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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Just did the newest 2 of the circle-5x5's, after remembering a pure 5x5 corner-center ( :? ) 3-cycle. I also did the circle helicopter cube, on which I couldn't figure out the triangle pieces at first, but after taking a second look at it, it just a super(helicopter)cube.

At a total of 135 solved puzzles now.

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43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:31 pm 
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Wow schuma, slow down! Not only did you beat my solved number for a moment, but you did so many 3.4.x's today, I don't know if I can keep up with your pace! Because of you I had to go and solve 3 very difficult puzzles this afternoon! OK, I'll stopwriting, and go on clicking, dragging and wrecking my brain a little more... Just 2 puzzles ahead is not enough with such an opponent!

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
I have also been looking at 2.2.3-2.2.5 and i have no idea how to orient the centers without messing up the pyraminx crystal edges so any hints regarding that would be much apriciated.
First find a (3,1) commutator to cycle 3 corners (all adjacent to a different, 4th corner). Then find a move to push one of the 3 corners to a different position so you can cycle the corners back again but with different orientation. This will allow you to twist 2 corners in 18 moves without any effect on the rest of the puzzle except for the little triangles. But it's much more efficient (albeit tricky) to orient the corners at the same time as permuting them.

I still haven't figured out Doug's (UMichSpeedCubist) magic algo to twist a single corner in 24 moves. :?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:15 am 
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Sjoerd wrote:
Wow schuma, slow down! Not only did you beat my solved number for a moment, but you did so many 3.4.x's today, I don't know if I can keep up with your pace! Because of you I had to go and solve 3 very difficult puzzles this afternoon! OK, I'll stopwriting, and go on clicking, dragging and wrecking my brain a little more... Just 2 puzzles ahead is not enough with such an opponent!


Hmm. Now I'm in the second place. There are too many similar puzzles under the 3.4.* category, which can be solved using similar method. That's why my count increases fast. Let us both move fast and catch Michael.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:42 am 
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schuma wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:
Wow schuma, slow down! Not only did you beat my solved number for a moment, but you did so many 3.4.x's today, I don't know if I can keep up with your pace! Because of you I had to go and solve 3 very difficult puzzles this afternoon! OK, I'll stopwriting, and go on clicking, dragging and wrecking my brain a little more... Just 2 puzzles ahead is not enough with such an opponent!


Hmm. Now I'm in the second place. There are too many similar puzzles under the 3.4.* category, which can be solved using similar method. That's why my count increases fast. Let us both move fast and catch Michael.


You are genius!

I really want to catch Michael too, but unfortunately, he probably thinks the same way about the 3.4.x's, so he too can get another sprint.

Aaaaaaaaanyway, I spent my last 3 hours on this incredible monster:
Attachment:
1.1.20.JPG
1.1.20.JPG [ 76.86 KiB | Viewed 4036 times ]


My method, again consisting of one veeeeeeeery long alg ( 80 moves this tim xD, but hey, there's an algoritm bar and it's almost pure :wink: ) and a couple of easy ones, for which I don't need the algoritm bar.

1. Pair up the 1-pieces
2. use a very long algo to match the 2-pieces with the 1-pieces
3. solve the paired up edges and centers (3) as you would with a starminx
4. Use starminx-like algos and a lot of setup moves to solve the 4- and 5-pieces.

So first reduction, and then some by piece-kind.

at 142 now :D Just 23 to go!

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43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Indeed, most of the 3.4.x puzzles are very easy, the only ones I don't have a solution for are 3.4.4 (not quite sure about pairing up centers, but I'll find something) and 3.4.17/3.4.20 (can't find a nice way to reduce edges yet).

