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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:14 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia


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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

The 4.3.3 solve is very impressive. It's one that I've tried in the past and failed at. I just tried again and found a length28 alg on 3 edges that does 2 3cycles, which is a start... Anyways, I just wanted to point out that the thread title is about "Solution Discussion" and that it would be nice if you could at least outline what method you used, provide some algs, or give some hints on how to solve 4.3.3. Well... at least warn us of any possible parities. I like 4.3.3  all the pieces are uniform (all pieces of the same type and [seemingly] interchangable). There are only 24 pieces. That fact along with the way it turns, I bet it can be solved like the LittleChop. Perhaps a LittleChop method could be adopted for this. Anyhow, I realize that the single alg I made up just now, is sufficent for me to solve it so perhaps I should make an attempt. But I'm too lazy right now .
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:13 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

I will make the small instruction for 4.3.3 and 1.2.9
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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:05 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

The small help: OctaStar = LittleChop! It is necessary to paint on another LittleChop You easily can transform for this purpose all algorithms from LittleChop
Attachments: 
OctaStar = LittleChop.jpg [ 46.54 KiB  Viewed 5110 times ]

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Last edited by grigr on Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:18 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

I use this notation Attachment:
OctaStar  notation.jpg [ 34.26 KiB  Viewed 5699 times ]
u,l,r,d  Internal edges, U,L,R,D  External edges, x and y  rotation in begin 4 Key combinations: 1,2  28 step, 3. 42 step, 4. 18 step 1. (lUu)*9 l 2. (uldr)*7  (1=2) 3. (lUu)*14 4. (UlL)*6 also main algoritms: all 92 step 1. (UlL)*6 + (uldr)*7 + (LlU)*6 + (rdlu)*7  22 change 2. x + (UlL)*6 + y + (uldr)*7 + y' + (LlU)*6 + y + (rdlu)*7 + y'x'  3Cycle 3. y' + (UlL)*6 + y + (rdlu)*7 + y' + (LlU)*6 + y + (uldr)*7  other 3Cycle also NO parities good luck
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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

grigr wrote: The small help: OctaStar = LittleChop! For example: very good main 3cycle from AndrewG site  32 step ( (lDlU)*2 (lRlL)*2 )*2
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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:10 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

HalfMinx (1.2.9) Small Guide I use this notation: u,l,r,d,U,L,R,D,_u,_l,_r,_d,_L,_R,_D  for diferent corner rotation, I not use puzzle rotation. 12 centre (a), 60 small triangles (b), 20 corner (c) 1 step  Ordering Corner (c) 1.1 (rL'r'L)*3  (12) 2x2swap (c,b) 1.2 (1.1) R (1.1) R'  (26) 2 corner rotation (c,b) 1.3 (RL'R'L)*4  (16) 4 corner rotation (c,b) 1.4 _L'l'(_L'_D_L_D')*3 l_L  (16) 2x2swap (c,b) 1.5 (1.4) D' (1.4) D  (34) 3cycle (c,b) 1.6 Rd' r'RrR' dud'u'  (10) 2 corner rotation (c,b) 2 step  Ordering Center (a) 2.0 (RL'R'L)*21  (84) 2x2swap (a) 2.1 (RL'R'L)*3  (12) 2x2swap (a,b) 2.2 (2.1) _R' (2.1) _R  (26) 3cycle (a,b) 2.3 (2.1) d' (2.1) d  (26) 3cycle (a,b) 3 step  Ordering small Triangles (b) 3.0 ( (RL'R'L)*12 _R (L'RLR')*12 _R' ) _L' ( _R (RL'R'L)*12 _R' (L'RLR')*12 ) _L  (200) my first 3cycle (b) (A) = (_R_l'_R'_l)*3 3.1 _l' (A) L' (A) Ld'L' (A) L (A) d_l  (56) one 3cycle (b) (B) = (R'l _rR'_r'R l'D'lD) 3.2 Lu (B) _D' (B') _Du'L'  (26) two 3cycle (b) 3.2 D'u (B) _D' (B') _Du'D  (26) three 3cycle (b) 3.2 D'_DLu (B) _D' (B') _Du'L'_D'D  (30) four 3cycle (b) also 1 variant paritet  one not orient Corner If at first to begin 2 step, and then 1 step, Then probability of 66 %, that you will come to it good luck Evgeny
Attachments: 
HalfMinx  Notation.jpg [ 75.86 KiB  Viewed 5110 times ]

