Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:00 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 100 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Situation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 1999 12:18 pm
Location: Palerang Shire, NSW, Australia
Hello All,

Sorry to have to post on such a disappointing issue. As may be evident, a small number of users have been removed from this forum. To clear up any confusion or rumour, a summary of the situation is as follows:

A particular member was banned because of his long history of bad conduct and manners towards other members of the forum. Despite many warnings and a previous banning (and reinstatement), this attitude continued.

After letting many incidents simply slide, I finally decided after a lot of consideration, that it would be better in the long term to close the user's account.

The user then contacted me via email clearly defiant regarding the manner which served to validate my decision.

What followed was an offline organised effort (presumably in a chat room or similar) to demonstrate the decision by supporting the user in sigs.

[removed]When each was asked to remove, each refused.[/removed]

There were several asked to remove the part in their sig. They refused. Then it became apparent (to me) that this was obviously orchestrated and that they were well aware of the bannings. For the sake of speed to restore some order, all further users performing the same act were banned.

Instead of respecting the decision, I witnessed this disappointing effort. When each refused, those accounts were suspended and remaining users from that group changed sigs to reflect the activity.

The pattern here was the same one used in the sagebomb incident and many of those involved are the same people.

While the decision is unpopular with the handful, I simply cannot allow underhanded tactics by an organised group to direct the decisions made on this forum.

One of my goals for twisty is to make it a friendly place and it certainly is nearly all of the time. Most people co-exist here and enjoy each others company.

Some have been banned for their part but were unaware that they would be banned, despite the similar situation regarding the sagebombing incident. Some accounts may be reviewed in light of this at some point in the future.

I hope those reading this understand why I have had to perform this action. My apologies to the friends of those affected by it.

_________________
Wayne Johnson (Developer)
http://waynejohnson.net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:42 pm
Location: Missouri, USA
Thanks for posting this. It answers all questions that I had had regarding this. By what I have seen this is what they have probably wanted to you to post.

TheAtarian1

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/TheAtarian1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:14 pm
Location: Orange County, CA
Yes, thank you for clearing this up. I respect your decision, but I will miss most of the banned members :(

_________________
-Garrett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:53 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Things are much more easily moderated in black and white :-)

It's a good service you're providing for free here. This is one of the two forums that I like to read through for puzzle news.

There's nothing worse than having to read through hundreds of posts where users are flaming or going wildly off topic. :evil: (that kind of crap is more suited to the Rubiks.com forum)

Tim.

_________________
3x3x3 Single: 16.02 | 3x3x3 Average: 21.90 | Magic Single: 1.11 | Magic Average: 1.23


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 6:14 am
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
I prefer to stay neutral on such matters, but I will say this.

It's easy, incredibly easy, to stay out of trouble. I feel bad for the people who were banned and for those who chose to follow a course of action to also be subsequently banned, but it was ridiculously easy not to get to that point in the first place.

_________________
http://chrono.org/puzzles.html
http://www.youtube.com/nechronius


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:11 am
Location: Oregon, USA
Silly me, I posted this other comment in the wrong thread.

Regardless, Jin H. Kim made a helpful observation. It took effort for the affected users to get into trouble, and active defiance of the moderator to get banned. It didn't just happen by chance.

I doubt the participants thought they were being malicious, but they acted to subvert the moderator on a moderated forum. A moderated forum just can't allow that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 1999 12:18 pm
Location: Palerang Shire, NSW, Australia
I have amended my comments above as I was a little inaccurate on one point in my haste to get the explanation up. Thanks everyone for your support today.

To those we lost today, I have nothing against any of them personally and I wish them all the best with their future puzzling and personal endeavors.

Let's get back to discussing what we love.

_________________
Wayne Johnson (Developer)
http://waynejohnson.net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:59 pm
Location: Mantua, Ohio
I have no idea what was going on to create this situation. I only read from three of the seven forum sections because of the problems. It has probably been a year and a half since I've looked in some of the other sections of this forum. I hope this proves to people in the future that being banned isn't worth pushing the moderator. I hope we didn't loose to many good members from a dumb reason. I hope they believed in the reasons for being banned.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:45 pm
God, I was naive on this one. I didn't notice any signature subterfuge. Probably for the best! A brave step you took in banning those members. I'm glad to see you are not afraid to take such action.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 4:19 am
Location: Manchester, UK
I didn't notice any of this either, so I'm quite bemused by the whole affair. Who reads sigs, eh?





