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 Post subject: solving it yourself
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:32 pm 
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I almost answered a question about getting faster, but I realized that the cuber isn't solving it him/herself, and it dawned on me "why help someone who is just copying someone else's efforts?" I really don't want to encourage this copycat program.

I'd rather encourage people to figure it out themselves.

In the old days, when the cube first appeared, almost all of the people you saw solving the cube actually figured it out. I realise that this is not the case anymore and that is a shame. In the old days to solve a cube meant understanding it - being an authority, in the sense that the solver was an author of their own solution.

So I've created this topic as a gathering place for people who figure things out themselves. Maybe newcomers would respond to enthusiasm for using more of their brains, and figure it out on their own.

DJ

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:59 pm 
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GOOD CALL! I whole heartdedly agree with you!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:45 am 
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Agree, too. Based on sad personal history. I'm most proud having found a clock method myself when I was 11, much better than having solved the cube a few years earlier after being selfishly fed a solution. Nowadays I solve on my own first, though by now I also know and understand a few general very useful techniques.

Also see my comments here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y892qS4FcQI

Though, you seem to be even more strict. If someone already knows how to solve and just wants to become faster, that's a situation very different from someone not yet knowing how to solve at all, and I mostly discourage suggestions in the latter case.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:10 am 
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I figured almost all of the cube myself, which I highly regret looking up an algorithm that is equivalent of a Niklas.

Everything but orientation parity on all my other puzzles I found myself (the permutation parity was simply breaking two pairs and repairing another way). I'm also glad I found a general solution for any NxNxN puzzle. However, to get faster, I looked up better 4x4, 5x5, and Megaminx solutions.

Generally, I come up with super-simple solutions:

Skewb, 2 algs.
Domino, 2 algs (no I don't own one, simulated on 4x4x4).
etc.

However, I'm most proud of my Square-1 solution, which does not use a parity "algorithm" per se, but a way to switch six corners (I solve for parity after doing the orientation phase).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:48 am 
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David, here's a tough question. At least it is for me, and I'm in the same situation as you: we both have published a method we invented. I don't really want to teach but instead encourage others to try things on their own, though on the other hand of course I want to publish my ideas (mostly of course to get famous and attract the girls, but also a bit to get constructive feedback on the ideas from others). I'm not sure how to feel about it. What do you think?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:15 am 
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Location: Upstate NY
The only reason I can solve the 3x3x3 is because I read that "Simple Solution to Rubik's Cube" book, which I still regret doing. (I was only 13 at the time, though, which I think is a pretty good excuse for all kinds of moronic behavior.)

Now that I'm older and wiser, I never go looking for solutions, and only try to solve puzzles using my own problem-solving skills. (Of course, this is why most of my puzzles are still unsolved.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:22 am 
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I usually stay away from any help or methods until I'm ready to speedsolve something, then I see what works best.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve-Drdc8HMg
OLD NAME : Kid_with_teh_mohawk
pb 22.19
pb avg
27.61 = 26.74, 26.69, 26.98, 23.16, 26.14, 24.63, 23.71, (22.19), 30.41, (35.42), 34.97, 32.69


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:00 am 
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Puzzles I've found out on my own:


Megaminx
Pyraminx
Skewb Diamond
4x4 (Including parity)
5x5
Dogic
Rubik's Shells (Levels 1 and 2)
Rubik's Dice
Rubik's Clock
Missing Link
Brain Twist
Alexander's Star
CMetrik Too
Orb-it



I think figuring out the puzzles for the first time is worth while. I admit, If I get stuck, or have absolutely no idea where to start, I find a basic solution online, look over it, then try again on my own with the basic concept, and if that fails, I work it out step by step with the solution.


Also, as for the cheating thing. For me, when I first started the cube, It wasn't so much of finding my own solution, but being able to remember how to solve it every time without help.

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3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:24 pm 
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Well...I think learning certain steps of a solution are good. LIke F2l for fridrich. I'm learning that on my own. It still takes me more time than the begginer method though...

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 Post subject: solving it yourself
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:42 pm 
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Stefan wrote:
David, here's a tough question. At least it is for me, and I'm in the same situation as you: we both have published a method we invented. I don't really want to teach but instead encourage others to try things on their own, though on the other hand of course I want to publish my ideas (mostly of course to get famous and attract the girls, but also a bit to get constructive feedback on the ideas from others). I'm not sure how to feel about it. What do you think?


