Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:06 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 176 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I would like to see a picture of the puzzle in midturn while partially disassembled, so that I could try to diagnose the problem.
I understand the problem. I think the only piece I'd need to remove for you to see what I mean would be a 5x5x5 arm piece.[/quote]
E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
I suggest thickening the center slice,
Not a viable option. See my post above. It would severely compromise the 3x3x3 corners and make the smallest piece in the puzzle even smaller.
E-Cubes Designer X wrote:
but you could also put grooves in the inner layer like a void cube, to make the centers link to the + pieces better.
Yes... a very similar idea came to me last night. It would require changing more then 2 pieces though so I may save that for version 3 if version 2 doesn't work. The biggest problem I see with this idea is that it could make the puzzle even more complicated to assemble. Hmmm... and I just had an idea that may solve that issue too.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:50 am
Location: The Netherlands
Carl, I already thought you were awesome.

wwwmwww wrote:
(...) As Adam Savage has stated "Failure is always an option." (...)


Now I'm sure! :lol: Sometimes, quoting Adam Savage is just the best thing to do! :wink:

_________________
- Eric


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Brandon Enright wrote:
Goo Gone uses a hydrocarbon solvent (mineral spirits). Use lighter fluid or something similar so you don't have to deal with the oily citrus in Goo Gone.

Next time use blue painters tape. Even that though leaves some marks but much less than what you show.

For what it's worth, I made a video on removing stickers and goo from ABS pieces at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH1zIFo4CDg. The mineral spirits dissolved the goo and removed it without manual labor. I don't think mineral spirits will affect the puzzle dye much or at all. The rough surface of WSF is definitely going to complicated the residue removal though. Soaking the puzzle in mineral spirits for a few hours and then brushing with something like a toothbrush might be needed.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Brandon Enright wrote:
For what it's worth, I made a video on removing stickers and goo from ABS pieces at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH1zIFo4CDg. The mineral spirits dissolved the goo and removed it without manual labor.
Thanks Brandon. I had seen this video before. Great video by the way. Above you mention Lighter Fluid and for some reason the only thing that popped into my head initially was cigarette lighter fluid. Having never smoked I didn't know if they sold bottles for refilling cigarette lighters or not but it dawned on me that charcoal lighter fluid was likely what you meant and that is what I got and it worked great. By the way, in your video you didn't use acetone but I have tried that on SW&F and I can confirm it doesn't work though the acetone does not harm the nylon.

I'm now curious... what is the difference between cigarette lighter fluid, charcoal lighter fluid, and mineral spirits? I did a quick google on the subject and I saw one site that said charcoal lighter fluid was refined mineral spirits. Hmmm... my background is physics and my chemistry is rusty but my guess is they are all a mix of very similar hydrocarbons. They are probably a byproduct of the process used to make gasoline.

Anyways here is a set of pictures I just took.

Attachment:
Turn1.png
Turn1.png [ 276.58 KiB | Viewed 1541 times ]

Attachment:
Turn2.png
Turn2.png [ 300.77 KiB | Viewed 1541 times ]

Attachment:
Turn3.png
Turn3.png [ 253.66 KiB | Viewed 1541 times ]


Enjoy,
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
wwwmwww wrote:
Brandon Enright wrote:
For what it's worth, I made a video on removing stickers and goo from ABS pieces at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH1zIFo4CDg. The mineral spirits dissolved the goo and removed it without manual labor.
Thanks Brandon. I had seen this video before. Great video by the way. Above you mention Lighter Fluid and for some reason the only thing that popped into my head initially was cigarette lighter fluid. Having never smoked I didn't know if they sold bottles for refilling cigarette lighters or not but it dawned on me that charcoal lighter fluid was likely what you meant and that is what I got and it worked great. By the way, in your video you didn't use acetone but I have tried that on SW&F and I can confirm it doesn't work though the acetone does not harm the nylon.

I'm glad it work. You're right that I meant charcoal lighter fluid. Cigarette lighter fluid (usually butane) would have worked well too but it would have been a lot more expensive to get at high quantities. Gasoline would have worked too but with all of the other additives for car engines and the ethanol it would be both less safe and less effective.