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Last edited by grigr on Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:16 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Well, there sure is a great deal of information from grigr, and I know it'll take a while for me to get through all that. Now for a solution outline from me! I just finished solving 1.1.13 (dodeca_f17). First, I will start with who I actually solved it (feel free to skip on to how I recommend solving it). 1. Solve all the 3color center pieces. (It's just like solving 1.1.12/Impossiball.) 2. I then solved the 1color corner pieces, but only to visualize things better... these get messed up latter on anyways. 3. Solve the 2sticker edge pieces. I mostly used commutators and then realized it's just like solving edges on a Pyraminx Crystal. 4. Resolve 1color corners. 5. Solve the pentagonal centers using 22swaps. 6. Used a commutator alg to solve the thintriangles (which occur on the edge of pentagonal faces). I used a length 12 alg (but the applet counts it as length 13). It is the standard idea from solving analogous pieces on stuff like 2.2.3, 1.1.4, and the like. The alg was of the form PQP'Q', P=(X Y' X' Y) where X and Y are 2/5turns of nonadj faces, Q is a slice turn like (U D'). Due to the way the applet counts turns and that I dropped the final outerfaceturn, I used 3 turns for Q and 2 turns for the Q' part. 7. Realize that there are both thintriangles and fattriangles, and the two are not interchangeable.... DUH! (Refer to above image of deadend.) 8. Solve the fattriangles using ideas from 1.1.10 reductionmethod's centergrouping step. Preserve 1color corners and mess up the thintriangles. And it will naturally maintain pentagonal centers. 9. Repeat step 6  which will take another halfhour. 10. Cry  let it out, it was healthy after 4 hours of torturing myself... Recommended Solution: 1. Solve the 3color centers and 2color edges using whatever Pyraminx Crystal method of your choosing. EDIT: You can hold down shift for this entire step 1. 2. Solve the pentagonal centers using whatever method. But I use the simple length12, 22swap because it comes naturally for me. Probably not the most efficient, but this step needs further study. 3. Solve the pentagonal faces/layers using 1.1.10 centergrouping concepts. The pentagonal centers make it much less confusing than 1.1.10, but note that the cornercenters there are equivalent to the edgecenters here and viceversa. 4. Solve the thintriangles using the prescribed method way above. 5. Pat yourself on the back for a job well done. In retrospect, using this streamlined method... I think sub90min is probable and sub2hrs quite likely (for me I mean). Still the Pyraminx Crystal is confusing to see and it would have been nice to have an applet option to temporarily grayout unnecessary pieces.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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Danny Devitt

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:56 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:51 am Location: Malibu, California

I currently have solutions to a couple of unsolved puzzles but I want to solve first before I post. One of them is simply grigr's 1.2.9 solution so that hardly counts. The other one I'm going to solve tomorrow but I already see some possible complications at step 1 (although the rest will definitely work). Recognition is also going to suck for step 1. If Doug happens to solve it before I do, I'll be mad grrrr this is my angry face lol. EDIT: I also just figured out how to solve 1.1.6!
_________________ I am taking a break from the forum. You can reach me by PM if needed.


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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

Please Inform me, if any algorithm, contains an error, that I would correct it
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coastercrazy10

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:57 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:32 pm Location: Near Cincinnati, OH

Just started getting into this and i just solved 1.2.1. Not too difficult, but a very VERY fun puzzle. I can see myself sitting here for a LONG time working on these.
CC10
_________________
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Danny Devitt

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:41 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:51 am Location: Malibu, California

I'm the first solver of 1.3.7!!! As for a solution, I'll outline what I did but it was all just intuition and very simple commutators. A and B in my algorithms are always turns of a vertex and C is a turn of a face. 1. Solve the 60 2color pieces. I didn't use any algorithms for this, it was all intuitive. Recognition sucks and when you get to the last few pieces, you can run into some annoying situations. One thing that you can do (that I didn't really do) is to make all of the 30 pairs and then do a 1.2.1 solve. However, if you do that, you can run into a situation where two of the pairs are switched. I don't really know if that is considered a parity or not. This was definitely the hardest step and it took me about 2 hours. I probably wouldn't be able to do it much faster if I solved it again. 2. Solve the centers. You can simply 3cycle them with A B A' B'. This is a very easy step and it took me almost no time at all. 3. Solve the 60 dimond pieces. Again, you can use a simple commutator of the form A B A' B' C B A B' A' C' to 3cycle them. This took me about 2 hours although it easily could have taken less. 4. Solve the 60 onecolor triangles. A B A' B' C B A B' A' C' is again a 3cycle here although it is important to realize that C is in a different place relative to A and B than it was in step 3. This took about 45 minutes, which I could probably cut down a little if I solved again. So there you go. It's not very hard, but it takes a while to 3cycle 192 pieces. I'm just glad it's over with and I'm very happy to finally contribute something of value to this thread. EDIT: Apparently it is really 1.3.8 that I solved because 1.3.7 is one of the hidden puzzles.
_________________ I am taking a break from the forum. You can reach me by PM if needed.


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merlintocs

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:33 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm Location: St. Louis, Missouri


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Bigandrewgold

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:40 pm Location: Tennessee

what is a hidden puzzle on Gelatin Brain
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Personal Bests single(avg of 12) 3x322.21(27.09) 4x41:28.18(1:53.49) 5x53:23.99(3:55.61)


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Danny Devitt

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:51 am Location: Malibu, California

There are 10 hidden puzzles on GB. If you'll notice, on the bottom of the rankings page it says "Puzzles Solved (/189)". However, only 179 puzzles show up on the main page. So then the question is where are the other 10 puzzles? Well it turns out that if you click on a puzzle (any puzzle) and click file to get the drop down list of all the puzzles, the 10 hidden ones are also listed and linked there. By comparing the list with the home page, you can easily figure out which are the hidden ones. As far as solving the hidden ones, I wouldn't really try it because chances are that they won't go to the scoreboard.
_________________ I am taking a break from the forum. You can reach me by PM if needed.


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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

Danny Devitt wrote: I'm the first solver of 1.3.7!!!
You have correctly heard my thought! To solve riddles which anybody, never solved on much more interesting, If they very difficult and beautiful it is even better!
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Danny Devitt

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:13 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:51 am Location: Malibu, California

Holy crap! Apparently the hidden puzzles got added today!
EDIT: It seems I spoke too soon because only 4 were added today. However, I'm not sure how many there really were (although it obviously was assumed to be 10) so I'm going to look at the list and see what's still hidden.
EDIT 2: There are still 2 hidden spheres but nothing else. So where did the other 4 go?
_________________ I am taking a break from the forum. You can reach me by PM if needed.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:13 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Bigandrewgold wrote: what is a hidden puzzle on Gelatin Brain Dude, read the thread... I am going to be getting busy and don't have time to finish up, but I worked out a somewhat efficent method for 1.1.14 (empty scoreboard). I'm 500 turns in, and have it nearly converted to a [peudo] Pyraminx Crystal. I formed a bunch of groupings and have ample alg arsenal to finish it off  although I stopped just before a needed parity fix. I really want to be the first to solve it... I hope nobody beats me to it. If my computer stays good, I'll eventually get a time that is over a good multiple of 24hrs. Then again I dropped the ball on 2.1.1. It's another puzzle I *theoretically can* solve but it's a huge time commitment.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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Derek Bosch

