Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:48 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
bmenrigh wrote:
All of the ones I could find are woven carbon fiber + vinyl and designed for automotive use.

Thanks. I expect others will find this thread in the future so for the sake of reference here's a link to it- http://chinaderek.en.alibaba.com/produc ... Vinyl.html

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:46 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA
With permission from Dlitwin I am bumping this thread with new information.

In order to prevent air bubbles, I have been boiling my puzzle pieces on high heat for about 20-30 minutes. As mentioned before, baking the pieces in an oven is also said to be effective, but I have not tried this. If anyone is still casting puzzles, give this a try and let me know your results. I have been able to cast and sticker puzzles in the same day with this method and no air bubbles formed in about a two year period.

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/kuhrik


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Kuhrik wrote:
As mentioned before, baking the pieces in an oven is also said to be effective, but I have not tried this. If anyone is still casting puzzles, give this a try and let me know your results.
As noted in my initial post in this topic I did try baking, but with no success. I (somewhat arbitrarily) chose 200F, which is not so far off from boiling (212F). But perhaps boiling is a more controlled environment.
I was trying with Alumilite black, I believe.

I haven't cast in quite some time (years?) but if I do again, I will definitely try boiling. Anyone else casting out there? Please provide a control study and boil some pieces but not others, then sticker both so we can compare. That way we can control for all the casting variables (material, mix, set time, etc.).

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 9:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:50 am
Location: chicago, IL area U.S.A
DLitwin wrote:
As noted in my initial post in this topic I did try baking, but with no success. I (somewhat arbitrarily) chose 200F, which is not so far off from boiling (212F). But perhaps boiling is a more controlled environment.
I was trying with Alumilite black, I believe.

Dave


I think you are right on that boiling would be a more controlled environment. Ovens have hot and cold spots and the parts of the oven touching your piece is going to transfer heat much differently than the hot air surrounding the piece. The heat transfer in a boiling liquid would be much quicker and more uniform. The only reason one would use an oven instead is if water reacts or you need to slowly heat.

-d


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:46 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA
I just cast another puzzle so I will do a control this time. I am boil the pieces of this Cheese Block for 15 minutes. All of the pieces of this puzzle has been cast in smooth cast 300 today or the day before and are being boiled today on high heat.
Attachment:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 755.12 KiB | Viewed 945 times ]

I will be using these pieces as the control, they were also cast today and sanded exactly the same as the experimental pieces. I will report my results next week or so.


Attachments:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 1.06 MiB | Viewed 945 times ]

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/kuhrik
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 9:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
It hasn't been convenient for me to test boiling though I have been baking for longer periods and higher temperatures. Even after 8 hours at 120-150c bubbles still appear. Instead of the next day though they are delayed until about a week or so later and definitely longer when using undyed resin.
There are other variations though no logical pattern that I can see. I believe the side that was at the top during casting may be more prone to bubbling though I am not certain. Very thin pieces seem to bubble as much if not more than thick pieces. some pieces bubble whereas some do not. Some sides of the same piece bubble whereas other sides do not. I assume though that eventually all pieces and sides will bubble.
Looking back at some older puzzles I see bubbling has concentrated on some at the seams. These seams are where the two parts were put together using the Drewseph method. There can be nothing different about them other than they are two tops of cast parts coming together before full curing. There is some greyness in these areas though.
Pieces dyed properly black can become wet after cooking which is a similar effect I found on some of my Rhomball puzzles many months after I made them. Even when the parts are washed and dried the previously wet areas won't take paint or varnish to seal them. Stickers won't stick either.
I am using Biresin 26 Polyurethane Resin.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:46 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA
After a week, here are my results. I cooked the pieces in tap water for 20 minutes at about 175 degrees Fahrenheit. The pieces did not seem to soften much at all and after the 20 minutes were rinsed in cold water. One thing I run into every time I use this method, is pieces bubbling on the surface, as shown in the picture below. My guess is that there is an air bubble in the pieces and it surfaces when boiled because pressure builds. This does give me an indication my method does cause some gas release. It has been 6 days since stickering the puzzle and control pieces, and the control pieces are forming bubbles. Some of the bubbles are very large and some are small. The pieces that were boiled are not showing signs of bubbling yet at all. I will post if anything changes, but I do not expect any bubbling to occur. I will try this with alumilite black resin and report back as well.


