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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:16 pm 
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I just solved 4.2.7, or what I like to call Professors Trajber's Octahedron in sick number of turns.

Turn-Count Ranking:
1 Doug Cube 201 10/07/08
2 Michael Gottlieb 338 15/01/08
3 Campbell 372 02/06/08
4 Noah Hevey 399 12/01/08
5 Daniel Devitt 690 08/07/08

I figured out a way to 3-cycle the 1-sticker corner pieces (little triangles), using an 8-turn alg. They are less expensive to cycle than the 2-sicker corner pieces.

Here's the method I finally settled on:

1. Solve 4-sticker corner pieces (tip orientation) using at most 8 turns. (This step is somewhat optional if you want to reduce turn-count even more, but I used it. It helps you figure out which face is which color.)

2. Solve a triangle group on each face - I'm talking about the larger of the two face triangles. The big triangle that kisses the actual edge line at their midpoint. (Oh and if you do not do step 1 first, be careful to solve them into the right place.) This is done by seeing the induced Trajber's Octahedron (if you were to click + shift-click), but do it **holding shift the whole time**. The octagonal sticker correspond to the centers of the Trajber's Octahedron, and the big edges on that are the tiny middle-edges here.

3. Now you should have a big triangle solved on each face. (Turn-count so far for me: 48.) Next, imagine the corners as the centers of a super-5x5 with some indistinguishable x-centers.... these are 1-color and the +centers here are 2-color. Note that if you skipped step 1, then the center-centers (4-color) are not oriented properly, but don't really need to be yet, since we are solving them in groups and if you stay within certain types of sequences (commutators), then we simply have "centers of a super 5x5" without needing to worry about corners or edges (and entirely so on tip-turns). Using a greedy-approach, find finished pairs of x-center and +center. There should be a bunch randomly scattered about. Insert those into their proper place next to the super-central-center/tip/actual-corner they belong on. Try doing so without ruining any pairings on the "backswing". Also you may get lucky and produce more pairs to feed this step.

4. As things get tighter, you may want to designate a "crud-layer" where you grab pieces off of and dispose garbage you don't need randomly. It is important at this juncture, to have entire groups completed before moving on if at all possible. Note that, there are of course 6 groupings, corresponding to the 6 faces of a cube - and that once you have 3 you are half way there!

5. On the last 2 groupings, pick the one that is "more solved" (arbitrarily, cuz it's hard to ever know for sure) and get to it having a 2x3 block completed. It is now possible to use that column of freedom to sort out the final grouping a bit before solving it.

6. On the final tip-group, use commutators, maybe lots of setup turns (well up to 2 if you are good). Focus on solving the x-centers since they are fully permutation-distinguishable, and it might be prudent to "barrow" from a finished tip-group, wreaking one of its x-centers. Cycling these guys are less expensive in turn-count. Use 8 turns to 3-cycle them if they are not on the same "face"/tip-group. I do have an alg to pure 3-cycle +centers on the same tip, but it costs a bit more turn-wise.

As a side note, every time a tip is finished, I just orientate it. You could do this step 1 stuff at the very end, but there's no point to that. Psychologically, it's nice to see things clear up sooner rather than later. Good luck and Nasmaste!


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:54 pm 
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I just solved 1.1.5. It was very tedious because the best algorithm I could find to rotate the one-stickered triangles was 20 moves long. I am not looking forward to 1.1.4 and 1.1.6 as they require the same thing. Is it fair to call 1.1.6 the master pentultimate? It is comparable to the master skewb in the way it looks just like the pentultimate is to the skewb.

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I just solved 4.2.7, or what I like to call Professors Trajber's Octahedron

I would consider 4.2.10 the Professor Trajber Octahedron because it is exactly the same as a professor cube (just a different color scheme).
For the 4.2.7, I solved it the exact same way as you. Man, you are getting a lot of least move counts. I never really tried to get low counts, so I might redo some to get lower.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:05 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
gelatinbrain wrote:
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
That was wrong. You put it under 12-color version, I did the 8-color (f7 version). Do you think it's safe for me to do the other 6.2.x now? Like did you check the correctness of your code and fix that bug? Or can you tell if it's a bug that is only on the 8-color and not the other ones?

I think this is a bug for the entire 6.2 family. Unfortunately I have for a while no time to check my codes.
I will announce here when I fixed it. 8-)

Thanks.
While solving octa_v6, I think that being able to do middle slice turns would be very useful here. Perhaps add it as Ctrl-click? You know... I am a programmer too, if you want help on this, I would be interested in working on the code.


Call me crazy but shouldn't you e-mail him because he doesn't visit the form everyday unlike me and you'll get your answer faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:32 pm 
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Campbell wrote:
I just solved 1.1.5. It was very tedious because the best algorithm I could find to rotate the one-stickered triangles was 20 moves long. I am not looking forward to 1.1.4 and 1.1.6 as they require the same thing. Is it fair to call 1.1.6 the master pentultimate? It is comparable to the master skewb in the way it looks just like the pentultimate is to the skewb.

Ya, Master Pentultimate sounds perfect. I see what you mean.

Campbell wrote:
I would consider 4.2.10 the Professor Trajber Octahedron because it is exactly the same as a professor cube (just a different color scheme).
For the 4.2.7, I solved it the exact same way as you. Man, you are getting a lot of least move counts. I never really tried to get low counts, so I might redo some to get lower.

As long as you don't out do me :), give it your best shot. Technically though, Michael still has like 6 more than me. But I could potentially tie it on 3 puzzles, by bumping him down - he'd go -3 and I'd go +3. But that's not as realistic since I've tried pretty hard on the ones he's 1FM (1st in Fewest Moves) on. Alternatively, it'd be helpful if someone else bumped him a bit to make it easier for me to catch up. Either way, He pretty much slaughters everybody on time and I don't think there is even hope of anyone catching up on 1T with him.

