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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:27 pm 
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The 5x5x5 T-Centers are now designed. This required I do back and tweak the 3x3x3 Corners and that has now been done as well.
Attachment:
555TCenter1.png
555TCenter1.png [ 175.91 KiB | Viewed 3181 times ]

And the current puzzle.
Attachment:
Puzzle9.PNG
Puzzle9.PNG [ 339.09 KiB | Viewed 3181 times ]

Here is a front on shot of one of the faces.
Attachment:
Puzzle8.png
Puzzle8.png [ 444.03 KiB | Viewed 3181 times ]

This last one makes me think of Green Lantern's Lantern after the Green Lantern Corps has been assimilated by the Borg.

Enjoy,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:00 pm 
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The 5x5x5 Middle Edge is now done.
Attachment:
555Edge.png
555Edge.png [ 141.78 KiB | Viewed 3163 times ]


And the current puzzle. It is now starting to look like a cube.
Attachment:
Puzzle10.png
Puzzle10.png [ 471.03 KiB | Viewed 3163 times ]


Enjoy,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:16 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
And the current puzzle. It is now starting to look like a cube.
Yeh, and I'm starting to look like Brad Pitt :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:28 am 
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Oh I just LOVE the way my mind works. I always seem to solve the most difficult problems in my sleep. I went to bed last night still worrying about what happens if this all falls apart mid-turn. And I woke up this morning with the realization that I can make this puzzle 100 times stronger and almost guarantee that it doesn't fall apart. I just need to redesign one part of the 5x5x5 T-Center and one other part that I haven't ported to SolidWorks yet. This is something that eluded me when I made the POV-Ray model and something that can ONLY be done because the circles on the faces are fixed relative to the inner layers of the puzzle as this is a Multi-5x5x5. If this were an externally identical puzzle which allowed those circles to turn on their own then what I'm about to do couldn't be done. I'll say more as I show the redesign parts.
Gus wrote:
Yeh, and I'm starting to look like Brad Pitt :lol:
Is that a World War Z reference that I don't get? Or just your way of saying... that ain't no cube?

Little voice on my shoulder pops up and says "Carl... what are you doing? If Gus actually does look like Brad Pitt then you just insulted the man."

Carl thinks for a moment... "Nahh.... that can't be what he means".

LOL,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:21 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I always seem to solve the most difficult problems in my sleep. I went to bed last night still worrying about what happens if this all falls apart mid-turn. And I woke up this morning with the realization that I can make this puzzle 100 times stronger and almost guarantee that it doesn't fall apart.

My mind actually works the same way too! A few months ago I was working on a mechanism for a brand new kind of puzzle that was very complex, and I was 99% there, but there was this extremely annoying problem that prevented it from working. When I woke up the next morning I had the solution completely worked out. I guess great minds think alike. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Ok... here is the original 5x5x5 T-Center:
Attachment:
555TCenter1.png
555TCenter1.png [ 175.91 KiB | Viewed 3072 times ]

Here is the re-designed 5x5x5 T-Center:
Attachment:
555TCenter2.PNG
555TCenter2.PNG [ 262.07 KiB | Viewed 3072 times ]

See the difference?

This picture shows what I did:
Attachment:
Test1.png
Test1.png [ 204.82 KiB | Viewed 3072 times ]

In short, I extended the middle part of the 5x5x5 T-Center down to use the track I created for the 5x5x5 Corners.

Why didn't I do this before?

I noticed it broke the rotational symmetry of the 5x5x5 T-Center with respect to the 3x3x3 Edge Piece. The first design allowed the 5x5x5 T-Center to rotate freely about the X and Y axes independent of the 3x3x3 Edge. With the new foot in place the 5x5x5 T-Center can now ONLY rotate about the Y axis independent of the 3x3x3 Edge. This concern was addressed with the 5x5x5 Corners as it has two different tracks it can use, depending upon which axis it is rotating about. However that isn't an option for this 5x5x5 T-Center. So until today, I "fixed" that issue by simply cutting this part off altogether. But I now see that "concern" isn't an issue for this 5x5x5 T-Center and it doesn't need to be "fixed". Do you see why?

One other side effect of this... I now have the geometry of this portion of the 5x5x5 T-Center complex enough that SolidWorks is refusing to shell it for me. Its a relatively thin piece and its over all significance to the integrity of the puzzle as a whole has now been greatly increased so like the 3x3x3 Corners I'm now tempted to leave this piece solid.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:31 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Oh I just LOVE the way my mind works. I always seem to solve the most difficult problems in my sleep.
benpuzzles wrote:
My mind actually works the same way too...When I woke up the next morning I had the solution completely worked out.