Attachments:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 411.91 KiB | Viewed 840 times ]
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 424.19 KiB | Viewed 840 times ]
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 965.29 KiB | Viewed 840 times ]
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 1022.97 KiB | Viewed 840 times ]
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 1.43 MiB | Viewed 840 times ]
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 1.65 MiB | Viewed 840 times ]

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/kuhrik
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
Kuhrik wrote:
One thing I run into every time I use this method, is pieces bubbling on the surface, as shown in the picture below. My guess is that there is an air bubble in the pieces and it surfaces when boiled because pressure builds. This does give me an indication my method does cause some gas release. It has been 6 days since stickering the puzzle and control pieces, and the control pieces are forming bubbles.

After your comments I have also been experimenting with boiling. It's too soon for conclusive results but early indications are good. I also noticed bubbling plastic though only on pieces recently cast (a day or so old). There were no bubbles / bulging on parts more than a week old. Hopefully these older parts are still being degassed though. If they are then finally we may have a perfect solution with no side affects.
On a separate note, I found that my Alkor paper bubbles after one day on untreated parts. Using almost identical paper on the same parts but made by DC-Fix, bubbling only occurred after 10-14 days. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Hopefully the boiling means it's something that can be ignored but there's clearly other things going on as well as straightforward out-gassing.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:46 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA
Tony Fisher wrote:
It's too soon for conclusive results but early indications are good. I also noticed bubbling plastic though only on pieces recently cast (a day or so old). There were no bubbles / bulging on parts more than a week old. Hopefully these older parts are still being degassed though. If they are then finally we may have a perfect solution with no side affects.
On a separate note, I found that my Alkor paper bubbles after one day on untreated parts. Using almost identical paper on the same parts but made by DC-Fix, bubbling only occurred after 10-14 days. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Hopefully the boiling means it's something that can be ignored but there's clearly other things going on as well as straightforward out-gassing.


I believe boiling older pieces should work perfectly fine as well. In fact, waiting a few days to boil the pieces might be safe, but I did it for the test the same day as casting to make an extreme example of the method's effectiveness. So far, I have only had one small bubble form on the boiled pieces of the Cheese Block under one of the large corner stickers, this may not be due to gases escaping. The sticker is large, so I may have not applied it completely correct.

I find that different vinyl brands even with the same thickness may yield different bubbling on untreated pieces due to a difference in the adhesive used, this may be your problem as well.

Finally I have a one more extremely useful casting tip. To get rid of the squeaky turning on a freshly cast puzzle and also improve the turning greatly without adding lubricant, you add some baby powder into the puzzle and work it around, then wash it out. This method makes all my cast puzzles turn amazingly smooth.

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/kuhrik


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
Yesterday I took two boiled parts and painted them with Chaos black as I would most puzzles. Once dried I applied stickers. 24 hours later there is major bubbling on these parts. The unpainted boiled parts remain bubble free. I have used the paint on polystyrene sheet so it's some reaction with the polyurethane.

From my tests so far-

1. Out-gassing causes sticker bubbling when using Biresin 26 polyurethane resin. 1 to 14 days to start, depending on sticker type.
2. Boiling (1 hour) delays or stops out-gassing. Based on comparison with unboiled parts. Stopping to be confirmed.
3. Different sticker adhesives affects bubbling on unboiled parts. 1 to 14 days variation.
4. Painted (Chaos black) boiled parts bubble.
5. Painted unboiled parts bubble.

This suggests 3 variables at play- Out-gassing, reaction to sticker adhesive, reaction to paint.
Next step is to leave paint a few days before stickering plus continued monitoring of stickered unpainted boiled parts.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:06 pm
if someone can find out what the gas is, and learn how it's created, maybe we can figure out how to stop it.

has anyone tried contacting a chemist? — like someone who works for one of the casting resin companies?
 


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
crypticat wrote:
if someone can find out what the gas is, and learn how it's created, maybe we can figure out how to stop it.

has anyone tried contacting a chemist? — like someone who works for one of the casting resin companies?
 

