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 Post subject: Building a 3x3x5
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:17 pm 
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Making a functional 3x3x5 was always on my "to-do" list but I always dragged my feet on it. Thanks to rastarubik from the Spanish forums however I decided to make a little Christmas present for myself, even if it was a day late.

Here's the direct web link to the puzzle. The page isn't quite finished yet (no stickered pictures yet) but it'll eventually go along with the rest of my custom puzzles page.

http://chrono.org/puzzles/3x3x5.html

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:33 pm 
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Great looking puzle, Jin. Thanks for the instructions.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:05 pm 
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Great! Thanks Jin.

we have the same keyboard i noticed....


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:06 am 
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I always used to buy the crappiest, cheapest keyboards that money can buy. I used to have a great tendency to break them in half (in fits of rage... long story...) so I always kept a small supply of keyboards at the ready. Nowadays I still use the cheap keyboard because I'm always working on somehting at my computer desk and invariably dirty up the keyboard. Look closely and you can see just how grubby it is.

I keep a separate clean keyboard in a backpack for when I go to LAN parties. Or when I USED to go to LAN parties anyway. Man, it's been a long Time...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:42 pm 
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Very good job Jin!

I like your idea and your way to build it!

I will build it soon..........

As soon as I finish my university year....... :):):):)

Thanks very much


Last edited by David Calvo on Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:47 pm 
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Location: Montreal, Canada
Thanks for the plan, I'm giving it a try. Can the plastic sheet part be pretty loose?

Any chance you could show some closeups of the pieces? The corners :D

-A


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:29 am 
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Yes the plastic sheet part can be pretty loose. In fact, when it comes to the plastic sheet part it's better to be a bit undersized than oversized. If it's oversized the pieces could bind somewhere while on the track and cause a sheet to break off, especially the weaker corners.

The corners themselves need some consideration. It's certainly not enough to secure the corner sheets with just super glue. It will not hold up to rigorous use. That's why I used a bit of epoxy to fill the gap that is created from cutting down the piece. As I stated in the how-to section, you might be better off melting and filling in the spot with extra plastic, as that should ultimately create a strong molecular bond if you do it carefully enough. Of course you risk melting and warping the plastic and ruining the alignment...

I took one final picture and included some notes. Look at my instructions and scroll all the way down to the bottom. I also took rastarubik's advice and lightened up the pictures a little so they are not so dark.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:39 am 
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Thanks Jin, now photos are very clear and very fine!

Nice Job!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:45 pm 
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If someone was ambitious enough they could probably do this to all 6 faces and make an octahedron or rhombic dodecahedron, Ton Dennonbrook style.

I don't think I'll be the one to do it, but it is an idea....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:49 pm 
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It is certainly possible. A standard 3x3x5 actually isn't very meaningful. At least not to me. Since the tips rely on every other piece also being on the same plane in order to make a slice, you can't arbitrarily scramble the outside layers. It was certainly a good exercise and a way to practice some puzzle making skills however.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:22 pm 
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If you are going to extend all the faces, it might be easier to just remove the coreners from a 5x5x5 ;)

Thanks for the extra pictures, mine is coming along slowly (glue). Much faster with the "Dremel type" kit I bought yesterday :D

I have one side roughed out but very fragile for now :)

It seems like your cube has thicker plastic; the fit of the two edges seems very nice and snug. Have you built up the plastic?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:53 pm 
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The cubes I used are standard blank cubes from rubiks.com that were purchased in bulk from Mark Longridge not too long ago. I employed 1/8" thick ABS plastic sheets for the feet. I always cut less than I intend to and keep fitting the part I need while removing material slowly. At first it's almost painstaking, but once you get a feel for how deep you can cut, the pieces move along quickly. Once fitted if I think that the pieces are a bit too tight I use a small flat hobby file to gently loosen up the tolerances a little. I want pieces to be snug but they must move freely. Otherwise once you assemble the puzzle if you have to force the extra layer to turn you will probably end up snapping the feet off of the corners.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:22 am 
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I have a working extended layer.

I went off track at the start (over cuts), so it isn't exactly how you explained to do it.


I think I will try your method again. What kind of tools do you use for the various cuts? What kind of saw/jig do you use to get all the cuts equal?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:51 pm 
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The only tools I used were a Dremel and a small flat hobby file. For the Dremel the primary bits were the drum sander and a cutting wheel. I also did use a box cutter blade for trimming down epoxy and for rounding off square edges of the feet. I suppose there is the use of the compass to initially draw the guide lines, but I used the lines mainly as a shape guide and not necessarily the border of where I could cut to. The only way to know that for sure was to undercut and then slowly remove more material.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:12 am 
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I went and got a file ...

I've got a working puzzle :D:D

Its a bit different, I opend the sides of the pieces instead of making a simple slot. To keep the extending pieces snug, I put some wedges under the tops.

