when it comes to solving 1.1.9-1.1.11 efficiently, but now I see how it is done.
Yes one of the reasons i posted it was your name wasn't even on the fewest moves list hahaha. I was also concidering posting it as a seperate topic so people that have a gigaminx but don't read this thread would see it because i've seen some youtube videos of people doing straght reduction on a gigaminx and that just makes edge pairing so boring and hard. I still might but not right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:37 pm

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:57 pm
Location: Pittsburgh
Elwyn wrote:
Julian wrote:
My original inner commutator was based on a sliced version of a clockwise Pyraminx or Pyraminx Crystal edge cycle: (l' r l r', BR). Then it occurred to me that I might be wasting a move by tidying up both sides of the puzzle. What if I missed out the first move, temporarily leaving the left side of the puzzle messy and not caring, seeing as the Q move of the commutator is acting on the right side of the puzzle anyway? Wouldn't the messiness just undo itself? Sure enough, (r l r', BR) works -- it isolates a single 1.1.26 circle piece in a turning layer. The same principle applies to many other (3,1) algos: missing out the first or last move of a symmetric 2-gen cycle.
How annoying!! i tried exactly that and it didn't work... i don't know what i was doing wrong but last time i tried to do it i couldn't get it to work and this time it did work hahaha. Atleast i thought of the right thing i just must have not been concentrating when i did it and then gave up on the idea to quickly. Actulay now that i think about it i think i was leaving out the last move of the 4 but still trying to turn the right side hahaha oops. Anyway thanks for all your help it's much apriciated
Julian wrote:
Thanks for the fine 1.1.9 summary! I have had a mental block when it comes to solving 1.1.9-1.1.11 efficiently, but now I see how it is done.
Yes one of the reasons i posted it was your name wasn't even on the fewest moves list hahaha. I was also concidering posting it as a seperate topic so people that have a gigaminx but don't read this thread would see it because i've seen some youtube videos of people doing straght reduction on a gigaminx and that just makes edge pairing so boring and hard. I still might but not right now.
Write it up as an article for the solutions page!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:47 pm

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
theVDude wrote:
Write it up as an article for the solutions page!
Hahaha i would if i thought anyone ever looked at the solutions page but really i think people would be more likely to see it even if it was just a normal thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:57 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Elwyn wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
My intuition tells me those 2-color edge/center pieces can't be put in the correct position but with wrong orientation but I'm concerned I'm wrong and I'm going to hit an orientation parity.
the 2 colour pieces solve just like the wing edges of a gigaminx... there might be a 4x4x4 like orientation parity due to no center edge but i didn't get it when i solved it.

At least on some of the color variations there is a apparent orientation parity:
Attachment:

2.2.10_10colol_oparity.png [ 18.89 KiB | Viewed 6075 times ]

Fixing it is actually rather trivial. I did it with two edge-wing 3-cycles plus some setup moves for each 3-cycle. I wasn't even trying to be efficient about it and the solution was straight-forward.

EDIT: I just got the same parity on 2.2.10 custom 1 (2.2.10c) and I was able to solve it in a single three-cycle plus setup moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:39 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Gelatin Brain just added a whole slew of new circle dodecahedra Thanks!

I'm wondering if you're ever going to get the three hidden circle cubes up on the front page? I'd suggest breaking that long row into two right after 3.1.14 and then including 3.1.21-23

Also, I'd love to see a super-sticker Skewb

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:52 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
I know, not a big accomplishment but I'm finally the first to solve a puzzle.

1.1.37
Attachment:

1.1.37_solved.png [ 29.88 KiB | Viewed 6098 times ]

1) Solve corners like Megaminx
2) Solve centers. I used the standard "big cube" centers cycle routine plus a setup move which resulted in a 4-cycle across three adjacent faces.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion ThreadPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:41 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
So i just did 1.1.37 and to start i looked for a way to apply the "big cubes" center cycle like Brandon said he did but then gave up Instead i just went with a kind of semi reduction method as in for the first half of the puzzle i reduced the corners into whole kilominx corrners then put them in place as i solved them when that started to get too hard i just solved the rest of the corners and fiinaly used a 10 move three cycle containing only slice moves. It took me a little over 300 moves i think (i really should pay more attention when i finish so i can post what i actualy got haha) and over 2 hours.... but that's only because i had a break and spent 2 hours watching survivor in the middle of the solve hahahaha. I know i could have saved a fair few moves if i had Brandon's... wait did you mean 4 cycle or 2-2 swap because i didn't think you could have 4 cycles on puzzles like this just double swaps 3 cycles and 5 cycles.

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