I haven't gotten all the way though the 4.2.x, so you are probably right on the naming. I'm about to post on 4.2.8, which is a very different puzzle [than 4.2.7].

Darren Grewe wrote:
Call me crazy but shouldn't you e-mail him because he doesn't visit the form everyday unlike me and you'll get your answer faster.

What makes you think I didn't... in fact I did a couple times the past few months and on that issue initially, but I do get responses much faster here then through e-mail for some reason. Here's the way I see it. I think it's clear to most of the other members on this thread, and assumed that he does visit this thread everyday. Moreover, it's not clear that you visit everyday to me because this is the only thread I read here, and I don't see you posting much.

The only reason I might choose not to post here is if I don't want to clutter the thread with back-and-forth conversation between two people. However, the bugs I catch and the thoughts I have on the puzzles are pertinent for everybody. If someone else finds a bug or suggestion to improve the applets, I'd love to hear it too.


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:00 pm 
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Time for 4.2.8 commentary.

Turn-Count Ranking:
1 Doug Cube 207 10/07/08
2 Michael Gottlieb 279 18/12/07
3 Campbell 345 02/06/08
4 Noah Hevey 352 05/01/08
5 Daniel Devitt 396 08/07/08


This puzzle is very different from the last guy, 4.2.7, I must say. It wasn't until half way though solving it that I realized I should have solved the middle-edges first, then the centers OR the other way around. I turns out that each of these pieces types can be and should be, solved very independently. Moreover one should fix tip-orientations a bit carefully to score some edges after what I will call "reduction" or "conversion".

I forgot the incredibly unnecessary initial tip-orientation step. What you should do is immediately block out and considered on the pieces for the "5x5 super-centers group" (with some x-center indistinguishability - incredibly helpful btw). Then I would have hit "Scramble" and immediately went at it with the full force of the powerful '5x5 centers method' I have perfected on the 5x5, but with some minor modifications of course. But for instance the "x-center indistinguishability factor", is similar to non-super 5x5 centers (mathematicians call it "modding out" in the group theory sense btw). So anyhow, I can apply certain 'advanced tricks' here from the 5x5.

The puzzle is so clean and close to finished looking after this "reduction" phase.

Then you should solve the pyraminx-style edges. I call them external-edges because of their function. It's like Pyraminx-Crystal and *exactly* like 4.2.4 (since you don't care about centers, so pretend there are none). Do not need shift-click at all for this step.

It has 4.2.3 or 4.2.6 type center pieces. And they are easy to 3-cycle independently of anything else. For his phase we can hold down the shift-key. Btw, why isn't there a shift-key locking option, it'd be cool if "cap locks" works (but it's an OS-triggering thing, and probably not something Java code can access - I'm it's not a "common virtual key" define/constant).

Anyhow I could reduce my turn-count by 20 or so on another try, but time to move on to 4.2.9.


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:11 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:

Darren Grewe wrote:
Call me crazy but shouldn't you e-mail him because he doesn't visit the form everyday unlike me and you'll get your answer faster.

What makes you think I didn't... in fact I did a couple times the past few months and on that issue initially, but I do get responses much faster here then through e-mail for some reason.


I'm sorry I didn't know I apologize for that.

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Here's the way I see it. I think it's clear to most of the other members on this thread, and assumed that he does visit this thread everyday. Moreover, it's not clear that you visit everyday to me because this is the only thread I read here, and I don't see you posting much.
-Doug


Just because I don't post much doesn't mean I don't visit the form. I was here when they first started but I didn't post anything for like 5 month's. I love twistypuzzles form because I visit everyday, every hour when I'm awake and not work. I don't post much anymore and I don't know why.

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X-TownCuber wrote:
Are my eyes deceiving me, or is this the coolest puzzle ever?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:29 pm 
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On 5.2.2, I will use the term edge-group, to refer to the 4 pieces in the center of an edge.

I have it almost solved except two flipped edge-groups located opposite from each other. I can not figure this out after many attempts. Is this solvable within the segmented 5.2.1? Or is there a parity involved. (Like 2 swapped edge pairs on a 4x4, you can't solve it in the segmented 3x3.)

In general, I am fairly lost as to how to solve this class of puzzles. I can pair up edge-groups. I can 3-cycle the outer-face pieces while messing up corners. I can 3-cycle the corners while messing up the outer-face pieces. And I can work with the central-center pieces I guess.... Solving these is really confusing. And I think that with both the 8-sided and 4-sided we need more "Views". I'd like to be able to see a tetrahedral puzzle with a tip in the center.

For the octahedra, it would be helpful to also lock the view with corner on top, bottom, left, right, and center instead of just how it is now.

I did fumble around and solve 5.3.2 today.


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:07 pm 
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I'm still stuck on figuring out the Dino Octa. I know its and old topic now but I can't seem to get it to change into a Pyraminx with fixed centers like Campbell said. I can get every other step but the Pyraminx one. I can't seem to get the 5x5 edge paring aspect of it like Campbell said a couple pages ago. Any help?

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| avg of 12: 32.10
| PB : 22.92 np PLL skip
| PB2 : 26.75 np no skips


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:01 pm 
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fusion wrote:
I'm still stuck on figuring out the Dino Octa. I know its and old topic now but I can't seem to get it to change into a Pyraminx with fixed centers like Campbell said. I can get every other step but the Pyraminx one. I can't seem to get the 5x5 edge paring aspect of it like Campbell said a couple pages ago. Any help?


For the step you are stuck on, you try to match up corners with two of the one-stickered triangle pieces that are not part of your solved faces. I have a video of me solving the dino octa here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgEi812QXSA. This step is at about 1:17. I hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:30 pm 
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fusion wrote:
I'm still stuck on figuring out the Dino Octa. I know its and old topic now but I can't seem to get it to change into a Pyraminx with fixed centers like Campbell said. I can get every other step but the Pyraminx one. I can't seem to get the 5x5 edge paring aspect of it like Campbell said a couple pages ago. Any help?