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:25 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:30 pm Location: bay area, california

I'm looking for a little advice / help on the 3.3.5 puzzle... Well, not actually that puzzle, but the Toru puzzle which is very closely related... The main differences are that the "centers" of 3.3.5 have orientation to consider, and the "edges" of 3.3.5 do not...
I've solved these "differences", but it is the little face triangles that have me stumped... I found a 3cycle for some of them, but have had a lot of trouble figuring out the setup moves...
I'm also trying to model the puzzle under ksolve, but it might be more than the program can handle... I just wish ksolve was opensourced, as I'd love to run it on my faster computer (macbook pro) without running windows...
Cheers, Derek


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merlintocs

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Managed 5.3.1 in 105 moves and 7:10 today. This was the first time I had attempted this particular puzzle. Not difficult at all. I'm sure I could improve both moves and time if I stuck with this one for a while.


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merlintocs

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Just got 5.3.2 as well, which only had 3 solvers. That's 40 puzzles solved for me. Yay!
Also improved 1.2.1 significantly, with 180 moves and 11:13.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:04 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

merlintocs wrote: Managed 5.3.1 in 105 moves and 7:10 today. This was the first time I had attempted this particular puzzle. Not difficult at all. I'm sure I could improve both moves and time if I stuck with this one for a while. merlintocs wrote: Just got 5.3.2 as well, which only had 3 solvers. That's 40 puzzles solved for me. Yay! Also improved 1.2.1 significantly, with 180 moves and 11:13. This aren't really puzzles "we" are concerned with on the actual time or turns, it's good enough to have solved them. First of all, it's not what is generally considered hard. I did those early on and then had a lot of trouble with the 5.2.x series. Secondly, there have been standing requests from more than one person that the applet be changed to allow direct vertexturns to be more general and open to different solving styles/attacks. After that point perhaps people will become serious about those. I've noticed they are not puzzles that get repeated attempts on (probably because they are not terribly fun to work with). Also, no one has written a solution outline for those yet, so you are welcome to of course. The thing is... I'm not sure anyone who has solved it remembers what steps they used. It's possible to get those without much insight, some random clicks, and patience I think. Because you solved a lot of the hard puzzles first, I will be expecting that you post more along the lines of "I just finished off all the 5.2.x series" or "I solved all the 4.2.x" not on a couple minor puzzles! Well.... unless you give solutions, useful algs, or breakthroughs you've discovered  that is always great to read. Okay merlintocs, try 4.2.3. It's something that will offer insight and help you with building strategies to exploit indistinguishable pieces for turnminimization.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:16 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Derek Bosch wrote: I'm looking for a little advice / help on the 3.3.5 puzzle... Well, not actually that puzzle, but the Toru puzzle which is very closely related... The main differences are that the "centers" of 3.3.5 have orientation to consider, and the "edges" of 3.3.5 do not... Providing a link or a photo of this Toru would be helpful. I found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdhXTkEfdM4Except that is massively shapechanging and it's unclear to me from the vid, what the pieces actually function like when compared to 3.3.5 and how the puzzle is cut. So from your discription, I'm guessing it's the Dual form of 3.3.5? But that would place it in the 4.3.x category, but there isn't one close to matching Toru there.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:17 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

I as solved: 5.3.1 and 5.3.2 at me all algorithms have remained and I can publish them only I used rotation of corner (UMC)
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Derek Bosch

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:32 am 

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:30 pm Location: bay area, california

While the Toru is shape changing (jumbleable), it doesn't need to be... It is a faceturning rhombic dodecahdron, which match up with the edge turning nature of the 3.3.5... As long as you only turn the faces 180 degrees...
The "centers" of the toru are the big edges of the 3.3.5... The 4color corners of the Toru are the Centers of the 3.3.5, and the 3color corners of the Toru are the same as the cube...
I'll try and annotate a picture with both puzzles for comparison... But I'm pretty sure they are the same fundamental puzzle...
Cheers, Derek


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merlintocs

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:45 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm Location: St. Louis, Missouri

UMichSpeedCubist wrote: merlintocs wrote: Managed 5.3.1 in 105 moves and 7:10 today. This was the first time I had attempted this particular puzzle. Not difficult at all. I'm sure I could improve both moves and time if I stuck with this one for a while. merlintocs wrote: Just got 5.3.2 as well, which only had 3 solvers. That's 40 puzzles solved for me. Yay! Also improved 1.2.1 significantly, with 180 moves and 11:13. This aren't really puzzles "we" are concerned with on the actual time or turns, it's good enough to have solved them. First of all, it's not what is generally considered hard. I did those early on and then had a lot of trouble with the 5.2.x series. Secondly, there have been standing requests from more than one person that the applet be changed to allow direct vertexturns to be more general and open to different solving styles/attacks. After that point perhaps people will become serious about those. I've noticed they are not puzzles that get repeated attempts on (probably because they are not terribly fun to work with). Also, no one has written a solution outline for those yet, so you are welcome to of course. The thing is... I'm not sure anyone who has solved it remembers what steps they used. It's possible to get those without much insight, some random clicks, and patience I think. Because you solved a lot of the hard puzzles first, I will be expecting that you post more along the lines of "I just finished off all the 5.2.x series" or "I solved all the 4.2.x" not on a couple minor puzzles! Well.... unless you give solutions, useful algs, or breakthroughs you've discovered  that is always great to read. Okay merlintocs, try 4.2.3. It's something that will offer insight and help you with building strategies to exploit indistinguishable pieces for turnminimization. Sigh. Well, I see your point of course. I'll try not to post about the little stuff anymore. After reading your post, I tried 4.2.3 and solved it without too much difficulty. Looking at 4.2.4 now. If I can get a block of time, I'd like to go back and revisit a couple of puzzles I've already done and try to improve them, too.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:46 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

