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 Post subject: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:27 pm 
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Interesting mailout from Uwe:

http://mefferts.com/page.php?lang=en&th ... le_release

A very good solution for these non-genuine items.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:29 pm 
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It's a very interesting proposal, absolutely. I'm not sure how I feel about the clouding of the whole issue, but it does make things intriguing.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:30 pm 
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i saw this earlier but they dont look brand name even after that long email about copyright laws


i just read the %7 part sorry


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:38 pm 
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I'm disappointed that they're being considered as "special edition" puzzles. Also at the comment under the 7x7.

Either way I still plan on buying the originals of both of these puzzles at one point, so I'll pass on these.

Edit: I did the math and basically Verdes would get around $3 for each one of these sold, and Okamoto-san, $1. Anyone want to comment on these figures?


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:51 pm 
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This is a very unique idea to help the inventors.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:58 pm 
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I'm holding my breath until I hear and learn more about this. I'm confused and anxious; I feel like a child. I don't know what to think. What's going on? What does this mean? Where are these puzzles coming from? What is Mr. Meffert doing?

This is just too much information at once. Void cubes (knockoffs?), 7x7's (knockoffs?!) and restocking old puzzles, and possibly releasing new ones?


This is too much for one email newsletter.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:29 am 
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would one of you nice gentlemen send me a pm so I can have the email forwarded. For some reason he hasn't taken my new email onboard. I haven't gotten any of these in ages.

Thanks to everyone who forwarded me the email! I appreciate it!

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Last edited by katsmom on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:58 am 
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From the sources I know (and one is a direct source) neither the inventor of the V-cube nor the inventor of the Void cube had ever agreed to any of those terms, which clearly, are being forced without their consent. And what is more serious, is that the V-cube *has* a patent. Sadly, I can forsee legal actions happening soon.

I know Uwe's pyraminx has been copied to the core in the past. But doing it now to others, is simply not the way to go.


Pantazis

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Last edited by kastellorizo on Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:59 am 
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I'm still not quite sure what to think about this. "Re engineered Mechanism", yea right, its clearly a direct copy. Still, I think its better to buy directly from the original manufacturer. Especially for the V-cubes.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:11 am 
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i thought he was against, and worried about fake copied puzzles, and now hes gona sell some cheap imitations? hmm there must be an explanation, i dont want to be rude, uwe is a fantastic seller, with some amazing puzzles

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:06 am 
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Neix wrote:
i thought he was against, and worried about fake copied puzzles, and now hes gona sell some cheap imitations? hmm there must be an explanation, i dont want to be rude, uwe is a fantastic seller, with some amazing puzzles


My thought as well. I'm thinking maybe he's doing the "If you can't beat them, join them" thing, and some of the money is going to support the original creators of the puzzles... He is making the best of a bad situation perhaps? I won't be buying them either way. My support goes to the creators by buying the originals, which I already own (5x5,6x6,7x7 white + Black Void cube, + floppy (or floopy) cube when it comes out).

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:10 am 
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I hope that the Verdes family sucsessfully sues the people copying them.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:05 am 
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Lol I just got woke up witht his e-mail & ran over to my computer to see if this had broken the lines on here yet. I do not know what to think of this. I think I will chill for a while & let this situation simmer down for a bit.

I agree with Caphits.

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Last edited by Shua on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:46 am 
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hold your horses. as per newsletter from mefferts.com, it is just a "survey". the said survey will determine if indeed meffert will include these items (7x7x7 @ void cubes) in his miscellaneous puzzles category.

i believe mr. meffert wouldn't do anything that would damage his very good reputation.

let's just wait what he'll say about this.

regards,
eryx


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:47 am 
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I very much like and appreciate what Meffert has done for the puzzle community over the decades, but this troubles me for two reasons:

1.) Perhaps it was an error of translation, but I did not at all get the impression it this offer was contingent on the inventors acceptance. Rather it seemed like it was a much more standard: "Is there a market for these" poll. This is troubling to me. If the inventors do not accept these offered terms (and I don't know that they would) it seems they will be sold on Meffert's site anyway.

2.) The discussion of whether or not an inventor would accept such terms seems like a private matter to be arranged ahead of any annoucement. Anything otherwise seems like it would be forcing someone's hand.