I have become just as adept as Campbell on this puzzle class, THANKS TO HIM. Although he still has a better turn-count than me on Dino Octa (4.1.3). I managed to pull off the lead on 4.1.2, 4.1.5, and 4.1.7 though 4.1.10 somehow.

There are two steps to what you are talking about. But they are very similar so let's start with the first... Pick 4 pairwise-nonadjacent faces/colors. There are only two such sets, and I don't use one more than the other to be somewhat color-neutral. But in my example, let's choose Orange, Bright-Green, Dark-Blue, and Puke. The other colors would be Yellow, Light-Blue, Dark-Green, and Tan (or sometimes I call it Brown). This is my naming for the colors.

EDIT: YOU HAVE TO PLACE ALL 12 EDGES NOW.
Although you can (and I do) place all the 12 edges in to place. However, you only need to get the right stickers on the 4 chosen faces. It is technically okay to have them bit out of place, with scrambled edge coloration on the other 4 sides, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). Next using Pryaminx-type turns and regarding two opposite stickers next to the same tip, as being bandaged together, try and maximize the amount of those pieces solved on the 4 chosen faces. We ignore the actual corner/tip pieces for now. We are working on the triangular stickers next to the tips. The two sets of colors form distinct orbitals so you don't have as much to worry about.

The goal is to have as all 7 stickers in the middle of each of the 4 selected faces solved (counting the center piece and not the corners). Near the end of this step you will run into problems. You might need to do plenty of "lose 1, gain 2" tactics. Another idea is to 'flip' 2 groups - one flipping will solve 1 sticker, and the other flips something of the same color on both sides to not disturb anything else. You will need to do some 3-cycles in tight situations (the very end). I do this when only 2 stickers left are out of place. Say we want to swap A and B. What I do is flip 2 of the groups - one being A/A the other being anything else we barrow (that is in a convenient spot), call it C/D. We to the 8-turn alg to flip these two groups and get A/A, D/C. Then we do a single turn to bring in B and have B/A, D/C. We do the flippie thing again to get A/B, C/D. We bring the other A back and are left with A/B, C/D.

Now solve the edges fully.

The second step to transforming/reducing the puzzle into Pyraminx is to pair the corners with their triangular pieces while *not losing the stuff on the 4 chosen sides*. Extra care must be taken. And the strategy is actually slightly different because we want to 'pair': lining things up with the corners which are unsolved, instead of placing them on their designated faces, which can be a little confusing. This is why we use the 5x5 edge-pairing analogy. This step is much easier/faster/quicker, because you can interchange corners to your advantage, usually using a 4-turn alg - which kicks a formed semi-pair and places in garbage (of if you want to be smart about it you can of course form 2 semi-pairs by picking the right guy). You will have to use single turn setups, the 4-turn thing, and then unto the setup... repeat until finished.

Of particular difference between these two steps is that doing the last 2 groups is SO easy, because you can just kick the formed pair out and drop in a solved semi-pair of the other color before the backswing turn.

Now solve the Pyraminx with core-pieces already oriented.


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:58 pm 
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Thank you guys for your help. I was able to solve it and I will definitely redo it to get a better time. It all just came to me after watching your video a few times Campbell. :wink: I will have to work on it later. One thing I was missing from understanding all of this was flipping two pieces like on a Pyraminx. When I saw that in your video Campbell I finally figured out where I was going wrong. Thank you for the help.

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| avg of 12: 32.10
| PB : 22.92 np PLL skip
| PB2 : 26.75 np no skips


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:43 pm 
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fusion wrote:
Thank you guys for your help. I was able to solve it and I will definitely redo it to get a better time. It all just came to me after watching your video a few times Campbell. :wink: I will have to work on it later. One thing I was missing from understanding all of this was flipping two pieces like on a Pyraminx. When I saw that in your video Campbell I finally figured out where I was going wrong. Thank you for the help.

That video was ridiculously fast, and I couldn't keep up with it at the beginning. I don't think that fast, I try to plan ahead in moves and come up with paths that reduce moves or leave me with better position for the next part. I actually use the "undo" button quite a lot, sometimes I'm so unsatisfied I just hit "scramble" again. I tried again a few times to reduce turn-count on my Dino-Octa but still can't beat Campbell, so I give up.

On the bright side, I have over taken Michael as 1FM leader. This was from completing the 4.2.x series today. There are 10 puzzles there, and only on 4.2.2 (Magic Octahedron) and 4.2.6 am I not 1FM. It would be nice to truly dominate an entire category... so I might try for it, but 22 turns on 4.2.2 is kinda partly luck, and ridiculously low. But then again I pulled 29 on 4.2.1. I came really close for 4.2.6 so I tried again, but didn't beat my own record.

So anyways, you do know an 8-turn alg for flipping two edges on a Pyraminx right? If not play around with it to figure one out. I think that it's optimal right?

I solved 3.6.1 (Skewb-2x2-Helicopter hybrid) today. My very first try ever was like ~72 turns, nearly half the old lowest turn-count (114), and then I tried again and ran into parity, but on the 3rd or 4th I got down to low 60s. I wonder why it's not listed yet, GB usually puts things up once a day it seems. I wonder why you guys took so many turns on it. I even did on part in time with y'all.

I have lots of difficulty with the edge-turning tetras. And the edge-turning cubes scare me, despite having done a few before the scorebording... which is because I vaguely recall it being painfully long, like 3000-turn count, multiple sittings long. Take just 3.3.3 for example. It takes about 25 minutes of prep work just to load up my alg arsenal. And no telling how long it will take to solve each piece-type. I take a break in between each phase usually, cuz it's so long. Although for 3.3.3 fusion pulled a 43min solve, and AndrewG a 53min solve, so perhaps it's not all that bad.

