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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:49 pm 
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Julian wrote:
But a soon as I saw that I'd knocked you off the least moves ranking board completely, I felt a bit sheepish. :oops:
Hahaha don't feel bad. i was more annoyed by Michael beating my other 4 reccords of which 7x7x7 and 5.1.5 were both only by 1 move :x

Also since the algorithm function has been put in i have been getting a verry anoying white flash across the puzzle every time i make any move. It is almost like the applet is refreshing it'self every move. Is this happening to anyone else?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Also since the algorithm function has been put in i have been getting a verry anoying white flash across the puzzle every time i make any move. It is almost like the applet is refreshing it'self every move. Is this happening to anyone else?


I haven't seen the white flash. But the puzzle is definitely refreshing every time you drag the puzzle to rotate it. This causes a significant freezing if many steps have been made. Try to apply the algorithm like [U, R, D, L]x1260, which gets the Rubik's cube back to the initial position in 5040 steps. After this, when I drag the cube, the cube freezes for a couple of seconds with cpu running 100%. I've seen this phenomenon on Firefox under Windows XP and Safari under Mac OS X. I guess the applet is reloading the record of all steps that have been made.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:00 pm 
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Woot! The stats chart changed from top 10 to top 20 in puzzles solved, and that puts me on the charts. Now i wont have to stay up countless hours trying to figure out more puzzles that i cant solve yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:21 am 
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I noticed that my Pentultimate solve using macros was colored differently on the high score list, although the time wasn't modified and it was ranked first. There doesn't seem to be any penalty for using macros at the moment.

I just did a 4:56 Pentultimate solve with no macros. Will this replace my normal solve? I'm not sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:29 pm 
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I have to admit - I am completely baffled by circle cubes. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:25 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
I noticed that my Pentultimate solve using macros was colored differently on the high score list, although the time wasn't modified and it was ranked first. There doesn't seem to be any penalty for using macros at the moment.

I just did a 4:56 Pentultimate solve with no macros. Will this replace my normal solve? I'm not sure.

It's difficult to estimate a fair amount of penalty. So, as a temporary mesure, I implemented a penalty of 1 sec per move(one primitive move and not a macro). For example, for a statement of "[a,b,c]x1000", a penalty of 3000 seconds is charged. The rate can be modified. On the scoreboard, a time with macros is shown with different bg color followed by penalty amount.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:45 pm 
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Alrright Julian i've set you a chalange. It hasn't come up on the score board yet but i got a pentultimate solve of 161 moves 8-) i was up to the last 15 corners in 26 moves and was VERY carefull with my 3 cycles sometimes purposly only solving one corner so that i was left with a perfect 3 cycle to finish not a 2-2 swap. Ialso gave the super pentultimate a seccond solve but i only beat my first solve by a few moves. I think with allot of luck a sub 150 pentultimate solve is possible.

On another note the anoying white flash i was getting is gone and i'm now thinking it was my computer struggleing with the 40 degree celsius heat and not a problem with the site which is good.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:24 pm 
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ive been fighting with the last couple of corners on this corner turning dodecahedron, and im starting to pull my hair out! Âżhas anyone figure out a way to finish this thing off?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:49 pm 
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boublez wrote:
ive been fighting with the last couple of corners on this corner turning dodecahedron [1.2.2], and im starting to pull my hair out! Âżhas anyone figure out a way to finish this thing off?
1. Finish the edges with (1,1) commutators (adjacent corners back and forth).
2. Finish the triangles with (1,1) commutators (non-adjacent corners back and forth).
3. Finish the corners using a (3,1) commutator (all non-adjacent corners) and setups. You can choose whether to orient the corners at the same time (trickier but more effecient) or to just permute them then orient them in pairs pure using a (5,1) commutator.
4. If you end up with a single twisted corner :roll: the simplest way to finish the solve is to twist the corner into its correct position, then repeat steps 1-3.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:57 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Alrright Julian i've set you a chalange. It hasn't come up on the score board yet but i got a pentultimate solve of 161 moves 8-) i was up to the last 15 corners in 26 moves and was VERY carefull with my 3 cycles sometimes purposly only solving one corner so that i was left with a perfect 3 cycle to finish not a 2-2 swap. Ialso gave the super pentultimate a seccond solve but i only beat my first solve by a few moves. I think with allot of luck a sub 150 pentultimate solve is possible.
Challenge accepted! :)

1st attempt, 178, which was showing a short while ago.