Did you know: I'm not really interested in having the most puzzles solved count :p I just do a lot of puzzles so I can have a lot of chances at records.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:31 pm 
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@Sjored in regards to 1.1.20 even though you probably won't need it because you won't be solving it again (althought it also works for the similar pieces on 1.1.18) i have a 10 move pure 3 cycle for those #2 pieces which i'd say is a little nicer than an 80 move alg :wink: . Anyway here it is.
/*000000*/F'2&2,
/*000001*/C2&2,
/*000002*/F2&2,
/*000003*/C'2&2,
/*000004*/C,
/*000005*/C2&2,
/*000006*/F'2&2,
/*000007*/C'2&2,
/*000008*/F2&2,
/*000009*/C',

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:24 am 
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Why can't I come up with those short ones! Mine was a combination of a corner-rotating algo for the pentultimate, a couple of starminx turns, and the pentultimate-algo reversed, starminx-algo reversed. The pentultimate-algo usually requires 17 moves, but to one pent-turn on this one, the move count goes up by two... so 34...

But your algorithm gives me a new insight, so it might be useful for other puzzles!

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:06 am 
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Glad i could help you Sjoerd, it made me feel smart. Especialy because you have solved so manny more puzzles than me :)

Julian wrote:
First find a (3,1) commutator to cycle 3 corners (all adjacent to a different, 4th corner). Then find a move to push one of the 3 corners to a different position so you can cycle the corners back again but with different orientation. This will allow you to twist 2 corners in 18 moves without any effect on the rest of the puzzle except for the little triangles. But it's much more efficient (albeit tricky) to orient the corners at the same time as permuting them.

I still haven't figured out Doug's (UMichSpeedCubist) magic algo to twist a single corner in 24 moves. :?


I read through this and thought "That sure sounds complicated. Perhaps I'll leave these for a latter date" and then i decided i'd have a go at solving them corners first and well my 714 move solve (my first solve at that) of 2.2.5 which beat the privious reccord of 987 by 273 moves seems to suggest it was a good idea :lol: . This is only the seccond very complex (in my opinion) puzzle i've come up with my own, brand new, solution for, the first was 1.1.15, so i'm pretty proud of it. :)

Solution outline for 2.2.5 Corners first 8-)

1. Obviously the corners. This is done just like a super or icosa-pentultimate. (julian has an excelent guide back on page 24)

2. Solve 5 two colour (pyraminx crystal) edges around a corner then solve the other 5 that go right next to them. This is done using simple and extremely dirty (1,1) slice comutators. this got very hard so i then gave up on those pieces for now

3. Solve centers. Just like icosa-pentultimate.

4. Solve face trapezoids (starminx face triangles). I found this confusing because i was so used to set up moves on the starminx but you can't have the exact same view on an icosahedron.

5. Solve the rest of the two colour edges. This was only possible after i found a pure 10 move three cycle which is prettymuch the same as the alg i gave
Sjoerd for 1.1.20 it's a (4,1) comutator which had some very difficult set up moves.

I almost gave up and went to bed at the last step but then realised i was so far ahead of the move count reccord and persevered hahaha. This one was so hard i don't know how long it will be untill i get up the will power to solve the similar 2.2.4

Edit: I now realise that this could be improved upon. Change step 1 to solve all icosimate pieces as the later stages don't mess with them and you can save a few moves as it would be more efficient than doing the corners and centers in two steps. Also change the (4,1) comutator in step 5 (which would now be step 4 due to no step 3) to a (3,1) again saving more moves. now i think i could get it possibly down to 650 moves but that is a little optemistic. Not really corners first anymore is it.... I supose you could call it Elwyn's method if you wanted :lol:

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Last edited by Elwyn on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:29 am 
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I've been working on a 1.1.4 method but I can't solve the inner triangle pieces yet. I really like the cuts in this puzzle and the way it turns but I still can't solve it. Others have mentioned having a 3-cycle but the best I have is a 3-cycle of pairs:

Attachment:
1_1_4.png
1_1_4.png [ 21.49 KiB | Viewed 4025 times ]


It's currently at 30 moves and I have tried turning this into a pure 3-cycle without any success. For the 13 of you that have solved it, I'd love to hear about your triangle solving method.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:58 am 
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Do you want hints or just a pure alg? If you look back through this thread (on the page just before this one) Julian gives some very good hints for 1.1.5 which has the same triangle pieces that you are having trouble with.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:57 am 
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Thanks for pointing that out. When I saw that post 2 weeks ago I didn't yet realize that 1.1.5 was just 1.1.4 without corners.

Julian wrote:
3. Triangles. Cycle with (4,1) commutators. Or for more of a hint, (4 moves 2-gen, slice move)!