With no patent protection I can imagine Mr. Okamoto considering it although I might guess he would not accept. With an expensive set of international patents I can't imagine Mr. Verdes would. If he does not enforce his patent he pays all these costs for nothing. Accepting these terms weakens any legal patent enforcment he attempts in the future and basically says: "OK, go ahead and pirate, I can't do anything about it." as opposed to "You may not infringe. Talk to me about licensing terms if you wish to produce my design."

I would hope Meffert would not participate in this activity and would be very sad to see him on the wrong side of a patent lawsuit. Yet from this proposal it seems headed that way. With Mr. Okamoto there are no legal issues preventing it but the ethics of such action are also troubling (a matter that has been debated in another thread). With Mr. Verdes it is flat out illegal, however benevolent the intent may be. Brokering some compenstation for unavoidable theft has merit as a concept but it presumes the theft is a unavoidable and has no other remedy. I don't think is the case.

Dave :(

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:01 am 
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Remove the sponsor logo ... err wait ..... re-engineer it :-P

Per

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:07 am 
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From reliable sources I hear that VERDES Innovations S.A. don't have dealings of any kind with the M├Ęffert family.
On the contrary, they are angry when they read about 'reverse engineering' and see that their internationally copyrighted invention is treated with contempt.
(I hope my English is without conveying error)

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Last edited by Georges on Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:10 am 
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Garrett wrote:
"Re engineered Mechanism", yea right, its clearly a direct copy.

But it has 109 more pieces! Meffert 327 vs Verdes 218.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:10 am 
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Georges wrote:
From reliable sources I hear that VERDES Innovations S.A. don't have dealings of any kind with the M├Ęffert family.
On the contrary, they are angry when they read about 'reverse engineering' and see that their internationally copyrighted invention is treated with contempt.


Thats my worst fear for this situation. Thanks Georges.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:03 am 
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I find it interesting to rename "void cube" into "holey cube".

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:15 am 
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venom wrote:
hold your horses. as per newsletter from mefferts.com, it is just a "survey". the said survey will determine if indeed meffert will include these items (7x7x7 @ void cubes) in his miscellaneous puzzles category.

i believe mr. meffert wouldn't do anything that would damage his very good reputation.

let's just wait what he'll say about this.


Meh! Mr Meffert already damaged his reputation by selling the rip-off mf8 megaminx as his own and charging the full $28 for it without indicating on the shop site that it wasn't genuine. At least he had "the right" (whatever that stands for nowadays) to sell the megaminx which he sure doesn't have for the Void Cube or V-Cube 7.

Ahem, did my bitterness just slip out? :D

Having said that, the mf8 is proving to be fast if not well built! That shows me!


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:48 am 
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msemtd wrote:
Meh! Mr Meffert already damaged his reputation by selling the rip-off mf8 megaminx as his own and charging the full $28 for it without indicating on the shop site that it wasn't genuine. At least he had "the right" (whatever that stands for nowadays) to sell the megaminx which he sure doesn't have for the Void Cube or V-Cube 7.


Megaminx patents have expired and Void Cube doesn't have patents, so he (as well as anyone else) has the legal right to sell those. Morally it could well be different -- for the Void Cube, at least. As far as I'm concerned an expired patent, or an idea that's older than a patent would have expired by, are fair game morally as well as legally. Mr Meffert though has placed himself squarely on the wrong side of the law wrt the 777, unless it really is a reengineered mechanism. However I suspect that the extra 100 pieces are just the fact of some pieces like edges being made in 2 rather than 1 casting.

This is pretty much exactly what he said he'd be doing in the previous newsletter, though. Why was there so much less indignation then? He's even upped the reserved percentage from 4 to 7 in between.
DLitwin wrote:
Brokering some compenstation for unavoidable theft has merit as a concept but it presumes the theft is a unavoidable and has no other remedy. I don't think is the case.


I actually think the damage *is* unavoidable (and it's not theft, which has an entirely different legal definition. Copyright infringement isn't theft either, despite what the MPAA would like you to think -- although it's just as illegal). The replica Void cubes are on [removed], no doubt the V7s will be too (at least after they don't want to sell any more Genuine Verdes cubes), and [removed] makes buying these things from anywhere in the world trivial. Hell, it's about a thousand times more convenient to get one of the replica void cubes than the real thing, right now.