This is a really interesting phenomenon. In the book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (possibly my favourite book, maybe tied with Hitchhiker's Guide), the author at one point talks about hypotheses and how they come about, and also how the great minds of the past came up with solutions to problems. I think it's Poincare he mentions (but that's probably wrong-some famous scientific person, anyway), who was stuck on some problem for days and then one day as he stepped onto a bus, everything just "came to him", just like that. He gives other examples of this same thing happening. Thoughts come "out of nowhere" and people suddenly "see" exactly what needs to be done. So hearing you both say what I quoted is no surprise whatsoever. The same thing has happened to a much lesser degree when I'm trying to solve a tough puzzle. I wake up in the morning, and it's "all so obvious"... :o It's a great feeling! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:27 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Is that a World War Z reference that I don't get? Or just your way of saying... that ain't no cube?
Little voice on my shoulder pops up and says "Carl... what are you doing? If Gus actually does look like Brad Pitt then you just insulted the man."
Carl thinks for a moment... "Nahh.... that can't be what he means".
Have you not seen my Avatar? That is one of the best photos of me that's ever been taken. The similarities are obvious :wink:

BTW, I'm following this thread in awe of your design skills. Brilliant.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Ok... I have the 5x5x5 X-Center designed. This was the other part affected by my eureka moment last night so its design differs significantly from the POV-Ray model.
Attachment:
555XCenter.png
555XCenter.png [ 173.08 KiB | Viewed 3000 times ]

And here is the puzzle with these parts added.
Attachment:
Puzzle11.png
Puzzle11.png [ 486.59 KiB | Viewed 3000 times ]


A couple other observations. I've now removed the secondary part of the 5x5x5 wing which caused the void on the surface of the POV-Ray model. So that void is now gone. This had also allowed me to move things around a bit and I think improved the design in other ways. The irony... now that I have designed the 5x5x5 T-Centers and X-Centers the way they SHOULD have been designed in the first place I now see where the foot of this part would have gone. Can you see where it would have gone? Its surface area is now zero but it still has some finite volume in a couple of the inner shells which will result in small internal voids. I don't believe these will hurt the puzzle in any way though.

Enjoy,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Just two more pieces to go! Can't wait until it's finished! Hopefully it will be finished tomorrow, and you'll have the finished product in a few weeks.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:17 am 
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Here are a few pictures which show how the 5x5x5 X-Center fits into the 3x3x3 Corner. These also give me a pretty good idea how this is going to need to be assembled. I think the 5x5x5 pieces are going to need to be added to the 3x3x3 pieces first such that you have blocks which form giant 3x3x3 corners and edges and then those groups will get added to the core as if it were a giant 3x3x3.
Attachment:
Test2.png
Test2.png [ 305.28 KiB | Viewed 2966 times ]

Attachment:
Test3.png
Test3.png [ 297.2 KiB | Viewed 2966 times ]


I've now also finished the 5x5x5 Wing piece.
Attachment:
555Wing1.png
555Wing1.png [ 183.62 KiB | Viewed 2966 times ]


And the current puzzle.
Attachment:
Puzzle12.png
Puzzle12.png [ 429.37 KiB | Viewed 2966 times ]


Yes, I'll get the 5x5x5 Corner done tomorrow. Then I likely have a days worth of playing around with Tom's piece packer. I don't have high hopes for being able to get this all under 1 million polygons but I'll try. I suspect I'll need to upload as 2 (hopefully no more) moldels.

Oh and I also went ahead and ordered screws today. I had every intention of ordering from here:
http://blobjector.com/product/m3-x-8mm-button-head-bolt-black/
They say they take PayPal but PayPal tells me there is something wrong with their account and won't let me pay them. Looking at their other payment options I'm not even sure that web site is finished being set up. They have a check option, but if you select it, it doesn't give you an address to send the check.

So I ended up going with McMaster-Carr.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#allen-cap-screws/=plkhyu

They are under: Button Head Socket / Metric / M3. I got some 8mm and 10mm screws. The puzzle is designed for 8mm but I suspect the 10mm ones will fit too. I'll test that once I have the puzzle.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:32 am 
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I can't wait for this to be a final product! I know I've said this several times, but I can't wait for this to be a finished product, and now I really want one, so I hope it gets mass-produced. Calvin, you've got a job to do! And a question: Why do you need to have those indents in the 3x3x3 corner pieces? You might have said it already, but I don't want to look for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:41 am 
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BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
And a question: Why do you need to have those indents in the 3x3x3 corner pieces?


Those indents are there to make each piece unique, which makes the puzzle a supercube.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:19 am 
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Jorbs3210 wrote:
BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
And a question: Why do you need to have those indents in the 3x3x3 corner pieces?

Those indents are there to make each piece unique, which makes the puzzle a supercube.