___________________
God save the Queen! Reinstate National Service! Bring back flogging! (Etc.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:25 pm
Thanks for clearing this up, Sausage.
I still have one question, though: what was the "sagebomb incident"?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Jin H Kim wrote:
I prefer to stay neutral on such matters, but I will say this.

It's easy, incredibly easy, to stay out of trouble. I feel bad for the people who were banned and for those who chose to follow a course of action to also be subsequently banned, but it was ridiculously easy not to get to that point in the first place.


Well said, Jin. I had no idea something like this was going on, but really, if you're going to post on a forum, you need to respect the rules and the wishes of those in authority.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: California
this is one side of what i would call a discussion but in a totalitarian environment that isn't even the right word. honestly he's practically never around anyway, and he has arbitrarily chosen to remove kirjava just because he doesn't like him, and because kirjava wasn't willing to bow down and kiss his butt to get reinstated, when he hadn't done anything wrong since his last punishment. retroactive banning is an sheer sign of personal dislike.

telling people to change their signatures is a real oppressive move and its disgusting when someone is so drunk with power, they don't even let an opposing viewpoint speak out. the community lost some of the most prominent members because sausage wants to show off that he is all-powerful, what shame that he has to be so stuck on himself to bring harm to the community.

i say we should have a democratic forum (at this size it seems obvious to go that way) and elect a panel of 3-5 moderators that are responsible for such things, and bans/removals must be made among a majority of these people. wayne has served the community, but i think tp has grown too big for just one moderator to run it, and without checks and balances, power runs awry

i also find it funny my post about the situation was moved from general to the back burner in comments and suggestions, but his post regarding the same thing was smack in the general forum. the oppression is getting pretty bad, and i think its weak those of you that are licking butt, this time its kirjava, next time it could be you if he's able to just ban people for personal dislikes.

_________________
http://www.bigcubes.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: NY, USA
I understand your viewpoint, sausage, but please understand that a number of people, myself included, have become annoyed by a few of the newer users because of the way they act and the type of posts they make. I'm not going to name names but, when I see someone creating a large number of new topics without contributing any information to the community, I don't tend to regard them as helping the forum out as much as spamming it. There was a time when I read every topic in General Topics and Speedsolving, for instance, but nowadays there are so many redundant topics of people asking easily searchable questions that it is a waste of time to check topics that I don't already know I can learn something from. You may have seen how, when someone asks a question that can be easily searched, some of the members who've been around longer typically tell them that they should use the search function. The fact that this continues to happen - often - should be a clear signal that either the search function is wrong or that the veterans have a point when they complain about new users. When I joined this forum I didn't just go off and make 300 posts immediately; I read topics until I got a feel for the place before posting so that I'd fit in. I wish everyone did that.

A year or two ago, I think TP really was a better place, because almost every topic was about new developments, interesting discoveries, or unique and original puzzle modifications. We still have those, but there's a lot of other things to sort through these days, and even though I come here only once every few days I still only seem to have about 10 topics every time I visit that are worth reading through. I'm continually impressed by the brilliant puzzle builders who keep creating amazing new modifications, but the General Topics and Speedsolving forums just don't seem interesting to me anymore, even though that's a big part of what interests me about cubing. As an example I made a 6x6 and 7x7 patterns thread a while ago. I'm always glad to see activity there, but I've noticed that I have to regularly bump the topic with new patterns just so that it remains in the top page, even though it's a topic with a lot of new information that hasn't been posted in other places. I guess cool patterns just aren't as interesting as topics asking about what type of DIY cube to use for speedcubing.

What I'm saying is, this forum has gotten a lot less interesting in the last year or so, and I personally think that the older users who actively try to change the behavior of newer users have a good point. Yes, it's clearly wrong to flame others or curse, but I would prefer to see action taken about the users who ask hundreds of easily-answered questions, rather than users who have a lot of knowledge, experience, and puzzling skill to share.

_________________
My official times
My youtube
Puzzle Solving Service! - a puzzle that has never been scrambled and solved has been wasted.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:30 am
Location: Berlin, Germany
qqwref wrote:
I guess cool patterns just aren't as interesting as topics asking about what type of DIY cube to use for speedcubing.