2nd attempt, 171, which is showing right now.

3rd attempt...
7 corners left at 100...
5 corners left at 120...
3 corners left at 141...
Solved at... 162 :lol:

So your record is safe (for tonight, anyway).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:31 am 
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I had another look at your method (back on page 24) and it made me think i should learn some more algs. I do the exact same steps as you however i mostly only use 2 algorithms. I use R U R' U R U2 R' D (or D' or D2 and so on) R U2 R' U' R U' R' D' (16 moves) for the corners and sometimes i have to use ALLOT of setup moves. For centers i use just R' L R L' but sometimes if i get a three cycle i refer to your center algs. So i'd say i'm doing pretty well for only having 2 main algs 8-) . I also got within 5 moves of your super pentultimate solve which i'm quite happy with(for center orientation i rely compleetly on your algs. Thank you very much for those).
I was also wondering if you had any hints when it comes to how you got your starminx solve so low because i suppose it is to me kind of like what the pentultimate is to you I.E the first hard puzzle i solved on gelatinbrain. No matter how hard i try my best solve is still 100 moves more than yours and i don't even want to think about how Matt Galla got 414 :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:34 pm 
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starminx II!(without the jumbling)


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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )
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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:34 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
I had another look at your method (back on page 24) and it made me think i should learn some more algs. I do the exact same steps as you however i mostly only use 2 algorithms. I use R U R' U R U2 R' D (or D' or D2 and so on) R U2 R' U' R U' R' D' (16 moves) for the corners and sometimes i have to use ALLOT of setup moves. For centers i use just R' L R L' but sometimes if i get a three cycle i refer to your center algs. So i'd say i'm doing pretty well for only having 2 main algs 8-) .
Yes, you're doing very well! I used the same commutator as you up until last May. It's funny how Rubik's Cube algos are useful with the Pentultimate. Sune swaps a corner in half of the Pentultimate in 7 moves. FURU'R'F' does the same thing but one move quicker. If you try to optimize setups you'll definitely save moves. Also you'll sometimes find that you can set up the 3rd corner of a cycle 2 different ways in 2 moves, but one gives a "good" orientation (cycle in 17-18 moves), while the other gives a "bad" orientation (cycle in 21-22 moves).

I did a solve of 158 moves tonight. I've been experimenting with a variation of my usual method. After solving 6 centers and 5 corners, I then use dirty algos of 6-7 moves to place some of the next group of 5 corners individually, to finish as much of half of the puzzle as possible before permuting the last 6 centers. These algos only work where the corner is not adjacent to where it needs to go. It costs 6 moves to push an adjacent corner to a non-adjacent position, which is a bit expensive so I just solve the non-adjacent corners. None of my center-swapping algos affects more than 2 of these corners so it is usually possible to finish the centers as normal without messing up the extra solved corners. I've also found an alternative cycle of 3 final centers which only affects 1 corner of the other half, in 8 moves.

My idea is that solving individual corners in an average of just over 7 moves is narrowly beating the average corner cycling move count, and every saving helps. If we could solve all the centers and 10 corners in around 65 moves, we'd still need 1 other corner to be luckily solved to be able to solve the last 9 corners in 4 cycles to beat 150 moves. Maybe 1 time in 100?

Elwyn wrote:
I also got within 5 moves of your super pentultimate solve which i'm quite happy with(for center orientation i rely compleetly on your algs. Thank you very much for those).
You're welcome; I'm happy those algos have been helpful. :)

Elwyn wrote:
I was also wondering if you had any hints when it comes to how you got your starminx solve so low because i suppose it is to me kind of like what the pentultimate is to you I.E the first hard puzzle i solved on gelatinbrain. No matter how hard i try my best solve is still 100 moves more than yours and i don't even want to think about how Matt Galla got 414 :shock:
1.1.5 least move hints:

1. Edges. Place 5 around a face, then the next ring of 5, then a few more where easily done, then carefully minimized setups and (1,1) commutators to finish them 2-3 at a time, like finishing the Pyraminx Crystal.