Correct. Though that isn't the 3x3x3 Corner piece. Its part of the 3x3x3 Edge.
Attachment:
333Edge3.png
333Edge3.png [ 154.25 KiB | Viewed 2940 times ]

Without this cutout to create some extra areas to sticker the four 3x3x3 Edges in each slice layer only show the colors of the two opposite faces. This makes all four identical. See here are what 4 edges in the same slice layer look like.
Attachment:
Four333Edges.png
Four333Edges.png [ 377.96 KiB | Viewed 2938 times ]

So without this extra stickering then you would have 3 sets of four identical 3x3x3 Edges. Granted some might want that and I'd be happy to make pieces that didn't have these cut outs but I personally want them so the first one will have them.

Thanks for the question. And thanks for the quick answer Jorbs3210.

Here is what the 3x3x3 Corner looks like.
Attachment:
333Corner2.png
333Corner2.png [ 249.69 KiB | Viewed 2940 times ]

It has stickers on the same 3 faces a normal 3x3x3 would find them on so all is good there.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:23 pm 
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I finished the 5x5x5 Corner some time ago.
Attachment:
555Corner2.png
555Corner2.png [ 183.61 KiB | Viewed 2877 times ]

Here is what it looks like with the corner in place.
Attachment:
Puzzle13.png
Puzzle13.png [ 452.54 KiB | Viewed 2877 times ]


What I have been doing most of today is looking at all the pieces and seeing how they interact with all the others and fixing minor issues. Most of the major issues I'd spotted deal with how the pieces interact with copies of themselves. I'll slow you the process I go though and share the biggest issues I've spotted yet. I'll fix that after this post.

So starting from the finished puzzle, I remove layers and verify that it looks like each layer should be able to rotate freely on its own. Here is the puzzle with the top 5x5x5 Layer removed.
Attachment:
PuzzleM5.png
PuzzleM5.png [ 487.01 KiB | Viewed 2877 times ]

All looks OK to me so I remove the next 3x3x3 layer.
Attachment:
PuzzleM3.png
PuzzleM3.png [ 453.82 KiB | Viewed 2877 times ]

Still looking good. So I remove the slice layer.
Attachment:
PuzzleM1.png
PuzzleM1.png [ 388.74 KiB | Viewed 2877 times ]

Still good. So I start to remove the next 3x3x3 layer and I get this far before I spot an issue. Do you see it?
Attachment:
Error1.png
Error1.png [ 297.65 KiB | Viewed 2877 times ]

If not this should help.
Attachment:
Error2.png
Error2.png [ 255.32 KiB | Viewed 2877 times ]

I found a similar issue with the 5x5x5 Wing piece earlier but the overlap was much smaller and its already been fixed. I'd MUCH rather catch these errors at this stage and fix them, as it can get expensive if these aren't caught before things are printed. So I highly recommend all designers look at all their pieces and all their interactions from just about every angle they can before uploading to Shapeways. Still errors can slip through... that is why I don't recommend purchasing someone else's model until you know for sure its been tested. I don't open them up for sale in my Shapeways shop till they've been printed, tested, and I have a video which shows how they perform.

Off to fix this latest error. I'm hoping its the last one. Oh... and notice the area of the overlap actually belongs to the one piece (a part of the 5x5x5 Wing) which I left out of the POV-Ray model. That piece is harder to get rid of then one would think.

Enjoy,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:38 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
So I highly recommend all designers look at all their pieces and all their interactions from just about every angle they can before uploading to Shapeways.

This. I'm working on a puzzle currently, and there are many issues with the mechanism that I've found over the course of the design, so I ended up completely redesigning the puzzle THREE times! Hopefully the third time is the charm ( it looks like it will work) although there are some areas of slight concern that are simply unavoidable from what I can see. I guess in those cases it's best to print it to see what happens... :P

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Looks like we've got two great puzzles coming soon! And thanks for the answer Jorbs3210, it really cleared things up for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:31 am 
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Ok... All parts are fixed.

Here are some pictures:
Attachment:
Layer5T.png
Layer5T.png [ 262.3 KiB | Viewed 2810 times ]

Attachment:
Layer3T.png
Layer3T.png [ 348.97 KiB | Viewed 2810 times ]

Attachment:
Layer1P.png
Layer1P.png [ 436.83 KiB | Viewed 2810 times ]

Attachment:
Layer3P.png
Layer3P.png [ 376.69 KiB | Viewed 2810 times ]

Attachment:
Layer5P.png
Layer5P.png [ 294.29 KiB | Viewed 2810 times ]


Everybody is happy. Even the puzzle has a smile.
Attachment:
Face.png
Face.png [ 378.87 KiB | Viewed 2810 times ]


I've been creating STL files and so far I've been able to get the total Triangle Count to under 2 Million.
Attachment:
TriangleCount.png
TriangleCount.png [ 25.53 KiB | Viewed 2810 times ]