Well now I feel dumb. I've solved a few of these and I have a decent grasp of the basics but I don't fully understand all of the terminology you guys use. I know what an algorithm is in the mathematical sense and I've always called memorized move sequences "algorithms". I "commutator" have taken to mean something like:

1) Do some short sequence you know
2) Do a move or two
3) Undo the first short sequence

I don't know if this is what you guys mean by commutator though. I certainly don't know what (4,1) would mean. Maybe do 4 moves, do 1 move, undo first 4 moves?

Also, I didn't realize you could do slice moves on 1.1.4 and 1.1.5. Those are some thick slices.

I have been reading to try to avoid asking stupid questions like this but so far I haven't understood the specific meaning of this terminology.

I'm at 39 solved and I'm getting closer to getting stuck. If I don't figure out the basic solution building blocks you guys apply to puzzles to find sequences I'll never solve more than 50. I just solved 2.2.14 (Master Icosahedron) which visually dwarfs 1.1.4/5 but figuring that thing out was rather easy in comparison.

Elwyn wrote:
Do you want hints or just a pure alg?

I could probably reverse-engineer a pure alg but I'd prefer to understand how to construct one. It was easy to construct a center three-cycle that also moves triangle pieces (trivial) but I'm missing some level of understanding on how to create non-trivial sequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:45 am 
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Then perhaps i'm not the most qualified to answer because i myself have only solved 64 puzzles and most of them have either been easy or i have had some kind of help with, though i have recently started getting better at solving them with my own methods. I can help you out with some terminology though. I'm pretty sure commutators are prettymuch algorithms but less specific, as in they often requier set up moves and they alwase consist of the "do somethhing to isolate a piece move that piece undo the first bit then undo the seccond bit".
bmenrigh wrote:
I certainly don't know what (4,1) would mean. Maybe do 4 moves, do 1 move, undo first 4 moves?

You guessed it! Although you'd also have to undo the 1 move aswell.
bmenrigh wrote:
I'm at 39 solved and I'm getting closer to getting stuck. If I don't figure out the basic solution building blocks you guys apply to puzzles to find sequences I'll never solve more than 50.

generaly the more puzzles you solve the better you get at figuring things out so you might not get stuck at all. What i mean is once you figure out 1.1.4 you will easely be able to do 1.1.5 and knowing how to do these will help you do not only with more face turning dodechedrons but you will also fiind that the corner tuning icosahedrons (like 2.2.3 and 2.2.4) relate very closely to them. What i'm getting at is for me figuring out algorithms is often a case of taking ones you know I.E. the OLL alg R U R' U R U2' R' (commenly known as sune) from the 3x3x3 and applying them seeing what they do and then trying to modify them, say by using them in a comutator, so that they work for a different puzzle. Infact there is a (7,1) comutator that is a pure three cycle for the triangles you are trying to do that is just sune, slice, anti-sune, undo slice. :) (the slice needed is the one imbetween the U and D faces)

But as i said i'm new to twisty puzzles (i only got my first 3x3x3 about ummmm... 9 months ago i think) so someone like Julian or Michael (qqwref) would probably give you a better answer

P.S. I use Julian's notation for dodecahedrons.
Attachment:
notation.jpg
notation.jpg [ 8.85 KiB | Viewed 4000 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Thanks for your reply. Personally, I think 64 puzzles is quite impressive. Especially for getting a 3x3x3 less than a year ago. I got a 3x3x3 in 2002 but didn't branch out to other puzzles (4x4x4, Megaminx, etc) until 6 months ago.

I generally try Sune and other simple sequences but I guess I wasn't being persistent enough on 1.1.4 because every way I tried Sune made a mess. I didn't realize you could do slice moves on 1.1.4 though. I guess I also wasn't setting up my commutators correctly. I generally would do something horribly inefficient like:

Sune -> move -> (Sune)xN -> 'move

That generally meant I was doing like 30-40 moves, most in the xN phase waiting for Sune or whatever sequence I was doing to cycle. The other thing I would try would be to do Sune "left-handed". That is, R U R' U R U2' R' turns into L' U' L U' L' U2 L. I don't have a good feeling for when I should do a routine right and then left handed versus right and then anti-right. I suppose I should try everything.