I think instead I will focus on finishing off the Spheres, 6.2.x to say that I killed off one or the 6 main categories. Although, the Spheres can really be *cast* into Cubes (shape-changing, 45-deg turning ones). Speaking of which, I really think GB should implement the Square-1 puzzle, not because it's particularly fun, aesthetically appealing, or that people who frequent his site would want one - but because it'd be a GREAT programming challenge for the dude (and loads of fun!).

Btw, I'm reclaiming 1FM on the silly 3x3 Maze Cube (3.7.2) from Devitt tonight. So *HA*!
Erm... Noah and fusion trump me on 3x3 Arrow Cube. That will have to be RECTIFIED :evil: :evil: :evil: .


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:04 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Btw, I'm reclaiming 1FM on the silly 3x3 Maze Cube (3.7.2) from Devitt tonight. So *HA*!


you can go ahead and try but it was a some-what lucky scramble and that was actually the only solve I've done on it so I can probably reduce it if I try

besides, I only have 3 FM points! you have 42!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:11 pm 
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Danny Devitt wrote:
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Btw, I'm reclaiming 1FM on the silly 3x3 Maze Cube (3.7.2) from Devitt tonight. So *HA*!


you can go ahead and try but it was a some-what lucky scramble and that was actually the only solve I've done on it so I can probably reduce it if I try

What I meant was: I already have.

Just sizing-up the 4.1.1 (Skewb Diamond), and DUDE, just 8 turns! I'll let my April solve stand. I suspect it's not worth the effort (not time-wise or turn-wise). All of my algs for it are longer than 8 turns...

EDIT: I spoke too soon. I made just *ONE* attempt for it, just to laugh at my futility. I GOT IT IN 5 TURNS, 7 SECS! (nearly half both time and turn records)
Random clicks folks, random clicks... - that's they way to go. No need for our years of puzzle theory, or our expertise in freestyle commutators. Just close your eyes and *believe* :). "Don't try to solve puzzles like 6.2.2, that's impossible... instead only try to realize the truth: there is no spoon." (-The Matrix).

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averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:31 pm 
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I was responding as you were editing and when I saw that I was about ready to kill you! As for the 3x3 maze record, if it's not too much better than mine I'll try to beat it... but GB needs to update so I can see what I'm up against. My only other FM record is on the dino cube and that too is obviously lucky.

My main focus happens to be most puzzles solved though so I really need to work on that. I haven't done much solving the past few days though and I won't be able to at all this weekend :(

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:26 am 
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Danny Devitt wrote:
I was responding as you were editing and when I saw that I was about ready to kill you! As for the 3x3 maze record, if it's not too much better than mine I'll try to beat it... but GB needs to update so I can see what I'm up against. My only other FM record is on the dino cube and that too is obviously lucky.

why? kill: that's a little extreme.
I hadn't even noticed... that my 5 turns on Dino in December got beat with 4 turns from two guys in April and June. Another thing STOLEN from me. Ya it's somewhat meaningless FM one to take, but you have it and earned it. Just as I earned a really, absurdly ridiculous Skewb Diamond entry for my 7 seconds worth of effort.

There should be some sort of prize for leaders on this thing. Surely Campbell deserves something for finishing off the entire 5.x.x class (27 puzzles). Soon I might be able to say I did the 6.x.x, but that's just 7 puzzles. Oh, and I think Noah had finished off all the 1.1.x, but before introduction of crap like Super-Pentultimate - algs that orient corners disturb center orientation; algs that orient centers disturb corner orientation (realized from doing its dual, the Icosa-Pentultimate). And we are talking about really lengthy maneuvers. So, whatever this Teodovich did... it's ungodly.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:59 am 
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well noah hasn't done 1.1.7b (although you claim it doesn't count), 1.1.8, 1.1.13, or 1.1.14

nobody's done any of those though except for teodovich with his super crazy 1.1.7b solve!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:34 am 
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holy crap! I just saw ur 3x3 maze record! ok well you win, there's no way I can beat that or even come close

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:22 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I spoke too soon. I made just *ONE* attempt for it, just to laugh at my futility. I GOT IT IN 5 TURNS, 7 SECS! (nearly half both time and turn records)

The Skewb Diamond. You have a 7.628% chance of it being 5 or less turns away form solved (1 + 8 + 48 + 288 + 1632 + 8568)/138240.
Seeing the 5 turns when it is 5 turns, is ridiculous since there are 8 possible first turns and 6 possible non-first turns giving 10368 possible 5-'clickings' (not counting whole-puzzle orientation).
Every Skewb Diamond can be solved in 10 or less turns. In fact, only 15 out of 138240 configurations require 10 turns. Solved state is 1 of the 138240 = (2^3)(6!)(4!).

Yet, it is unclear how well the 500 turn scrambles map into the random state-space of the puzzle. So... eh *shrugs*.

Either way, I got very lucky as I tend to these days....

Btw, I just took 1FM on all 10 of the 4.2.x - it's good to be king :).

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:37 pm 
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For Hexa_v1 (3.2.2 Master Skewb), there is a turn-counting bug in the code I believe (and perhaps other puzzles with similar situations). Shift-clicking on opposites of puzzles where the moving layer is the same can be over-counted. For instance try this: open up 3.2.2, shift-click the central corner of the left-image and then shift-click the central corner of the right image to "Undo". The turn count goes 0->1->2 instead of 0->1->0. With clever coding, this can be changed to behave more rationally.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:05 pm 
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I will have to solve some puzzles later as I just got my White Eastsheen set 2x2, 4x4, and 5x5 along with a DIY Square-1. I have some things to do!