I tried to set the deviation at 0.05mm for all parts but SolidWorks will only let me go that large on 2 of the parts. For the STL parameter Angle I'm using a tolerance of 24 degrees which is larger then I've ever used before but I think it should be fine. Any tips on how to get this below 1 Million without giving up too much, or should I just go with two models?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:49 am 
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benpuzzles wrote:
This. I'm working on a puzzle currently, and there are many issues with the mechanism that I've found over the course of the design, so I ended up completely redesigning the puzzle THREE times! Hopefully the third time is the charm ( it looks like it will work) although there are some areas of slight concern that are simply unavoidable from what I can see. I guess in those cases it's best to print it to see what happens... :P
I assume this is a reference to this post. Yes, the visual checking is just to catch the stupid stuff that you know won't work. At some point, if you have everything the way you indent to have it in the design then yes you need to print it to verify that it will work as intended. Those tiny red parts look very small... if the parts around them are larger you may be able to leave them out all together. Maybe increase the filleting radius around the gap left behind. But it would certainly seem reasonable to print it and test it as is. If the small red pieces jam you could take them out and just try the puzzle with the remaining pieces as is. The only way to know for sure is to try it. And sooner or later you will end up printing a design that simply doesn't work. Its just the nature of the game.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:23 am 
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By the way, I got a PM about another source for screws. I searched that link and found these:

http://www.amazonsupply.com/socket-internal-threaded-threads-imported/dp/B005DZZ5XO/ref=sr_1_5?sr=1-5&qid=1385881472

Do NOT get these, if that description is correct. NOTE: It says Hex Wrench 2.5mm. The design I have for the inner 3x3x3 arms requires at most a 2mm hex wrench be used to tighten the inner screw. You will NOT be able to fit a 2.5mm hex wrench through the hole above this screw.

Here is the description of the screws I ordered from McMaster-Carr:
Attachment:
Screws.png
Screws.png [ 48.59 KiB | Viewed 2787 times ]
At the table near the top you see it says Hex Size is 2 for an M3 screw. These should be fine. I certainly hope that information is correct as all the M3 screws I currently have on hand require a 2.5mm hex wrench and I know that won't work. I've already tested that on another core I have with the same size screw holes.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:27 am 
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Hi Carl,

Now that you've pretty much completed the design, did you think about how you might add Crazy elements to it along the way, and whether it would be achievable? While it's all fresh in your mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 3:16 pm 
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You need to make a video of the assembly process of this puzzle. I can't imagine how long it'll take to put together. Looks amazing so far!

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
Now that you've pretty much completed the design, did you think about how you might add Crazy elements to it along the way, and whether it would be achievable? While it's all fresh in your mind.
Great timing and thanks for the question. Your question has helped me probably more then my answer will help you. If made me think about the connection to the core. There is a square peg that fits into a square hole but that hole was only 2mm deep and the overlap with the 3x3x3 arm should have only been about 1.5mm when assembled. I don't think that is enough to make sure the center doesn't turn so I'm now made the hole 4mm deep. Here is a cross-section of the new parts.
Attachment:
CoreCut.png
CoreCut.png [ 166.06 KiB | Viewed 2699 times ]

I also made one other small change today. I added another powder drain hold to the side part of the 5x5x5 t-centers. Seen here. There was already a small hole at the bottom but at its widest it's only about 0.5mm so I doubt it would have allowed for the removal of much power by itself.
Attachment:
555TCenterSide.png
555TCenterSide.png [ 199.35 KiB | Viewed 2699 times ]


So now to answer your question. Well, first one may need to define "crazy element". Would all of these count as crazy elements?
(1) Central face circle rotates freely.
(2) Face ring, just outside the central circle, rotates freely.
(3) Central face circle rotates with the 5x5x5 face that its on.
(4) Face ring rotates with the 5x5x5 face that its on.
(5) Central face circle rotates with the 3x3x3 layer just below the face.
(6) Face ring rotates with the central slice layer as the current face circle is intended to.

If these all count... they yes some are doable. Let's comment on these separately:

(1) This is by far the easiest option to make available. All I need to do is replace the square hole in the core with a round hole and it should allow this type of rotation.
(2) The option is exactly the type of motion that my eureka moment for the other night will NOT allow. To enable this one would need to cut off those feel that I added to the 5x5x5 t-centers and x-centers and also cut off the extensions from the 3x3x3 corner that extent to the surface. Note that the inner 3x3x3 puzzle (talking about the non-exposed parts of the 3x3x3 face, edge, and what would be left of the corner) now has NO exposed surface area so that it it were left as is there would be no way to control its alignment with the rest of the puzzle with the current pieces. However this can be fixed. ALL of those pieces can be fused to the core. But I've be very concerned about the stability of some of the small outer pieces. The arms just cut off the 3x3x3 corner are small and don't have much of a foot of their own. So if this was an option that was wanted one might be better off to start from scratch.
(3) With the ring between these two areas I see no way to make this connection. But I'll stop short of saying its impossible.
(4) If all 6 faces were like this then yes its doable but it would be like removing two of the conical cuts from each axis. So you could likely design a simpler and smaller puzzle that would do this. It would be a 5x5x5 Circle cube with just one circle on each face.
(5) Again this would be a 5x5x5 Circle cube with just one circle on each face so yes it should be able to enable this puzzle to make that move but as with (4) you'd be better off with a simpler and smaller puzzle.
(6) Again I think this falls in the same catagory as (4) and (5).