dodeca_f18, which is I think 1.1.14: Progress comes at a price. I've been chiping away at it and just finished solving the 3color center pieces. I can easily pure 3cycle the thin trinalges and the fat triangles separately. So that will not be a problem, just a lot of time. There would then be a matter of the needed 3cycle of 1color corner pieces, which I left remaining earlier on (note yellow, maroon, light blue). Any ideas? Any one want to beat me to solving this guy? EDIT: I plan on posting my solution after I've solved it.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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merlintocs

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:58 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Gelatinbrain, my score for 5.3.2 apparently did not register. My total number of puzzles solved is correct, however my name/moves/time did not show up on the scores page under that puzzle. Would you mind taking a look? Thank you!
Last edited by merlintocs on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:11 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

merlintocs wrote: Gelatinbrain, my score for 5.3.2 apparently did not register. My total number of puzzles solved is correct, however my name/moves/time did not show up on the scores page under that puzzle. Would you mind taking a look? Thank you! Scoreboards are updated manually, and it can take up to 3 days for him to get around to it. No worries... However, it is possible that the score got it's transmission attempt during a break in your internet connection or something. Posting here is the right thing to do, since he check it occasionally. Still..., not as bad as the one time I solved 4x4 like once a day for several days and it never got in, while my other puzzle attempts got logged. Btw, it is better to crop any screen captures you post here, as to protect privacy and give concise information.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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merlintocs

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:57 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm Location: St. Louis, Missouri

UMichSpeedCubist wrote: merlintocs wrote: Gelatinbrain, my score for 5.3.2 apparently did not register. My total number of puzzles solved is correct, however my name/moves/time did not show up on the scores page under that puzzle. Would you mind taking a look? Thank you! Scoreboards are updated manually, and it can take up to 3 days for him to get around to it. No worries... However, it is possible that the score got it's transmission attempt during a break in your internet connection or something. Posting here is the right thing to do, since he check it occasionally. Still..., not as bad as the one time I solved 4x4 like once a day for several days and it never got in, while my other puzzle attempts got logged. Btw, it is better to crop any screen captures you post here, as to protect privacy and give concise information. Wow, I thought it was updated automatically, since it always seems to update so quickly after I submit a score. Well, I'm sure it will get there in the end one way or another. Thanks for the info.


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gelatinbrain

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:19 pm 

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 7:13 pm Location: Bruxelles, Belgium

merlintocs wrote: UMichSpeedCubist wrote: merlintocs wrote: Gelatinbrain, my score for 5.3.2 apparently did not register. My total number of puzzles solved is correct, however my name/moves/time did not show up on the scores page under that puzzle. Would you mind taking a look? Thank you! Scoreboards are updated manually, and it can take up to 3 days for him to get around to it. No worries... However, it is possible that the score got it's transmission attempt during a break in your internet connection or something. Posting here is the right thing to do, since he check it occasionally. Still..., not as bad as the one time I solved 4x4 like once a day for several days and it never got in, while my other puzzle attempts got logged. Btw, it is better to crop any screen captures you post here, as to protect privacy and give concise information. Wow, I thought it was updated automatically, since it always seems to update so quickly after I submit a score. Well, I'm sure it will get there in the end one way or another. Thanks for the info. This is 5.2.2 and not 5.3.2. Your record did register. The scores are semiautomatically updated. That means the update program runs every one hour while my computer is online. But sometimes the records take a good while to arrive me or never arrives by some unknown reason. If record does not register, please don't ask me here to do it manually, except in case of bug. I'm too busy to do that. I suppressed the certificate function because some people abuses this function and spams.
_________________ Virtual Magic Polyhedra Applet(Online) Executable Jar Installer Win32 Executable(Download) troubleshooting


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merlintocs

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm Location: St. Louis, Missouri

gelatinbrain wrote: This is 5.2.2 and not 5.3.2. Your record did register. The scores are semiautomatically updated. That means the update program runs every one hour while my computer is online. But sometimes the records take a good while to arrive me or never arrives by some unknown reason. If record does not register, please don't ask me here to do it manually, except in case of bug. I'm too busy to do that. I suppressed the certificate function because some people abuses this function and spams. OK. My mistake. Sorry to bother you.