I didn't include acetone in my video because it would have destroyed the parts. You can't really test if it removes stickers if the parts the stickers are stuck to dissolve. Also, you're right that acetone does a terrible job of dissolving sticker adhesive.

Acetone does have a tiny effect on WSF though. I soaked some WSF parts encased in superglue in acetone for about a week and it made the nylon a tiny bit softer and more flexible. Once dry it went back to normal with no adverse effects though.

wwwmwww wrote:
I'm now curious... what is the difference between cigarette lighter fluid, charcoal lighter fluid, and mineral spirits? I did a quick google on the subject and I saw one site that said charcoal lighter fluid was refined mineral spirits. Hmmm... my background is physics and my chemistry is rusty but my guess is they are all a mix of very similar hydrocarbons. They are probably a byproduct of the process used to make gasoline.

Well this is awfully complicated. "Hydrocarbons" are hydrogen + carbon molecules. They come in a few forms, ones with rings (and sometimes oxygen atoms) and ones without rings that form long chains or other interesting geometric structures. The really light ones tend to be a gas and generally gets lumped together into the term "natural gas".

Some of the commonly known hydrocarbons are methane, propane, butane, octane, etc.

The thing is, they're all pretty flammable and they're all pretty similar solvents. Because they have such similar chemical properties it's really hard to separate them from each other. One way to separate them is to put them in a centrifuge and separate them by weight. Because of this, the lower mass hydrocarbons like methane and propane and others are often called "light hydrocarbons". Usually when you look at the MSDS it isn't terribly specific about which because separating them out and determine the exact concentration of each is costly and mostly unnecessary. Mineral spirits is just a mix of all of the light ones. The same is true of most charcoal lighter fluids.

So basically any hydrocarbon would work for you. Whether it's "white spirit" or "mineral spirits" or "lighter fluid", it's all going to basically behave the same way as a good solvent for sticker goo.

Also, for what it's worth, WD-40 is mostly just a bunch of hydrocarbons mixed together with mineral oil.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:50 pm
Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas
Yay, it works! I enjoy seeing successful designs, especially ones like this. Great job, Carl! :D

_________________
For all of you that bought a KO 8x8x8: You should have bought a V8!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
Yay, it works! I enjoy seeing successful designs, especially ones like this. Great job, Carl! :D
You are too trusting... Its close. But I need to order a few re-designed parts first. At the moment I can turn some of the center circles by hand to show what it should look like.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
All,

I'm LONG overdue for an update. Sorry about that. G4G11 put be behind at work and then a few issues at work went south and I had to work the last 2 weekend. So I took Friday off and have been playing with puzzle stuff this weekend.

(1) The current prototype is turning smoother and smoother but the center circle still turns when it shouldn't. Though it can now be turned by hand on most faces. I believe the new 3x3x3 and 5x5x5 arm pieces first shown here will fix this problem. They've been ordered and they went to the Shapeway printers on April 29th.

(2) A video of my talk on this subject at G4G11 has now been uploaded to YouTube.
G4G11 Video

(3) Even though I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get the current design to work, another design popped into my head about a week before G4G11. I've hinted at a complete redesign here and notice the comment I make at 6:51 in the video. Even at G4G11 I got a few comments from Bob Hearn and others as to why I picked this particular projection of the Real5x5x5. Why didn't I simply put a 3x3x3 on the inside and drill holes in the outer 5x5x5 pieces to allow the 5x5x5 to be seen. The answer was two fold. First I didn't see a way to make the Real5x5x5 until I saw the image Matthew Sheerin first posted Oct. 5, 2010. I'm also rather enamored of circle cubes and I did want to bring all the pieces to the surface. Bob Hearn even went on to mention that he had made a 5x5x5 which was built up from a 3x3x3 back in the 80's that still had a fully functional 3x3x3 on the inside, even if it didn't turn very well. I had been thinking I was the first to do that with my DoDep puzzles. Looks like I'm 3 decades late. Bob if you still have that puzzle, I'd LOVE to see it.