With your description of how to cycle centers I was able to solve 1.1.4 Those centers are pretty ugly though and I was having to do ~3 setup moves per cycle to place them. I generally consider 3 setup moves my limit and I generally try to stick to just 1 or 2, even if it means I have to repeat some commutator a few times. For 1.1.4 the last 3-cycle required 6 setup moves.

I'm definitely getting better with each puzzle I solve but I worry the difficulty of the puzzles in increasing faster than my skill+knowledge.

I need to knock out 1.1.5 now and then try my hand at 1.1.6.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:38 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I generally try Sune and other simple sequences but I guess I wasn't being persistent enough on 1.1.4 because every way I tried Sune made a mess. I didn't realize you could do slice moves on 1.1.4 though. I guess I also wasn't setting up my commutators correctly. I generally would do something horribly inefficient like:

Sune -> move -> (Sune)xN -> 'move

I was doing sune moves for 1.1.4 too (before I found a faster commutator) but doing it like this is silly.

The structure of a commutator is: X Y X' Y'. Here X and Y are move sequences ("sune" and "move") and ' means inverse. So when you make a commutator out of a sune and a move (which is what you're doing here), you have to invert the sune too. The way you are doing it is unnecessarily wasting moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:34 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
With your description of how to cycle centers I was able to solve 1.1.4 Those centers are pretty ugly though and I was having to do ~3 setup moves per cycle to place them. I generally consider 3 setup moves my limit and I generally try to stick to just 1 or 2, even if it means I have to repeat some commutator a few times. For 1.1.4 the last 3-cycle required 6 setup moves.

3 setup moves is pretty good. On that puzzle i have to do more than that sometimes but that is because i am usualy going for fewest moves so i am trying to solve the triangles two or three at a time. A great way to reduce your setup moves though is to mess around with the comutator that you are using. This is where sometimes doing it left handed can help but not like you were doing it before hahaha. Doing it like leftsune, slice, leftsune', slice' will change the positions of the pieces are cycled and you could be able toget the piece you want to move into those positions with less moves. Another good trick is doing it backwards I.E. changing it to a (1,7) comutator. this reverses the direction they are cycled and you could yet agian save setup moves Orr even instead of doing a u for the slice move do a u' or a u2 and you will find sometimes you might even need 0 setup moves :D .
Before you try 1.1.6 i would try and get below 1000 moves on 1.1.4 because i find by the time you can do a puzzle and come about 5th (on the ones with lots of solvers that number is higher) in fewest moves you end up understanding the puzzle allot more and that will help you with similar puzzles and prevent you getting stuck.
bmenrigh wrote:
I'm definitely getting better with each puzzle I solve but I worry the difficulty of the puzzles in increasing faster than my skill+knowledge.

Hahaha if you feel like that go and do some 5.1.X. Use reduction to a HM pyramid puzzles and it's like doing half a 5x5x5. Once you've done about 5 they start to be rediculously repetitive. Although they do have an annoying center parity that when i see it i hit scramble :roll: .

P.S As help for getting a better move count on 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 if you want it there is a more efficient 3 cycle below in white.

R2 L2' R2' L2, Slice, L2' R2 L2 R2', Slice'

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:57 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
I generally would do something horribly inefficient like:

Sune -> move -> (Sune)xN -> 'move

I was doing sune moves for 1.1.4 too (before I found a faster commutator) but doing it like this is silly.

I agree that is seems silly now. I got into that bad habit while solving physical puzzles that don't have an "undo" button. If I needed to apply some sequence that I didn't have memorized backwards, I'd just apply it forwards a few times to achieve the same effect. Since I can undo when I mess up and even just reset the puzzle to a solved state to practice I'm getting quite a bit better at not doing stupid things like the same sequence several times in a row.

Also, with physical puzzles I would always limit myself to 2-3 setup moves so that I could always reverse them after I did a sequence. Now that I have the undo "safety net" I'm feeling a lot more confident about doing ~6 setup moves before a sequence. I'm also finding that reversing those setup moves is rather easier than I thought it would be.