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Julian

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am Location: Brighton, UK

UMichSpeedCubist wrote: dodeca_f18, which is I think 1.1.14: Progress comes at a price. I've been chiping away at it and just finished solving the 3color center pieces. I can easily pure 3cycle the thin trinalges and the fat triangles separately. So that will not be a problem, just a lot of time. There would then be a matter of the needed 3cycle of 1color corner pieces, which I left remaining earlier on (note yellow, maroon, light blue). Any ideas? Any one want to beat me to solving this guy? EDIT: I plan on posting my solution after I've solved it. 1.1.14 looks like a Pyraminx Crystal with centre pieces and extra triangles. ShiftClick in 1.1.14 is the equivalent of moving the 5 corners that lie just beyond the Crystal cut, while splitting the 10 edges in between them into illegal colour combinations. In the above position you have the equivalent of swapping around 3 tiles of distant Pyraminx Crystal edge pieces, resulting in impossible edge colour combinations. My approach to 1.1.14 would be to use ShiftClick to pair up the singlecoloured 3tile pieces into "legal" Crystal edges first of all, and solve the puzzle without using Shift again. Then solve corners and edges like a Crystal, ignoring the centres and triangles; then fix the centres and centreadjacent triangles like 1.1.4; then finally the corneradjacent triangles. It's the first phase with ShiftClick that scares me, but I have next week off work so I might be brave enough to try it, and I'll you know how I get on.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:52 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Julian wrote: 1.1.14 looks like a Pyraminx Crystal with centre pieces and extra triangles. ShiftClick in 1.1.14 is the equivalent of moving the 5 corners that lie just beyond the Crystal cut, while splitting the 10 edges in between them into illegal colour combinations.
In the above position you have the equivalent of swapping around 3 tiles of distant Pyraminx Crystal edge pieces, resulting in impossible edge colour combinations. My approach to 1.1.14 would be to use ShiftClick to pair up the singlecoloured 3tile pieces into "legal" Crystal edges first of all, and solve the puzzle without using Shift again. Then solve corners and edges like a Crystal, ignoring the centres and triangles; then fix the centres and centreadjacent triangles like 1.1.4; then finally the corneradjacent triangles. It's the first phase with ShiftClick that scares me, but I have next week off work so I might be brave enough to try it, and I'll you know how I get on. You are close but not entirely correct. You either neglected to notice yourself, or neglected to point out that the the 2sticker edge pieces are actually pairs that can be separated and there is an issue similar to 4x4 EdgePairing that is working in tandum with the 1color corners. The actual idea/methodology for fully completing such pairs, is something I previously thought I had mastered and can theoretically do it here. However due to the way it turns, things get rather confusing, and I didn't want to go through the trouble of massive pen & paper use (at least not yet). I kept reducing it from one case to another  never getting any closer, so I moved on to the Pyraminx Crystal phase. At least seeing as it's an actual 3cycle that there is no parity in how I left it. For me I have pure 3cycle algs for both types of trinaglepieces so I don't need to do them in any particular order. And I haven't even decided that yet.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:59 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia

grigr wrote: I as solved: 5.3.1 and 5.3.2 and I can publish them Algorithms for simple tetrahedrons, 5.1.2+5.2.1 and 5.1.4+5.2.2 published AndrewG You easily solve 5.3.1 combining algorithms from 5.1.2 and 5.2.1, as 5.3.2 = 5.1.4+5.2.2
_________________ my Shop: ShapeWays, grigorusha Big Puzzle Sale: EBay


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Alright I just solved 1.1.14 (dodeca_f18)! I didn't take any more intermediate screen caps, and it's silly to post an image of it solved since we all know what it looks like when solved... I got 2054 turns, and the time shows up clipped as "[:9:44:43]".
The endgame was easier than I had expected. My initial assumption of a length26 alg for 3cycling the fat triangles did not work (I thought it did on a clean puzzle due to indistinguishabilities). I then found that the alg I used for the thintriangles could be adopted over. I came up with a length10 alg just by holding shift on one of the commutator parts. The new alg consisted entirely of shiftclicks.
Also, the 3cycle of 1color cornerpieces I showed on my previous post, I was able to fix at the start of today's sitting by using the concept of using chainedconjugation to cycle 3 corners on the same layer on a 3x3 (think R'D'RUR'DRUR'D'RU'U'R'DR).
Here is my recommended solution: 1. Perform "DiamondEdge Pairing" on the 1color corners and 2sticker edges to form groups of 4pieces that together become a single Pyraminx Crystal edge piece. At the end, it is more important to get the 2sticker edges paired then to have the 1color corners correct  this can be fixed latter. (I am planning on witting up a comprehensive article on what I mean by DiamondEdge Pairing and how to do it.) Basically form entire groups of 4 first, before moving on... and track which are close to done to finish those first as well as not ruin partially finished ones.
2. Solve the induced Pyraminx Crystal. I prefer to solve all the 3color centers first and then maneuver the edgegroups into place. (Same as if it was a plain Pyraminx Crystal, ...well unless I'm doing uber turnmin.)
3. Solve the pentagonalcenters using the usual length12 alg for 22swap similar to (R'FRF')^3.
4. Solve the fattriangles using the following concept. Example: (hold view as one with central face's Star "pointing up") targeting the upper fattriangle of the central face, as well as any other piece on the Dshiftorbital, as well as one of the pieces on the reverseview... execute something like (r'2 l2 r2 l'2) d2 (l2 r'2 l'2 r2) d'2. You'll have to test it out to know which of the back pieces it will touch, since it's hard to explain without a picture. Half the time I use it's mirror of course.
5. Solve the thintriangles using the similar concept. Try something like (R'2 L2 R2 L'2) d (L2 R'2 L'2 R2) D'. Half the time I use it's mirror of course. Again... hold with centralstar pointed up.
Steps 4 and 5 are entirely interchangeable and independent. And you will of course need progressively more setup turns as things progress on steps 4 and 5.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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Danny Devitt

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:52 am 

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:51 am Location: Malibu, California