Well I started on the complete redesign on Friday and I just finished it this morning. Here is the "different outward appearance" that I've had in my head since about a week before G4G11.
Attachment:
Real5x5x5Take2.png
Real5x5x5Take2.png [ 227.38 KiB | Viewed 1264 times ]

Here is a face on view.
Attachment:
Real5x5x5Face2.png
Real5x5x5Face2.png [ 37.01 KiB | Viewed 1264 times ]

All layers are 7.5mm thick except for the face layers. And the total puzzle is 80mm x 80mm x 80mm just like the original prototype.
The core is simply a shapemod of a 3x3x3. Here is what that looks like.
Attachment:
Real5x5x5Core2.png
Real5x5x5Core2.png [ 364.27 KiB | Viewed 1264 times ]

And here is my favorite piece in the puzzle.
Attachment:
Chess.png
Chess.png [ 129.8 KiB | Viewed 1264 times ]

It makes me think of a cross between a chess piece, a tiki statue, and a totem pole all with sort of an alien flair. I can make out a big nose, a mouth and teeth, a large swept back forehead, and of course those big eyes.

Enjoy,
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 12:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
Perhaps this is a serendipitous self portrait :lol: ! I enjoyed the video, it's nice to put a face to the name. And sometimes it takes someone with passion, vision and ability to bring into reality a puzzle like this. As regards the complete re-design, well as an engineer I always remember this advice I was given (too) many years ago: the first solution is very rarely the best one.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:54 am
Really enjoyed that video, Carl! So much more respect for you and what you've been working on for so long. I hope that I can own one of these before too long 8-)

_________________
Youtube Twisty Puzzling
Blogger Twisty Puzzling - Simple Solutions for Puzzling Twisties
Tutorials: Pitcher Octo-Star Cube | GERANIUM | Wheel of Wisdom


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:57 am
Location: In my study drooling over my puzzle hoard - Precioussssss!
At last! Thanks to the video, I finally understand the concept!

Whilst part of me shudders at the thought of solving a 3x3 inside a 5x5, I really want one of these! The only thing to hope for is that Calvin might mass produce it :lol: as the Shapeways cost will be astronomical!

Good luck with fixing the final issues!

_________________
Kevin
Hopelessly addicted to puzzles!! :oops:
Visit my blog: Puzzlemad


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
It is finally ALIVE!!!!

http://youtu.be/xE6AVtT5E38

Once I get it stickered and some better light I'll make another video and take some nice pictures.

I've been working on putting a 3x3x3 inside a 5x5x5 off and on since November 2006. This is my third design and I finally have a puzzle that works as intended. I haven't given up on the second design yet but this design is far simpler and it does a wonderful job.

The notion of a 3x3x3 inside a 5x5x5 was first published in a Cubism For Fun (CFF) article called Hidden Cubes by Tony Fisher in July 1989. The first simulator which would let you play with and solve this puzzle was the CubixPlayer2 program made by Per Kristen Fredlund and released in April 2004. To my knowledge this is the first physical/functional version of this puzzle. The final assembly was completed June 15, 2014.

Enjoy...
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Last edited by wwwmwww on Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:54 am
Fantastic stuff, Carl! Congratulations. :D Talk about a labour of love...

_________________
Youtube Twisty Puzzling
Blogger Twisty Puzzling - Simple Solutions for Puzzling Twisties
Tutorials: Pitcher Octo-Star Cube | GERANIUM | Wheel of Wisdom


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Bedford, England
It looks great! Awesome to see it fully working, I look forward to seeing it stickered :D

_________________
My youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/martywolfman?feature=plcp Now in 1080p HD!

Latest videos: Unboxing Burgo's incredible Crazy 2 Face B4 kit, Calvins 2x4x6


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:20 am
Location: Wherever
Wow! Now I have to ask, could you make a 6x6x6 with the inner 4x4x4 visible, and the 4x4x4 has the inner 2x2x2 visible?

_________________
A budding puzzle designer!

Check out my Shapeways shop!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
Excellent Carl, I can't wait to see it stickered.
rubikcollector123 wrote:
Wow! Now I have to ask, could you make a 6x6x6 with the inner 4x4x4 visible, and the 4x4x4 has the inner 2x2x2 visible?
And since most 2x2x2s use a 3x3x3 as an internal mechanism ...

