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 Post subject: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:22 am 
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How would you describe binocular vision to a person that never had it? This has been bugging me my whole life. I have third nerve paralysis in my left eye since I was 1 1/2 years old. I had my doctor and my friend try to tell me but I can never understand them. Could someone please try to explain it to me so that I understand.

I can't see Magic eye or with the 3-d glasses.

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:29 am 
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Having a detached retina in my right eye from infancy, I am in the same boat, but I have never given much thought what I am missing in this regard. I also fail to understand how binocular visions is supposedly necessary for depth perception as I have never had difficulty judging distances.

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Check this website out, it may give you some insight
http://lala.cursivebuildings.com/tagged/reaching


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:32 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
How would you describe binocular vision to a person that never had it? This has been bugging me my whole life. I have third nerve paralysis in my left eye since I was 1 1/2 years old. I had my doctor and my friend try to tell me but I can never understand them. Could someone please try to explain it to me so that I understand.

I can't see Magic eye or with the 3-d glasses.


I had a friend who had a similar problem. I came up with a solution that worked for him (not for 3-D glasses though).

Binocular vision is based on having two images from a slightly different angle. Simulate this by turning your head back and forth, or wagging your head back and forth. This allows one eye to perceive from more than one angle.

I've seen other solutions, but this doesn't require tools.

David J

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:31 pm 
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It makes a lot of difference, this I know from experience.

At some point my right eye stopped working properly. Nothing exotic, it just got extremely near sighted. I didn't notice this happening, and certainly didn't notice losing any ability to see. The result was that I had a near total lack of depth perception. (Because my right eye was so out of focus it was as if I was using only my right.) Then one day I took an eye exam, realized that my right eye was seeing the world terribly, and got glasses.

It was like the world changed the instant I put them on.

-

The best way I know of to describe it is in terms of depth. Without two fully functioning eyes looking out into the world (without moving) is a lot like looking at a photograph. With binocular vision looking at the world (again, without moving) is like being there.

Notice that I said without moving. The best way (I know of) to simulate binocular vision is to move. When you move, be it sideways, forward, backward, up, or down everything you see moves, but it all moves at different rates. Things that are at a distance move a different amount than things which are up close, some things seem to stand completely still where others move significantly. This gives you a way of judging how far away something is, it gives literal depth.

As I said, the difference is like looking at a photo and being there, the reason is that if you are actually at a place you can move from side to side, walk around, see whatever your are looking at from different angles. Even if you can't walk around for whatever reason you can at least move your head from side to side which makes what you are seeing look completely different from a photograph.

So imagine that you were somewhere, looking at something and imagine how that would be different from being somewhere looking at a life sized image of the same view (and in both cases you are free to move around at bit.) That's more or less the difference between binocular vision and monocular vision. Of course with binocular vision you don't need to move, you get the depth even when you are staring right at something, but movement simulates it pretty well.

This is also why some predators bob their heads, binocular vision allows you to gage depth, moving your head allows you to gage depth, doing both allows them to gage depth even better.

Unfortunately while the brain translates binocular vision into depth without requiring any effort on your part, it doesn't do the same for moving from side to side with one eye. I'm guessing the same is not true for the bobbing predators.


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:26 pm 
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chris the cynic wrote:
[snip]

This is also why some predators bob their heads, binocular vision allows you to gage depth, moving your head allows you to gage depth, doing both allows them to gage depth even better.

Unfortunately while the brain translates binocular vision into depth without requiring any effort on your part, it doesn't do the same for moving from side to side with one eye. I'm guessing the same is not true for the bobbing predators.


Your statement can be misleading. You make it sound like moving from side to side with one eye can't work. The brain can learn to see depth very well by moving from side to side with one eye. From the first I tried it it worked just fine. My friend got back to me a few months later and told me it worked just fine for him, too. He was using for things like driving at night.

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:00 pm 
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David J wrote:
Your statement can be misleading. You make it sound like moving from side to side with one eye can't work. The brain can learn to see depth very well by moving from side to side with one eye. From the first I tried it it worked just fine. My friend got back to me a few months later and told me it worked just fine for him, too. He was using for things like driving at night.


Did anybody even LOOK at the link I posted.
It's a collection of pictures that simulates this exact effect.


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:41 pm 
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While Tyler's link might give people the idea of binocular vision, it isn't exactly it. I think explaining binocular vision to someone who has never had it is as easy as explaining the color red to someone with red-green color blindness. It just doesn't work.

Am i making any sense at all?

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:40 am 
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TheCube wrote:
While Tyler's link might give people the idea of binocular vision, it isn't exactly it. I think explaining binocular vision to someone who has never had it is as easy as explaining the color red to someone with red-green color blindness. It just doesn't work.

Am i making any sense at all?


I would actually disagree with that point in this case until Darren or Jeffery commented.
The way I see it, the senses and faculties of the brain are still there, but the brain is just not getting enough information (versus no information: blind, or incorrect information: colorblind). The perceived effect may be analogous to how some blind people who are given retinal implants see like infants do, but I believe that because the illusion created by those pictures is nothing more than an interpretation by brains that have a concept of depth, that there is a chance that a sense of depth will be conveyed.