Hi Stefan,

I think you know what I did: if someone looks at my method page, they can see that before I get to any details I write, > I recommend that you try to solve the cube on your own. Take your time, be patient with yourself, and stick with it. <

I've had several people tell me that they intended to try my method, but I have no idea whether they liked it or not. I got good feedback from Macky, who within a week was faster at my F2L method than I was! Macky hosts my CLL ELL pages for me.

I don't know...put a note at the top of your method page, that reads something like this > I'd like feedback on this method. Please take a look at the method *after* you solve it yourself, and them give me feedback. <

On the one hand I wouldn't mind teaching someone who already has their own method, but on the other hand I'm glad that I can still say that all of the methods and algorithms I use I've originated.

David J


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:23 pm 
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Location: Dallas, TX
I always try to solve a new puzzle on my own without any instructions or whatsoever, just based on techniques I have already learned. Of course I'm a bit stubborn and this is why there are a few puzzles I have yet to solve. But I like it that way. The ones I use the most are the ones I have the most trouble solving or cannot even solve yet.

Makes it much more fun for me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:30 pm 
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Location: NY, USA
Although I learned to solve my puzzles from others (for the purposes of speedcubing), I've recently found much enjoyment in developing new solving methods for puzzles. I've thought of about half a dozen different ways to solve the 5x5x5, for instance.

I don't think it's necessary to start by developing your own solution, but I believe that it would be good for anyone to spend time playing around with the Cube, even if they already know a solution. This is especially important if you use an algorithm-based method (Fridrich). Try to develop your own algorithms, solve as much of a scrambled cube as you can intuitively, create a new method, try to solve in unorthodox ways, and see what works. Back when I only knew a basic solution method, I explored the mathematical and intuitive aspects of the Rubik's Cube, and I think it's given me a much better 'feel' for the way the Cube works than I would otherwise.

Nowadays, a lot of people are specifically interested in speedcubing, and for that it's not a good idea to figure out your own solution, since if you use any algorithms at all (and virtually all solutions do) you wouldn't really be able to optimize them yourself. It's much faster to start with a solution that's already proven to be good. However, the advice of the above paragraph still holds.

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Puzzle Solving Service! - a puzzle that has never been scrambled and solved has been wasted.


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 Post subject: solving on one's own dime
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:55 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
Although I learned to solve my puzzles from others (for the purposes of speedcubing), I've recently found much enjoyment in developing new solving methods for puzzles. I've thought of about half a dozen different ways to solve the 5x5x5, for instance.

I don't think it's necessary to start by developing your own solution, but I believe that it would be good for anyone to spend time playing around with the Cube, even if they already know a solution. This is especially important if you use an algorithm-based method (Fridrich). Try to develop your own algorithms, solve as much of a scrambled cube as you can intuitively, create a new method, try to solve in unorthodox ways, and see what works.


I agree that someone who didn't solve it on their own can gain quite a lot in understanding it. The point however is that the kids who I have seen solve it on their own believe in themselves afterwards. Figuring out something that is intrinsically complex lets someone know that they are capable in a way that nothing else supplies.

It's sad that Stefan feels that he didn't get that. He should realise that he is capable, nonetheless.

qqwref wrote:
Back when I only knew a basic solution method, I explored the mathematical and intuitive aspects of the Rubik's Cube, and I think it's given me a much better 'feel' for the way the Cube works than I would otherwise.


If that really was true I don't think you would have written the next paragraph.

qqwref wrote:
Nowadays, a lot of people are specifically interested in speedcubing, and for that it's not a good idea to figure out your own solution, since if you use any algorithms at all (and virtually all solutions do) you wouldn't really be able to optimize them yourself.


I disagree. I've already optimized several hundred algorithms.
For a comparison of optimizations I'll put most of my CLL ELL algorithms up against any set of solutions to the same problems that you can find. And some of those optimals you find might well trace back to me.

qqwref wrote:
It's much faster to start with a solution that's already proven to be good. However, the advice of the above paragraph still holds.


What's faster? Comprehension? When I started I got below 30 seconds within a few months, not much different from some people just memorizing.
And I'm not in a rush. I'm enjoying myself.

Cheers,

David J


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:00 pm 
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is it good to solve a square one by yourself the first time. i dont think i'll be able to...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:01 am 
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It's good to solve any puzzle on your own at least the first time. That's what this whole thread is saying. Keep trying.