Its far from perfect and i didn't follow the instructions ver well :oops: but still pretty good for my first complex (not just glue) build.


I used 4 arched centers for the non extended side and flat centers for the 2 extended ones.
I made a round center, but eventualy didn't need it, I use the normal square center; after filling in the extension edge pieces, the square center even adds stability to the extended side when turning.

To fill the centers, I just glued a solid cubie to the center cap, no extra screw or cutting :)


I think if I could some how connect the extending edges under the the base center it would be a lot more stable, but there is very little clearance for the corners. I opened up the 5x5x5 again, it uses a really extended corner and edge which form a track.


Thanks for the inspiration and basic idea :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:47 am 
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AndrewSeven wrote:
I went and got a file ...

I've got a working puzzle :D:D


Congratulations!

Quote:
Its a bit different, I opend the sides of the pieces instead of making a simple slot. To keep the extending pieces snug, I put some wedges under the tops.

Its far from perfect and i didn't follow the instructions ver well :oops: but still pretty good for my first complex (not just glue) build.


Yes, that's one of the issues I encountered with the 3x3x5 which I neglected to mention. Putting a small wedge underneath the edge pieces may actually be desirable instead of relying on the sides. Depending on how big/small the feet are, it's possible for the corner pieces to "pop up" out of alignment and seize the puzzle. It's easily remedied by just pushing the piece down and it doesn't always happen, but using wedges will eliminate the possibility. In my case a 1/8" piece of plastic very lightly sanded did the trick.

Your puzzle might be a little rough and you certainly had no obligation to follow my guidelines. It's always good to take that first step further than before.

Quote:
I used 4 arched centers for the non extended side and flat centers for the 2 extended ones.
I made a round center, but eventualy didn't need it, I use the normal square center; after filling in the extension edge pieces, the square center even adds stability to the extended side when turning.

To fill the centers, I just glued a solid cubie to the center cap, no extra screw or cutting :)


You're absolutely right. I realized after the fact that I had in a sense "overengineered" the puzzle. There's little reason to make the layer 1/5 center cube rotate independent of the layer 2/4 center. If anything it can cause the puzzle to bind up later when rotating.

When I initially created it I was assuming that the layer 1/5 pieces would need to rotate around independent of the layer 2/4 centers, but this was an incorrect assumption since the extensions of those pieces are being supported by the 2/4 center anyway, which will rotate around independent once the cuts are made to clear the extensions for 1/5.

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I think if I could some how connect the extending edges under the the base center it would be a lot more stable, but there is very little clearance for the corners. I opened up the 5x5x5 again, it uses a really extended corner and edge which form a track.


Thanks for the inspiration and basic idea :D


I considered extending the feet for the 1/5 corners back toward the center, but that went against the "simplest method" principle which inspired this exercise. You certainly have refined it to the simplest method with your changes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:21 am 
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I just have to buy all the stuff needed and then i'll start building mine :)

Could you take some pics of all the modified pieces separate? :S I have some trouble seeing how the pieces will look like in the end :D

And the wedge you're talking about, I don't understand what you mean with that :D

PS. I'm thinking about buying white cubes for this project :) just to be special :D DS.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:18 pm 
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I'm not sure you want to build it like I did, better to get the right sheet of plastic.

From what Jin posted, I would say the only thing to change is not making a round center piece.

The careful cuts he makes in the sides of the extended side are the same size (I overcut at the beginning) as the sheet he uses to make the little feet on the extending pieces. This makes for a close fit which I did not have.

I had to add some little wedges inside the extended side to make up for the overcuts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:21 pm 
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I finally got off my lazy butt and updated the 3x3x5 page with the small improvements to the puzzle design. Thanks again to AndrewSeven for the changes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:50 pm 
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Does anybody know how one of these puzzles would be solved (3x3x5)?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:04 pm 
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Well I have a 3x3x5 that I've never really scrambled it because it turns terribly (like a brand new Alexander Star that has a TicTac stuck in it... lol). But i assume it would go something along these lines.
1) Get it back to shape
2) put all the 1st and 5th layer cubies "over" their respective 2nd and 4th layer ones
3) Solve the remaining 3x3

Thats how I solve my 2x2x4.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:11 pm 
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Scott Bedard wrote:
Well I have a 3x3x5 that I've never really scrambled it because it turns terribly (like a brand new Alexander Star that has a TicTac stuck in it... lol). But i assume it would go something along these lines.
1) Get it back to shape
2) put all the 1st and 5th layer cubies "over" their respective 2nd and 4th layer ones
3) Solve the remaining 3x3

Thats how I solve my 2x2x4.


Haha that's the tricky part... At least for me... cuz I'm still trying to figure it out....