One thing that Mr Verdes (or others impacted by this) could do without damaging his patent enforcement status is simply let the money accumulate in that trust fund, and only claim it if and when it had become unnecessary/impossible to defend the patent legally anyway. This rather presumes of course that said trust would even pay up after a long and probably quite acrimonious court battle over patents.

Thing is, Meffert knows all about long and acromonious court battles over patents. He's won them, from the other side -- but in a rather Pyrrhic fashion. This is very much an "if you can't beat them, join them" thing. Cynically, one might presume that Mr Meffert has gotten realistic in his old age.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:38 am 
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JasperJ wrote:
Megaminx patents have expired and Void Cube doesn't have patents, so he (as well as anyone else) has the legal right to sell those. Morally it could well be different --


Yeah, it's the moral aspect that gets me more annoyed.

Like selling the mf8 minx as a genuine Meffert's which I won't stop whining about until I get some good averages with it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:47 am 
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Evendividing the edge pieces in half, I still can't come up with that many pieces. Or does each section of the core, the screws and springs count as a piece?

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:06 am 
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being a new member here (well, fairly new :D) I shouldn't be saying much but this really disgusts me.

even if 7% would be given to Mr. Verdes he would really just lose the 93% which mefferts would be happily pocketing.

Remember promises of the v2-4, and v8-11? they would not exist if we boycott it by buying other versions of the v7.

just my 2 cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:11 am 
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Stefan Pochmann wrote:
But it has 109 more pieces! Meffert 327 vs Verdes 218.


That's odd indeed... maybe it is a different mechanism. It's still really weird. First Uwe Meffert posts (or let someone post for him) this kind of activity shocks him, not even te legal but also the ethical variant, and now he's copying the void cube!

But the part in which he tells us about the reselling of some other out of stock puzzles... That's the part I like most in the whole mail.

Let's wait and see....

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:23 am 
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Playing devil's advocate here. It does say This on Uwe's webpage

Please tick the Puzzles you would want to pre-order
so we can determine if it is worthwhile to add these to our Puzzle Shop.
The Price includes FREE shipping Via Airmail Worldwide.
and a 7% Royalty allowance for the rightful Inventor.

This doesn't necessarily mean he IS going to add them. It may be just a testing of the waters.

Maybe based on his last email he DOES think he is helping combat illegal copies by doing this.

As for the price, if it costs $30 to produce, and $3 is going to the inventor, that leaves $9 for "profit"
But that isn't really profit. It also includes the "free shipping" that has to come from someone's pocket. And to send one of these stateside is US$12. So there we run into a negative.
I'm not saying this is the production cost, it is probably lower. But then, I did say I was playing devil's advocate. Don't any one shoot me for voicing this.

Is it a copy? Very clearly yes. How close to the original, I can't say, I wouldn't dare take mine apart. I've seen the pictures in old threads and I don't think I could get it together again.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:35 am 
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katsmom wrote:
Playing devil's advocate here. It does say This on Uwe's webpage

Please tick the Puzzles you would want to pre-order
so we can determine if it is worthwhile to add these to our Puzzle Shop.
The Price includes FREE shipping Via Airmail Worldwide.
and a 7% Royalty allowance for the rightful Inventor.

This doesn't necessarily mean he IS going to add them. It may be just a testing of the waters.

Maybe based on his last email he DOES think he is helping combat illegal copies by doing this.

As for the price, if it costs $30 to produce, and $3 is going to the inventor, that leaves $9 for "profit"
But that isn't really profit. It also includes the "free shipping" that has to come from someone's pocket. And to send one of these stateside is US$12. So there we run into a negative.
I'm not saying this is the production cost, it is probably lower. But then, I did say I was playing devil's advocate. Don't any one shoot me for voicing this.

Is it a copy? Very clearly yes. How close to the original, I can't say, I wouldn't dare take mine apart. I've seen the pictures in old threads and I don't think I could get it together again.