Now if one intendes to allow mixing of these options on a single cube where each face could be a selection from the above 6 options... Oh that makes my head hurt. The only easy one I see that can be mixed in easily on a per face basis is option (1) above as I could mix up square holes and round holes on the same core. To get any more complicated then that would require cutting up the 3x3x3 corners for one and creating many smaller parts. This may be doable but I don't yet even know if this design works and is stable. This puzzle is already 80mm on an edge. If one added larger feet to some of the smaller parts created by the process of enabling some of these type of faces I suspect you'd really want to start with a puzzle that was at least 100mm on an edge if not even larger. Probably not the answer you were hoping for but a general Crazy 5x5x5 Circle puzzle wasn't really what I set out to make either.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:07 pm 
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Zem wrote:
You need to make a video of the assembly process of this puzzle. I can't imagine how long it'll take to put together. Looks amazing so far!
Arg... I already have puzzles that take me a fair deal of time to put together. Though I enjoy that process more then stickering. I also have basically zero video editing skills. Something like that you'd probably want to watch most of at 10x speed or something. I haven't done that before but this could be an occasion to learn. I'll see what I can do.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:35 pm 
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Thanks to Brandon, he helped me get the triangle count to below 1 million. I believe he's planning on making a post to show how he did it. Its now been uploaded to Shapeways and ordered.
Attachment:
Shapeways.jpg
Shapeways.jpg [ 71.11 KiB | Viewed 2659 times ]
As I expected... its not cheap. This one qualifies for the $50 discount all by itself without any markup. I just hope it works.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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wwwmwww wrote:
Thanks to Brandon, he helped me get the triangle count to below 1 million. I believe he's planning on making a post to show how he did it. Its now been uploaded to Shapeways and ordered.
Attachment:
Shapeways.jpg
As I expected... its not cheap. This one qualifies for the $50 discount all by itself without any markup. I just hope it works.

Carl

Somehow this took me the whole day (8:30 AM until 5:00 PM with no break)! I have a post about it here. It took a long time to get the new Meshlab compiled and to test all the various features and figure out how to get around problems. Then take screen shots, pack parts, etc. It was fun though :D

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:29 am 
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Burgo wrote:
did you think about how you might add Crazy elements to it along the way, and whether it would be achievable?
Thinking about this more there is a set of puzzles I can (and plan to, provided this one works) make which might be considered "Crazy elements". We are all familiar with the 8 Crazy Plus 3x3x3 which are names after the planets. These:
Image
Which by the way I'm looking for two of these myself. See my post here. Its been shown that all 8 of these puzzles are subsets of a Multi-5x5x5 which has been bandaged in such a way as to allow only 3 turnable layers per axis. Two of these super set puzzles have already been made. They are these two:
The Deep Uniaxial 3x3x3 which I probably should re-name the Venus Uniaxial 3x3x3
The Mercury Uniaxial 3x3x3
Making the other six requires me to bandage parts of the inner 3x3x3 which don't exist in the models used to make the first two. And even if they did you wouldn't be able to see them as they'd have no area on the surface of the puzzle. Both of those issues are now solved with the Real5x5x5 design so it is now trivial to make all 8 of the Crazy Plus 3x3x3 Superset puzzles from this one. In fact you could do it with this very puzzle and a bit of superglue if you wanted to. The plan is to redesign the parts so that you don't need the superglue. Again not sure if this is exactly what you are after as they would technically be "Super" or "Multi" Crazy Plus 3x3x3's and not Crazy Plus 5x5x5's which is what I think you are wanting.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:53 am 
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Hi Carl,

It’s not very interesting just to `babyface` the inner parts by unbandaging them at the shaft for `free rotation`. I’d like to stick with the more traditional 0face and 1face.

What I would ideally like to do is to have an `inner` crazy 333, inside a Crazy 555 of the same planet! I’m not sure exactly how that would work, but I have an idea. I’ll include all elements, so that you can verify all of the functionality:

The Bo Hu Simulator classifies the Real555 (all faces are 0faces) as:
Outer face twist (F): Ring fixed + Inner circle fixed
Slice twist (f): Ring twists + Inner circle fixed

The Bo Hu Simulator classifies a Crazy face (a 1face) as:
Outer face twist (F): Ring fixed + Inner circle fixed (this is the same as the 0face)
Slice twist (f): Ring fixed + Inner circle twists (this is the opposite to the 0face)

Now I don’t know how he’s made his judgements. The use of the ring seems a bit weird to me. It seems to me that to `Crazy a face` (to make a 1face), the bandaging is shifted `up a layer`: On a 333, the bandaging of the Inner Circle pieces is shifted from the slice layer to the outer face.