Doug
I have figured out a simple 4x4-like method to solving the half chop. I found my own 3-cycle but I will try to solve it later as I have just got my new puzzles!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:19 pm 
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3.2.2 - Master Skewb - hexa_v1:

I started with a 25 turn Skewb solve of the corners and centers. Then I somehow managed to to do the 12 edge pieces at 155 turn-count. I am left with 4 square pieces on each side, which I have no idea how to solve. And hints, suggestions, recommendations?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:49 pm 
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Doug
The way I solve the Master Skewb is to solve the corners, use Dino Cube edge 3-cycles to keep the corners in place and cycle edges. and then solve it like 3.2.6.

I just blew away Dougs Half-Chop-2x2 Hybrid solve! Just have a look and see.


Attachments:
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solved.JPG [ 53.6 KiB | Viewed 2212 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:02 pm 
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fusion wrote:
The way I solve the Master Skewb is to solve the corners, use Dino Cube edge 3-cycles to keep the corners in place and cycle edges. and then solve it like 3.2.6.
Thanks. I'll have to think about that, cuz I don't quite get it yet.

fusion wrote:
I just blew away Dougs Half-Chop-2x2 Hybrid solve! Just have a look and see.

It appears you did (on 3.5.1). That's good, both for time and moves. I didn't really know what I was doing on that puzzle, but I think I could shave a few moves off if I tried harder. It was my only attempt, so that might explain my 3hr time. But it just adds to my total tally, so I'm probably not going to redo that.

Image
I solved 6.2.4. Okay so, I suspect (and I hadn't even noticed this before) that the octagonal center pieces have 8-fold symmetry, not 4-fold like I had subconsciously assumed. Knowing this partway though the solve allowed some minor optimizations. So I think that GB's code bug might be due to this issue. Another possibility is that it doesn't factor out all the possible permutation-indistinguishabilities (and I can see why it would be so ridiculously hard to do so from a programmer's perspective).


-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:27 pm 
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I solved 6.2.3. Oh and the color scheme of the icon doesn't match the actual one (like many others on GB's site)...

I'm posting here cuz, GB tends to manually add entries to the scoreboard for buggy puzzles that don't know they are solved. I hit print-screen immediately, and then check solved-ness manually by revolving to be extra certain.

The edge-groups here are really easy like, but not as much as the Oblong version, this is because here each edge-group is unique and on the other one, there are two of each.... making parity issues easier to solve, and setup maneuvers not as cumbersome by borrowing another edge-group of the same color. Here, I was stuck for probably 20 minutes trying to figure out a way to fix parity for when two outer-wings remained out of place.

This parity stumper was something I tried many ways to solve. A lot of the last few puzzles I've worked on, I used pen & paper (think 3x3 Maze cube turn optimization). I would mark down the turn-count before attempting something. For this parity problem, I would make over 100 turns and then go back to the old turn-count using lots of 'Undo', I would try something else for a while and have to undo and so forth...

I finally realize my stupidity. I needed to think more like "last two 5x5 edges [in 5x5 reduction method]" (although there are 2 sets of inside-wings on split-orbitals). I needed to swap two semi-pairs, flip one of the edge-groups, undo the swap action, and then jump everything over to the opposite orbital to pair the other way. In this regard, it's **exactly like edge-pairing on the 4.1.8-4.1.10**.

Note: I use the term "semi-pair" as defined/used by Arnuad, but in such a way that there are *4* semi-pairs to each edge-group, as there are 2 on each end each. Again, think 4.1.8...

Seeing the light at the end of the tunnel..., I was a bit sloppy on the last pairings on this parity solution, and ran into another type of parity: Two or the face-corners needed to be swapped. This is troublesome since my first step in solving Spherical puzzles is to do the pieces (forming center-groups). In this case (6.2.3) the first step was a lot like "doing +centers only on a super-5x5".

After being stumped again for a while, I borrow an idea from 'Dino Octa'. For when two pieces remain out of place (like they need to be 2-cycled, but really 3-cycle it with a solved on of one of the two colors). Except here, I needed to do that on both orbitals in parallel.


-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:57 pm 
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I solved the 6.2.1, 6-color shallow-cut sphere. I'm a lot more comfortable solving the various "4.1.8 edge-pairing" parities that might surface on it. This one was a bit tricker, after I got it into the right *shape*, the edge grouping process started off very rapidly due to the high number of randomly already formed semi-pairs available (because of the 4-fold indistinguishability among the inside-wing pieces). The last part was a bit tricky, and I decided to just place the outer-wing pieces first (I just had one 3-cycle for that) and then go back and handle the cycling of the inside-wing pieces within their own orbitals, by borrowing from already solved edge-groups as needed. So two more 3-cycles.

GB: this one does not appear buggy. It 'Game Over'-ed by itself, and allowed me to enter name, and get certificate. I'm more convinced now that it does not have to do with the octagonal face orientations (or I was *incredibly* lucky not to fall into the wrong parity space while forming square faces).

EDIT: I have just solved all 7 of the 6.x.x puzzles! Don't I deserve a cookie?


-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:14 pm 
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DUDE! Today Campbell solved the Super-Pentultimate (1.1.7b) in 31:36 using 664 turns. That's incredible!

BUT HOW? Tell us your secret.

nice 1.2.1 time also... all together it looks like you've been very productive today, and most of your times land in 2nd place.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:55 am 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
DUDE! Today Campbell solved the Super-Pentultimate (1.1.7b) in 31:36 using 664 turns. That's incredible!

BUT HOW? Tell us your secret.

nice 1.2.1 time also... all together it looks like you've been very productive today, and most of your times land in 2nd place.


Did you also notice my Icosa-Pentultimate time? 11:26 in 425 moves :D . I'm gonna redo the normal pentultimate because that time was just when I was figuring it out. All I did for the Super-Pentultimate was solve the centers. They weren't too hard except for where I needed to rotate one center. Then I just solved the corners with Noah's (R++ L-- R-- L++)x3 and setup moves. It was the same with the Icosa-Pentultimate except there is no corner orientation and I didn't run into the parity.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:37 pm 
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Can somebody give me an idea of which order they solved the pieces on 1.1.4?