2. Centers. Cycle with (3,1) commutators.

3. Triangles. Cycle with (4,1) commutators. Or for more of a hint, (4 moves 2-gen, slice move)! It was Noah who first posted this algo. (It can't be used for 1.1.25, but it's great for 1.1.4 - 1.1.6.) The key thing with the triangles is to solve them 3 at a time as much as possible. I try as many 3-cycles as possible involving a particular color, then move onto an adjacent color, until I can only solve pairs for a while. When solving the pairs I try to gradually finish adjacent colors, while also looking for any new 3-cycles that open up. Also it's usually possible to set up the triangles up with quite a short sequence of moves; I take my time and experiment during the solve.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Hahaha just yesterday i was trying to think of a good way to solve those next 5 corners before the last 6 centers.turns out you were thinking along the same lines and beat me to it aswell. I didn't spend too long looking for a way though. I had a look a FRUR'U'F' and it does seem like i could save around 12 moves a solve with it which is good.
As for 1.1.5 it seems we solve it with almost the EXACT sam method however i think you are allot more carefull when it comes to the pyraminx crystal edges as i mostly only solve them one at a time.
I also did a solve of 1.1.6 focusing almost entierly on speed (and got seccond place 8-) ) but i also beat my last fewest moves solve which took me around 3 hours of painstaking conentration in the same solve just because i've had so much pentultimate practice :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:08 am 
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A couple of months ago I solved all tace turning octahedra with 2, 3 and 4 layers, but I never got a good algorithm for some of the edge triangles, and had to do weird things on the 4 layer ones, but with the knowledge I had back then Icouldn't do the 5 layer ones.
Today, I decided to review the 5 layered FTO's, and came up with an algorithm :D So I immediately solved all 3 of these, and now have 122 puzzles solved, passing Campbell by 2 solved puzzles, which makes me 5th place.
But I'm sure, if Campbell, Noah, and other geniusses who are 'on a break' come back and see all the new puzzles, I would be passed easily again :wink:

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:17 am 
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3.4.8

Suggest solution method:

1) Permute the centers using a few Skewb moves.

2) Solve 4 corners around a face using 3x3x3 moves and check the orientation of the remaining 4 corners. If the corner orientation is an invalid 3x3x3 orientation, then pick a corner that needs to be twisted to fix the problem:
If FUR needs a clockwise twist, FUR ULF ULB RUB (or similar).
If FUR needs a counterclockwise twist, FUR' RUB' ULB' ULF'.

3) Solve like a 3x3x3 using face moves only, placing as many 2-color pieces correctly as possible along with the corners. It's theoretically possible to be very unlucky and only be able to place 8 edge pieces correctly, but usually 11+ can be solved as part of this stage.

4) Cycle the remaining 2-color pieces with non-pure (5,1) commutators.

5) Cycle the big triangles with pure (6,1) commutators.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:47 am 
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Julian wrote:
1. Finish the edges with (1,1) commutators (adjacent corners back and forth).
2. Finish the triangles with (1,1) commutators (non-adjacent corners back and forth).
3. Finish the corners using a (3,1) commutator (all non-adjacent corners) and setups. You can choose whether to orient the corners at the same time (trickier but more effecient) or to just permute them then orient them in pairs pure using a (5,1) commutator.
4. If you end up with a single twisted corner :roll: the simplest way to finish the solve is to twist the corner into its correct position, then repeat steps 1-3.