If it makes you feel any better, I find the patterns very interesting, and I always check out the related posts. Other then "cool pattern", I don't have anything to contribute to that particular topic. :)

Sorry to stray from the topic.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: Wyoming
Ethan wanted me to post this, and since this thread discusses said situation, I guess it's appropriate. I am in no way affiliated with Ethan, and don't really care too much about this situation. I'm just doing a favor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ1sJ6iNsxI

_________________
"Without music, life would be a mistake"
- Friedrich Nietzsche


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:39 pm
Location: Portland, OR
qqwref (and other long-time members):

Apparently I'm the newest of the new users, so your comments were particularly interesting to me. I agree that asking unnecessary questions can take away from the experience of more seasoned members, so I have been reading voraciously while limiting my posts.

I'd like to offer another point of view on this as well. As the "new guy", I can search for answers in the forums, but the answers I get are by nature not interactive, they may lack details that experienced users take for granted, and they may use terms I don't understand. I am trying to bring myself "up to speed", but if I get stumped I might end up asking a stupid question once in a while.

Even if the reply to my questions is just a "see thread ___" response, I now have a way to ask for clarifications, etc. Posting the question and getting a response is also more human, more interactive. That's what makes a forum great. It isn't just about having access to an encyclopedia of knowledge about cubing, it's about community.

This brings me to an etiquette question: I wanted to know something about blind solving recently, so I found the most recent related post and asked my question. Someone pointed out that the thread was 6 months old. Am I better off bumping the old thread or starting a new one? I assume if I had started the new one someone would have probably referred me to the old one...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:25 pm
Moike raises some good points which I can't answer. I have another similar question, though: today I finished my first build that I am happy with (a fused cube, not bandaged but 2 cubes together). Should I post it in puzzle building? I didn't create a "unique and original puzzle modification". I'm not a "brilliant puzzle builders who keep creating amazing new modifications," but it is a build I am very pround of. Would that be a useless topic, even though it would give me a chance to show it off and I could get advice from more advanced builders?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Capital of Culture 2010
Moike wrote:
Am I better off bumping the old thread or starting a new one? I assume if I had started the new one someone would have probably referred me to the old one...

If it poses a question not answered before, it is ok to start a new thread or even necro a not too old thread.

cubefan8 wrote:
Would that be a useless topic, even though it would give me a chance to show it off and I could get advice from more advanced builders?

Simply. No.
If you have created a puzzle, feel free to start a topic about it if you seek advice from experienced builders.



Q

_________________
"This maze is so confusing." - Pinky


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:53 pm
Location: Los Angeles
If you tell us that you didn't want to start a new thread because what you were asking was pertinent to the current thread, or if you say that you started a new thread because the other threads were old and the conversation was dead, then people will usually leave you alone.
However, if you post "how u solv it so fast?" (this is, of course, an exaggeration) even in a thread about speedcubing, people will call you on it.

The absolute best thing you can do is show that some thought went into your question or post. Even if it's a question asked a hundred times, if you sound as though you've actually tried to find the answer (versus searching for the sole purpose of placating the more experienced) and still need help, then people are usually glad to answer, or at least send you a pertinent thread.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: California
does anyone have anything to say about my post, particularly the recopied part below?





i say we should have a democratic forum (at this size it seems obvious to go that way) and elect a panel of 3-5 moderators that are responsible for such things, and bans/removals must be made among a majority of these people. wayne has served the community, but i think tp has grown too big for just one moderator to run it, and without checks and balances, power runs awry

_________________
http://www.bigcubes.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:51 am
Location: Malibu, California
rxdeath, I am in 100% agreement with you, especially that last recopied part.

_________________
I am taking a break from the forum. You can reach me by PM if needed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
rxdeath wrote:
does anyone have anything to say about my post, particularly the recopied part below?





i say we should have a democratic forum (at this size it seems obvious to go that way) and elect a panel of 3-5 moderators that are responsible for such things, and bans/removals must be made among a majority of these people. wayne has served the community, but i think tp has grown too big for just one moderator to run it, and without checks and balances, power runs awry



I'll take a stab at a response...