I solved it all but the inner edges, but I very much doubt that this is the order that other people have done it in.
(Corners, Edges, Centers, -->inners)

I could probably work it out from there, and I might give 1.1.5 a run for its money too.

also, Campbell were you refering to a Parity on the Icosa-Pentultimate or the Super-Pentultimate?

If Icosa then I guess its just the 10 colour parity that you get

If theres a Parity on the Super-Pentultimate then WTF


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:43 pm 
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Percy wrote:
Can somebody give me an idea of which order they solved the pieces on 1.1.4?
I solved it all but the inner edges, but I very much doubt that this is the order that other people have done it in.
(Corners, Edges, Centers, -->inners)

That is actually how I did it. Basically solve the pyraminx crystal part, then the centers, and finally the inner isosceles triangles.

Percy wrote:
Campbell were you refering to a Parity on the Icosa-Pentultimate or the Super-Pentultimate?
If Icosa then I guess its just the 10 colour parity that you get
If theres a Parity on the Super-Pentultimate then WTF

I am not talking about the 10 color parity. I am talking about the parity where only one corner (or center pentagon for the super-pentultimate) needs to be rotated. It isn't too difficult.

The same parity shows up in 2.2.3 and 2.2.4 as well and is much more of a pain (if you solve the edge pieces first).
I solved the 2.2.4 in 1:23:42 and 1646 moves. About 30 minutes of it was fixing the corner rotation parity. Other than that, I solved it the same way I did 1.1.5.

Changing the subject, I would like to make a request, gelatinbrain: a ctrl-click on 1.1.13.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:19 pm 
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well, I was out of town all weekend so no progress then.
but today when I got back I did the first solution on a puzzle which has been overlooked so far :)
also did the fat heli cube.

also, after I said earlier that 3.3.6 looked to be the hardest non-hybrid cube listed...
it still might be, but it isn't nearly as hard as I thought it was. I think it might take me about 1200-1400 moves (or maybe less) but idk if I'm gonna get around to actually doing it soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:45 pm 
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Campbell wrote:
Percy wrote:
Can somebody give me an idea of which order they solved the pieces on 1.1.4?
I solved it all but the inner edges, but I very much doubt that this is the order that other people have done it in.
(Corners, Edges, Centers, -->inners)

That is actually how I did it. Basically solve the pyraminx crystal part, then the centers, and finally the inner isosceles triangles.

Same here. But to reduce turn count, I was extremely careful about setting up perfect 3-cycles for the inner-triangular pieces on the last step. For the first step (or first two), you can apply turn-optimization tricks from Pyraminx Crystal by solving the edges and corners at 'sort of' the same time...

Anyhow, I'm surprised that GB hasn't added my 2 other 6.2.x solves. It seems I need 2 more to tie Noah now.

Although I solved 3.2.2 (Master Skewb), I think I figured out a very efficient way to do it and 3.2.3. That will be my main goal for tonight: to get 1FM on both. AndrewG's 189 could be very hard to beat though...

I have some good ideas on the Edge-Turning Tetra now too. It wasn't that I hadn't gotten to them yet - those have actually eluded me for quite some time.


-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:43 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Although I solved 3.2.2 (Master Skewb), I think I figured out a very efficient way to do it and 3.2.3. That will be my main goal for tonight: to get 1FM on both. AndrewG's 189 could be very hard to beat though...

Apparently not that hard. Using 39 minutes instead of 38 yesterday..., I got a 141 instead of 621. Big improvement, and I DARE anybody to try and beat that.

I didn't solve corners first.
I didn't solve edge first.
I did something really freaky and reduced it to a Skewb - a lot like reducing a 4x4 to a 3x3.

I think I will be slaughtering the 3.2.3 later tonight. I can reduce it to a 3.2.2 as the first step.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:51 pm 
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I just solved 1.1.8 in 1:27:59 and 1369 turns. It's a mix between the megaminx and pentultimate.

It took so long because I wasn't sure what I was doing. The first thing I did was match the corners up with the three obtuse triangles around it. After that, I put the corners and middles in the right spot. I then realized I needed to move middles around again, because the only way I could rotate the skinny isosceles triangles on the edges was to rotate two sets of three of them and three centers.

So I have all of the face turning dodecahedra solved (except for 1.1.13 and 1.1.14 if you count them, but I plan to solve them soon).

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I didn't solve corners first.
I didn't solve edge first.
I did something really freaky and reduced it to a Skewb - a lot like reducing a 4x4 to a 3x3.

I think I will be slaughtering the 3.2.3 later tonight. I can reduce it to a 3.2.2 as the first step.


I think you did it the same way Noah and I did it. I also solved the professor's skewb by reducing it to a master skewb like you. Great minds think alike :).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:48 am 
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Campbell wrote:
I just solved 1.1.8 in 1:27:59 and 1369 turns. It's a mix between the megaminx and pentultimate.

That's ridiculous. I never know what I'm doing on those things, and I was the first on the scoreboard for Pentultimate. I've been working on figuring out the edge-turning tetra still.

Maybe it's time you solve one of the 6.1.x. I think you have all you need to know for it.

Campbell wrote:
It took so long because I wasn't sure what I was doing. The first thing I did was match the corners up with the three obtuse triangles around it. After that, I put the corners and middles in the right spot. I then realized I needed to move middles around again, because the only way I could rotate the skinny isosceles triangles on the edges was to rotate two sets of three of them and three centers.

I'll have to come back and re-read this when I try to solve 1.1.8. I'm avoiding it for as long as possible though, and I still have like 8 Dogics left and all the edge-tetra.

Campbell wrote:
I think you did it the same way Noah and I did it. I also solved the professor's skewb by reducing it to a master skewb like you. Great minds think alike :).