I just solved 2.2.15 and I'm very pleased with the center triangle three-cycle I came up with. It had 2-3 setup moves and then 2-3 free-form moves in the middle depending on the setup moves before finishing the sequence and then undoing the free-form and setup-moves. I would have never tried anything like this on a physical puzzle and it turned out to be easy on 2.2.15.

Finally, I'm surprised how easy it is to see the dodecahedron duel inside of a icosahedron since I can't really see the cube "inside" of a octahedron.

Thanks for you help so far, I really appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:16 am 
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Elwyn, thanks for your comments and help. I can certainly see how working towards a low move count could really further understanding of a puzzle. I continue to be amazed at how few moves you and Michael and a few others use. I think another way to further your understanding on a puzzle is to solve it in a different way. That is, solve say, centers-out.

For 1.1.4, the Sune Slice 'Sune 'Slice that I used cycled three pieces clockwise across L F and DL. I also used it left-handed which cycled three pieces counter-clockwise on R F DR. When I needed to go counter-clockwise on L F and DL or clockwise on R F DR though I just applied the sequence twice. I know this is terrible... I'm working on breaking the habit.

Thanks for the other sequence for 1.1.4/5. I'll go play with that to see how it works.

Regarding 5.1.x, I did 1, 2, and 3 but I haven't tried the others. I'm actually pretty bad at the smaller puzzles. The puzzle doesn't seem to have enough "room" for me to move around. Every move has too many side-effects. Fore example, I tried solving the Super-X and the Helicopter cube but those puzzles seem to "dense". Every piece moved necessarily pushes out some other important piece. With the Dodecahedra and Icosahedra there is so much working space that I don't have the same problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:29 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I think another way to further your understanding on a puzzle is to solve it in a different way. That is, solve say, centers-out.


Funny you should mention that. Ever since i solved 2.2.5 i have been meaning to do a solve of 1.1.5 in the order centers, triangels then edges or even 1.1.6 in the order All pentultimate pieces then trapezoids then edges. If i do it soon i'll post how it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:37 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
P.S As help for getting a better move count on 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 if you want it there is a more efficient 3 cycle below in white.

R2 L2' R2' L2, Slice, L2' R2 L2 R2', Slice'

Ahh I see how this works. I tried nearly the exact same thing. This borrows from the Pyraminx Crystal edge three-cycle. The 30-move 3-pair-cycle I posted in a screenshot of above was made from the Pyraminx Crystal 3-cycle too. The difference is that I didn't think of doing 2-turns per move and so the tips of the Pyraminx crystal edges that got moved were touching each other and jumbled. That's why it was 30 moves, I had to undo those side-effects.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:59 am 
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Has anybody found a good way to solve the tetrahedral puzzles from the point where they have 3 centers swapped? I know people have asked before but I don't recall any way aside from starting again. I could finish so many of the 5.1.x if only I knew how to do this!

-Mark- :P

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:27 am 
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Door wrote:
Has anybody found a good way to solve the tetrahedral puzzles from the point where they have 3 centers swapped?


For the Halpern-Meier Pyramid I just solved as though the centers were fixed. I hadn't tried any larger 5.1.x puzzles so I just gave 5.1.4 (Master Pyraminx) and I ran into three centers swapped just as you said. Good news is, the solution is very simple.

I don't know any notation for the Tetrahedrons so I'll take a few screenshots to get me started:

You have this:
Attachment:
pyracenters_small.png
pyracenters_small.png [ 5.01 KiB | Viewed 3907 times ]


To do this, you turn the point facing towards you (close point) and its slice:
Attachment:
pyracenters_small2.png
pyracenters_small2.png [ 4.94 KiB | Viewed 3907 times ]

I'll call this: F f

Then you turn the top point's slice:
Attachment:
pyracenters_small3.png
pyracenters_small3.png [ 5.03 KiB | Viewed 3907 times ]

I'll call this: u

Then you turn the close point and slice back:
Attachment:
pyracenters_small4.png
pyracenters_small4.png [ 4.96 KiB | Viewed 3907 times ]

I'll call that: 'F 'f

Using this notation, to rotate three centers, do:
((F f) u ('F 'f) u) x 2

Gelatin Brain notation for this is:
/*000000*/DAB,
/*000001*/DAB&2,
/*000002*/CBA&2,
/*000003*/DAB',
/*000004*/DAB'&2,
/*000005*/CBA&2,
/*000006*/DAB,
/*000007*/DAB&2,
/*000008*/CBA&2,
/*000009*/DAB',
/*000010*/DAB'&2,
/*000011*/CBA&2,


Sorry for such a verbose/imagey post but I hope it helps.