I want to be very clear that I'm not trying to be harsh to you in any way, but I find it very offensive that he would even consider this a possibility. He may think this is the right way to defend agenst piracy but it is not his decision to make. Defending the V-cube design is the responsibility of the Verdes family and their lawyers.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:37 am 
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JasperJ wrote:
This is pretty much exactly what he said he'd be doing in the previous newsletter, though. Why was there so much less indignation then? He's even upped the reserved percentage from 4 to 7 in between.
I think because it was presumed this would be an offer to those inventors, not an act made regardless of their participation. The "I'm going to do it if it makes sense for me" aspect of it is troubling to me.
JasperJ wrote:
I actually think the damage *is* unavoidable (and it's not theft, which has an entirely different legal definition.
Good point about my use of the term theft, thanks for the correction. But as to unavoidable I believe that applies only to the Void Cube. We'll see where patent enforcement takes the V7 situation. I can hope that it will be favorable to Mr. Verdes. This will be a sad but important and interesting test of the legal system in this part of the world. What ever the result will undoubtedly apply to our very own Pantazis soon so I can hope it favors justice.
JasperJ wrote:
One thing that Mr Verdes (or others impacted by this) could do without damaging his patent enforcement status is simply let the money accumulate in that trust fund, and only claim it if and when it had become unnecessary/impossible to defend the patent legally anyway. This rather presumes of course that said trust would even pay up after a long and probably quite acrimonious court battle over patents.
Good point. In business it always makes sense to reserve all avenues even if they are not the most favorable. I suppose ignoring (not actively rejecting) the invitation but pursuing legal injunction does not close off either option.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:48 am 
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DLitwin wrote:
We'll see where patent enforcement takes the V7 situation. I can hope that it will be favorable to Mr. Verdes. This will be a sad but important and interesting test of the legal system in this part of the world. What ever the result will undoubtedly apply to our very own Pantazis soon so I can hope it favors justice.
Dave


I would love to see how this stands up to the litigation test. I have very little faith in the legal system on the mainland. I know our good Dr. disagrees with me, but case in point, the milk powder scandal. Governmental officials knew about it and turned a blind eye. And that was very very huge! No offense to Verdes, but in the greater scheme of things, what is a puzzle. Wheels turn slowly here unless you are being executed. I would hope to see that these puzzles aren't sold by Meffert's (who I have respected through the years). And I sincerely hope that if worse comes to worse, it doesn't get tied up in the system for too long.

And Shua, i didn't take it as being rude. As I said, I was trying to see it a different way.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:51 am 
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The speedsolving forum has mechanism pictures.

I haven't had my 7x7 apart in a long time but from what I can tell the design is pretty much exactly the same - maybe one or two pieces have been slightly changed in their exterior appearance. The difference in the number of pieces thus must be from counting the pieces differently, i.e. doing many of the larger pieces as 2 parts and then counting both parts as a piece. But it's still the same number of pieces, and on the outside it's still the same mechanism. Besides, on my genuine V-7, several of the larger pieces do consist of two pieces glued together, so I doubt the Chinese changed much at all.

Anyone know if the V-cube patent in China is still pending?

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:55 am 
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qqwref wrote:
The speedsolving forum has mechanism pictures.

I haven't had my 7x7 apart in a long time but from what I can tell the design is pretty much exactly the same - maybe one or two pieces have been slightly changed in their exterior appearance.


That looks perfectly identical to the V-7 {imho}.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:15 am 
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Putting aside the moral issues for a moment, let's think pragmatically. Here are the options as I see them:

1 - Verdes tries to sue the bootleggers. Judging for Uwe's personal experiences and those of many hundreds of other companies around the world, this will be very expensive and go nowhere. Result: Mr V. is out hundreds of thousands of dollars and the bootlegs are still available.

2 - Verdes ignores the bootleggers. Result: people buy the bootleg, which eats into his sales by some unknowable margin. Net loss for for Mr V.

3 - Verdes partners with the bootleggers (or Mefferts, by proxy) and takes a cut of the sales. Result: The V-cubes branding stays intact, and Mr V. actually sees some revenue.