First off, thanks for the help. It got me a lot further, but now I've hit this bump in the solving road. I have just one corner turned. It seems that i want to just keep twisting back and forth.

i kind of understand what your saying to do but am just too afraid to stuff this all up.

edit: went for it and got it in just under 4 hours and under 2500 moves, thanks for the help again


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:24 pm 
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I finally went and solved 1.1.8, so I am up to 150 puzzles solved (the first person to do so, I believe). It took about 21 minutes.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:41 am 
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I just solved 1.3.1.
Attachment:
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time: 01:23:22, moves: 2335
Solution outline:
1. Put the centers in their correct spots, very easy.
2. Solve all corners with just face-turns, and hope you don´t wind up with one twisted corner, which will be the case 2/3 times you try. With my knowledge, I had to start over if one corner was twisted.
3. Find three-cycle that switches the thin triangle pieces and one that switched the wide triangle pieces, and apply it.

The three-cycle I came up with for the wide triangles is far from perfect. It is like a (18,1) commutator (not sure) and added a lot to my move count.

But still, I solved it!

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:24 pm 
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I have a question about the "puzzles solved" statistics. To solve a certain puzzle, if I'm not fast enough to be in the top 50 time ranking and not efficient enough to be in the top 50 fewest step ranking, will that puzzle be counted in the "puzzles solved" statistics? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:41 pm 
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schuma wrote:
I have a question about the "puzzles solved" statistics. To solve a certain puzzle, if I'm not fast enough to be in the top 50 time ranking and not efficient enough to be in the top 50 fewest step ranking, will that puzzle be counted in the "puzzles solved" statistics? Thanks.
"Yes" is the answer to your question. :) For example, the first time I solved the Gigaminx, even though both my time and move count were outside the top 50, my total solved count went up by one. (My second solve just squeezed me into both rankings, then I got pushed out of both again literally a few days later!)


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:58 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
I finally went and solved 1.1.8, so I am up to 150 puzzles solved (the first person to do so, I believe). It took about 21 minutes.
Congratulations! A full house awaits? Especially since Gelatinbrain added his algorithm feature.

In my case there are 12 reasons (all spherical in shape) why I doubt I'll be able to solve the whole lot. (@merltintocs: I feel the same way as you about the spheres. I make just 2 or 3 jumbling moves from the solved position and all my eyes and brain can see are chaos.)

1.1.4 in 473 moves :shock:
1.1.5 in 382 moves :shock:

Special congrats for those.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:47 pm 
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Julian wrote:
"Yes" is the answer to your question. :) For example, the first time I solved the Gigaminx, even though both my time and move count were outside the top 50, my total solved count went up by one. (My second solve just squeezed me into both rankings, then I got pushed out of both again literally a few days later!)


I'm happy to know this, coz now my gigaminx and dino cube are not ranked. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Julian wrote:
qqwref wrote:
I finally went and solved 1.1.8, so I am up to 150 puzzles solved (the first person to do so, I believe). It took about 21 minutes.
Congratulations! A full house awaits? Especially since Gelatinbrain added his algorithm feature.

In my case there are 12 reasons (all spherical in shape) why I doubt I'll be able to solve the whole lot. (@merltintocs: I feel the same way as you about the spheres. I make just 2 or 3 jumbling moves from the solved position and all my eyes and brain can see are chaos.)

Ah, I don't really want to use the algorithm feature. I don't really like the idea of only being able to solve a puzzle by having a bunch of 3-cycles written down - if I can't do it by just making turns, I don't deserve to have the puzzle solved at all :)

Julian wrote:
1.1.4 in 473 moves :shock:
1.1.5 in 382 moves :shock:

Special congrats for those.

Thanks. It was all due to an improvement on the pure triangular center comm I was using - the one I had been using in my first solves was a [7,1]. The 1.1.5 took me two tries, actually... first one was 416 moves, but I couldn't just let that stand, so I just had to spend another half hour and do it again :p


Oh, and I broke the 100 mark for fewest-moves records. Cool :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:44 pm 
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so i saw the resent post about 1.3.1 by Sjoerd and i just had to give this method a try. :roll: and now im really stuck. Âżany body wanna help?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:23 pm 
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boublez wrote:
so i saw the resent post about 1.3.1 by Sjoerd and i just had to give this method a try. :roll: and now im really stuck. Âżany body wanna help?
Here's a (7,1) commutator to solve the wide triangles pure:

EDK,C',ABC,AEF,ABC',C,EDK',
D',
EDK,C',ABC,AEF',ABC',C,EDK',
D

Image

Good luck! It's tricky solving the wide triangles at the end. It's much easier to solve in the order: corners, wide triangles, centers, thin triangles. If you feel like more of a challenge to save moves: wide triangles, corners, centers, thin triangles.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:00 am 
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I solved 1.1.19 in 23:19... beating Daniel Devitt's record by just over an hour :shock: I don't know about other people, but I find the "reduce to 3x3/megaminx" style puzzles relatively easy, so I'm confused why more people haven't done (and gotten good times on) puzzles like this, 1.3.1, 3.4.6, 3.4.7, etc.

Tips for pairing up edges on these types of puzzles (if edges come in 4 pieces and each slice moves two of them):
- The basic move is a three-cycle of center-wing groups, but if you use an edge-only 2-flip (mine is F U' R U R' U F' U') you can also do a 2-cycle of centers and a 2-cycle of wings.
- For most of the edge groups, you can pair each wing up with a center of a different color separately, and then pair those pairs together at the end.
- For the last two or three edges, observe that using the edge flip algorithm you can swap only two wings if you can just setup the centers to be the same color. So just move the centers around until the pairs of centers match the color pairs on the wings that are left, and then use this technique to solve the rest of the wings two at a time.
- If you ever get two edges swapped in the end, you can do u' [flip edge] u2 [flip edge] u'.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:15 am 
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Ok I´ll take on your challenge Michael :wink: I did 1.3.1 already, and now I´ll try 3.4.6

I figured out this pure 3-cycle for the wide triangles near the corners already:

DRB,U,F2,U',R',F2,R,B',R',F2,R,U,F2,U',B,
DRB',R',L,F2,L',U',F2,U,B2,U',F2,U,L,F2,L',B2,R

I know, it´s terribly long and adds a lot to your move count, but hey, it works :wink:

edit: that got me this far:
Attachment:
3.4.6.JPG
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I have no idea on how to do the triangles in the 3x3 edge pieces. Knowledge of a simple pure 3x3-edge cycle (that I don´t have) would help.

edit2:and also a master skewb center twisting or cycling algorithm :wink:

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43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:59 am 
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My 3-cycle on 1.3.1 for the wide triangles was:

AEF,C,B'2,C',A',B2,A,
D,A',B'2,A,C,B2,C',D',
AEF',B,I'2,B',F',I2,F,
A'2,F',I'2,F,B,I2,B',A2,

So julians is probably better :P

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:12 am 
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3.5.1 (2x2x2 + Little Chop)

1. The pieces are in two orbitals. Choose the "left-handed" or "right-handed" pieces to solve first, and make some intuitive moves to solve as many as possible.

2. Solve the remaining pieces in your chosen orbital using non-pure (8,1) cycles. Hint: Try to isolate a piece in a Little Chop half of the puzzle with a (3,1) commutator, not caring if one or two pieces from the other orbital stray into the same half.

3. Solve the pieces in the other orbital using pure (12,1) cycles. Hint: Try making a couple of face moves either side of a mirror image of the same (3,1) commutator you used in stage 2, to see if you can isolate a single piece in a Little Chop half of the puzzle without any pieces from the other orbital straying into the same half.

I took 362 moves using this method.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:49 pm 
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I used the algorithm bar a lot for this one. the actual moves I did myself were the 3x3x3 solution moves and setup moves.