Uhm, well who would we choose to be mod's? And until Sandy comes back - none of this can happen, whilst Sausage is a moderator - I'm not sure if he can actually make anyone moderator status (only Sandy can - unless he changes that option to let others make others mods).

It would make sense with the TP site becoming larger to make more people mods. However, rules are rules and they still need to be enforced. Like others said before - this site has it's own rules which we all have to abide by - just because some of us may live in a free world, those rules are different from this site.

I also believe that Sandy did want to make some people mods (none was chosen yet though). However, there were still a lot of things he wanted to do to the site first (as when he mentioned this, we just moved to the new servers/host and this site needed much work in updating). So until Sandy can be contacted and if he chooses to do so - we all have to wait.

(Sausage - no way am I trying to undermine you - just giving an opinion to rxdeath's statement/question).

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: California
well i think as a community the leaders and real contributors would end up being voted in. ie: i would personally think tony fischer would make a better mod: more participation and extreme skill at puzzle building would seem to make him a perfect choice. i'm sure there are many other substantial members, and if we had an election for 2/4 additional mods, those that have been most useful at the site will be elevated by the other members. a panel for administrative decisions i think is at least in order even if no additional power is to be given, a group that can vote on bans/restrictions, a balanced group of individuals that care about the site and its well being, and not just one person with totalitarian rule.

_________________
http://www.bigcubes.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
rxdeath wrote:
well i think as a community the leaders and real contributors would end up being voted in. ie: i would personally think tony fisher would make a better mod: more participation and extreme skill at puzzle building would seem to make him a perfect choice.



But at the same time - would HE have the time and energy to Moderator this forum?

I knew someone had voted for me in the past. While I am here throughout the day - most days of the week. I just simple can't take on that responsibility....


But - nonetheless - if we do get more mod's - we should go through a process and find out those who can and is up for it. :D

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:45 pm
Location: Rochester, MN
rxdeath wrote:
does anyone have anything to say about my post, particularly the recopied part below?


I think many people might not be responding for fear of having their accounts deleted also.

_________________
CubingUSA.com - Find other cubers, be notified of upcoming competitions, and more.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:24 pm
Location: Avondale, AZ
Like moike, I am also quite new to this forum and have generally kept my mouth shut, only responding when it's called for. What rxdeath had said struck a chord with me and I'd like the chance to weigh in with my own, albeit limited experience.

I'm also a site admin for a bird club, for which I created a forum for their needs. When I created it, I made myself a global mod, and made two trusted people in the club as moderators. The reason I did that was two-fold. 1) I wouldn't be able to be there even 50% of the time and 2) those two people would act as a check on me to advise if I somehow made a questionable judgement call. (One of the mods is my wife; can you think of any better devil's advocate?! ;) )

My point in all that: it's a good thing, even important, to have a check-and-balance system in any community. It's never good to have a central authority with no way to countermand.

_________________
My twitter name: chrisw357
My Flickr photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisw357/
My Dailybooth: http://dailybooth.com/chrisw357


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: California
reeech: agreed and its a valid point that no one has time to admin this site 100% of the time, including sausage. with a panel its very likely that SOMEONE will be around when needed and in cases of a ban type decision, a simple pm would probably suffice to those involved. its very doable, and no matter what shortcomings, it would make much more sense than how it is now

it should be noted i respect and honor wayne's awesome contribution to the world of twisty puzzles, but i don't think that is card blanche, or that one person should be jury, judge, and executioner, regardless. it should be an honor that this site has outgrown a single mod, i would be happy to have a site that required multiple admins to take care of.

and my previous posts should be noted as exaggerated a tad, while i think many decisions have been ridiculous, me not being banned yet does make me think sausage is open to talk, but it doesn't do much good when no one that can do anything about it is listening.

_________________
http://www.bigcubes.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
I'm new to the "situation" or whatever has been going on. I only check a few threads here and stay within the confines of what I know best.

But I have scanned through the posts on this thread and I mostly agree with the stuff said by Clancy/rxdeath and Michael/qqwref. I was a fairly active mod on another cubing forum, and can sympathize with the other side of the situation. But clearly the size of the community and the majority desires of it dictate that we need additional moderators. Speedsolving.com has a large system of moderators at various power levels to deal with just about any situation that arises. I think we can use their example and come up with something similar.