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:14 am 
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I agree with TBTTyler here. This must be the first time I experienced 3D vision with one of my eyes shut!
And it does not only give me some good idea for future photos I plan to take, but here, as a forum,
we might use this type of vision for the puzzle database!

:)


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:49 am 
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TBTTyler wrote:
It's a collection of pictures that simulates this exact effect.


While it does simulate a 3D affect, it's by a different process than shaking your head. The process these photos use could only be replicated by someone with two eyes.

In a sense, these images are the same as quickly opening and closing your eyes, alternating which eye is opened and which is closed, back and forth. (If that doesn't make sense, imagine trying to wink as quickly as possible, alternating the winking eye each time)

Shaking your head back and forth creates a field of view in the shape of an arc as your head pivots. It does not give the instantaneous view from two directions that binocular sight or the images you linked do, but it is awfully close.
(this is just me being a stickler for details)


If none of this makes sense, I could draw a diagram of some sort, but for now I think my description should work...


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:30 am 
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Now imagine if you could shake your head instantaneously. Then it is the same.
The only detail that matters for this exercise is the *parallax* between different viewpoints.
Whether those viewpoints are along the arc of shaking your head, or from two different cameras, the effect is still exactly the same.


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:58 am 
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Looks like I have a few pictures to take and a few GIF images to make to show the difference. Eventually. I can't do it right now.

But you'll like them.

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:02 am 
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David J wrote:
Your statement can be misleading. You make it sound like moving from side to side with one eye can't work. The brain can learn to see depth very well by moving from side to side with one eye. From the first I tried it it worked just fine. My friend got back to me a few months later and told me it worked just fine for him, too. He was using for things like driving at night.

Yeah, I probably could have said that better somehow.

TBTTyler wrote:
Did anybody even LOOK at the link I posted.
It's a collection of pictures that simulates this exact effect.

I did. I think it is certainly useful, but I also think what I said was useful.


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:07 pm 
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http://www.marcofolio.net/other/illusio ... ragon.html

I made one of these awhile ago, and it's as if the dragon is following you. It _only_ works with one eye open. If both eyes are open, it doesn't work. So it may sort of simulate 3D, but really it's just an illusion based on what your brain is used to seeing.

-d


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:16 pm 
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darryl wrote:
http://www.marcofolio.net/other/illusion_of_a_3d_dragon.html

I made one of these awhile ago, and it's as if the dragon is following you. It _only_ works with one eye open. If both eyes are open, it doesn't work. So it may sort of simulate 3D, but really it's just an illusion based on what your brain is used to seeing.

-d


Darryl, that is simply brilliant! I will get that PDF file and print one dragon in A3 laminated paper for my office!

:)


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
How would you describe binocular vision to a person that never had it?


You can see slightly around and behind both sides of an object at the same time (especially if close).

K.

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:53 pm 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
Darren Grewe wrote:
How would you describe binocular vision to a person that never had it?


You can see slightly around and behind both sides of an object at the same time (especially if close).

K.


Okay I can understand that. So what your saying is the you have a Rubik's cube in front of you so the its in the center between the eyes and rotate the cube 45 degrees down. So what your saying is you can see 4 sides of the Rubik's cube? Am I right? I guess looking at two different things strait in front of you is impossible for me to understand. I understand horse eyesight to a certain degree. I don't understand possessing two slightly different images to get one.

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:07 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
Kelvin Stott wrote:
Darren Grewe wrote:
How would you describe binocular vision to a person that never had it?


You can see slightly around and behind both sides of an object at the same time (especially if close).

K.


Okay I can understand that. So what your saying is the you have a Rubik's cube in front of you so the its in the center between the eyes and rotate the cube 45 degrees down. So what your saying is you can see 4 sides of the Rubik's cube? Am I right? I guess looking at two different things strait in front of you is impossible for me to understand. I understand horse eyesight to a certain degree. I don't understand possessing two slightly different images to get one.


yes it is possible, but it is a very weird image being produced most of the time as the mind can't join them correctly.

A better example is looking down on your nose and seeing both sides at the same time, gives me headaches :)


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:08 pm 
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Well, a rubik's cube is a bit too wide, and not quite long enough, but that's the idea.

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:11 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Darryl, that is simply brilliant! I will get that PDF file and print one dragon in A3 laminated paper for my office!

:)


Pantazis


I had one on my desk for quite some time, the paper eventually wore out though since it was just regular copy paper.
There are more of these types of illusions, here is another example:
http://www.grand-illusions.com/opticali ... llow_face/

This one has nothing to do with the original topic, I just love the picture though:
http://www.grand-illusions.com/opticali ... s/mistake/

This is somewhat on topic. It basically increases your depth perception (unfortunately you need two working eyes)
http://www.grand-illusions.com/acatalog/Hyperscope.html

-d


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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:10 pm 
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I love those. I used to have them, but I also used regular paper, and they got squashed.

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 Post subject: Re: question about binocular vision
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 4:29 pm 
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TBTTyler wrote:
Check this website out, it may give you some insight
http://lala.cursivebuildings.com/tagged/reaching


Those are brilliant, especially the one of the hippo!

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