_________________
PLL 15/21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve-Drdc8HMg
OLD NAME : Kid_with_teh_mohawk
pb 22.19
pb avg
27.61 = 26.74, 26.69, 26.98, 23.16, 26.14, 24.63, 23.71, (22.19), 30.41, (35.42), 34.97, 32.69


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 Post subject: Re: solving on one's own dime
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:27 pm 
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David J wrote:
I disagree. I've already optimized several hundred algorithms.
For a comparison of optimizations I'll put most of my CLL ELL algorithms up against any set of solutions to the same problems that you can find. And some of those optimals you find might well trace back to me.


I didn't mean to say that it's impossible to optimize an algorithm, but rather that if you figure everything out yourself there is a good chance that you miss a faster algorithm. It's faster (both in terms of time spent figuring out the method and in terms of turning time) to look up algorithms that other people have already optimized. In the early 1980s, you really had to solve the Cube with your own method, but nowadays so much is known about the Cube's solutions that, if you want to be extremely fast, it is not necessary to reinvent the wheel, especially if you like the approach of an existing solution.

David J wrote:
What's faster? Comprehension? When I started I got below 30 seconds within a few months, not much different from some people just memorizing.
And I'm not in a rush. I'm enjoying myself.


Well, it's probably faster to learn a simple method than to come up with one yourself, even if it isn't better in the long run. For example, my brother wanted to learn how to solve the Cube, and I was able to give him a solution that he could learn in just a few hours. This isn't the best way to learn how to solve the Cube, but he didn't really have the time to figure it out completely himself.

Because of the speed at which cubing events progress these days I think there's more pressure to learn to solve the Cube quickly (both in terms of the time taken to learn a method and in terms of the time for a single solve). There's a lot more pressure and a lot more impatience than 25 years ago. There are benefits to figuring things out yourself, but it's harder to spend a month figuring out a fast solution than it was 25 years ago, just like it's harder to spend a week reading a difficult novel than it was 50 or 100 years ago. It's not always a good thing, but times change...

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Puzzle Solving Service! - a puzzle that has never been scrambled and solved has been wasted.


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 Post subject: Re: solving on one's own dime
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:07 pm 
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qqwref wrote:
For example, my brother wanted to learn how to solve the Cube, and I was able to give him a solution that he could learn in just a few hours. This isn't the best way to learn how to solve the Cube, but he didn't really have the time to figure it out completely himself.


Because he's like 90 and has cancer and doctor says he'll die in a week? Or why else?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:36 am 
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Hi :)

People have different perspectives. Some just want to "solve the darn thing". Others like me, stefan, david and so on ... we like to understand the puzzles we pursue. But i don't think it's our job to force one particular view on anyone else. If they not willing or able to do the hard work themselves i don't see anything wrong in being led up the garden path ... And besides, i do believe there is no contradiction in memorising some method first and gain deeper understanding later.

Just my thoughts ....

-Per :solved:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:16 am 
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I couldn't figure it out myself, or at least I gave up too quick. When I learned a method from someone, I suddenly was able to figure out a lot more myself cause I understood more of the puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: solving on one's own dime
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:23 am 
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Stefan wrote:
Because he's like 90 and has cancer and doctor says he'll die in a week? Or why else?


Because one of his friends asked him to solve a cube, so he had one night to learn.

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Puzzle Solving Service! - a puzzle that has never been scrambled and solved has been wasted.


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 Post subject: Re: solving on one's own dime
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:23 am 
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qqwref wrote:
Stefan wrote:
Because he's like 90 and has cancer and doctor says he'll die in a week? Or why else?


Because one of his friends asked him to solve a cube, so he had one night to learn.


Aha, peer pressure... isn't that a beautiful thing...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:01 am 
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I could never have solved the cube on my own. This is simply due to the fact that I could never understand how to think when solving the cube. Now that I am more experienced, the LBL method is quite trivial, and very easy to understand.

If you are like me and can't figure it out on your own, then go find yourself a intuitive method. If there is somebody who wants to learn to cube, I point them toward the petrus method, since 2/3 of it is pure intuition.

It also drives me crazy when people are learning Fridrich and say something like, "Well, I've gotten about 20 algs down so far...". I learned the F2L intuitively, and that meant that I was just throwing stuff together as I went along for every single solve. I didn't even bother to could the possible cases, because using 3 basic rules the F2L can be solved quite easily.

If there is a puzzle that I cannot solve on my own, I generally ask for advice, rather than find a solution. I asked Pembo for advice on the 5x5, and then I went and solved it that same night. I usually just need to be told how to think about the solution, and BOOM, there it is. :)

As for David and Stefan, I bow to your sucsess at figuring the cube out on your own. I never could have done it.

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