A major problem would be to find people who are even willing to moderate. Many people who would make great mods (if they had the time) aren't willing because they understand the amount of work that is involved. However, everybody has to do less if more moderators are appointed. Another problem is finding people you can trust, which is not too hard since the community has been around for long enough that people have developed reputations.

We need very active moderators, and so it would make sense to choose from the most active members. Although, choosing from those that have more seniority - have been round the longest and are above a certain age. A good tactic is to limit new moderators to their assigned sub-forum.


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:24 pm
Location: Carnegie Mellon
personally, I dont see anything wrong with the kind of civil disobedience that we saw in the signatures. I would also be very much in favor of making the reinstatement of some of those members a poll. Let the people decide if whether certain members are harmful


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:43 pm
Location: right here
rxdeath wrote:
does anyone have anything to say about my post, particularly the recopied part below?

i say we should have a democratic forum (at this size it seems obvious to go that way) and elect a panel of 3-5 moderators that are responsible for such things, and bans/removals must be made among a majority of these people. wayne has served the community, but i think tp has grown too big for just one moderator to run it, and without checks and balances, power runs awry

I am relatively new to this site, but I am not new to forums. I have run very successful sites/forums for the past 8-10 years, and years of modem-based BBS's before that. I can tell you a few things about forums...

1) You can not please everyone.
2) Too many chefs in the kitchen spoil the stew. (too many mods do the same thing)
3) This is NOT a democracy, despite what you may think. Yes, the community keeps it interesting, but at the end of the day, it's the owners and admins who control the site, so what they say goes.
4) You could always start your own site, and run it the way you want it run.
5) read number 1 again.

I recognize most of the names that were banned, and it's sad that they had to go, but I do recall several times that Sausage has asked people to stop ragging on the noobs, and harping on people. More than once, it has been stated, "if you don't like a topic, ignore it". That's too much for some people. Apparently a second and third warning are still not enough for some people. Arrogance sometimes gets in the way of better judgment on both sides of the fence. One or two bad apples can cause the whole batch to go bad. It was heading toward this. From the little I've read on this incident, it was very clearly stated what would happen if things didn't settle down.

I'm not trying to be cocky here, I'm replying to your request for a response. It's not easy to run a board, and it's even harder to keep it peaceful when you have personality clashes and people who are too persistent to let things go.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: California
i don't think you're cocky at all, and appreciate a little opposing view. however i ask you to consider some things:

1-without the community this site is nothing, so the will of the people should be fairly paramount to reasonable levels, once your site gets popular this is a fact of life you have to face that your site has outgrown you.

2-to continue with your example-- how many professional kitchens have just 1 cook?

3-as i stated in the comments forum, how is right for sausage to tell people 'if a post bothers you, ignore it' and then not follow the advice himself? if he doesn't like the topic or the signature of some, then don't read it, and until obvious rule breaking occurs, suck it up. personal feeling should never motivate a good moderator's hand.

_________________
http://www.bigcubes.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: NY, USA
Moike: I'm completely fine with people making a few new topics when they don't understand something, or posting their first puzzle build. What would be the best would be for someone to make a topic where they post all of their questions (rather than a new topic for each question), but of course you can't expect everyone to do that. Everyone has a period where they don't know things and ask lots of often-repeated questions; but if this period lasts someone's entire stay here, and they've been here for several months or longer, there is something wrong.

It becomes a problem when a user starts making dozens of new topics. If people get annoyed by the volume of topics created by a single user and repeatedly tell the user to stop making so many, it's clearly that user's fault for making so many topics, and even though they aren't breaking any rules they are definitely harming the community by carrying on like that. If we had enough admins/moderators, as rxdeath points out, someone would be moderating most of the time, so that the staff should be able to get the user to change their behavior before the criticizers get annoyed enough that flames break out. If nothing is done for months, it's entirely conceivable that a visiting moderator might just see a couple of members flaming one member and punish the criticizers. In a perfect world everyone would be able to ignore people they don't like, but in real life this is much easier said than done. Try getting work done or enjoying a movie with an annoying person standing next to you and constantly talking - I bet most of you can't.