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:03 pm
rubikcollector123 wrote:
Wow! Now I have to ask, could you make a 6x6x6 with the inner 4x4x4 visible, and the 4x4x4 has the inner 2x2x2 visible?
Who is going to frame the Framed Cube (https://www.shapeways.com/model/122339/framed-cube.html)? :-)

Oskar

_________________
Oskar's home page, YouTube, Shapeways Shop, Puzzlemaster, and fan club
Image.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
rline wrote:
Congratulations.
Thank you very much.
martywolfman wrote:
=Awesome to see it fully working, I look forward to seeing it stickered :D
Thanks... I just made the sticker template last night so give me a few weeks.
rubikcollector123 wrote:
Wow! Now I have to ask, could you make a 6x6x6 with the inner 4x4x4 visible, and the 4x4x4 has the inner 2x2x2 visible?
I believe I could using a similiar mechanism however I see a couple potential problems.
(1) This Real 5x5x5 is 80mm on an edge and is already going to be a rather expensive model. The Real 6x6x6 would need to be even larger and I could see it easily being 2 or 3 times as expensive.
(2) Unlike the first Real 5x5x5 design this one only has 6 screws. I can properly tension the inner 3x3x3 but I have no way to tension the outer 5x5x5 at the moment. All works but I can tell the outer 5x5x5 is looser then it ideally should be. Nothing in in danger of popping but it can catch it alignment isn't well maintained. A real 6x6x6 I think would be even worse if you could just tension the inner 2x2x2.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Gus wrote:
Excellent Carl, I can't wait to see it stickered.
Ordering stickers now...

http://oliverstickers.com/carl-s-real-5x5x5.html
Gus wrote:
And since most 2x2x2s use a 3x3x3 as an internal mechanism ...
Technically that isn't quite correct. Most 2x2x2's use a Fused Cube as the internal mechanism. The only 2x2x2 that I'm aware of that doesn't is this one. And that isn't even a 2x2x2 though its easy to see how it could be. Neither of these mechanism pieces wouldn't be in a Multi-6x6x6 so which ever mechanism I used for a Real6x6x6 it would be hidden inside the 2x2x2.
Oskar wrote:
Who is going to frame the Framed Cube (https://www.shapeways.com/model/122339/framed-cube.html)? :-)
This is still my favorite Real4x4x4 if you don't mind me calling it that. If you have one at IPP I'll be very tempted. Will this approach actually support an outer 6x6x6, while still seeing enough of the inner 2x2x2 and 4x4x4 to solve those as well? Have you ever considered putting a 3x3x3 inside a 5x5x5 with this approach?

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
I have another video for everyone...

http://youtu.be/QTmDN4pKe-0

Enjoy,
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:40 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Awesome!!! :D

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:14 am
Location: Slovenia
Amazing puzzle! I love to see it stickered!


:D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Valentin wrote:
Amazing puzzle! I love to see it stickered!
3 of the six sides have been stickered. I'll get the last 3 sides next weekend and start a thread in the New Puzzles section once its finished. The longer I play with it the better it turns. Its already better then I ever expected it to be.

Attachment:
Pic1_small.png
Pic1_small.png [ 356.85 KiB | Viewed 393 times ]


Enjoy,
Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:14 am
Location: Slovenia
Great!
I would love to see this puzzle mass produced ! :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Valentin wrote:
Great!
I would love to see this puzzle mass produced ! :)
So would I. The Normal NxNxN puzzles seem set to be mass produced up to the 15x15x15. The Multi-NxNxN puzzles have already been mass produced up to the 4x4x4 so it would seem likely the Multi-5x5x5 should be mass produced eventually. Not sure this is the one that will make it though as the other design is more strait forward. I also now have an idea for a third Real 5x5x5 in my head which I'll try to work on after IPP.

Stickering this thing to my satisfaction has taken 2 weekends. I just can't imaging making many of these. Anyways its all stickered now and I hope to make a video and post some more pictures today.

Carl

_________________
-
Image

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:06 am
wwwmwww wrote:
Anyways its all stickered now and I hope to make a video and post some more pictures today.

Yay! Can't wait for the video!

_________________
Shapeways shop


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 176 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group