Solution outline:

1. solve the centers with master skewb moves

2. solve like a 3x3x3, and hope you don´t wind up with one corner twisted. if you do start over :wink:

3. solve the wide triangles (which are part of the 3x3x3 corners) with a master-skewb-face-square-cycle-algorithm

4. solve the smaller squares, the ones closest to the centers. my algorithm was: R',U2,R',U',R',U',R2,U,R,U,R2,DLF,R2,U',R',U',R2,U,R,U,R,U2,R,DLF',

5. solve all righthanded smaller triangles (which are part of the 3x3x3 edges)
I used a 45-move algorithm for this :? :
LDB',UBR,LDB,UBR',BDR,FLU',BLD,RDF',BLD',RDF,DRB',UFL,R',U2,R',U',R',U',R2,U,R,U,R2,
BDR,UFL',RDF',BLD,RDF,BLD',DRB',UFL,RUB,DBL',RUB',DBL,R2,U',R',U',R2,U,R,U,R,U2,R,

6. solve all lefthanded ones. I used another 45-move algorithm for this:
DLF,RFU',DLF',RFU,BUL,FRD',FDL',RBD,FDL,RBD',ULB',DFR,R',U2,R',U',R',U',R2,U,R,U,R2,
BUL,FRD',RBD,FDL',RBD',FDL,DFR,ULB',RFU',DLF,RFU,DLF',R2,U',R',U',R2,U,R,U,R,U2,R,

As the very experienced puzzlers might have noticed, all of my algorithms for the puzzles that are a combination between 2 puzzles, are a combination of algorithms of both puzzles. Far from optimal, but they work.

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Crazy luck solving the Pentultimate (1.1.7)! I solved one half of the puzzle in 70 moves, which is nothing special. But, when I checked the other half:

* The other 6 centers were already solved
* 2 of the last 10 corners were already solved
* 3 of the other 8 corners were sitting in a perfect 3-cycle (including orientation)

I calculate the odds of all these happening at 1 in 1,944.

So I had 5 corners left to solve after 88 moves; 3 corners left after 106 moves; and finished at 123 moves. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:23 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
I used a 45-move algorithm for this :?
Yikes! Well done for solving 3.4.6 though. 3.4.x are a cool set of puzzles.

With 3.4.6, after the centers I solved the "main" corners and edges like a 3x3x3, then I cycled all the other pieces: big triangles (5,1), small triangles next to edges (5,1) and finally small triangles next to centers (6,1) pure.

But now after Michael's hints I want to try reduction sometime to improve my move count.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:25 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
I don't know about other people, but I find the "reduce to 3x3/megaminx" style puzzles relatively easy, so I'm confused why more people haven't done (and gotten good times on) puzzles like this, 1.3.1, 3.4.6, 3.4.7, etc.
Speaking for myself (and speculating for others), regional blockbuilding/buildup and cycling methods are a lot easier to cope with visually than reduction methods. When I'm solving a jigsaw I like to see more and more solid sky, and house, and field. It disturbs me to see a chunk of sky landing in the field and staying there for a while, with a bunch of grass stuck in the house. Even with puzzles where I feel I understand reduction pretty well, such as 4.1.2-4.1.4, I still have to go slowly and I feel a bit disoriented during the edge-pairing stage.

Also, without Doug or Campbell posting here to give reminders and the occasional tutorial on the virtues of reduction, I naturally gravitated back into my comfort zone! Thanks for the hints; once I've finished off 3.1.x I'll re-read your post and I'll try to put them into practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:33 pm 
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I feel like, where a normal solution method is about pairing everything up so it matches some kind of static part of the puzzle, reduction is all about pairing pieces up to each other to make blocks. In the middle of a reduction solve, the puzzle doesn't look close to solved in the sense that most of the pieces are where they're going to end up, but rather in the sense that a lot of piece groups are paired up so the puzzle feels very orderly. I find reduction methods easier, actually, because I basically see the puzzle in terms of the puzzle I'm reducing to (and this is way easier once you've got a few blocks set up). Then my goal is just to turn the disorganized blocks into organized ones. This is usually pretty easy (more [x,1] comms and less ridiculous long pure 3-cycles) but you have to be willing to move the blocks around freely in the reduced puzzle group. Basically, if you're using long algorithms for a reduction solve, you're probably doing something wrong.

So, in terms of a jigsaw, it's like putting together groups of pieces you can see into small blocks and then later putting those together, rather than just trying to build the entire puzzle in one block. Not an unreasonable strategy if putting blocks together can be done easily.