Let’s imagine a Single Circle Crazy 555. It would seem to me that on a 1face of a Single Circle 555 the Inner Circle pieces would move with the Outer layer (F) twist instead of the Slice layer (f). They move `up a layer` to dislodge their relationships to their normal Circle cube positions.

Following this logic, it seems right to me that the true Crazy Real555 would look like this:
Outer face twist (F): Ring twists + Inner Circle fixed
Slice twist (f): Ring fixed + Inner Circle twists (the Inner edges and CCs are retained as like pieces).

That's a combination of types (4) & (5) of your above^^ analysis, if I'm correct.

If we were to have just the Inner Circle `Crazied` We would still have additional 555 pieces involved that aren’t part of the 333, this is still quite interesting, and perhaps not as complex mechanism wise.. although it would be probably better suited to a lesser puzzle.

Bo Hu’s method of Crazying this puzzle confounds me, it’s interesting nevertheless, and maybe opens up the possibility of a 3rd type of face here, but I’m interested in what others think is legitimate.

I guess, the equivalent of your dream of a real 555, is my dream of a Crazy 333 inside a Crazy 555 :D It's probably absolutely nuts, but who knows, maybe one day, and this is the closest it's been to possible :lol: .

I see that you have made some of the 333 pieces as whole pieces, of course, just the perception of unbandaging these relationships like a Crazy puzzle does, implies the physical separation of these pieces, so I can only assume that a lot of design reconfiguration would be necessary, and it probably has limited possibilities in reality.

BTW, what's your opinion about adding a spring to the core?

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
What I would ideally like to do is to have an `inner` crazy 333, inside a Crazy 555 of the same planet!
I think to make that puzzle in general one would need another ring between the 3x3x3 layer ring and the outer 5x5x5 pieces to represent the Crazy 5x5x5 circle. But short of that your wording made me realize I can make more then one possible type of planet series with this puzzle. In addition to the Super Sets of the Crazy Plus Cubes (or Uniaxial puzzles), I can also make all the Crazy 3x3x3 planets inside a Normal 5x5x5. Let me run through the different types of faces I know I can make. And as I'm not sure of the naming convention of these myself I'll use letters instead of numbers. Well except for Type 0 which is the Normal Face and the one already present on the Real5x5x5.

Attachment:
CrazyA.png
CrazyA.png [ 120.89 KiB | Viewed 2525 times ]
Type A is where the central circle can rotate freely. One just needs to replace the 3x3x3 arm on an axis to give it this property.

Attachment:
CrazyB.png
CrazyB.png [ 99.55 KiB | Viewed 2523 times ]
Type B is used to turn the central 3x3x3 into a Crazy 3x3x3. One needs to replace the 3x3x3 arm and inner 3x3x3 face center with this new single piece. The inner circle now rotates with the 3x3x3 face and NOT the core of the puzzle.

Attachment:
CrazyC.png
CrazyC.png [ 99.25 KiB | Viewed 2523 times ]
Type C and Type D are used together to make the Super Sets of the Crazy Plus 3x3x3 puzzles. This one ties the circle to the 3x3x3 layer but it also ties the 3x3x3 layer to the core. Remember the Crazy Plus 3x3x3 puzzles only have 3 turnable layers per axis so the 3x3x3 face layer needs to be tied to either the core (as Type C) does or it needs to be tied to the 5x5x5 face layer. Again here one needs to replace the 3x3x3 arm and the inner 3x3x3 face center with a new part.

Attachment:
CrazyD1.png
CrazyD1.png [ 245.3 KiB | Viewed 2520 times ]

Attachment:
CrazyD2.png
CrazyD2.png [ 195.62 KiB | Viewed 2520 times ]
Type D is the type used with Type C to make the Super Sets. Here I need to tie the 3x3x3 face layer to the 5x5x5 face layer. This connection is made by merging the two outer face pieces to make the blue piece you see here. Note this connection is independent of the 3x3x3 arm and the 3x3x3 inner face center so in principle it can be used with all the other types on the same face and thus forming options D0, DA, DB, and DC. On the Super Sets (or Uniaxial puzzles) it would always be D0. But for this to work as intended Type D does place a requirement on the neighboring faces. They must have the Type 0 or the Type C 3x3x3 arm pieces. If those central circles are allowed to rotate relative to the core then these bandaged pieces are free to move about the puzzle and no longer really represent the 3x3x3 and 5x5x5 face layer centers of a given face. Do I tend to say any face which neighbors a type D0, DA, DB, or DC face should to be type 0, C, D0, or DC.