What are some good algorithms to get the 1st and 5th layers in their respective places?
I know for a fact once you get that done, you can solve it like a regular 3x3x3 even if they get out of shape, as long as the layers are in their respective places.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:20 pm 
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Yea, once you finish step 2, you've effectivly made an Extended 3x3. As for algorithms, i have none right now. If you wanted to make some, goto speedcubing.com and find that applet for creating algorithms, and enable the following moves

R2 L2 F2 B2 U U' U2 D D' D2

That should help you make all the algorithms you'll need, and im out of idea's if you still need help.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:23 pm 
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Thanks, Yeah I'm going to have to check that out...

I need to figure it out if I want to mix up the 2x2x6 you're making :D

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:28 pm 
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Once the shape step (#1) is complete, do you thinnk that it is possible to solve the 1/5 layers like a domino (2x3x3) while ignoring the middle three layers?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:28 pm 
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Heh, yea, you'll have fun with it.

My solution for the 2x2x6 is like this.
1) get puzzle to shape
2) turn puzzle into a 2x2x4 by putting the 1st and 6th layer pieces over their respective 2nd and 5th layer pieces
3) turn the puzzle into a 2x2 by putting the 2nd and 5th layer pieces over their respective 3rd and 4th layer pieces
4) solve the remaining 2x2

It takes a while though, im sure you could come up with a faster one.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:35 pm 
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cuboholic wrote:
Once the shape step (#1) is complete, do you thinnk that it is possible to solve the 1/5 layers like a domino (2x3x3) while ignoring the middle three layers?


Theoretically, I'm thinking so... but with a bit limited algorithms... why? Because some twists/turns you can do - say you turn on layer 90 degrees... that layer will not intersect with another layer making it impossible to twist.

For example, you have the puzzle standing up right. The 3x3 on top the 5 layers going up and down. You turn the Right side 90 degrees. You then can't turn the top or bottom layer now. So it gets tricky.

I wanted to ask Tony about this a long time ago (as he was the one whom I bought my 3x3x5 from)... but he said he doesn't really know solutions/algorithms to many puzzles. He just likes building them, so I was on my own to trying to figure this out.

So I have a few puzzles I still haven't solved that he made :( (the 3x3x4, 4x4x5, 2x3x4) I'm trying to solve the Domino as well, as I know this will have a base solution I can work from... (I do have a 2x3x3 and a 2x2x3 - but those were made from Mark Longridge)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:41 pm 
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Since when do you solve a domino with 90 degree turns of that kind?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:31 pm 
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I'd solve them all like a domino.

But like this... (Assuming you only used U,u,D,d,R2,L2,F2,D2 turns)

(3x3x5)

1) Solve middle layer (not hard)
2) Solve layers 2&4 with a dominoe solution.
2.5) Fix possible center layer parity (I think) ---------( [Uu]2 R2 )*3
3) Solve layers 1&5 with a dominoe solution. (Keep middle three layers together)
3.5) Fix possible center 3 layers parity (I think) ---- ( U2 R2 )*3

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:24 pm 
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StefanPochmann wrote:
Since when do you solve a domino with 90 degree turns of that kind?


Pardon, I may not be using the correct terms :oops:

Rubik Dominio is a 3x3x2 correct? If you look at it from above it's a 3x3 with only two layers.... so say you turn the top layer 90 degrees is what i was referring to. Does that make sense? Or is the degree number not correct? I'm pretty much referring to a quarter turn.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:26 pm 
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yea, a domino is a 3x3x2

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:13 am 
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Hi Jim,
excellent puzzle, my compliments, how much time did you spent to realize it? I want to realize it too, but I don't know if I 'm able to do such excellent puzzle as yours.....again my compliments, sincerly, Fabio.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:03 pm 
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Thank you for the compliment. I don't remember exactly how long it took to make this puzzle. I think it took about 12 hours, not counting the Time waiting for epoxy to dry.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:20 pm 
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I use milliput mostly, and I can get it to set completely in 20 minutes. Just put the piece under a heat lamp, about 5 inches from the bulb. 20 minutes later, rock hard.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:30 am 
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Letting the epoxy dry isn't a problem. Using a putty would have resulted in MORE active labor time. With epoxy it was: 1. tape. 2. mix. 3. pour. 4. untape when dry.

With a putty you have to 1. mix. 2. apply. 3. shape. 4. shape. 5. shape. 6. sand.

Trust me, this is a case where using epoxy is superior to putty.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:17 pm 
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Jin, what did you use to cut the abs sheet?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:53 pm 
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Primarily I use a bandsaw to cut the large sheets into manageable chunks before I shape them on my disc sander. Occasionally I use a razor saw for finer cutting if I need to.

For the 3x3x5 you can employ a razor saw and sand paper pretty effectively.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:16 am 
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Is this method extendable to the 4x4x4 for a 4x4x6 puzzle? I find that the 3x3x5 is a little bit boring to solve.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:16 pm 
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Theoretically, and Tony Fisher did apply the technique, though he later says in the following article that functionality is poor.

download.php?id=2587


Apok


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