I guess I have a lot of practice with this approach from solving 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 for speed. Those use reduction too, and that might very well be the thing that makes me feel very comfortable with the idea. I've done very many (thousands) of solves of those puzzles over the years, and I don't expect anyone here to do the same, but getting more or less comfortable with reduction on one puzzle is a big step towards being comfortable with it on every puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:34 am 
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Hey All, this is my first post on this thread (and my first post on this forum!).

I am working my way through some of these great applets. I have solved 20 so far. My goal is 40. I suppose if I reach it I'll probably have a better idea for how to tackle the more complex ones and I'll update my goal :wink:

I solved all of the Circle Cubes (3.1.{7,9,10,11}) except the Circle 2x2x2 (3.1.8). Unlike the other circle cubes where some of the pieces in the circle are connected to each other to create 1 piece with 2 or 3 colors that aren't touching, it seems the circle centers of 3.1.8 are one-color pieces.

It seems the circle pieces correspond to the centers of a 4x4x4. Without the outer layers of a 4x4x4 though I have not been able to figure out how to solve the circle centers.

Am I on the right track here? Should I solve the outer 2x2x2 shell first and then solve the circle centers? In all of the other circle cubes I worked from the circle outward.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:00 am 
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The centers in the gelatinbrain Circle 2x2 come in pairs and each pair corresponds to an (invisible) 3x3 edge. Good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:25 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
The centers in the gelatinbrain Circle 2x2 come in pairs and each pair corresponds to an (invisible) 3x3 edge. Good luck.

That was the insight I need, thanks! I looked for pairing to see what pieces they may correspond to on a inner "virtual" cube but I didn't see that they were connected through the cube. From that I concluded that they were 1-color center pieces. They certainly didn't move like that though.

I still have a long way to go before I start to catch up to you!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Guys, go check out the new face+corner turning cubes, 3.4.11-3.4.20! GelatinBrain has uploaded 10 new puzzles! Thanks! This is great....

EDIT: I had a better look at all of them, and noticed all of them are combinations of 3x3x3+skewb of 3x3x3+master skewb. But still, all different, and all very hard :shock:

I did just solve 3.4.11, but as always, with a looooot of moves. But I need an algorithm: I know how to turn 2 skewb faces by 180° when they're opposite to each other, but does anyone know a way to do this to the centers of two adjectent faces? It would make these cubes a lot easier for me :wink:

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43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Wouldn't a one-move setup do the trick?

You sure did use a lot of moves for 3.4.11, haha. I still suggest reduction - I paired edges with [skewb move, [1,1] edge comm] and paired corners with [skewb move, [1,3] edge comm].

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:07 am 
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I use a partial reduction. My steps were:
1. get 3x3x3 centers correct with skewb moves
2. check if all corners are turned right(by solving all corners, and if I wind up with one of them twisted, I start over :P)
3. Pair up the tiny edge-wings
4. solve as 3x3x3
5. get the 3x3x3-edge-faces to match the edge wings
6. get the tiny triangles in 3x3x3-corners to match the rest of the corners

My moves count is so terrible, because I use a combination of 3x3x3 and skewb algorithms (mostly R',U2,R',U',R',U',R2,U,R,U,R2, for 3x3x3, and one skewb turn or an algorithm I use to twist the front and back skewb centers by 180°) and I use the algorithm bar to freely. So instead of taking the effort to copy and paste the reverse algorithm for a 3-cycle into the bar, I just do two of the original ones.

But I don´t care about move count of time, just amount of puzzles solved :wink:

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:48 pm 
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Wow! There are more circle cubes now! It's always exciting to see new puzzles. Thanks, gelatinbrain :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:11 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
Wow! There are more circle cubes now! It's always exciting to see new puzzles. Thanks, gelatinbrain :D
I'll second that! Thanks, gelatinbrain.

I guess the only family missing from the cubes now is vertex+edge hybrids. Picking one of Dino Cube 3.2.4, Master Skewb 3.2.2, or Skewb 3.2.1, and combining it with one of 3.3.1, 3.3.3, 3.3.5, or 3.3.7, that's 12 possible combinations as a start, and I assume that at least a few of those make good puzzles.