I base the above on the assuption that it's simply not possible to stop the bootleggers from doing what they do best. I wish Verdes all the luck in the world if he tries to pursue this from a legal perspective; however, he'd be the first guy in history to prevent his product from being bootlegged.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:07 pm 
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JasperJ wrote:
msemtd wrote:
Meh! Mr Meffert already damaged his reputation by selling the rip-off mf8 megaminx as his own and charging the full $28 for it without indicating on the shop site that it wasn't genuine. At least he had "the right" (whatever that stands for nowadays) to sell the megaminx which he sure doesn't have for the Void Cube or V-Cube 7.


Megaminx patents have expired and Void Cube doesn't have patents, so he (as well as anyone else) has the legal right to sell those. Morally it could well be different -- for the Void Cube, at least. As far as I'm concerned an expired patent, or an idea that's older than a patent would have expired by, are fair game morally as well as legally. Mr Meffert though has placed himself squarely on the wrong side of the law wrt the 777, unless it really is a reengineered mechanism. However I suspect that the extra 100 pieces are just the fact of some pieces like edges being made in 2 rather than 1 casting.

This is pretty much exactly what he said he'd be doing in the previous newsletter, though. Why was there so much less indignation then? He's even upped the reserved percentage from 4 to 7 in between.
DLitwin wrote:
Brokering some compenstation for unavoidable theft has merit as a concept but it presumes the theft is a unavoidable and has no other remedy. I don't think is the case.


I actually think the damage *is* unavoidable (and it's not theft, which has an entirely different legal definition. Copyright infringement isn't theft either, despite what the MPAA would like you to think -- although it's just as illegal). The replica Void cubes are on Dealextreme, no doubt the V7s will be too (at least after they don't want to sell any more Genuine Verdes cubes), and DX makes buying these things from anywhere in the world trivial. Hell, it's about a thousand times more convenient to get one of the replica void cubes than the real thing, right now.

One thing that Mr Verdes (or others impacted by this) could do without damaging his patent enforcement status is simply let the money accumulate in that trust fund, and only claim it if and when it had become unnecessary/impossible to defend the patent legally anyway. This rather presumes of course that said trust would even pay up after a long and probably quite acrimonious court battle over patents.

Thing is, Meffert knows all about long and acromonious court battles over patents. He's won them, from the other side -- but in a rather Pyrrhic fashion. This is very much an "if you can't beat them, join them" thing. Cynically, one might presume that Mr Meffert has gotten realistic in his old age.



It seems to me you still live in the early 80s. And it also seems to me you support TOO MUCH this issue. Why?
(you have done way too many supporting for a reason beyond my mind).

Today, many things have changed in many ways. Some parts may be more difficult, so may be easier.
But those battles are now different, and the outcome can well be different too (and not *that* Pyrrhic).

Suggesting that giving up is the solution is more dangerous than what is actually happening here. Because you suggest,
that everyone, every designer, every inventor, not only in this forum, but everywhere, will have to agree with such forced "proposals".
From what I know, patents *can* be enforced for importing AND exporting.

To me it is clear what is happening here, while other may pretend to be "surprised". A new force is coming to the puzzle
world, and someone or some big company is using such means to stop any competition.

The conclusions are yours, but at the moment I have seen who really support the ethics part and who are not.
(even though, the ethics part is also supported by a patent here!).

Because, in the end of the day, if everyone here agrees to this blackmail, it is like giving up their own past, present
and future designs, to people who claim they want to "help".

When I was at the Nuremberg Toy Fair, at the spiel-cafe, the companies which copied others, were mentioned one-by-one
and ridiculed, and all the legal actions against them were also mentioned. I sincerely hope Uwe will not be in that list next year.
Because then, his mythical reputation will be gone forever. Or it seems, "fame was hated by many, but money by no one".



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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:30 pm 
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chicken sandwich wrote:
even if 7% would be given to Mr. Verdes he would really just lose the 93% which mefferts would be happily pocketing.

Wrong, just wrong. As nicely explained by Arnaud:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showp ... stcount=34

And some interesting claims about Meffert from someone "anonymous":
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showp ... stcount=31


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:15 pm 
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All I have to say to this news.

Meffert..... Why do you Betray us all? Why do you side with the theives and pirates. and to the pirates. I hope Verdes kicks your legal arse

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:19 pm 
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Inwards wrote:
3 - Verdes partners with the bootleggers (or Mefferts, by proxy) and takes a cut of the sales. Result: The V-cubes branding stays intact, and Mr V. actually sees some revenue.