Incidentally, I'd like to point out that there was a very large time period during which we had no admin or moderator at all. It's undeniable that the staff are in charge of keeping the site going smoothly, but they should realize that if they do not immerse themselves in the community they can't expect to know what's good for it (in the opinions of its own members). Although moderators have the right to do whatever they want, doing things that are against the wishes of most of the community's members may result in veteran members leaving twistypuzzles for good.

_________________
My official times
My youtube
Puzzle Solving Service! - a puzzle that has never been scrambled and solved has been wasted.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:22 pm
flambore has really valid points. I admin two forums right now and unfortunately notpleasing everyone is the case every single time. I feel bad that sausage had to make these decisions because its never easy. However everyone that has an issue with it will ether suck it up and deal with it or move on. Fact is, this is supposed to be a community of like minded people and not a place to flame or troll or instigate. All that stuff is easily served and satisfied at a number of communities, if you need to vent, let me know, I'll give you more places than you will ever need to be an internet tough guy.

I guess my point is, if people were warned and didn't comply to such a reasonable request to not instigate things through use of a sig, then so be it. I doubt these people really ever needed people sticking up for their internet namesake, at least I hope not.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:42 pm
Location: Missouri, USA
I thought that this should be in theb situation thread also. http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10508&p=116559#p116559

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/TheAtarian1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:24 pm
Location: Carnegie Mellon
This wouldnt be such an issue if the defaults for the search function were usefull

change them to "search for any terms" and "display results as topics" and then I doubt this will be as much of a problem




IMPORTANT!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:24 pm
Location: Carnegie Mellon
What was Pembo's final post count?

here's a little memoriam for him and all the time he spent on twistypuzzles.com/forum

Attachment:
399.jpg
399.jpg [ 2.76 KiB | Viewed 6701 times ]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:51 am
Location: Malibu, California
I don't know the exact number but it was over 4100

_________________
I am taking a break from the forum. You can reach me by PM if needed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
QUINBLZ wrote:
personally, I dont see anything wrong with the kind of civil disobedience that we saw in the signatures. I would also be very much in favor of making the reinstatement of some of those members a poll. Let the people decide if whether certain members are harmful

I didn't see them, but I probably would have been okay with it. But I can totally understand why a mod would be strict about subverting the moderator as VeryWetPaint pointed out. And if I was a mod I might have done something similar.

Anyhow, clearly there is great demand for people to be appointed as mods. It is obvious that two people isn't enough when there are 757 members here. In my experience, being active on dozens of different forums, the ones that do the best, the ones that flourish the most, while keeping people happiest are those with multiple moderators.

Hypothetically, if it were allowed I have several candidates in mind. I just went through the members list and came up with some viable recommendations to be voted on, if that is okay.

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:26 pm
Sorry, I know I'm a fairly new member, but I need to express my opinion.


I believe that there should be no such thing as a "permanent" ban. Everyone can change, especially these banned members. These people have always been some of the most helpful and friendly people on this board. I guess there's no changing the fact that they are currently banned, but I believe that this should just be a temporary "suspension."

I've seen much worse things slip past on this board that went unnoticed, MUCH worse than supporting Thom, or getting everyone on YouTube to ask to get the # back in his signature. This is a very small offense.

_________________
http://unkowntown.myminicity.com/
http://unkowntown.myminicity.com/ind


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 1999 12:18 pm
Location: Palerang Shire, NSW, Australia
Thanks to everyone for their comments today, and that includes everyone. To cAPSlOCKrOXX, rarely have my bans been permanent, and this policy hasn't changed. You are right that people can change.

Things will be a little longer for some, as this is their second banning, not their first. As for others, they jumped in in support of someone (but just in the wrong way) but they themselves never caused problems before.

So we'll see what happens down the track for some of these guys. The accounts are not deleted.

_________________
Wayne Johnson (Developer)
http://waynejohnson.net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:53 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
rxdeath wrote:
i say we should have a democratic forum (at this size it seems obvious to go that way) and elect a panel of 3-5 moderators that are responsible for such things, and bans/removals must be made among a majority of these people. wayne has served the community, but i think tp has grown too big for just one moderator to run it, and without checks and balances, power runs awry


Democracy is overrated. It doesn't apply to everything in life. You can get things done a hell of a lot faster without it and there's less arguments, i.e. idiots wasting time and money debating, when people can't have a say. Some arguments might have valid points, but if you're just trying to take over the "authority" then there's no debate there.