By the way, Michael, congratulations on reaching a new Gelatinbrain landmark:

1st in Fewest Moves

Michael Gottlieb . . . . . . . . 112
Rest of the world . . . . . . . 111

And of course this includes a few tied records not involving Michael, which boosts the world total.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:37 am 
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That's a lot of fewest moves records :p Are you sure it's the majority, though? There seem to be 234 puzzles.

By the way, according to my calculations, there are 47 nontrivial puzzles composed of a cube with one corner and one edge turn:
- 3 of type 3x3x3 + trivial corners
- 15 of type 3x3x3 + shallow dino
- 1 of type 2x2x2 + shallow dino
- 1 of type 3x3x3 + dino
- 1 of type 2x2x2 + dino
- 21 of type 3x3x3 + master skewb
- 1 of type 2x2x2 + master skewb
- 3 of type 3x3x3 + skewb
- 1 of type 2x2x2 + skewb
Gelatinbrain only has 17 of these, so there are many more possibilities yet :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:32 am 
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Yes! More circle cubes! I solved the new 4x4 variant, but in order to do the new 5x5's I really need to learn some 5x5 supercube algs... That ennoying last center!

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43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Yeah I love the circle cubes too. Thanks gelatinbrain!

Sjoerd wrote:
I really need to learn some 5x5 supercube algs... That ennoying last center!


My strategy is really slow and has a high move count but doesn't require anything special for larger super cubes. I use a simple three-cycle of centers on two adjacent faces. I first place + centers and then x centers. It may seem like you can get a "parity" in the + centers on the last two faces where only two centers need to be swapped. If you just turn one of the unsolved center faces a quarter turn and re-place centers the parity will be fixed.

Solving the "ring" cubes like 3.1.12 and 3.1.14 actually seem easier because there aren't any hidden stickers.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:56 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
That's a lot of fewest moves records :p Are you sure it's the majority, though? There seem to be 234 puzzles.
Not a majority, due to the as yet unsolved puzzles. But still impressive.

Especially 1098 moves for 2.1.1. Did you pair most of the edges and corners near the beginning? Because that's the only way I can think of to achieve such a move count. I toyed with the idea of F2L-style solving of the corners and edges but found it too hard so gave up.

After one failure, I managed to solve 3.4.11 using reduction. The first time I wasn't careful enough near the beginning and suddenly noticed the blue and green centers adjacent to each other after reducing all the edges! [facepalm] But the second time went well. I use conjugates with Skewb moves on the outside for the reduction: 9 move sequences to pair the arrow/2-color pieces, 11 moves to join the house shapes to the edges, and 13 moves to join triangles to corners. I hope to get under 400 moves the next time.

Work is very busy at the moment and I look forward to having the brain energy to get back to GB-ing again.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:39 pm 
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Hey guys, haven't checked in here in a while. Lots of new puzzles and features and it seems I've been blown out of the water by Michael and others. Seeing as I'm still trying to concentrate on school, I won't have much time for puzzles, but I'll try to find some time to fiddle with all the new ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:42 am 
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Well I gave the corner twisting puzzles a try. I was surprised how easy it was to get to the last layer. I'm not really sure where to go from here though:
Attachment:
gb1_2_1.png
gb1_2_1.png [ 30.04 KiB | Viewed 2894 times ]

I've tried a few simple things but I don't see how to make any more progress. I figure I'll use pyraminx-like moves...?

EDIT: I ended up solving this pretty easily. If you start with a solved cube there are some short (4 move) sequences to 3-cycle edges. Also, if you send an edge piece "around in a circle" along one face it will flip the edge piece orientation.

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:53 am 
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Alright Julian i admit that without a compleetly unreasonable amount of luck i can't beat that pentultimate reccord however after all that practice i'm sure those super pentultimate and even icosa-pentultimate reccords can be brought down lower :D
I have also been looking at 2.2.3-2.2.5 and i have no idea how to orient the centers without messing up the pyraminx crystal edges so any hints regarding that would be much apriciated.

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