Congrats Doug! But you need to get your butt moving on a few of these # of puzzles solveddodeca: 23 icosa: 25 hexa: 34 octa: 20 tetra: 27 spheres: 7 total: 136 So which 5 hasn't Doug solved? 1.1.6 1.1.7b 1.1.8 1.3.8 3.3.4 The first 2 have 3 solvers each, the rest have 1 each.
_________________ I am taking a break from the forum. You can reach me by PM if needed.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:43 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Danny Devitt wrote: But you need to get your butt moving on a few of these :wink: While I appriciate the summary you've given me, and will be using it... I'm a busy guy. Btw 2.1.1 is still on the top of my list, although the 1.1.x for x>14 would be easy points for me (*maybe*). [Edit: deleted offtopic part of post for privacy] Doug
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03
Last edited by UMichSpeedCubist on Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Danny Devitt wrote: So which 5 hasn't Doug solved?
1.1.6 1.1.7b 1.1.8 1.3.8 3.3.4 Btw, I prefer to solve the unsolved. I just got 1.1.15 (dodeca_f19) using 1215 turns and under an hour. It was pretty straightforward. Here's my method: 1. Solve the induced centerless Megaminx. 2. Solve the obtusetriangles using 3cycles, a simple 10turn commutator alg. 3. Solve the centers using a 12turn alg for 22 swap. 4. Solve the acutetriangles using 3cycles, a simple 10turn commutator alg (but due to no slice turn count, it is counted as 14 turns). I am now up to 132 puzzle points. Which means I have just lapped AndrewG and merlintocs by a factor of 3 (44*3=132).
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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Julian

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am Location: Brighton, UK

UMichSpeedCubist wrote: Alright I just solved 1.1.14 (dodeca_f18)! I didn't take any more intermediate screen caps, and it's silly to post an image of it solved since we all know what it looks like when solved... I got 2054 turns, and the time shows up clipped as "[:9:44:43]". I had an algo to post for you yesterday evening but you'd already solved the puzzle! I decided to start 1.1.14 last night, and after three tiring sessions, finished it this afternoon. I solved it as I sketched out in my previous post, with an addition final stage to solve the 2sticker pieces that I overlooked when initially playing around with the puzzle. In case you're wondering why I left the 2sticker pieces to the end, I figured that if I encountered an odd permutation I would do a single Shiftclick to 10cycle a ring of those pieces, then solve them using 3cycles, then solve the other pieces, setting up samelooking pieces where necessary to effect an apparent 2swap via a 3cycle. (I got an even perm so I didn't need to test my theory!) Also my recognition skills are quite poor, so I found it very helpful to have solidlooking face colours around which to spot the 2sticker pieces towards the end. [Example colours for the algos below: U = orange, L = red, R = green, DL = dark blue, DR = pink, B = white. Lower case means hold Shift while clicking.] 3cycle of cubelooking pieces for the initial, Crystal edgematching phase; I like it because it's easy to visualise the positions of the pieces to be moved in the "Shiftband" of the DR face: (dr dl' dr' dl) U (dl' dr dl dr') U' Pure 3cycle of 2sticker pieces: (r2' l2 r2 l2') B (l2 r2' l2' r2) B' That was quite a marathon and I think I need a rest from the "soccerball" subset for a while! Offtopic: I'm a keen amateur pianist too  nice to see you posting your interests.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:13 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Julian wrote: I solved it as I sketched out in my previous post, with an addition final stage to solve the 2sticker pieces that I overlooked when initially playing around with the puzzle. In case you're wondering why I left the 2sticker pieces to the end, I figured that if I encountered an odd permutation I would do a single Shiftclick to 10cycle a ring of those pieces, then solve them using 3cycles, then solve the other pieces, setting up samelooking pieces where necessary to effect an apparent 2swap via a 3cycle. (I got an even perm so I didn't need to test my theory!) Also my recognition skills are quite poor, so I found it very helpful to have solidlooking face colours around which to spot the 2sticker pieces towards the end. What sort of turncount did you get? That's the best way to compare how efficent our methods were. I bet yours is better. I latter realized that the 2sticker edge pieces can be pure 3cycled using a 10turn alg like you described. Doing my wacky "DiamondEdge Pairing" tricks is very timeconsuming. As is solving Pyraminx Crystal edges after Pyraminx Crystal corners. I am unsure what a very efficent method would be though... clearly it was a good idea to pairup 1color corner pieces. But doing so without the 2sticker edges is worst than attempting EdgePairing on 2.2.9a/2.2.10a! Perhaps there is a way that you directly solved the 1color corner pieces early on... such as after solving all the 3color centers. That might be the smartest method. Anyhow, 1.1.15 wasn't that bad. You should try it. Doug
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:22 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

1.1.16 (dodeca_f20) SOLVED. 574 turns, time of 33:51.
Three easy steps:
EDIT: 0. FaceCenters are fixed like on a 3x3. 1. Solve like Gigaminx centersreduction. 2. Pairedges like 4x4 edgereduction but on Gigaminx structure. 3. Solve like cornerless Megaminx.
BTW, for 1.1.15 I used a cagemethod, and I'm starting to think that doing centersfirst on that also, would have been more efficent.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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Julian

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:36 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am Location: Brighton, UK