Sandy left someone they felt was suitable to be in charge. If you've been moderating something as long as he has alone then you should understand the lack of sympathy when a couple of users do what thousands of other have done before them on other forums. It's hard to tolerate that, and when it comes down to drawing the line - you've to get a message across (i.e. don't publicly insult the administration of a forum ON their forum).

Tim.

_________________
3x3x3 Single: 16.02 | 3x3x3 Average: 21.90 | Magic Single: 1.11 | Magic Average: 1.23


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
Although I don't know the full details of what happened I have known Sandy and Sausage for many years and consider both very fair minded people. I 100% support their running of this site and after all it is their site and not ours.
Despite being a huge supporter of democracy there are many things in life that simply can't work that way. For example In most work places a system of hierarchy is the norm.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: California
yeah but this is supposed to be fun, not work. and if it was you that was unfairly banned, you'd be singing a different tune. democracy prevails wherever its possible and this forum would definitely benefit from it. you can get more done without it? i say that a subjective statement that you really can't back up, i don't know what your idea of getting stuff done is, but usually more people working at something (until a overflow situation anyway) gets it done quicker. once this debate is over i'll be closing my account anyway because i don't want to participate/read/have anything to do with a forum that is run by such a heavy hand with unchecked power. ive received many emails from members saying they back my efforts, but many are scared to speak out because of the atmosphere of oppression, where you can banned for something as simple as a signature. i find it funny sausage refuses to acknowledge my post and respond to some of the things i said that others agreed with, like #3 in post above as well as people agreeing a check and balance system is needed.

_________________
http://www.bigcubes.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:45 pm
Location: Rochester, MN
Yes, it's Sandy's site. However, it's not just hosting a phpbb forum that made this site popular. It became popular because of it's user base and the knowledge they had.

It's kind of like someone donating land to let people build a park. Many people come together and volunteer their time and knowledge to make it a good place. If one day that person decided they wanted to change things radically one day and just kick out everyone he didn't like, would you simply go with the argument that "Well, it's his land, he can do what he wants."?

If sausage wants to exercise the option to take his ball and go home, I think the users should have the same option. Let them remove all their posts, so that the forum's value of knowledge won't include their contribution, since sausage doesn't want them here, his site shouldn't benefit from their knowledge.

_________________
CubingUSA.com - Find other cubers, be notified of upcoming competitions, and more.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:43 pm
Location: right here
rxdeath wrote:
once this debate is over i'll be closing my account anyway because i don't want to participate/read/have anything to do with a forum that is run by such a heavy hand with unchecked power. ive received many emails from members saying they back my efforts, but many are scared to speak out because of the atmosphere of oppression, where you can banned for something as simple as a signature

If you're dead set on leaving, why wait? Oppression. That makes me laugh. This is a web site. You can leave and you will no longer have to "suffer".

Quote:
i find it funny sausage refuses to acknowledge my post and respond to some of the things i said that others agreed with, like #3 in post above as well as people agreeing a check and balance system is needed.

As I've said before, this isn't a democracy. It's owned and operated by them, not you. Do you pay taxes? Do you chip in for the hosting costs or domain renewals? And don't tell me that by posting to the forum your contributions are what makes this site. The fact is that any one or two of us individually can leave and the site won't change much. If Sandy and Sausage leave, the site's gone. That's the difference.

Quote:
3-as i stated in the comments forum, how is right for sausage to tell people 'if a post bothers you, ignore it' and then not follow the advice himself? if he doesn't like the topic or the signature of some, then don't read it, and until obvious rule breaking occurs, suck it up. personal feeling should never motivate a good moderator's hand.

Because he runs the site. He has the right to see to it that everyone is following the rules and/or isn't causing trouble. If he ignores everything, then there will be unrest. This site is generally a peaceful site. He's trying to keep it that way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:15 pm
I've been here a while. Under a different screen name I was a member of TwistyMegasite's forum, which means that I have posts here that actually predate TwistyPuzzles.com. In that time I have no memory of a time when the forums were worse than they have been of late. This has nothing to do with newbies asking stupid questions. This has nothing to do with the V-cubes threads (though it was absurd how many of them there were.) It has to do with how people deal with these things.