Thanks. FrankM once said that to me. "Great minds think alike" is not something I hear often though.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:27 am 
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Campbell wrote:
That is actually how I did it. Basically solve the pyraminx crystal part, then the centers, and finally the inner isosceles triangles.

Damn. Damn you and your freestyle 3-Cycles.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:30 am 
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@doug: how did you reduce the master skewb to a skewb? that doesn't seem possible. what did you do with the edges?

@Campbell: I thought about reduction for the professor skewb, but then I ended up using cage metho, direct solving the centers. it's interesting that we came in basically tied for moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:37 am 
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AndrewG wrote:
@doug: how did you reduce the master skewb to a skewb? that doesn't seem possible. what did you do with the edges?

Well it's not that hard to imagine... but for the edge you can attach them to the corners, making 4 big corners and 4 small, regular corners.

I got massively stuck on the 3.2.3 last night, and it's still running. This puzzle is a lot like 4.1.4, and I never worked out a good edge-grouping scheme. I can't really 3-cycle at the end, I just randomly get it using intuition and a lot of time/undo.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:00 pm 
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ah, that is quite an interesting way to do it...

well, I picked up 4 easy points today.
I got a bad turn-count on the master octahedron because I used reduction, so alot of the "moves" got counted as 2 moves. then again, I figure most people encountered this, but I can see a better way to do it to take advantage of the way the applets count turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:35 pm 
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I just solved 1.1.13 in 0:55:36 and 1616 moves. It was a pretty fun one, I thought.

First, I solve the 3-colored hexagons and 2-colored edges like a pyraminx crystal. Then I put all the pentagon centers in the right place. Then I solved all the outside parts of the pentagon faces (corners and wider triangles actually on the hexagon faces) kind of like a master pyraminx crystal. Lastly, I solved the inner triangles of the pentagon faces with an easy 3 cycle algorithm. Only one puzzle left from 1.1.x. I have an idea forming of how to solve 1.1.14, but it may take a while.

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I got massively stuck on the 3.2.3 last night, and it's still running. This puzzle is a lot like 4.1.4, and I never worked out a good edge-grouping scheme. I can't really 3-cycle at the end, I just randomly get it using intuition and a lot of time/undo.


What do you mean be edge-grouping? I attached a pic showing the steps of how I solved it if you want to check it out. (Edit: I just realized step one says 6x6x6 middles. I mean 5x5x5.)
Also, I first really tried the 6.1.x puzzles last night before you mentioned it. I managed to get 6.1.1 in the right shape but couldn't get it intuitively from there. I'll have to try again.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:16 pm 
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AndrewG wrote:
I got a bad turn-count on the master octahedron because I used reduction, so alot of the "moves" got counted as 2 moves. then again, I figure most people encountered this, but I can see a better way to do it to take advantage of the way the applets count turns.

I didn't encounter that! In fact, I have never had to do 2-layer turns on these puzzles (except as needed on certain cancellations).
I think everybody used reduction on 4.2.6..., but I'm perplexed by the fact you used over 3.2 times as many turns as I did.

1. Solve 1 corner-group, by attaching 4 pieces to the corner in the proper order. (It should be less than 4 by picking something already partly done.)
2. Solve the opposite corner-group, using 3-turn simple-replacement sequences (like r U' r').
3. Solve an additional corner-group out of the 4 remaining. Use mostly single turns with setup.
4. Solve the rest in any order, using a greedy-approach.
5. Solve all 12 edges like if they were Pyraminx edges using those types of simple 4-turn commutators.
6. Solve the 8 center pieces using freestyle commutators (for low turn-count). Or solve them using a simple 8-turn alg that cycles 3 on the same 'slice' (figure out an alg that does this if you don't know).

Hold shift for steps 5 and 6. By combining steps 5 and 6 and factoring out the turns on "induced super-centers" (formed by sets of 4 wing pieces on the same slice), you can further reduce turn count dramatically.. Here in steps 5+6, you are solving an induced-4.2.5 (by ignoring 4.2.6's tips). The tips of the induced-4.2.5, correspond to these "induced super-centers" I mention.

I noticed that you have not solved the 4.2.5 [AndrewG]! You are performing reductions into the 4.2.5, so you should get comfy with that one first.

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:52 am 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I got a 141 instead of 621. Big improvement, and I DARE anybody to try and beat that.


I took your dare and solved the master skewb in 130 moves :shock:. The time was 2:44 too.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:37 pm 
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a few new guides added to the old website...
two edge-turing tetrahedra added, also lattice+2x2x2 which isn't hard at all, and Cube EAB1 / 3.3.2 which I currently the only solutionist on :)

perhaps more importantly, I added a common name index for those who don't feel like learning my "notation"

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http://www.geocities.com/sxsk17/umcproject/umchome.html
My website, IT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE but it used to be the only site with "official" guides for the Helicopter Cube, SuperX, Master Skewb, and many more! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:05 pm 
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AndrewG
I am working on the edge turning cubes. You should try 3.4.8, it's not that hard at all. I wrote a small guide maybe a page back you could use if you get stuck. That way you can add it to your site. :)

Doug
I decided I should have gone for a better time and move count on the Half-Chop+2x2 Hybrid. So I did and I like this time. :D

I'm starting to work on every other easy puzzle I havn't solved yet. How long is your guys' double edge flip on the Pyraminx Crystal? I did mine and it's 16 turns.

I going to work on my Octa's and the some of the Tetra's.

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Started cubing Sep. 2006
hi-games.net | Cubemania | youtube/mrCubist

Void Cube
| avg of 12: 32.10
| PB : 22.92 np PLL skip
| PB2 : 26.75 np no skips


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Fusion, my double edge flip for the pyraminx crystal is also 16 turns.