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:27 am 
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That's a very nice alg however it can only be used for 5 puzzles 5.1.4 5.1.10-5.1.12 and 5.1.16 the rest it either twists one corner aswelll or doesn't twist the full centers. I still think it is very usefull though but it happens to only work on puzzles i have already solved through perseveering and not getting the center parity hahaha.
also
/*000000*/D,
/*000001*/DCA&2,
/*000002*/D',
/*000003*/DBC&2,
/*000004*/D,
/*000005*/DCA&2,
/*000006*/D',
/*000007*/BCD&2,

this does the same thing but in 8 moves not 12 (it's the same alg with a little bit of fewest moves trickery added)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:43 am 
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Yeah I see what you mean about it not being so pure on some of the other puzzles. I just solved 5.1.5 as it worked nicely as a 3-cycle. I also just solved 5.1.6 with it although it was a bit messy so I had to use several setup moves to make it come out nicely. The corner twist was annoying so I had to cycle around again setting everything up so that all the centers would solve at the same time the corner twisted into place. I'm too tired to poke at 5.1.7 right now but it looks like the same trickery from 5.1.6 should apply.

Edit: it worked on 5.1.7 with basic setup moves. I can't do anything useful on 5.1.8 with it though yet.

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:07 am 
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gelatinbrain added some new circle cubes! I was solving 3.1.15 thinking "how is this different than 3.1.7?". Then I realized... :wink: So evil, I love it. Now I have to figure out how to solve this thing :D Thank you for programming such great puzzles!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:17 am 
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AAAARRRGGGHH. I was 90 moves into an icosa-pentultimate solve and had only 9 pentultimate (that don't need orienting) corners left and my computer froze :evil:

(edit) restarted my computer and ended up at 86 moves with 9 (pentultimate) corners left :lol: and finished at 154 moves 8-) and this fewest moves solve only took 14:26 hahaha.

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Last edited by Elwyn on Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:33 pm 
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150!

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:27 pm 
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170! :twisted: I'm sure you'll get there (and surpass me), Sjoerd - I've noticed a lot of macroed solves from you and schuma lately. Good job, guys :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:49 pm 
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I have spent several hours over the last few days turning 3.1.15 trying to figure out how the motion of the inner pieces can be described without much luck. By extension, 3.1.18 and 3.1.19 (and maybe .20) should behave basically the same way.

In some cases the wedge slices on the corner pieces in the circle behave like the sides of invisible inner 3x3x3 edge pieces. Also, in some cases the "D" pieces in the circle on the edge pieces behave like the sides/super sticker pieces of the center pieces.

By using a series of various standard 3x3x3 algorithms I was able to swap just two adjacent inner virtual "edge pieces" which would suggest that whatever is in the center there is more than just a 3x3x3.

In some ways the "D" pieces feel like the + centers of a 5x5x5 but that their sticker is on the adjacent face and where you can't turn the second slice of any face. This would explain how the "D" could behave like super-centers but can still split apart from each other. Treating the "D" pieces in this way I have managed to solve all of them.

I'm still not sure how to handle the virtual-edge pieces, if they are even that. I could try to solve the whole shell of the cube around my solved D pieces but that seems like it will be fraught with trouble and very slow with a very high move count.

Advice?