UMichSpeedCubist wrote: What sort of turncount did you get? That's the best way to compare how efficent our methods were. I bet yours is better. I latter realized that the 2sticker edge pieces can be pure 3cycled using a 10turn alg like you described. Doing my wacky "DiamondEdge Pairing" tricks is very timeconsuming. As is solving Pyraminx Crystal edges after Pyraminx Crystal corners. I am unsure what a very efficent method would be though... clearly it was a good idea to pairup 1color corner pieces. But doing so without the 2sticker edges is worst than attempting EdgePairing on 2.2.9a/2.2.10a!
Perhaps there is a way that you directly solved the 1color corner pieces early on... such as after solving all the 3color centers. That might be the smartest method.
Anyhow, 1.1.15 wasn't that bad. You should try it.
Doug I took 2,974 moves. I didn't track every stage of the puzzle, but I did write a note "Crystal without 2pieces = 614", meaning the 1colour and 3colour pieces were in a solved Pyraminx Crystal state after 614 moves. I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but it does prove that I took longer cycling the other pieces than you did solving the entire puzzle! I find your turn count of just over 2,000 moves very impressive. I need to revisit 1.1.4 and learn ways of reducing my move count for cycling triangles. I discovered and used the wellknown 12move algo for the centres and 10move algo for the triangles from the beginning, but clearly I'm not using them nearly as efficiently as I could  your 927 turns to my 1280 for 1.1.4 is a big difference. With 1.1.4 and the thin triangles of 1.1.14 I find quite quickly that I have to apply the inverse of what I want twice, to cancel the unwanted pair swaps that would disturb solved pieces. I am guessing you have tricks to minimise the need for this, to arrange a "safe dumping ground" of unsolved pieces to save those extra 10 moves? Also, how often do you solve 2 triangles at a time with the 3cycles  a lot or occasionally? Maybe you could do a little writeup on "Cycling Wings/Tippies Efficiently: Hints & Tips"? Given how many of the GB puzzles are heavy in cycles, I bet a lot of people besides me would find it interesting and helpful. I must admit that for the first part of 1.1.14, I had a Pyraminx Crystal sitting on my desk for reference and I went face by face noting down which edge combos were incorrect and fixing them. Starting with White, I'd write "P Blue [check] D Green [check] Purple x (Yellow) Blue x (Orange) Brown [check]" and I'd fix the WhitePurple and WhiteBlue edges before moving onto the Pale Blue face. I then solved the Crystal layer by layer, but without the F2Lstyle pairing I'd normally apply to pieces 1120, to avoid confusing myself. Directly solving the 1colour corners into their solved Crystal edge positions might be the best movewise, yes. I can't face solving the whole of 1.1.14 again, but "How fast can I make a solved Crystal with the 1 and 3coloured pieces?" is challenge I could enjoy. The solutions I am most happy with are for 1.1.7/Pentultimate (about 325 moves average) and 1.1.7b/SuperPentultimate (about 475 moves average). I'll try do a proper writeup for those in the coming week. Thanks for the headsup on 1.1.15; I'll give it a try.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Julian wrote: I took 2,974 moves. I didn't track every stage of the puzzle, but I did write a note "Crystal without 2pieces = 614", meaning the 1colour and 3colour pieces were in a solved Pyraminx Crystal state after 614 moves. I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but it does prove that I took longer cycling the other pieces than you did solving the entire puzzle! I find your turn count of just over 2,000 moves very impressive. Thanks! I was at about 1118 when I got everything but the thintriangles and fattriangles. Ya, you should work on cycling more effectively. I really did assume yours would have me beat, by the way you described your steps. Hem... Julian wrote: I need to revisit 1.1.4 and learn ways of reducing my move count for cycling triangles. I discovered and used the wellknown 12move algo for the centres and 10move algo for the triangles from the beginning, but clearly I'm not using them nearly as efficiently as I could  your 927 turns to my 1280 for 1.1.4 is a big difference. That's not too much of a difference... I've been able to beat people by a factor of 2 regularly. TurnOptimization is my specialty. Julian wrote: With 1.1.4 and the thin triangles of 1.1.14 I find quite quickly that I have to apply the inverse of what I want twice, to cancel the unwanted pair swaps that would disturb solved pieces. I am guessing you have tricks to minimise the need for this, to arrange a "safe dumping ground" of unsolved pieces to save those extra 10 moves? Also, how often do you solve 2 triangles at a time with the 3cycles  a lot or occasionally? Simple answer: a lot. About 90% of the time I am guessing. On some puzzles I can score a perfect 3/3 off the 3cycle about 1520% of the time. I rarely have to barrow from a solved one, and commute with itself a second time. As for "dumping ground" or what I like to call "crude layer/locations", yes I do that a little bit but not for turnoptimization, it's only for recognition and speed. I regularly save those last 10 turns because I first reduce, and THEN insert as a group. Julian wrote: Maybe you could do a little writeup on "Cycling Wings/Tippies Efficiently: Hints & Tips"? Given how many of the GB puzzles are heavy in cycles, I bet a lot of people besides me would find it interesting and helpful. I am currently working on a lengthy guide describing "DiamondEdge Pairing" for stuff like 1.1.14, 6.2.x, and some of the higher order faceturning octahedron. I didn't plan on writing anything about the stuff you listed. I don't own a Pyraminx Crystal, but did solve one in RL last year, once. Julian wrote: Thanks for the headsup on 1.1.15; I'll give it a try. Also, 1.1.16 was easy. Now 1.1.17 is proving extremely annoying... I can't seem to move anything around without disturbing everything else. I don't imagine it will get solved by anyone anytime soon. The 2color edges are the biggest problem.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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Julian

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:33 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am Location: Brighton, UK