I've been working on 3.3.3 for a while. I've had enough algorithms to solve the whole thing, but I thought it would be time consuming and inefficient. So earlier today I gave up on finding better algs and decided to check out AndrewG's guide. It turns out his strategy and algs were exactly the same as mine (which was a relief because every time I look at a guide I feel like I'm not good enough to figure it out :|).

I solved 3.3.3 and 3.3.2 a few hours ago. So you're not alone on the 3.3.2, AndrewG. However, you do have a better time and turn count on both.
Next will be 3.3.5.

I also improved my pentultimate solve by about 11 minutes and a couple hundred moves: 00:08:27 and 365 moves.
I solve it corners first and centers last. I swap two pairs of centers with a 24 move algorithm: (R L R' L)x6, where R and L are not adjacent and not opposite from eachother.
It may or may not be quicker than centers first, but it seems to work well.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:05 am 
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I've been working on 3.4.8 for a few hours today but I just can't get it! Basically, I can always get it down to having everything solved but a few of the little triangular pieces. One time I had the attached picture. Another time I had to 3-cycle the pieces around a corner... In any case, a 3-cycle or 2-swap (or even a 5-cycle) would be really helpful as well as any helpful hints. (For skewb moves, just notate them using the 3 letters of the faces of the corner)

EDIT: Well with over 7 hours of work and around 3000 moves and still nothing to show for it, I quit! At least for today... I hate that stupid 3-cycle around the corner!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:22 am 
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Danny Devitt wrote:
I've been working on 3.4.8 for a few hours today but I just can't get it! Basically, I can always get it down to having everything solved but a few of the little triangular pieces. One time I had the attached picture. Another time I had to 3-cycle the pieces around a corner... In any case, a 3-cycle or 2-swap (or even a 5-cycle) would be really helpful as well as any helpful hints. (For skewb moves, just notate them using the 3 letters of the faces of the corner)

EDIT: Well with over 7 hours of work and around 3000 moves and still nothing to show for it, I quit! At least for today... I hate that stupid 3-cycle around the corner!

I just spent 40 minutes on 3.4.8, and got down to everything but swapping two adjacent centers.... :x This is the strangest parity I've ever gotten.

EDIT: At the 58 minute mark, and I was able to swap the 2 centers by using 3 Skewb turns and then fix the edges. I now have a single twisted corner that I'm not sure what to do with. All the other pieces are in solved position:
Image

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:39 pm 
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I just solved 3.4.1 (2x2x2+Skewb) with 114 turns, even after parity. It was my first attempt and half of the previous #1 ranked turn-count. Ya!

Reduced time and turn count on 3.4.2 (SuperX) just before that. And I solved 3.4.8 before that. The twisted corner issue pops up a lot on these sorts of puzzles (Face-Turning + Vertex-Turning). *I'll write a separate post on how to solve it.*

I am slowly marching through the 5.2.x, even though I don't have a good grasp of 5.2.1 yet. I can make up 4 more points there. I need 9 to catch up with Campbell, and I have now overtaken Noah (mostly because he hasn't done much lately).

I seem to be having a hard time holding on to 50 points of 1FM, and keep dropping due to Campbell redoing puzzles.

3.4.10 seems like a good puzzle to take on next, since there's only 2 people on its scoreboard so far. Campbell should try that too.

I am still unable to solve 3.2.3...

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:58 pm 
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Solving 3.4.8

Just to make it more readable, I post this separately.

I got to a single twisted corner, and I will call this CO-parity. To get out of it, what I did was 3-cycle the adjacent centers the right way, and then do the single turn to fix that corner's orientation, however this MURDERS the edge-groups. To fix most of these, use the following 3x3 alg (or it's inverse depending on the situation): U R' F2 L F L' F2 R F' U', where the corner is in the center of the view and it's location designated by UFR. This alg 3-cycles the adjoining edge-groups and 3-cycles the neighboring corners back to where they should be.

I feel that this is a waste of turns, since there is the long-ish face-cycle Skewb alg to do, then this corner-repair 3x3 alg to do, and then some horrible commutators to fix edge-groups, and then a 3x3 re-solve.

====
What I did was start by forming all 12 edge-groups haphazardly. To make things a ton easier this is what I think I should have done instead. Form 6 edge-groups, which leaves just enough room to do single Skewb turns without wrecking any edge-groups (by getting them out of the way first). Use this freedom to solve viable face placements and also checking for CO-parity (fix it now before things get ugly).

The first 6 edge-groups, you can use "non-strict" commutators, but after the parity-verification phase, you solve the other 6 edge-groups using "strict" commutators. When I say "strict", I mean always doing and undoing setup moves and stuff. Well, it's possible to shave off a few turns here and there on the first 6 edge-grouping this way.

Once all the edges are grouped, you have reduced it to a *solvable* 3x3. So just solve it.

After I become more adept at forming these sorts of "diamond edge-groups" (found on 3.4.8, 3.2.3, 4.1.5-4.1.10, and the 6.2.x), I will write up a tutorial on it. Various parities and 3-cycles are extremely difficult requiring an optimal 4 commutations or something...

As for Devitt's problem (http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/download/file.php?id=7387)..., well you should have fully paired edges before 3x3 phase. It's not a good place to be. Pretty awful and gross to get it there. Then again I got to single twisted corner... *shrugs*.


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:28 pm 
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I have managed to solve all of the Tetrahedra.

Doug
Congrats on your 3.4.8 solve. I wrote a guide for 3.4.8 back on page 9 that should help you a little. Do you like my Half-Chop+2x2 Hybrid solve? After coming up with a pairing method it works really well.

AndrewG
I solved 3.3.2 in just 2 moves over what Campbell got. I'll try to start on 3.3.5.

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hi-games.net | Cubemania | youtube/mrCubist

Void Cube
| avg of 12: 32.10
| PB : 22.92 np PLL skip
| PB2 : 26.75 np no skips


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