Edit: on further inspection, the pieces in the ring on 3.1.16 and 17 also have this property and on 3.1.20 it is the pieces in the inner circle. Also, there are identical virtual edge pieces which could explain the above parity.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:34 am 
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I finaly got around to solving 1.1.23 and i must say i found it to be a very fun puzzle. How could it not be when i merges three great puzzles. Circle megaminx, pyraminx crystal and circle 2x2x2 (just how the hidden edges work is the same). I enjoyed it so much a gave it two solves and managed to come seccond in both time and fewest moves :D
I was also wondering if anyone knew where some of the other people that used to use gelatinbrain like Doug, Noah, Campbell and fusion are. Have they lost interest or are they just busy, say at uni or college?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:57 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
I finaly got around to solving 1.1.23 and i must say i found it to be a very fun puzzle. How could it not be when i merges three great puzzles. Circle megaminx, pyraminx crystal and circle 2x2x2 (just how the hidden edges work is the same).

Yeah I really liked it too. Michael told me how the circle 2x2x2 edges worked and when I solved the circle 2x2x2 I thought I would have never figured it out myself. I guess I was being impatient though because when I solved 1.1.22 (circle megaminx) the edges became obvious. I would have been able to solve the 2x2x2 immediately after it.

When I solved 1.1.23 I was ready for a real nightmare finding and placing edges but it ended up being quite fun. I thought I'd be prepared to fly through 1.1.24 but that was not the case :( I also can't solve the circle FTO. Something about having all those same-shaped triangle wedges in the circle really throws me off. I have some ideas though :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:04 am 
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I havn't even figured out the normal FTO yet :roll: but i think i will leave that untill i have a real one which sadly could be a long time. If only i had more money to spend on puzzles hahaha.
I tried to solve 1.1.6 using my 2.2.5 solution. I got to the last step and decided it wasn't worth it. not because i thought it couldn't beat my privious solve for fewest moves but because i got confused with my pure pyraminx crystal edge cycle. I'm just not used to it. For some reason i just find it so much more difficult than the normal edges, centers, trapezoids, corners, method.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:34 am 
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I just solved 3.1.19! I had to think my way through every step of the way. Surprisingly I think this is the most challenging puzzle I've solved yet. I think the technique will apply to a few of the other new circle cubes but I still don't see how to apply anything to 3.1.15. I guess I've got my work cut out for me...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Thanks to the macro (algorithm) feature, I have surpassed qqwref in the number of solved puzzles, at least temporarily: 172 vs 171. Since gelatinbrain keeps updating new puzzles and many people are actively solving them, I am not sure how long I will stay in the number 1 position.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:59 pm 
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Go check out the new circle dodecahedra!

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Trying to get a handle on these circle cubes. What to do about this:

Image

Any ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:12 pm 
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merlintocs wrote:
Trying to get a handle on these circle cubes. What to do about this:

Image

Any ideas?


Those "D shaped" pieces are attached to the yellow center showing its orientation. If you rotate the orientation of the yellow center 180 degrees you'll be solved. Almost all the circle-polyhedra are "super" in that you can see the orientations of the centers.

The most popular technique for doing a 180 is probably (U (R L U2 'R 'L)) x 2

Welcome to the joy of circle cubes :D

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:24 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
merlintocs wrote:
Trying to get a handle on these circle cubes. What to do about this:

Image

Any ideas?


Those "D shaped" pieces are attached to the yellow center showing it's orientation. If you rotate the orientation of the yellow center 180 degrees you'll be solved. Almost all the circle-polyhedra are "super" in that you can see the orientations of the centers.

The most popular technique for doing a 180 is probably (U (R L U2 'R 'L)) x 2

Welcome to the joy of circle cubes :D


Wow, I must be slipping. That never even occurred to me. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:16 pm 
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I was solving the new circle-starminx, with my own long algorithms, and the inevitable finally happened: 1:07 into the solve I ran out of moves... 9999 is the most moves possible, when that number is reached turning becomes impossible. I can definately solve it, but I need more moves! Gah!

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43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:17 pm 
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The new circle-minxes are awesome. But I think there is a bug about the corner pieces in 1.1.27 and 1.1.28. The color of one side of the corner piece will change during a turn... see the picture. I'm not sure if it's a feature or a bug.