Note I just say "should". In principle these newly designed parts would allow a puzzle to be constructed where each face could be chose to be one of these 8 types (0, A, B, C, D0, DA, DB, and DC) They are all compatible with each other. But what will happen if you place an A or B face next to a D face is the bandaging which ties the Type D 5x5x5 face to the 3x3x3 face below it is now free to move to other faces and bandage other faces in very odd ways. You'll have face types changing properties depending on where these pieces are located.

Oh and I should say yes, D and C can be applied on the same axis even though they never are on the Super Sets (or Uniaxial puzzles). This would just bandage the 5x5x5 face, 3x3x3 face, and the core all together on that one face.

So there are 8 (maybe I should say at least 8) different types of faces that I see as easily doable on the Real5x5x5.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Hey I know you're still editing but if you make the square a circle doesn't that mean the center portion is free to turn or not turn at the same time? What's to stop the center portion from becoming unaligned with the outer portion?

I've looked but not longer remember how the planet mechanism works. I don't think it suffers from the ability to turn the inner circle portions independent of the outer portions.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:15 pm 
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Brandon Enright wrote:
What's to stop the center portion from becoming unaligned with the outer portion?
You are asking about the inner 3x3x3 face center piece and the inner 3x3x3 edges... correct? If so these are still held fixed by the 3x3x3 corner pieces as they have exposed area on the surface. The other pieces in the central circle are free to rotate but as they are on the surface the user is required to align them before the next turn is made.
Brandon Enright wrote:
I've looked but not longer remember how the planet mechanism works. I don't think it suffers from the ability to turn the inner circle portions independent of the outer portions.
Correct... this isn't a face type used on the Crazy Circle Plus cubes. They use type 0 and B using the naming scheme I have above. By that logic B=1 I guess. I'm just trying to list all the types of faces that are doable. Type A is what is typically considered a type of babyface turn.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Carl, why don't you slow down!
The original idea was a Real5x5x5© and you have finished designing it, you have yet to test it, and already, you're thinking about making hundreds of different offspring puzzles from it!
First, let's see if the printed design actually works like it's supposed to :D

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:32 pm 
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1NSAN3 wrote:
First, let's see if the printed design actually works like it's supposed to :D
Agreed. Most of this was just answering Burgo's questions. However I must confess, the thought of making the rest of the uniaxial puzzles was part of the motivation for finishing this puzzle. That and the Complex 3x3x3 which I feel this is a stepping stone in that direction.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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wwwmwww wrote:
Burgo wrote:
What I would ideally like to do is to have an `inner` crazy 333, inside a Crazy 555 of the same planet!
I think to make that puzzle in general one would need another ring between the 3x3x3 layer ring and the outer 5x5x5 pieces to represent the Crazy 5x5x5 circle.
I made a diagram to show the parts comparison and the bandaging. The parts comparison is very similar in both senses (the 0face and the 1face) so I think one diagram fits both as far as an explanation goes. I think all parts are represented here in some way.. so I'm not sure why the extra ring would be needed? I'm just talking about `what would make the Crazy 333 inside the Crazy 555` at the moment, not whether it's possible to make it.
Attachment:
Crazy Circle Comparison.jpg
Crazy Circle Comparison.jpg [ 309.71 KiB | Viewed 2383 times ]
Sorry if I'm compromising the thread, I'm willing to make a new thread if you want, but I think it fits the discussion? I'm interested to see if we're on the same page, or if my thinking is correct?
wwwmwww wrote:
I can also make all the Crazy 3x3x3 planets inside a Normal 5x5x5.
Yes, this is what I was talking about here, more or less:
Burgo wrote:
If we were to have just the Inner Circle `Crazied` We would still have additional 555 pieces involved that aren’t part of the 333, this is still quite interesting, and perhaps not as complex mechanism wise.. although it would be probably better suited to a lesser puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:00 am 
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I don't fully understaand how this puzzle turns. Is there ny comparable puzzle I could look at?

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Hi Kyle,

I'm not sure if you mean the Crazy version I've been talking about or the Standard Real555, so I edited my picture^^ to add text.

If you aren't sure about the Real555, then, the inner circle is bandaged to the core, and the Ring is bandaged to (f) the slice layer. It's possible to download the puzzle in the Bo Hu simulator, under `circle cubes`, here:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24876

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Burgo wrote:
Hi Kyle,

I'm not sure if you mean the Crazy version I've been talking about or the Standard Real555, so I edited my picture^^ to add text.

If you aren't sure about the Real555, then, the inner circle is bandaged to the core, and the Ring is bandaged to (f) the slice layer. It's possible to download the puzzle in the Bo Hu simulator, under `circle cubes`, here:
http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/view ... =8&t=24876


Thanks for the info Burgo

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:14 pm 
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TheCubingKyle wrote:
Thanks for the info Burgo
Here are some animations I can post here as well...