UMichSpeedCubist wrote: Julian wrote: With 1.1.4 and the thin triangles of 1.1.14 I find quite quickly that I have to apply the inverse of what I want twice, to cancel the unwanted pair swaps that would disturb solved pieces. I am guessing you have tricks to minimise the need for this, to arrange a "safe dumping ground" of unsolved pieces to save those extra 10 moves? Also, how often do you solve 2 triangles at a time with the 3cycles  a lot or occasionally? Simple answer: a lot. About 90% of the time I am guessing. On some puzzles I can score a perfect 3/3 off the 3cycle about 1520% of the time. I rarely have to barrow from a solved one, and commute with itself a second time. As for "dumping ground" or what I like to call "crude layer/locations", yes I do that a little bit but not for turnoptimization, it's only for recognition and speed. I regularly save those last 10 turns because I first reduce, and THEN insert as a group. Thanks for the pointers. UMichSpeedCubist wrote: Now 1.1.17 is proving extremely annoying... I can't seem to move anything around without disturbing everything else. I don't imagine it will get solved by anyone anytime soon. The 2color edges are the biggest problem. [Edit]: 1.1.17 (dodeca_f21) solved, as below: 1. Centres like a Pentultimate. 2. 3cycle 2colour triangles with DR u' DR' u (not pure). 3. 3cycle big triangles with dl D dl' u' dl D' dl' u (not pure). 4. 3cycle medium triangles with DL D DL' u' DL D' DL' u (pure). 5. 3cycle little triangles with (dl D dl' u dl D' dl' u') r (u dl D dl' u' dl D' dl') r' (pure). [U = White, R = Dark Green, DL = Pink, DR = Dark Blue, D = Yellow, upper case = regular click, lower case = Shiftclick.] This was another one that took multiple sessions over two days. Stage 2 was the most interesting and challenging, incorporating some 2gen and 3gen intuitive stuff with free or almostfree faces to coax pieces into the necessary positions for cycling, or sometimes to place them directly. Also some Shiftclicking here and there with the setups, which I hadn't anticipated. But the essence of placing the 2colour triangles was the little 4move cycle of them around a pentagon. Stage 2 was finished after 597 moves, then my move count spiralled a bit out of control as usual, though I am gradually learning. I went to bed having finished Stage 3, which looked pretty cool, I should have taken a screenshot  a multicoloured soccerball with kaleidoscopic triangles in the middle of each pentagon. So now all of (nonhidden) 1.1.x are solved.
Last edited by Julian on Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.


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grigr

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm Location: Russia


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Julian

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:35 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am Location: Brighton, UK

2.1.3 (icosa_f0)  Solution Outline With Some Algos & Hints
The most awkward pieces to place are the outer centres  the singlecolour wing triangles adjoining the large centre triangles. They were the biggest influence on the order of the solution. F = Red, L = Brown, UL = Light Green, R = Purple, D = Yellow, DR = Olive Green. (This is the standard view on the left when first launching the applet.)
1. Permute corners. Easy, intuitive.
2. Permute centres. Cycle a few times with (F UL' F' UL) DR' (UL' F UL F') DR and any necessary setup moves. This algo is pure (does not affect any other pieces) so the centres can be permuted later in the solve if desired.
3. Permute outer centres. The following commutator swaps 3 nonoverlapping chunks of pieces, each of which includes a corner of the L face, in 8 moves; then turns the L face, reverses the 8 moves, and reverses the L turn. The result is a 3cycle of wing triangles, which also twists two corners and moves some edges around: (R' D R UL' R' D' R UL) L' (UL' R' D R UL R' D' R) L.
4. Orient corners. Pull a corner from a face and push it back in a twisted position in 5 moves, making sure that the other pieces of that face are left intact, ignoring the twocolour edges for now. Now twist the face, undo the 5 moves, and undo the face twist, and you have a commutator of 12 moves that twists one corner clockwise and another corner anticlockwise, also moving some edges around.
5. Permute edges. Replace a lower edge of a face/layer with another in 9 moves, making sure that the rest of the face is left intact. Now twist the face, undo the 9 moves, and undo the face twist, and you have a pure 20move commutator to cycle 3 edges. I place two edges at a time this way. If only two pieces are left out of position at the end, you'll need to setup an identicallooking piece to complete the solve.
Suggested improvement: It would be better to sort out the wing triangles faster. Perhaps a shorter sequence for the first 15 wings, leaving the 6 corners of those 5 adjacent faces intact but ignoring what happens to the rest of the puzzle. So the order might become: permute 6 corners (5 around 1), then solve the wing triangles of those 5 adjacent faces quickly, then permute the other 6 corners, then permute the centres (if the quick wing moves mess up the centres), and then the slower wing 3cycles for the other 45 wings, and stages 4 and 5 as before.
Last edited by Julian on Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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merlintocs

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:57 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:45 pm Location: St. Louis, Missouri

UMichSpeedCubist wrote: I am now up to 132 puzzle points. Which means I have just lapped AndrewG and merlintocs by a factor of 3 (44*3=132). Yowza!!  OK, I've been working on 1.1.11 for a couple of days. Every single stinking time, I wind up with two pairs of edges swapped like this: I suppose it's like the parity you get on even numbered cubes, but I have yet to find any way to swap them using my own algs or to adapt the cube parity algs to work in this case. I'm sure there is an obvious answer I'm not seeing. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks.


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UMichSpeedCubist

Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:40 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:43 pm Location: Ann Arbor, MI

merlintocs wrote: I suppose it's like the parity you get on even numbered cubes, but I have yet to find any way to swap them using my own algs or to adapt the cube parity algs to work in this case. I'm sure there is an obvious answer I'm not seeing. Can anyone point me in the right direction? That is exactly the same as something that could happen on the 5x5. This case can also happen on the Gigaminx. What would you have done on those? At the very end like that, you'd just use a commutator. 1. Pair two of them up. 2. Flip the pair/tripplet. 3. Pair the ohter two up. 4. Unflip the pair/tripplet. In practice, finding an actual commutator that works is too much of a hassle (due to the way it turns), so I'd have paired the edges and resolved the segmentedMegaminx. Ideally, this is something you should never have hit in the first place, because it's possible to have used a simple "ReductionMethod" and group all the edge pieces together like on a typical 5x5 solve.
_________________ averages => 2x2  10.02, 3x3  22.16, 4x4  1:40.63, 5x5  2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4  1:21.78, 5x5  2:05.11, magic  1.38, master magic  5.03


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