Part of a conversation with the technical dept of Biresin included "As the last possible answer remain a moist atmosphere at elevated temperature - for blocking the Isocyanatrestgruppen; thus CO2 formation is completed quickly"

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:06 pm
Tony Fisher wrote:
crypticat wrote:
if someone can find out what the gas is, and learn how it's created, maybe we can figure out how to stop it.

has anyone tried contacting a chemist? — like someone who works for one of the casting resin companies?
 

Part of a conversation with the technical dept of Biresin included "As the last possible answer remain a moist atmosphere at elevated temperature - for blocking the Isocyanatrestgruppen; thus CO2 formation is completed quickly"

that sounds like an incomplete translation. is Biresin a German company by any chance?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
crypticat wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
crypticat wrote:
if someone can find out what the gas is, and learn how it's created, maybe we can figure out how to stop it.

has anyone tried contacting a chemist? — like someone who works for one of the casting resin companies?
 

Part of a conversation with the technical dept of Biresin included "As the last possible answer remain a moist atmosphere at elevated temperature - for blocking the Isocyanatrestgruppen; thus CO2 formation is completed quickly"

that sounds like an incomplete translation. is Biresin a German company by any chance?

Yes, that is a slight issue. Not sure if they are translating from German or just not great at English.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
I now have random bubbling on some boiled parts. Experiment results = failure.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:46 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA
Tony Fisher wrote:
I now have random bubbling on some boiled parts. Experiment results = failure.


That is disappointing to hear, but we are using different resins, so different results are to be expected. I still am a huge fan of cubesmith smooth tiles, which look good for a long long time.

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/kuhrik


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:07 am
Location: Germany, Bavaria
Kuhrik wrote:
... still am a huge fan of cubesmith smooth tiles, which look good for a long long time.
How do you cut them? I like them very much, too.
I have got tiles on one of my casted puzzles only.
Somebody cut them for me, but they had many burn marks.

I'm covinced that Cubesmith tiles would be a good solution, if somebody has a decent method to machine cut them.

_________________
My collection at: http://sites.google.com/site/twistykon/home


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
Kuhrik wrote:
Tony Fisher wrote:
I now have random bubbling on some boiled parts. Experiment results = failure.


That is disappointing to hear, but we are using different resins, so different results are to be expected. I still am a huge fan of cubesmith smooth tiles, which look good for a long long time.

Yes, I use Biresin 26. In the UK the other more common ones aren't viable.
I think there's other things going on with my set up I am missing. My first batch of boiled parts are fine from a few weeks ago but then so are the unboiled control parts. I then tried some without black dye and also some more which were cast a few months back. Both sets have bubbling.
I agree tiles or a variation of them may be the answer. I had previously rejected them since I always thought they were thick and ugly. I only recently realised they don't have to be.
Konrad, I have experimented in the last day or two with similar material. You can cut it with a steel rule and sharp craft knife.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:46 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA
Konrad wrote:
How do you cut them? I like them very much, too.
I have got tiles on one of my casted puzzles only.
Somebody cut them for me, but they had many burn marks.

I'm covinced that Cubesmith tiles would be a good solution, if somebody has a decent method to machine cut them.


I handcut the tiles for a few of my cast puzzles by taping a template to the front of the tile (the backside won't stick). I use sharp scissors and then an exacto knife to round the corners. This process takes a bit of time 1-2 hours per puzzles, but you will never sticker it again! Here is an example of some gigaminx tiles I hand cut in about 15 minutes, next to the template I used.


Attachments:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 2.93 MiB | Viewed 529 times ]

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/kuhrik
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bubbling stickers
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Konrad wrote:
Somebody cut them for me, but they had many burn marks.
This was the the result of being laser cut, no doubt. While you will get nice shapes that way, I don't recommend it for two reasons: The burn marks and also the fact that the material probably contains chlorine which makes it hazardous and potentially damaging to the laser lens. The tile material is thin so I doubt there would be significant health risk with proper ventilation but it is still not something that would be allowed at the TechShop where I do my cutting.

Cubesmith die-cuts their tiles, but that involves the expense of having a die created which only makes sense if you are going to cut quite a few.

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group