The outer layers turn like this:
Image

The next layer in turns like this:
Image

And the center slice layer turns like this:
Image

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Wow that is one smmmoooth turning puzzle, and the stickering job is amazing! But I don't think you'll ever be a speedcuber :lol:

Seriously, I can't wait to see this beast in the flesh.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Gus wrote:
Seriously, I can't wait to see this beast in the flesh.

Absolutely! Excitement levels just skyrocketed seeing those animations! 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Gus wrote:
Seriously, I can't wait to see this beast in the flesh.
Same here! Also, even if it turns out that it doesn't work well, having all of the design work and a lot of back-and-forth design decisions done out in the open like this has been great to see. This is one of my favorite threads on the site and I think that's saying a lot since this site has so many amazing threads.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Gus wrote:
Seriously, I can't wait to see this beast in the flesh.

I agree, although I seem to be the only one who finds this way of saying it a little bit gross...

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Why are there no circle corners in the animations?

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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I've followed the thread with extreme interest, although only lurking, as much out of curiosity as anything else, because I wasn't sure exactly what the puzzle was intended to do. Having seen the animations I am amazed, it looks wonderful! Like the rest, I can't wait to see it in action :)

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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themathkid wrote:
Why are there no circle corners in the animations?

See Carl's original thread where he built it in POV-Ray. Carl figured out how to curve the outer face cut to maintain the circle-cut piece sizes while shrinking the circle diameter a bit. I think Carl's new design is superior in functionality and aesthetics.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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First... thanks for all the kind comments everyone. I'm really enjoying this thread too.
Brandon Enright wrote:
themathkid wrote:
Why are there no circle corners in the animations?
See Carl's original thread where he built it in POV-Ray. Carl figured out how to curve the outer face cut to maintain the circle-cut piece sizes while shrinking the circle diameter a bit. I think Carl's new design is superior in functionality and aesthetics.
Yes, these animations were made and first posted to the forums over 3 years ago (see the original thread). At that time I didn't know how to use Solidworks and I designed all my mechanisms using POV-Ray. POV-Ray didn't allow for the export of STL files and I simply enjoyed designing new mechanisms, so at the time I had no way to print the model. I did it just to prove that it could be done... on paper at least. My design skills have impoved in 3 years and I think this current version has many improvements over the POV-Ray one. But to answer the original question... those "circle corners" are part of the 5x5x5 Wing Pieces. The current 5x5x5 Wing Piece has two stickered surfaces so it already contains enough information to give it a unique position and orientation in the solved state. This omitted piece would have allowed a 3rd surface of the 5x5x5 Wing Cubie to be stickered but from a solving point of view it would add nothing to the puzzle so I made the call to leave it out. Think of it as an application of the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Which from all other points of view I have probably failed at miserably.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Quick update.

Shapeways has printed the puzzle. And the shipment is expected to get here Friday. I'm really looking forward to this one.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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wwwmwww wrote:
Quick update.

Shapeways has printed the puzzle. And the shipment is expected to get here Friday. I'm really looking forward to this one.

Carl

I can tell you this: you're not the only one who is really looking forward to this one! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Burgo wrote:
The parts comparison is very similar in both senses (the 0face and the 1face) so I think one diagram fits both as far as an explanation goes. I think all parts are represented here in some way.. so I'm not sure why the extra ring would be needed?
Not certain I'm sure what your black and red dots mean but I think I follow the rest. And I think we are pretty much on the same page. The reason why I think you'd need an extra ring would be due to the mechanism. If you just had two circles (one ring and one circle), you'd have parts for the 5x5x5 Face Layer, the 5x5x5 Circle Center, and the 3x3x3 Circle Center on each face. You wouldn't have any pieces on the surface that represented the 3x3x3 Face Layer. The mechanism would require that these pieces exist. If they are exposed on the surface alignment is taken care of my the user. If they are all hidden inside the puzzle the alignment of the 3x3x3 Layer Pieces inside could get out of alignment with the rest of the puzzle. There may be other ways to solve that issue but why not bring them to the surface where they can be solved too.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:02 am 
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Some headway... I finished the sticker template today.

Attachment:
StickerTemplate.PNG
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I also got my shipment from Shapeways on Friday and I did a box opening video today. My camera shut down midway through making the video so it is being uploaded as 2 parts. Here is the first part:
http://youtu.be/dz9NjBtFivY
The second part will be here but its still uploading at the moment:
http://youtu.be/uI-r_GN8OEg

For those not willing to sit through the long boring videos... the summary is that of the 281 parts needed to make the Real5x5x5 Shapeways only shipped me 279. I'm missing two parts. They are these two.
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I thought it very odd that the core, the single largest piece, was one of the ones to go missing. But I've now emailed Shapeways and I suspect they'll get things corrected. They always do. But it means another delay. Oh well...

Carl

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