Attachments:
File comment: before and after a turn
turn.PNG
turn.PNG [ 28.96 KiB | Viewed 3435 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:27 pm 
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There are three hidden circle cubes 3.1.21, 3.1.22, 3.1.23 that cannot be found in the index page. But one can play them from the File menu from any other puzzles. tricky

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:01 pm 
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schuma wrote:
The new circle-minxes are awesome. But I think there is a bug about the corner pieces in 1.1.27 and 1.1.28. The color of one side of the corner piece will change during a turn... see the picture. I'm not sure if it's a feature or a bug.

I just had a look and i don't get it so perhaps gelatinbrain has already fixed it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:34 am 
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schuma wrote:
There are three hidden circle cubes 3.1.21, 3.1.22, 3.1.23 that cannot be found in the index page. But one can play them from the File menu from any other puzzles. tricky


Please explain it in better detail because I'm confused and I'd love to play with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:57 am 
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schuma wrote:
The new circle-minxes are awesome. But I think there is a bug about the corner pieces in 1.1.27 and 1.1.28. The color of one side of the corner piece will change during a turn... see the picture. I'm not sure if it's a feature or a bug.
I saw the same thing last night, and I thought, "Definitely a bug!" Gelatinbrain has fixed it now.

1.1.27 = solve like 1.1.6 then solve the circle pieces pure at the end (or possibly the "circle-bitten" trapezoids at the end, if your method of solving the 1.1.6 gives you a choice to focus on).

I've found commutated commutators to solve either piece pure. ((6,1), 1) or more simply written (14,1), taking 30 moves to solve 3 pieces pure. Of the (6,1), the 6 are regular turns of 3 adjacent faces, and the 1 is a slice move. I'm sure there are shorter algos to be found though.

I look forward to solving to some of these new puzzles in March, when work gets less crazy.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Elwyn: Clever hybrid solution and great movecount for 2.2.5!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:33 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Those "D shaped" pieces are attached to the yellow center showing its orientation. If you rotate the orientation of the yellow center 180 degrees you'll be solved. Almost all the circle-polyhedra are "super" in that you can see the orientations of the centers.

This single piece of information let me solve the circle 3x3x3 on my first attempt! Thanks! :D

I think that I might have got 4th or 5th place (by time) on my first go! :D

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:38 pm 
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I inverted my algos for the circle pieces on the circle-starminx, so I can just do a counter-clockwise 3-cycle instead of two clockwise ones. This way I got 1.1.25, 1.1.26 and 1.1.27 done. The bug is gone on 1.1.27.

And btw: SCHUMA, YOU ROCK! I have done quite a lot of puzzles these few weeks, but you... You just started solving like 2 months ago!

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


Last edited by Sjoerd on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:09 pm 
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I just solved 3.1.17 in 00:33:36 to beat schuma and get my first fastest time :P. 694 moves though, 3 more than schuma :?. Quick, Michael, solve it to beat my record and restore balance to the universe!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:36 am 
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Sjoerd wrote:
And btw: SCHUMA, YOU ROCK! I have done quite a lot of puzzles these few weeks, but you... You just started solving like 2 months ago!


Thank you. Things changed when gelatin brain expanded the ranking from top 10 to top 20. At that time I found myself in the 11th place. So I saw hope and started caring about the number...

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:00 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I just solved 3.1.17 in 00:33:36 to beat schuma and get my first fastest time :P. 694 moves though, 3 more than schuma :?. Quick, Michael, solve it to beat my record and restore balance to the universe!

Haha, okay, if you insist :P I took roughly half the time and half the movecount. Dealing with invisible corner-centers is annoying :(

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:07 am 
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Julian wrote:
I look forward to solving to some of these new puzzles in March, when work gets less crazy.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Elwyn: Clever hybrid solution and great movecount for 2.2.5!


That'd be right, just when this semester of university starts. I supose i can expect to come back and find all of my fewest move reccords gone hahaha. You've alredy beaten my super pentultimat one and gotten so close to my Icosimate solve and i have to admit that that was a pretty lucky solve.
Using your hints, which almost went beyond hints but i'm not complaining hahaha, i figured out your 30 move cycle for the "circle bitten" trapezoids however (and this could just be impatience and i'll edit this if i find it) i can't find a good Impure, short (or pure for that matter) cycle for the circle pieces..... am i missing something obvious?

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