Nr 3 is nonsense. For every cube sold by someone else than Verdes, the loss is a lot bigger, because Verdes has not only
spent money to patent them, but to also manufacture them.



Inwards wrote:
I base the above on the assuption that it's simply not possible to stop the bootleggers from doing what they do best. I wish Verdes all the luck in the world if he tries to pursue this from a legal perspective; however, he'd be the first guy in history to prevent his product from being bootlegged.


Well, there is always a first time for everything, isn't there? And this is a special case here, different from all the previous ones.
The point is not stopping the inwards sales (although it would be nice if that happened as a side effect).
The goal is to stop it being distributed to countries and people who actually have ethics.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:19 pm 
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Drewseph wrote:
All I have to say to this news.

Meffert..... Why do you Betray us all? Why do you side with the theives and pirates. and to the pirates. I hope Verdes kicks your legal arse


I guess you and everybody else would rather him stop selling puzzles at reasonable prices to the public?

I know I would feel that way if people said those kind of things to me without knowing the whole story.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:24 pm 
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LewAshby wrote:
Drewseph wrote:
All I have to say to this news.

Meffert..... Why do you Betray us all? Why do you side with the theives and pirates. and to the pirates. I hope Verdes kicks your legal arse


I guess you and everybody else would rather him stop selling puzzles at reasonable prices to the public?

I know I would feel that way if people said those kind of things to me without knowing the whole story.



Excuse me???

If you can make them by yourself and using cheaper ways, please be our guest.
You cannot compare items manufactured by us, with items manufactured by chinese children with no pay.
(the situation is getting better, but those STILL exist)

Do you even KNOW how difficult it is to bring a puzzle to the mass market? Probably not.

There is a good reason why the European Union has banned many of the chinese products
as they do not comply with the anti-toxic regulations.

Of course the list is big, mobile phones, poisoned milk, they will not stop in anything but to earn money.
Do you support all these?


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:37 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
LewAshby wrote:
Drewseph wrote:
All I have to say to this news.

Meffert..... Why do you Betray us all? Why do you side with the theives and pirates. and to the pirates. I hope Verdes kicks your legal arse


I guess you and everybody else would rather him stop selling puzzles at reasonable prices to the public?

I know I would feel that way if people said those kind of things to me without knowing the whole story.



Excuse me???

If you can make them by yourself and using cheaper ways, please be our guest.
You cannot compare items manufactured by us, with items manufactured by chinese children with no pay.
(the situation is getting better, but those STILL exist)

Do you even KNOW how difficult it is to bring a puzzle to the mass market? Probably not.

There is a good reason why the European Union has banned many of the chinese products
as they do not comply with the anti-toxic regulations.

Of course the list is big, mobile phones, poisoned milk, they will not stop in anything but to earn money.
Do you support all these?


Pantazis


Please show me exactly where it says that I am able to bring puzzles to the mass market.

All I was saying - if you actually took the time to read my post - is that people are too busy jumping to conclusions (your post being a great example) without even knowing the whole story.

People are calling him a thief, saying that he has betrayed them, encourages piracy, posting links from "anonymous" sources that discredit him as a human being - and that is only this post alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:44 pm 
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LewAshby wrote:
Please show me exactly where it says that I am able to bring puzzles to the mass market.

All I was saying - if you actually took the time to read my post - is that people are too busy jumping to conclusions (your post being a great example) without even knowing the whole story.

People are calling him a thief, saying that he has betrayed them, encourages piracy, posting links from "anonymous" sources that discredit him as a human being - and that is only this post alone.


LOL thanks for marking my point.

I *did* intend to prove that *you* cannot bring a puzzle to the market, hence your inability to understand and assess the situation.
I always take enough time to read all posts, especially the two liners, like yours.

And jumping to conclusions? Do you *still* have doubts regarding what is happening here?
Stop the hypocrisy, especially as you admitted you *want* cheaper copies.

