Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:58 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:10 pm
I would like to learn some patterns that I've been thinking of but do not have the skill to come up with efficient algs for them on the 3x3. Is there a program that will do this for me efficiently? I suspect this type of question has been asked before but I'm having trouble finding words that will bring up search results.

Thanks in advance for any input and sorry if this isn't the right place, I'm New here

_________________
My budding baby blog, Twisted Interests!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:03 am
Location: Koblenz, Germany
Try this:
http://www.roobik.com/cgi-bin/rubix/rubix.cgi
or this:
http://kociemba.org/cube.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
TheCubingKyle wrote:
I would like to learn some patterns [...] efficient algs for them on the 3x3. Is there a program that will do this for me efficiently?

The Rubik's Cube has received an absolutely ridiculous amount of analysis and programming over the years. You should check out "Cube Explorer" which I think is still the state-of-the-art for computation related to the 3x3x3.

I've written a much more generic but much less powerful "standard form commutator" analysis that can handle most twisty puzzles. My program isn't user-friendly though and needs a lot more work before it could be considered fast. If you have specific commutator questions related to various twist puzzles I can probably use my program to answer them for you.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:57 am
Location: In my study drooling over my puzzle hoard - Precioussssss!
bmenrigh wrote:
I've written a much more generic but much less powerful "standard form commutator" analysis that can handle most twisty puzzles. My program isn't user-friendly though and needs a lot more work before it could be considered fast.

Brandon,

Your program couldn't be any worse than Ksolve! I've been trying to fathom that for nearly 6 months now and have singularly failed. If your program is Mac friendly then I'd love to have a look/try with it.

_________________
Kevin
Hopelessly addicted to puzzles!! :oops:
Visit my blog: Puzzlemad


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:30 pm
Location: bay area, california
Ksolve is the best! :) sorry, Kevin!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:10 pm
bmenrigh wrote:
I've written a much more generic but much less powerful "standard form commutator" analysis that can handle most twisty puzzles. My program isn't user-friendly though and needs a lot more work before it could be considered fast. If you have specific commutator questions related to various twist puzzles I can probably use my program to answer them for you.


I'm familiar with your channel and your commutators But I was looking for something that would potentially give me the optimal move count to reach a pattern.

Also I looked at a CubeSolver information page of some sort and I think it said anything over ten moves could take 40 hours, unless I completely misunderstood the table

_________________
My budding baby blog, Twisted Interests!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
TheCubingKyle wrote:
I was looking for something that would potentially give me the optimal move count to reach a pattern.

Also I looked at a CubeSolver information page of some sort and I think it said anything over ten moves could take 40 hours, unless I completely misunderstood the table

You should give it a try. The "huge optimal solver" usually finds a optimal sequence very quickly and proving that it's optimal usually doesn't take too long.

Edit: assuming you're on 64bit Windows, also check out "Ultrahuge Optimal Solver (special version)":

Quote:
I also have a special version Cube Explorer 5.01s available, which uses more than 2 GB of RAM for the huge optimal solver tables. It is about 15 times faster than the standard optimal solver and optimally solves a random cube in less than two minutes on average on a 3 GHz Pentium 4 machine.

That can be gotten at http://kociemba.org/cube501s.zip

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:10 pm
bmenrigh wrote:
assuming you're on 64bit Windows, also check out "Ultrahuge Optimal Solver (special version)":


I am on 64 but does OS matter? I just got Windows 8 and some things act up with it.
Also, How do you pronounce your name? I pronounce it as "Bee-men-rye"

_________________
My budding baby blog, Twisted Interests!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
TheCubingKyle wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
assuming you're on 64bit Windows, also check out "Ultrahuge Optimal Solver (special version)":


I am on 64 but does OS matter? I just got Windows 8 and some things act up with it.

You need a 64bit OS to address more than 4GB of memory. In Windows the limit is actually 2GB (or 3GB with a special setting) due to a very poor engineering decision made by Microsoft many years ago. The Ultahuge Optimal Solver uses a pruning table that needs almost 3GB of memory.

TheCubingKyle wrote:
Also, How do you pronounce your name? I pronounce it as "Bee-men-rye"
I really should get my username changed. Hopefully you see "bmenrigh" and think "Brandon".

My full name is "Brandon Michael Enright" and "bmenrigh" is a (currently) globally unique, Unix-friendly username. I almost never pronounce my username, I just think of it as an atomic identifier and I read it visually all at once like it were a symbol. Back when I did mentally pronounce it, I said "bee em en rye".

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:57 am
Location: In my study drooling over my puzzle hoard - Precioussssss!
Erm! Brandon, any chance of any more info on your generic commutator software?

Despite Derek's friendship and insistence that Ksolve is great, I can't understand it so I'm hoping for a hint of a possibility of an alternative! :oops:

_________________
Kevin
Hopelessly addicted to puzzles!! :oops:
Visit my blog: Puzzlemad


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Puzzlemad wrote:
Despite Derek's friendship and insistence that Ksolve is great, I can't understand it so I'm hoping for a hint of a possibility of an alternative! :oops:
My commutator software is not sharable yet. It has no documentation or user interface. The only way to control what it does is by editing the source code. It can only find sequences that conform to a very specific set of operations that conform to a move-sequence context-free grammar for commutator construction.

Ksolve is designed for a completely different problem. Check out the Ksolve 3x3.txt definition file and the 3x3test.txt scramble file. You can see that the scramble is just a single U turn. I'm not sure why it takes Ksolve 19 seconds (on my machine) to figure that out.

In short, Ksolve takes a scrambled puzzle and solves it. My program takes a puzzle definition and finds useful sequences for performing 3-cycles (and other goals) based on standard-form commutators.

Edit: also, I don't want to bash Ksolve too much because it's way more polished than my program but... Ksolve is not theoretical enough. If you take a look at the puzzle definition files, you have to spell out every detail including manually identifying orbits. My program instead works more like GAP where you define the "geometry" of the puzzle (for example, face-turning-dodecahedron) and then provide a set of piece definitions based on the geometry. The code automatically figures out the symmetries of the pieces, their orbits, their orientations, etc.

To define a puzzle with my program, you first define the geometry by making a list of grips and providing enough reorientation generators that the program can find all of the orientations for the grips. Two reorientation generators are enough for the face-turning-dodecahedron. Finding all of the orientations allows the program to know everything about geometry of the puzzle. Then you make a list of pieces using a grip bitmasks for each type of piece. This allows for exceptionally complex puzzles with very compact definitions.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:10 pm
Thanks for the help Brandon the recommended cube solver seems to potentially work well, however the majority of my grand ideas turned out to be impossible :cry:

Also, as someone who managed to make a program to calculate sales tax for the first time today, your description of your program makes my brain come out of my ear. Then again I only started learning programming 6 weeks ago

_________________
My budding baby blog, Twisted Interests!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:30 pm
Location: bay area, california
I agree that Ksolve is a pain in the butt to use - especially to configure a new puzzle... I've had to write programs (specific to each puzzle) to help me create new puzzle definitions...

I would love to see what you've come up with, Brandon! Sounds like a very interesting program.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: I'm looking for a program to generate algs
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:48 pm
Location: Italy
Hi,

I'd like to use ksolve but I have a little problem, I don't understand how the orientations are defined. For example in the 2x2x2 def file move R is:

CORNERS
1 3 6 4 2 5 7
0 2 1 0 1 2 0

Why the orientation of the piece "3" is 2 and of piece "6" is 1?

Can anyone explain me?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group