The way that people handle these things are the worst here in my memory. I'm not saying that they're the worst they've ever been, my memory is quite bad. I am saying that it isn't useless posts that make me believe that the forum has declined, it is people responding to useless posts (in so doing bumping them and giving them life) to say that the posts are useless. It degrades the atmosphere here, it could very well drive away tomorrows productive members, it certainly doesn't help. Even more than that it's hypocritical, there is no post more useless than the post that says only, "That was a useless post."

A fairly significant historical figure once said, "Be the change you wish to see in the world." I think that is what should be practiced here. If you want to see a lack of useless posts you should stop making useless posts. If you want to stop useless threads from clogging up the front page stop bumping them.

A while back people did the opposite of that, the sage incident was an attempt to blackmail those in charge into bending to the will of a few members. They wanted a stronger authority overseeing the board and tried to bring that about by taking steps to weaken the authority overseeing the board, they wanted fewer useless posts so they made more useless posts. They wanted to make sure that useless threads wouldn’t litter the boards, so they bumped useless threads to the top. I still fail to see how they hoped to accomplish their goals by doing what they did.

I do not know the details of what happened here. It is possible that this is truly a sign that sausage has snapped and fallen into despotism. It is equally possible that everything he said is true. The sage incident is the single best example I can imagine of an organized group trying to direct the decisions made on a forum using underhanded tactics. Think of how easy it would have been to completely miss that.

I think what is truly significant here is that some people seem to oppose this action not because they believe it was inherently wrong but instead because the members are prolific. Being an experienced member doesn't mean you can ignore things like rules, etiquette, and basic human decency. It means you should be held to a higher standard because you’ve been around long enough to know better. Members should lead by example.

I think the biggest threat to this community is not new members who are being idiots, nor is it oppressive administration. It is veteran members who think they are entitled. Everyone needs to show decency, everyone. No exemptions for productivity or veteran status.

-

As a side note. Ordinary members can ignore any post or thread they do not like. Wayne can't. It is his job to keep track of all of the unlikable posts on the forum. A job for which he is not paid, and apparently a job for which he is not liked.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:43 pm
Location: right here
chris the cynic wrote:
A job for which he is not paid, and apparently a job for which he is not liked.

Or appreciated.

Well spoken-- all of it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:02 pm
I find it funny that the people who are posting in support of sausage are the ones who seem to know the least about what happened.

Guys, I've seen the email conversation between sausage and Thom. Thom was banned because sausage doesn't like him. That really is it. If that isn't true, then flambore should be banned, because like thom, Flambore opposed somebody else's view in a not so positive tone, which was the reason given for Thom's ban.

This really is a power trip, and I know of some senior members who have simply decided to essentially leave the forum. To quote one senior member that was in the #rubik chatroom last night and first learned about the bannings, "today is the day that twistypuzzles is essentially useless." Also, just look at Bryan's signature! Another senior member with no trust for sausage anymore.

-Ethan Rosen

ps. Don't bother banning this account, because as I have shown, there are many more people that I can speak through.

_________________
#


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Situation
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:15 pm
I want to clarify something. I do not know if Ethan was referring to me, I do not care. I just want to make this clear.

If what has happened had not happened I would still stand by what I said. The only part of my post that addressed the immediate situation was the three sentence block, "I do not know the details of what happened here. It is possible that this is truly a sign that sausage has snapped and fallen into despotism. It is equally possible that everything he said is true."

Everything else was something that I probably should have said before. We are less than we once were because we are less welcoming, less forgiving, and just plain less nice than we once were. A community is a body of individuals, if the community has declined, as I believe it has, it is because we have declined. Our decline is not a result of one person, not even a moderator. What was wrong predates this incident, even those who have been banned have spoken of our decline.

-

By the way, Ethan you are currently using underhanded tactics to undermine the admin's athority. If you are telling the truth, and it really started as a powertrip on Wayne's part it isn't any more. If you started out innocent you are no longer for you have become the very thing you were accused of being. Even if he was wrong you are in the process of retroactively proving him right.

If you want to prove that this was wrong, if you want to prove your point, take the high road. You come here without humility, I say this not because I believe I am some kind of god, but instead because it is clearly true. If you want to prove that Wayne is wrong show humility, show class, and show that you do obey the rules.

You can prove him wrong, but if you keep up as you are you will instead prove him right.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 100 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group