;)


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:57 pm 
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Arguments and legal issues aside, I believe at the very least that Meffert's means well. He's making the best out of a knockoff situation by at least offering some of the money back to the original inventors, whereas if you were to buy them off eBay (not that many/any of us would) then the inventors wouldn't get any of that money. Sure, it's still not right to be selling the knockoffs, but we must admit that he's at least doing something.

My point is, calm down and let's just wait and see what happens. For better or worse, we can still buy the originals.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:02 pm 
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SaiyanKirby wrote:
Arguments and legal issues aside, I believe at the very least that Meffert's means well. He's making the best out of a knockoff situation by at least offering some of the money back to the original inventors, whereas if you were to buy them off eBay (not that many/any of us would) then the inventors wouldn't get any of that money. Sure, it's still not right to be selling the knockoffs, but we must admit that he's at least doing something.

My point is, calm down and let's just wait and see what happens. For better or worse, we can still buy the originals.


Let me understand, taking ideas from inventors, according to you, is "doing something", right?

My point is, why all such comments supporting cheap copies are made by youngsters who have demonstarted in previous
threads that they have no ethics?

I think we all know the answer to that. Copiers are depending on people like you, that's for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:08 pm 
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I followed this thread the whole day and read all the different opinions, tried to follow the arguments.
I think everything was said now more or less clearly. There is only one way to find out, what's really behind this, what is the "whole story": ask Meffert for a clarification. Although his aims seem to be clear for some people, I'd like to get a statement from Meffert himself. All the rest is still in some way speculation.

I hope some of you have contacted Meffert already, I will try to do this now.
The more of us contact him, the better it is to show him that a statement is required.

Of course, you might say, why should he care about this forum here, just a couple of people,
but it were builders of this group who gave him the chance at all to present new puzzles in the first instance. He had nothing really new for ages. Creativity = zero. And, well, if he decides to copy any
puzzle he likes from now on, it will be difficult to stop him. But hopefully I and many of the people posting here are wrong. Pantazis, I guess you were the last of the forum members meeting him personally. Your impressions seemed not to show, he's an unreliable person.

So let's first ask the "accused" before judging.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Frank Tiex wrote:
I followed this thread the whole day and read all the different opinions, tried to follow the arguments.
I think everything was said now more or less clearly. There is only one way to find out, what's really behind this, what is the "whole story": ask Meffert for a clarification. Although his aims seem to be clear for some people, I'd like to get a statement from Meffert himself. All the rest is still in some way speculation.

I hope some of you have contacted Meffert already, I will try to do this now.
The more of us contact him, the better it is to show him that a statement is required.

Of course, you might say, why should he care about this forum here, just a couple of people,
but it were builders of this group who gave him the chance at all to present new puzzles in the first instance. He had nothing really new for ages. Creativity = zero. And, well, if he decides to copy any
puzzle he likes from now on, it will be difficult to stop him. But hopefully I and many of the people posting here are wrong. Pantazis, I guess you were the last of the forum members meeting him personally. Your impressions seemed not to show, he's an unreliable person.

So let's first ask the "accused" before judging.

Frank


I've e-mailed him twice to no responce.

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:19 pm 
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I think the whole idea of royalties, etc., should have been discussed privately before ever being announced to the public, even as a survey. Mr. Meffert knows exactly who those parties are, so there's no need to put out an email address for those manufacturers to contact him. This is in bad taste, but nothing compared to some of the things I've heard about what's to come from some others.


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Why don't you ask me Frank?


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:29 pm 
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Konstantinos are you going to share your opinion on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:31 pm 
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Shua wrote:
I've e-mailed him twice to no responce.


I really appreciate, you did this.
But I really do not expect a response today, maybe not even in the next days.
He might have different priorities (e.g. running a business).

NEWCUBES wrote:
Why don't you ask me Frank?


Oh sorry, maybe it was the same as with some others here. I was focused too much on Meffert. So please: let us know - what do you know about all this, have you been asked, have you already been thinking about your next steps?

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 Post subject: Re: Meffert's new puzzle offer 7x7x7 & Void
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:34 pm 
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Shua wrote:
I've e-mailed him twice to no responce.

Whoa that must be really bad then. How long ago did you mail him?

NEWCUBES wrote:
Why don't you ask me Frank?

And why don't you just answer (i.e. comment on the situation) while you're here anyway?


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